Any King Cobra Pictures out there? above photo by Richard Macon taken at Augusta March 1, 1964, USRRC race. Dave MacDonald car and Bob Holbert car in the pits.
Shelby King Cobra
Started by
Jerry Entin
, Nov 19 2005 17:39
192 replies to this topic
#1
Jerry Entin
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Posted 19 November 2005 - 17:39
Any King Cobra Pictures out there? above photo by Richard Macon taken at Augusta March 1, 1964, USRRC race. Dave MacDonald car and Bob Holbert car in the pits.
#3
Jerry Entin
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Posted 19 November 2005 - 17:53
Marko: Here is Chuck Brandt. I am trying to get these pictures for his site. Above picture is Chuck Brandt in the ex Jack Hinkle Cooper Monaco.
#4
Pedro 917
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Posted 19 November 2005 - 19:27
From Chuck's site:
Ken Miles gets a lift from Augie Pabst.
Ken Miles gets a lift from Augie Pabst.
#5
HistoricMustang
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Posted 19 November 2005 - 22:05
Personal photograph from Augusta and one from same track that appeared in Sports Car Magazine. And then Holbert and MacDonald from same track with an extra photograph of Mr. Jim Hall from Auto Sport:
Henry
Henry
#6
Jerry Entin
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Posted 19 November 2005 - 22:11
Thanks Henry: That is what we need.
#7
HistoricMustang
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Posted 20 November 2005 - 00:25
Originally posted by Jerry Entin
Thanks Henry: That is what we need.
Jerry, glad we could help. You might also be able to pick up some home grown photographs here as the site develops.
Sherry MacDonald took the time to attend our Memorial Celebration a few weeks ago and the family has high hopes for this site on Dave as they develop the information in their hands. We all know what Dave was able to do with the King Cobra.
Henry
http://www.davemacdonald.net/
#8
Manfred Cubenoggin
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Posted 08 March 2006 - 21:51
Finally, I got my new computer c/w scanner!
Jerry:
The pix attached is the Comstock Racing Cooper/Ford...aka, King Cobra...campaigned in 1964 in Canada for the Canadian Driver's Championship. The power is by 289 cid V-8 c/w four IDA Webers. Comstock's colours were refrigerator white with two broad, dark green stripes. The photo was taken by me in the paddock of Mosport just after the running of the Player's 200. The car was driven by Ludwig Heimrath and, iirc, briefly led one of the two heats. A sister car started the season with teamate, Eppie Weitzes, but it was demolished in the season opener at Westwood when it blew over at Deer's Leap and tumbled into the trees. Weitzes sustained serious injuries, particular to his legs, and was out for the season. To the best of my knowledge, the car was not rebuilt and Heimrath carried on as a solo entry for the balance of the year.
If you look very closely at the rear bonnet, about one foot forward of the estreme rear of the coachwork, you may see a seam in the bodywork. This is an indication of a small(12"x 6"), rounded rectangular-shaped removeable panel secured by two Dzus fasteners at the 12 and 6 o'clock positions and presumably gave access to the transaxle. In watching this car at speed on the back straight at Mosport, the panel, not secured at the 3 and 9 o'clock postisions, fluttered in the aero drag at a very high frequency such that the sides lifted at least a couple of inches. The air spilling over the tail was at low pressure and was sucking the panel up off the deck. This time pre-dated the spoiler craze that appeared the following year.
Further, looking closely at the bottom of the bonnet, you will see two groups of twin exhausts. This was a two-into-one grouping from each cylinder head. Now, of all the thousands of cars that I've seen...and heard...competing at Mosport for well over 40 years now, this is the one that I recall best of any of the North American V-8's used in sports cars, F5000 or CanAm. I so fondly recall spectating from corner 10 leading onto the pit straight to see Heimrath wrestle the car through the Esses and blast down pit straight, the car stuggling for grip on the not too wide or sticky tires of the period, laying rubber half-way down the straight with the car still cocked sideways and a delicious scream from the that little V-8 I shall never forget.
PS: This is my first attempt at posting an Image Shack pix. Hope it turns out OK. Gulp!
[IMG]http
Jerry:
The pix attached is the Comstock Racing Cooper/Ford...aka, King Cobra...campaigned in 1964 in Canada for the Canadian Driver's Championship. The power is by 289 cid V-8 c/w four IDA Webers. Comstock's colours were refrigerator white with two broad, dark green stripes. The photo was taken by me in the paddock of Mosport just after the running of the Player's 200. The car was driven by Ludwig Heimrath and, iirc, briefly led one of the two heats. A sister car started the season with teamate, Eppie Weitzes, but it was demolished in the season opener at Westwood when it blew over at Deer's Leap and tumbled into the trees. Weitzes sustained serious injuries, particular to his legs, and was out for the season. To the best of my knowledge, the car was not rebuilt and Heimrath carried on as a solo entry for the balance of the year.
If you look very closely at the rear bonnet, about one foot forward of the estreme rear of the coachwork, you may see a seam in the bodywork. This is an indication of a small(12"x 6"), rounded rectangular-shaped removeable panel secured by two Dzus fasteners at the 12 and 6 o'clock positions and presumably gave access to the transaxle. In watching this car at speed on the back straight at Mosport, the panel, not secured at the 3 and 9 o'clock postisions, fluttered in the aero drag at a very high frequency such that the sides lifted at least a couple of inches. The air spilling over the tail was at low pressure and was sucking the panel up off the deck. This time pre-dated the spoiler craze that appeared the following year.
Further, looking closely at the bottom of the bonnet, you will see two groups of twin exhausts. This was a two-into-one grouping from each cylinder head. Now, of all the thousands of cars that I've seen...and heard...competing at Mosport for well over 40 years now, this is the one that I recall best of any of the North American V-8's used in sports cars, F5000 or CanAm. I so fondly recall spectating from corner 10 leading onto the pit straight to see Heimrath wrestle the car through the Esses and blast down pit straight, the car stuggling for grip on the not too wide or sticky tires of the period, laying rubber half-way down the straight with the car still cocked sideways and a delicious scream from the that little V-8 I shall never forget.
PS: This is my first attempt at posting an Image Shack pix. Hope it turns out OK. Gulp!
[IMG]http
#9
Jerry Entin
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Posted 09 March 2006 - 04:11
Manfred's very nice picture. Comstock Cooper. Team run by Paul Cook.
#10
chuckbrandt
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Posted 09 March 2006 - 10:53
Yes thanks Manfred!
Pictures of the two Comstock Racing Cooper Monacos are pretty hard to come by, below is the only other picture I have of one of them. Also very interesting your description of the rear hatch and it's lifting at speed! The Shelby Cooper-Cobras have a slightly larger one (maybe 18" x 36") which they ran without sometimes. The position sounds the same though, and I can't really tell you the purpose of the hatch, it is over the transaxle.
I bet they were very interesting to listen to also! I am really looking forward to that aspect when I see hopefully several cooper monaco / king cobras this summer at the monterey historics. I'm sure the newly restored Lang Cooper will be there as well as CM 5/62 (which is ferrari v12 powered). Can't wait to hear those two singing at full speed!
Thanks again,
Chuck Brandt
Pictures of the two Comstock Racing Cooper Monacos are pretty hard to come by, below is the only other picture I have of one of them. Also very interesting your description of the rear hatch and it's lifting at speed! The Shelby Cooper-Cobras have a slightly larger one (maybe 18" x 36") which they ran without sometimes. The position sounds the same though, and I can't really tell you the purpose of the hatch, it is over the transaxle.
I bet they were very interesting to listen to also! I am really looking forward to that aspect when I see hopefully several cooper monaco / king cobras this summer at the monterey historics. I'm sure the newly restored Lang Cooper will be there as well as CM 5/62 (which is ferrari v12 powered). Can't wait to hear those two singing at full speed!
Thanks again,
Chuck Brandt
#11
tradite
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Posted 09 March 2006 - 12:57
Hello, real name King Cobra belong to the P70 built by De Tomaso, design by Peter Brock in 1964/65.
Car will be at Pebble Beach 2006 I heard.
Saluti
Car will be at Pebble Beach 2006 I heard.
Saluti
#12
MPea3
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Posted 09 March 2006 - 17:09
SpeedTV recently ran a show on Shelby and showed some nice video of the King Cobras in action. Perhaps it will be on again, it's certainly worth the watch.
One note... watching McDonald drive the thing was amazing. It's sucha shame his main claim to fame is form the Indy accident. He was obviously an incredibly talented driver.
One note... watching McDonald drive the thing was amazing. It's sucha shame his main claim to fame is form the Indy accident. He was obviously an incredibly talented driver.
#13
chuckbrandt
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Posted 09 March 2006 - 17:25
Yes no doubt Dave MacDonald had a lot of skill, "the master of oversteer" as they said.
Here is a short clip from riverside that's pretty fun to watch.
Chuck
http://www.chuckbran...m/kingcobra.wmv
Here is a short clip from riverside that's pretty fun to watch.
Chuck
http://www.chuckbran...m/kingcobra.wmv
#14
Jerry Entin
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Posted 09 March 2006 - 17:31
Dave McDonald was a very nice guy. Before he went to work for Shelby he worked at a place called CS Mead Chevrolet in Pasadena. He raced his own Corvette that he always worked on himself. His Corvette number was 00. He also raced a special version of the Corvette that was made by Max Balchowsky. You can see these pictures at tamsoldracecarsite.net It was terrible that he was killed at Indy I am sure had he lived he would have been a great driver.
#15
D-Type
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Posted 09 March 2006 - 17:38
Really? Are you sure?Originally posted by tradite
Hello, real name King Cobra belong to the P70 built by De Tomaso, design by Peter Brock in 1964/65.
Car will be at Pebble Beach 2006 I heard.
Saluti
I thought the "King Cobra" was a Cooper Monaco Type 61M modified by Shelby with a Cobra-spec Ford V8 289 cu in (4.7 litre) motor.
Can somebody who knows please clear up the question of what this thread is about?
#16
Manfred Cubenoggin
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Posted 09 March 2006 - 17:48
chuckbrandt:
Great pix of the Comstock KCobra! I wonder if this is essentially a 'before' shot of Eppie's car? I did see the 'after' photo in the Toronto Daily Star the Monday following his big shunt. Not much left that I could tell.
I dug thru my old pix and found a couple others of interest.
First, a KCobra that my note on the back of the print attributes the driving by Augie Pabst but in searching the BB here, results show him in a Lola for the 1964 running of the Player's 200 at Mosport. ??? Could this be an entry for Bob Holbert, I wonder? Did he not sport number 14 in many races? In any event, it certainly is a King Cobra.
Next, a shot of George Wintersteen's Cooper Chevy at the Player's 200 in 1965. In noting the chassis in the background, observe the typical hoop contruction of the Monaco at the engine bulkhead.
Lastly, a photo of the Cooper Chevy entry for Charlie Hayes in the 1966(edit: 1965)running of the Player's 200.
Enjoy!
Great pix of the Comstock KCobra! I wonder if this is essentially a 'before' shot of Eppie's car? I did see the 'after' photo in the Toronto Daily Star the Monday following his big shunt. Not much left that I could tell.
I dug thru my old pix and found a couple others of interest.
First, a KCobra that my note on the back of the print attributes the driving by Augie Pabst but in searching the BB here, results show him in a Lola for the 1964 running of the Player's 200 at Mosport. ??? Could this be an entry for Bob Holbert, I wonder? Did he not sport number 14 in many races? In any event, it certainly is a King Cobra.
Next, a shot of George Wintersteen's Cooper Chevy at the Player's 200 in 1965. In noting the chassis in the background, observe the typical hoop contruction of the Monaco at the engine bulkhead.
Lastly, a photo of the Cooper Chevy entry for Charlie Hayes in the 1966(edit: 1965)running of the Player's 200.
Enjoy!
#17
chuckbrandt
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Posted 09 March 2006 - 17:50
D Type - I'll answer that because Jerry Entin started this thread on my behalf. This thread is mainly concerned with the car that you described, based on the Cooper Monaco T-61M. The King Cobra name was applied to that car by the press.
Shelby used the name King Cobra for the '67 Can Am car that is something else entirely. The body was designed by Peter Brock and the chassis built in England. It's a pretty car, but I think suffered from a lack of development and some engine issues.
Chuck
Shelby used the name King Cobra for the '67 Can Am car that is something else entirely. The body was designed by Peter Brock and the chassis built in England. It's a pretty car, but I think suffered from a lack of development and some engine issues.
Chuck
#18
chuckbrandt
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Posted 09 March 2006 - 17:58
Manfred - Thanks so much again, these are great photos!
Augie did infact drive that car (#14) at Mosport June 8, 1964. He was supposed to drive a Lola for John Mecom but they had problems with the car and could not qualify. This was right after Dave MacDonald was killed at Indy and Bob Holbert retired. So Ken Miles asked Augie to drive the king cobra that day. He ended up second overall and bought a window airconditioner for his house with the prize money.
This info is from Augie's account in the Ken Miles book by Art Evans. The picture below is from the victory lap when Augie picked Ken up along the side of the track (his cobra roadster DNF'd).
Chuck
Augie did infact drive that car (#14) at Mosport June 8, 1964. He was supposed to drive a Lola for John Mecom but they had problems with the car and could not qualify. This was right after Dave MacDonald was killed at Indy and Bob Holbert retired. So Ken Miles asked Augie to drive the king cobra that day. He ended up second overall and bought a window airconditioner for his house with the prize money.
This info is from Augie's account in the Ken Miles book by Art Evans. The picture below is from the victory lap when Augie picked Ken up along the side of the track (his cobra roadster DNF'd).
Chuck
#19
Manfred Cubenoggin
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Posted 09 March 2006 - 19:04
Marvellous stuff, cb!
Well, I'm going to run out my library of Cooper shots taken at Mosport in the early-mid 1960's for reference to all. Hope you like 'em!
I was rather sloppy in sifting thru my pix and missed two more of the Wintersteen Cooper. Here they are:
From 1962, Roger Penske takes his Monaco out of the mock grid area. Not a bad shot for a 13-year old with a pin hole camera, eh?
From 1963, Dan Gurney shows with what would appear to be the same car that Roger drove the year prior. Three pix.
...and finally, Ken Mile's Cobra in the paddock at the Player's 200 in 1964.
Those were the days...
Well, I'm going to run out my library of Cooper shots taken at Mosport in the early-mid 1960's for reference to all. Hope you like 'em!
I was rather sloppy in sifting thru my pix and missed two more of the Wintersteen Cooper. Here they are:
From 1962, Roger Penske takes his Monaco out of the mock grid area. Not a bad shot for a 13-year old with a pin hole camera, eh?
From 1963, Dan Gurney shows with what would appear to be the same car that Roger drove the year prior. Three pix.
...and finally, Ken Mile's Cobra in the paddock at the Player's 200 in 1964.
Those were the days...
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#20
chuckbrandt
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Posted 09 March 2006 - 19:13
These are great Manfred! I wish I could have been there with you and seen all of this. Unfortunatley I was only a few months old in June of '64 
In support of your Wintersteen Cooper Chevy sequence here is the one shot in my stash of it.
Thanks Again!!! Chuck
In support of your Wintersteen Cooper Chevy sequence here is the one shot in my stash of it.
Thanks Again!!! Chuck
#21
Jerry Entin
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Posted 09 March 2006 - 19:19
Manfred those are terrific. Glad you had your camera with you that day. I myself don't know how to post pictures on the forum. When ever I have any I ask Pedro 917 to help me. As Chuck said this site was started so we could show people the various versions of the Cooper Monaco as it evolved into the Shelby King Cobra. Chuck was looking for any pictures taken of the car while in Nassau. Everyone has been great and thank you for coming up with these unseen photos.
#22
HistoricMustang
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Posted 10 March 2006 - 00:49
Pretty cool King Cobra photographs here:
http://www.davemacdo...cinggallery.htm
And forty years later receiving award for Dave:
Henry
http://www.davemacdo...cinggallery.htm
And forty years later receiving award for Dave:
Henry
#23
Andy Glaess
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Posted 16 March 2006 - 18:31
What we need is a book done on Macdonald. I've been in contact with his brother Doug, and Sherry Macdonald, and both are eager to see one get done. Are there any authors out there with the connections to get one published?
Thanks.
Andy Glaess
Thanks.
Andy Glaess
#24
chuckbrandt
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Posted 16 March 2006 - 18:39
Great idea. I tell you, the Ken Miles book by Art Evans is great on many levels. A big part of it is the book is full of rememberences of Ken by the people who knew him. You get to know Ken but you also get to know his contemporaries and friends.
I'd hope someone would do a similar book on Dave MacDonald, he was liked and respected by so many people I'm sure there would be no shortage of material.
Chuck
I'd hope someone would do a similar book on Dave MacDonald, he was liked and respected by so many people I'm sure there would be no shortage of material.
Chuck
#25
Manfred Cubenoggin
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Posted 16 March 2006 - 19:11
chuckbrandt:
Thanks for posting the MacDonald clip from Riverside. I copied it to my HD. It's sweet, isn't it? Actually, I have the complete 30-minute video of that race taped on VHS from one of ESPN's shows of a few years back. Can't exactly recall the title but it was probably, 'The Golden Years', with Dave DeSpain. I wasn't going to let that slip by.
Thanks for posting the MacDonald clip from Riverside. I copied it to my HD. It's sweet, isn't it? Actually, I have the complete 30-minute video of that race taped on VHS from one of ESPN's shows of a few years back. Can't exactly recall the title but it was probably, 'The Golden Years', with Dave DeSpain. I wasn't going to let that slip by.
#26
Ted Walker
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Posted 17 March 2006 - 08:47
Jerry. Apparantly the photos posted on post 2 showing the grid is NOT at Nassau,this has come from Terry O Neil whos book on the Speed Weeks is due for publication in May.There is a photo however in the book.
#27
HistoricMustang
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Posted 17 March 2006 - 10:22
Originally posted by chuckbrandt
Great idea. I tell you, the Ken Miles book by Art Evans is great on many levels. A big part of it is the book is full of rememberences of Ken by the people who knew him. You get to know Ken but you also get to know his contemporaries and friends.
I'd hope someone would do a similar book on Dave MacDonald, he was liked and respected by so many people I'm sure there would be no shortage of material.
Chuck
Chuck, check your PM's.
Henry
#28
tradite
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Posted 23 March 2006 - 08:54
Originally posted by D-Type
Really? Are you sure?
I thought the "King Cobra" was a Cooper Monaco Type 61M modified by Shelby with a Cobra-spec Ford V8 289 cu in (4.7 litre) motor.
Can somebody who knows please clear up the question of what this thread is about?
In the last interview of Peter Brock, this one clearly state that the name KING COBRA belong to the P70 Shelby De Tomaso project ( see Also Shelby Registry )
SAluti
#29
kayemod
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Posted 23 March 2006 - 10:00
Originally posted by chuckbrandt
Shelby used the name King Cobra for the '67 Can Am car that is something else entirely. The body was designed by Peter Brock and the chassis built in England. It's a pretty car, but I think suffered from a lack of development and some engine issues. Chuck
The 1967 car was a one-off that resurrected the old King Cobra name, and other than a slight visual similarity and a Ford V8 had nothing in common with the Shelby Cooper Fords. It was discussed in a thread on Bad Racing Cars or words to that effect, possibly also in one about the car's designer Len Terry. The biggest problem with this car was the suspension which was 'unusual' and fell apart in testing. Apparently now much altered, the car is still around today.
#30
chuckbrandt
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Posted 23 March 2006 - 10:55
Manfred - yes those riverside videos are fantastic! I have '63 and '64 coverage on DVD although I don't know exactly where it came from. The comentator and lively music is the same in both so I assume they were from a TV series or something. EDIT - I just found out it's from the Dick Wallen Videos.
I've been studying another dvd I got recently, it was compiled by a friend in Iowa of 8mm movies from Greenwood Roadway. Sadly I haven't found any of the cooper-fords / king cobras, but he does have great footage of the Corvette Grand Sport and the Cheetah roadster on the track.
Chuck
I've been studying another dvd I got recently, it was compiled by a friend in Iowa of 8mm movies from Greenwood Roadway. Sadly I haven't found any of the cooper-fords / king cobras, but he does have great footage of the Corvette Grand Sport and the Cheetah roadster on the track.
Chuck
#31
Manfred Cubenoggin
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Posted 23 March 2006 - 15:14
Being a Canuck myself, I'm a member of Yahoo's 'Canadian Motor Sport History Group(CMSHG). Lately, we've been discussing in this forum the fate of some wrecked cars. Apparently, Team Comstock buried Eppie Weitzes' car somewhere in Scarborough(a suburb of Toronto)and John Surtees' Lola T70 that was crashed at Mosport for the Canadian GP in 1965 is buried somewhere in Bowmanville, my old home town. I live in Oshawa now, about 10 miles west of Bville. Where's my shovel, hon?
#32
chuckbrandt
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Posted 23 March 2006 - 15:21
No kidding, heck rent a back hoe! That would be cool to find either of those cars. That reminds me of those WWII aircraft they were digging out of a glacier in greenland.
Chuck
Chuck
#33
chuckbrandt
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Posted 26 March 2006 - 14:31
Manfred (or anyone),
Do you happen to know anything about a canadian driver named Nat Adams? I have a picture of him driving a Cooper-Ford in the '66 Player's 200 race. I'm curious which specific car that is. The body is somewhat modified, so it's a little hard to tell from the picture if it is a '63 or '64 version cooper.
Thanks, Chuck
Do you happen to know anything about a canadian driver named Nat Adams? I have a picture of him driving a Cooper-Ford in the '66 Player's 200 race. I'm curious which specific car that is. The body is somewhat modified, so it's a little hard to tell from the picture if it is a '63 or '64 version cooper.
Thanks, Chuck
#34
Manfred Cubenoggin
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Posted 26 March 2006 - 22:14
Hi, chuck!
I thought that Nat's KC was an ex-Comstock car but am not positive on that. It would be natural to think that since they are both Canadian identities. However, my note the other day about Weitzes' car being burried in Toronto came from the CMSHG and there, the notice said that both were entombed!!! After reading that, my head's in a spin over Nat's car.
I saw him drive a couple of times at Mosport. Nat was a reasonable shoe and he got good performance from it but it did look a little second-hand.
I was in the paddock at one meet and standing on the left side of the KC while Nat worked on the RR corner suspension. I was inspecting the engine when suddenly, fluid started to gush from a fuel line running alongside the Webers on the left bank. I quickly called Nat's attention to this event and he dashed 'round to see for himself. He grabbed a screwdriver and tightened the nearest clamp to end the leak. So, this was the day I saved a KC from being burned to the waterline! I was so proud!
Edit: five minutes later
I just popped in to the CMSHG and there are some posts up now as to the origin of Nat's KC. Pop on over yourself, register and join the fun, chuck.
http://sports.groups...om/group/CMSHG/
I thought that Nat's KC was an ex-Comstock car but am not positive on that. It would be natural to think that since they are both Canadian identities. However, my note the other day about Weitzes' car being burried in Toronto came from the CMSHG and there, the notice said that both were entombed!!! After reading that, my head's in a spin over Nat's car.
I saw him drive a couple of times at Mosport. Nat was a reasonable shoe and he got good performance from it but it did look a little second-hand.
I was in the paddock at one meet and standing on the left side of the KC while Nat worked on the RR corner suspension. I was inspecting the engine when suddenly, fluid started to gush from a fuel line running alongside the Webers on the left bank. I quickly called Nat's attention to this event and he dashed 'round to see for himself. He grabbed a screwdriver and tightened the nearest clamp to end the leak. So, this was the day I saved a KC from being burned to the waterline! I was so proud!
Edit: five minutes later
I just popped in to the CMSHG and there are some posts up now as to the origin of Nat's KC. Pop on over yourself, register and join the fun, chuck.
http://sports.groups...om/group/CMSHG/
#35
Jerry Entin
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Posted 26 March 2006 - 22:35
Manfred did you notice any worms around Nat's car?
#36
MGAdams
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Posted 27 March 2006 - 17:44
A link to an album on the CMSHG site, both Cooper Ford liverys, Comstock and Nat Adams.
http://sports.ph.gro...tos/browse/35de
MGAdams
http://sports.ph.gro...tos/browse/35de
MGAdams
#37
chuckbrandt
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Posted 27 March 2006 - 18:01
Wow thank you! I must say the CMSHG is an exceptional resource!
Chuck Brandt
Chuck Brandt
#38
MGAdams
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Posted 27 March 2006 - 22:19
Just added 5 more Cooper photos to the album, courtesy another CMSHG member.
MGAdams
MGAdams
#39
chuckbrandt
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Posted 27 March 2006 - 23:11
Thanks again for the great pictures!
I have a feeling that the Nat Adams car is not one of the Comstock Racing cars. Most sources say both Comstock cars were totally wrecked and buried.
I think the Nat Adams car is one of the '64 Cooper Monacos, and quite possibly one of the Shelby team cars after they were sold off. I have only one piece of, admittedly thin, evidence of this. The '97 Shelby registry states that only the '64 cars had their ID tag riveted to the dashboard on the passenger side. The picture of the interior with the kids that Tom Johnson posted on the CMSHG forum clearly shows that. The Comstock cars were '63 cars, although produced late in the year. I sure wish I could zoom in close enough on that picture to see the chassis number
Thanks again for all your help,
Chuck
I have a feeling that the Nat Adams car is not one of the Comstock Racing cars. Most sources say both Comstock cars were totally wrecked and buried.
I think the Nat Adams car is one of the '64 Cooper Monacos, and quite possibly one of the Shelby team cars after they were sold off. I have only one piece of, admittedly thin, evidence of this. The '97 Shelby registry states that only the '64 cars had their ID tag riveted to the dashboard on the passenger side. The picture of the interior with the kids that Tom Johnson posted on the CMSHG forum clearly shows that. The Comstock cars were '63 cars, although produced late in the year. I sure wish I could zoom in close enough on that picture to see the chassis number
Thanks again for all your help,
Chuck
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#40
MGAdams
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- 26 posts
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New Member
Posted 28 March 2006 - 13:38
Chuck,
I am not sure if you subscribe to the CMSHG via email of posts, as only email subsribers will see the attachments. Tom re-scanned the dash plate at high resolution and I embossed as best I could and I think the last two numbers are "23", but decide for yourself. Is there a Cooper register somewhere?
MGAdams
I am not sure if you subscribe to the CMSHG via email of posts, as only email subsribers will see the attachments. Tom re-scanned the dash plate at high resolution and I embossed as best I could and I think the last two numbers are "23", but decide for yourself. Is there a Cooper register somewhere?
MGAdams
#41
chuckbrandt
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- 424 posts
- Joined: July 05
Member
Posted 28 March 2006 - 14:20
Thanks MGAdams, that is a great way to analyze the photo, thank Tom for me too.
Here is what (more or less) the blank form looks like.
Having the engine field blank is perfectly valid because all the '63 and '64 cooper monacos were provided without engine and transaxle.
The chassis list I use is from a book called Cooper Cars by Doug Nye. All the Cooper Monacos have a chassis number that is like "CM/#/2DIGITYEAR" so 23 doesn't make sense in that last spot.
The 3 is very clear so I think we need to assume it's one of the '63 cars.
Shelby had CM/1/63 and CM/3/63 as team cars and I know where they are currently.
CM/5/63 and CM/6/63 are the two Comstock cars. Also that year CM/2/63 went to W. Mitchell and CM/4/63 went to Jack Ensley.
I don't know where those last two are.
I guess it could be one of the comstock cars? I hate to light any kind of controversy but would it not be possible that Nat's car was a recreation by the talented Fejer Brothers using some pieces from the comstock cars? I honestly don't have any reason to say that other than the fact Nat was driving a Chinook later that year.
Thanks, Chuck
P.S. I'll change my settings for an e-mail list.
Here is what (more or less) the blank form looks like.
Having the engine field blank is perfectly valid because all the '63 and '64 cooper monacos were provided without engine and transaxle.
The chassis list I use is from a book called Cooper Cars by Doug Nye. All the Cooper Monacos have a chassis number that is like "CM/#/2DIGITYEAR" so 23 doesn't make sense in that last spot.
The 3 is very clear so I think we need to assume it's one of the '63 cars.
Shelby had CM/1/63 and CM/3/63 as team cars and I know where they are currently.
CM/5/63 and CM/6/63 are the two Comstock cars. Also that year CM/2/63 went to W. Mitchell and CM/4/63 went to Jack Ensley.
I don't know where those last two are.
I guess it could be one of the comstock cars? I hate to light any kind of controversy but would it not be possible that Nat's car was a recreation by the talented Fejer Brothers using some pieces from the comstock cars? I honestly don't have any reason to say that other than the fact Nat was driving a Chinook later that year.
Thanks, Chuck
P.S. I'll change my settings for an e-mail list.
#42
HistoricMustang
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- 4,489 posts
- Joined: November 03
Member
Posted 28 March 2006 - 22:57
Chuck, if it helps any Martin has performed a good job in cleaning up the King Cobra photos from Augusta.
At this point only these have come forward.
March 1964.
http://www.racingspo...3-01-photo.html
Henry
At this point only these have come forward.
March 1964.
http://www.racingspo...3-01-photo.html
Henry
#43
chuckbrandt
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- 424 posts
- Joined: July 05
Member
Posted 29 March 2006 - 12:50
I think we figured it out! The Nat Adams car is the Heimrath Comstock Car! Look at these two pictures. Note the two little louvers and the rear view mirror mount, it really has to be the same car doesn't it?
Chuck
Chuck
#44
Manfred Cubenoggin
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- 978 posts
- Joined: October 02
Member
Posted 30 March 2006 - 17:20
It would seem fairly conclusive, I'd say. Well done, chuck.
Biff
Biff
#45
chuckbrandt
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- 424 posts
- Joined: July 05
Member
Posted 30 March 2006 - 17:39
Hey Biff,
Yes, I'm convinced. Kind of exciting, rewriting history a little bit. The only other issue is that from the photo collection that same car wore #93 at some point. The early pictures of #55 show a cut back radiator opening (see above). I would think the original #55 was the car that Eppie wrecked and #93 was the second comstock car. Then after the first one was destroyed they repainted #93 to be the #55 car that we see Ludwig driving above.
Chuck
Yes, I'm convinced. Kind of exciting, rewriting history a little bit. The only other issue is that from the photo collection that same car wore #93 at some point. The early pictures of #55 show a cut back radiator opening (see above). I would think the original #55 was the car that Eppie wrecked and #93 was the second comstock car. Then after the first one was destroyed they repainted #93 to be the #55 car that we see Ludwig driving above.
Chuck
#46
Manfred Cubenoggin
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- 978 posts
- Joined: October 02
Member
Posted 30 April 2006 - 03:21
I lied...I didn't post all of my Cooper Monaco pix afterall...
I had scanned the image below recently but had forgotten about it. It's the late Al Reading's Cooper waiting in line for the Hill Climb event at Mosport. This event was run backwards 'round the circuit starting just uptrack from Moss Corner and fnishing on the per normal pit straight. I have no spex on the car but suspect it to hold a 2-litre power plant. After scanning the image originally, I had occasion to look up Al in the local Oshawa phonebook and there was a listing. When I called, I spoke to Mrs. Reading who informed me that Al had passed away four years prior and that the Cooper had been sold off long ago to unknown buyers. Hope the image comes thru OK...I'm a little rusty at the procedure.
http://img141.images...onaco6ie.th.jpg
PS: The Mosport Hill Climb was very much a 'run what you brung' affair. Care to try to identify the car in front of Al's Cooper?
PPS: Chuck. I have several nice pix of Jack Boxtrom's Sadler taken at Mosport a couple of years back. If I can get my perfs up and running again, I'll post. I installed some new hardware(printer, multi-port USB hub)last weekend and nothing has run right since!
Edit: Bugger! That's not the image size I wanted. I wish to post the entire shot right here as per previous attempts. Hang on...
http://img141.images...ermonaco6ie.jpg
Sigh... That's still not what I was shooting for but you've at least got a decent sized image now. Full size image available via email. Enuf is enuf.
I had scanned the image below recently but had forgotten about it. It's the late Al Reading's Cooper waiting in line for the Hill Climb event at Mosport. This event was run backwards 'round the circuit starting just uptrack from Moss Corner and fnishing on the per normal pit straight. I have no spex on the car but suspect it to hold a 2-litre power plant. After scanning the image originally, I had occasion to look up Al in the local Oshawa phonebook and there was a listing. When I called, I spoke to Mrs. Reading who informed me that Al had passed away four years prior and that the Cooper had been sold off long ago to unknown buyers. Hope the image comes thru OK...I'm a little rusty at the procedure.
http://img141.images...onaco6ie.th.jpg
PS: The Mosport Hill Climb was very much a 'run what you brung' affair. Care to try to identify the car in front of Al's Cooper?
PPS: Chuck. I have several nice pix of Jack Boxtrom's Sadler taken at Mosport a couple of years back. If I can get my perfs up and running again, I'll post. I installed some new hardware(printer, multi-port USB hub)last weekend and nothing has run right since!
Edit: Bugger! That's not the image size I wanted. I wish to post the entire shot right here as per previous attempts. Hang on...
http://img141.images...ermonaco6ie.jpg
Sigh... That's still not what I was shooting for but you've at least got a decent sized image now. Full size image available via email. Enuf is enuf.
#47
chuckbrandt
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- 424 posts
- Joined: July 05
Member
Posted 30 April 2006 - 09:59
Thanks Manfred,
Please e-mail the original to chuck@chuckbrandt.com. I've seen pictures of a very similar car here. http://www.autocolle...s&tab=inventory
Chuck
Please e-mail the original to chuck@chuckbrandt.com. I've seen pictures of a very similar car here. http://www.autocolle...s&tab=inventory
Chuck
#48
Allen Brown
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- 5,540 posts
- Joined: December 00
Member
Posted 30 April 2006 - 15:06
Regarding Nat Adams Cooper-Ford, I may be able to confuse things further. The program for the October 1966 Westwood race says:
"Max Beimler ... is reported to be buying the Cooper-Ford whcih Nat Adams bought from Eppie Wietzes and rechristened the Natmobile. This is the same car that was known as the King Cobra when Wietzes piled it up at Westwood in 1964".
Now we all know that programs can get things wrong but it makes me ask why we know that this car was buried when Eppie crashed it. What is the original source for that information?
Also, regarding the pictures earlier, is it possible that the #55 and #93 had the same louvres and the same mirror? As team cars, that's not improbable is it? So maybe all those pictures show is that Adams car was one of the ex-Comstock cars, not necessarily Heimrath's.
According to the usually reliable Martin Krejci, Beimler drove a Cooper-Monaco at Davidson May 1967 so that takes the history of this car quite a bit further forward.
Allen
"Max Beimler ... is reported to be buying the Cooper-Ford whcih Nat Adams bought from Eppie Wietzes and rechristened the Natmobile. This is the same car that was known as the King Cobra when Wietzes piled it up at Westwood in 1964".
Now we all know that programs can get things wrong but it makes me ask why we know that this car was buried when Eppie crashed it. What is the original source for that information?
Also, regarding the pictures earlier, is it possible that the #55 and #93 had the same louvres and the same mirror? As team cars, that's not improbable is it? So maybe all those pictures show is that Adams car was one of the ex-Comstock cars, not necessarily Heimrath's.
According to the usually reliable Martin Krejci, Beimler drove a Cooper-Monaco at Davidson May 1967 so that takes the history of this car quite a bit further forward.
Allen
#49
chuckbrandt
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- 424 posts
- Joined: July 05
Member
Posted 30 April 2006 - 15:25
Allen,
Yes that is absolutely possible. I'm hoping Paul Cooke or Eppie Weitz can confirm some of this.
And of course bodywork can move from one car to another pretty easily too.
The scrapped and buried story has always bothered me too. I've seen pictures of the wreck and it definitely balled up, but it's still hard to believe nothing was reused somewhere.
Chuck
Yes that is absolutely possible. I'm hoping Paul Cooke or Eppie Weitz can confirm some of this.
And of course bodywork can move from one car to another pretty easily too.
The scrapped and buried story has always bothered me too. I've seen pictures of the wreck and it definitely balled up, but it's still hard to believe nothing was reused somewhere.
Chuck
#50
Hse289
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- 665 posts
- Joined: May 03
Member
Posted 01 May 2006 - 09:23
Hi guys, whilst on the subject of King Cobras, i would like to make a request please. Im a big fan of Ken Miles racing career and have found out that he raced a King Cobra at Pensacola U.S.R.R.C. race on April 5th 1964. I would love to see a picture of him behind the wheel.
This car had a little drawing painted on the side, of a snapped tree and the words Teddy Treebagger in reference to his accident at Sebring. Thank you, Paul.
This car had a little drawing painted on the side, of a snapped tree and the words Teddy Treebagger in reference to his accident at Sebring. Thank you, Paul.
![[IMG]http](http://img469.imageshack.us/my.php?image=comstockkcobra6ku.jpg){kind=link}
