Fiat S76 (merged)

Those Thornycroft cars do not seem to have been very thick on the ground here, Martin. When I was working at Goroke in far western Vic in 1964 I was told of a "De Dion"just over the South Australian border. When I saw it it was nothing like a De Dion, being a big 2 cylinder T-head with low tension ignition mechanical "spark plugs"such as I had never seen before. I cant remenber how I got it loaded and home; but probably used a borrowed trailer behind the 1927 Cadillac. When Ken Moss from Sydney saw it, he told me that John Riley from Newcastle was restoring one and needed bits. So I gave it all to a couple of people who were down from Newcastle, and they took it back on his behalf. He ran the car in the 1970 International Rally with his boyfriend. It was maroon, with a high-back body; and it had no top at the time. I never received a word of thanks for the spare engine; and some years later I learned that he had lost interest in old cars and had vanished into the Sydney social under-culture. I understand the parts dealer Tony Nunan from Sydney had one of these too, but I never saw it.
I do know rather better the 1918 special S Series Stutz Bearcat that Kidman bought for his daughter and son-in-law on the occasion of their wedding. In 1936 their son and one of his pals had been staying at the old Victoria Coffee Palace (as it then was). In the short distance between there and Swanson Street, according to what Ian Smith was told, its terminal velocity was sufficient to completely derail a passing cable tram. Ian has owned the car since the late 1950's, but was only able to restore it when he was able to aquire a slightly later G series engine with identical crankcase. The engine was apparenty a special one which has a long stroke crankshaft. Standard dimensions for these later 4 cylinder Stutz were 4 3/8"by 6", but this one has a six and a half inch stroke. It is the first of the monoblock 4 valve per cylinder engines, but these did not perhaps havd quite as good breathing as the later detacheable head version as shown above.
Ian probably knew more about odd and interesting cars than any one else and where they were or had been when I first went to the VDC about 1960. Probably 20 years ago, he and Leonie visited for lunch and to look around the workshops and storeage on their way to visit a relative; and I asked further questions about things he had told me many years before, (as you do). About a fortnight later he phoned. I did not realise that he had a very serious accident in a Volvo or something, and much of his detail memory had abandonned him. After their visit and our extensive conversation, most of it mysteriously re-connected.
Please do post that account in Italian. Unfortunately we no longer have Ruggiero Gianinni to do technical translation, but we do have another friend who could when he returns from a holiday in Italy in a month.
There are probably a lot of folklore tales about Sir Sidney Kidmen, undoubtedly most of them contrived; and which have no use here.

Greetings Ivan., Its great reviewing old times, and enjoyed running my memories of Arthur Langs and Bob Chamberlins' 'drop dead' lift of the gear from me back in ???the1950/60's.....
For the unwashed Ivan and myself have been giving and swapping 'stuff' for maybe 40 odd years....
My Name is John Ryder of Coonabarabran in NW NSW Australia....about 200 miles south west of Armidale, and thus about 300 clicks from the Queensland border..( where God lives)...
One day Arthur dropped in to see what was new in his Gardner powered F series Ford...after the usual cuppas it was off up the back to check out the Minervas/DISSDelarge/prince Henrys 30/98s Sunbeams P1 racing Fords Fiats SCAT T's and the like ( I did not have the DHK Stutz then not the King V8, UNIC 2cyl, or the J series Pan American (X Tom Alley)......................
As you can guess this takes a while and after lunch returned to the fray..
I had recenty returned from a 'tanquarn explorator'up about the Border somewhere east of Texas maybe..and had retreaved a set of giant Rudge wire wheels, maybe with hubs and a strange chassis with maybe a steeringbox and the usual odds and sods hanging from one bolt..also a pile of tin (body panels) and one good set of drivers side 'guards' ( like gull wings I've always remembred) and a wonky cowl.........make unknown.....
We had just got past the1907 DEASY ( just Deasy) which I still need the rear third of a chassis and springs for when Arthur clapshis eyes on the new pile....it did not take him long to say I have a Deasy chassis down home I'll trade for this stuff.....I recall telling him I'd only just got it and had yet to do an ID..this didn't seem to bother him and he shortly after departed saying, the usual 'see you in a while down the track which could mean one month or ten years.....
On the next morning but one he was back at the front gate with a chassis poking up over the cab and a stranger as well....this turns out to be Bob Chamberlin, who immediatly did his 'impress the yokels' bit by running in tight circles waving his hands in the air ( good view of Omegas/gold chains etc. and farting a few times) this is common pratice with accountants/solicitors/small company directors and charlitans generally.........so.
Arthur drove up the back and by the time I'd shut the gate ( young children/dogs) and walked up the say 400 yards ,he had the chassis off and was manhandling the new pile.....I said I was not happy with the chassis which with one eye could be seen to belong to a Siddley Deasy etc and was far to heavy..Arthur said words to the effect 'that when your ready I'll come up and we'll split the chassis and take out a couple of inches ( along it)..
And thus to this day I wait..Bob was to present me with a set of 80m Rudge wheels for my 24hp' Sunbeam, again still waiting.....Upon reflection I doubt that Arthur could have drove from here to his home loaded the Deasy (truck I call it still lying where it fell) eaten slept picked up Bob C and returned, a round trip of atleast 2000 miles as the crow flies.. I feel he rang Bob C from here before he left for the next town , say Gilgandra/Dubbo and while he was driving up had a camp......so the load was slipped over in climbes Bob C and herethey were.....
Off to Mexico ( Victoria) they shoot, and I waited and waited and as they have both been turned in, will go on waiting.......................
The gent I traded the wheels from would not show me a car that was covered in his shed and had a load of early bikes and a brass T Ford up in the rafters, he lived on a corner with his shed behind opening out to the other street, and his son was something to do with houses, either an electrical contractor or the like.......don't we retain garbage, tho believe its all there, the problem is one of recall......
The stuff was never heard of again, as a lot of gear was about, and the 'cockies' ( farmers) were only just cracking into oxy and elect welding, the great carnage was just about to begin...
Years ago, thank God I stuffed away a few Maroubra raceing Fords and located Norman "WIZARD" SMiths 'boy racer' from the late teens/early 20's which uses what cost nothing and was at hand...its powered by a Golden Belknap and Swartz 4cyl flat head, I wonder if I'll live long enough...??

AND AND AND.....now that I have you attention..!!!....I hope.. When Tom Alley approached Harry Miller for 'something hot enough to take on the Duesenbergs he had been driving'....the 4cyl OHC Miller engine was born..( see the Miller Dynasty pages 38/39 ) circa 1916......I have read that 7 were fitted with this engine.....on the front axle of my PAN AMERICAN is J-05.......thus it is #5 of the first 'J' series cars built........no one knows or will admitt to knowing any other Pan Americans...even the Indy Museum doesn't have one........I have tried ( Hemmings etc) to locate a Miller OHC cyl.
without sucess.................... also desp. need anything on the 2cyl UNIC, esp..tech, info...Engine was originally fitted with internal points........now a Bosch ...

CAN YOU HELP.......???????.......please....

years ago I found a Sunbeam 12/16 Coupe racing engine here in OZ, which the not so famious Bill Sanderson ( another saga) delivered into the BUILT UP coupe in ..................(words fail me tho not often) a museum in Albion......
I lost track at 40 cars that some vital 'bit' was missing off.....Ivan I'm sure would double this, not to mention Stuart et al.....thus the 'pures' demand for Thornies and the like, leave us ineffable...
I find it most offensive when I read the jawless's exposays of " another car returns home to a better life".........." saved from Australia"........"rescued for a better home"........ad nausium.....
I guess the penpushers are paid by the inch, and in fact deserve quiet a few inches in the place that will do the most good.....
I'd love to hear from Duncan and wish him al the best thrills poss......and Ps.... when did Fiat start useing electrics..... John Ryder.. alies Kingjohnv8...( King v8 casting date June 1914..)....
I'm left handed so your going to have to live with my diction.......

A great intro, John...

There's been comments here about 'Australian Rust' in the recent past, I hope all of yours survived the recent heavy rains, though I know you're too far up the hill to worry about floods.

Welcome to the forum, may you and Ivan expound great stories for a long time to come. I hope I'm soon in a position to drop in and see some of your greater prizes, I gather the stuff in the yard you showed me last time I was there is only the longer term projects?

Welcome John, such an entertaining debut post I can't recall.

[quote name='David Shaw' date='Jan 6 2010, 19:51' post='4066464']
Welcome John, such an entertaining debut post I can't reca


Hi Dave, and thank you....I have not been swamped by offers of OHC 4cyl. Miller engines...I mention this only because ,as it sometimes happens.. everyone else supposes that someone else has done so.......No they havn't...
I gave the last of my 6cyl. FIAT stuff to Ivan a while back, (set of springs etc) tho still have an 'interesting' Italian chassis, front and rear end.. the only info on it is on both rear hub castings at the spring perch....which looks like three peaks ( Hills??) and in the bottom bar, the famous citys name MILANO.....diff shell is steel, the centre is alloy..it originally ran Dunlop centrelock wires and the rearhubs ( only ) has finned brakes.....I scan the Miller Dynasty pretty often ( a sort of visual injection) and NOTE it has what can only be describedas the IDENTICAL front ends used in the Miller cars........I recall some time ago much debate about the Mercer chassis that might have be converted Duesenberg and was in fact a Pan American....The problem being, as with S76.. a welter of info that was/has never been drawn together..When I get the know how and am over a small ( I hope ) (eye) problem..I'll get a pictute of it posted, maybe someone will ID same...Maybe Nazzaro/Bianchi/Scat/etc.....KR..John Ryder ( Kingjohnv8)

[quote name='David Shaw' date='Jan 6 2010, 19:51' post='4066464']
Welcome John, such an entertaining debut post I can't reca


Hi Dave, and thank you....I have not been swamped by offers of OHC 4cyl. Miller engines...I mention this only because ,as it sometimes happens.. everyone else supposes that someone else has done so.......No they havn't...
I gave the last of my 6cyl. FIAT stuff to Ivan a while back, (set of springs etc) tho still have an 'interesting' Italian chassis, front and rear end.. the only info on it is on both rear hub castings at the spring perch....which looks like three peaks ( Hills??) and in the bottom bar, the famous citys name MILANO.....diff shell is steel, the centre is alloy..it originally ran Dunlop centrelock wires and the rearhubs ( only ) has finned brakes.....I scan the Miller Dynasty pretty often ( a sort of visual injection) and NOTE it has what can only be describedas the IDENTICAL front ends used in the Miller cars........I recall some time ago much debate about the Mercer chassis that might have be converted Duesenberg and was in fact a Pan American....The problem being, as with S76.. a welter of info that was/has never been drawn together..When I get the know how and am over a small ( I hope ) (eye) problem..I'll get a pictute of it posted, maybe someone will ID same...Maybe Nazzaro/Bianchi/Scat/etc.....KR..John Ryder ( Kingjohnv8)

Posted on behalf of Marticelli...

I know many will enjoy reading this stuff:

Thanks for that, Ray. I did take the trouble to send Duncan a message to say I was planning to have his article posted and would he have any objections, but so far he hasn't responded. I think its a good article however, and from the pictures you can see different bodies were fitted to the two cars, most obvious difference being the louvres on the bonnet sides.

I am afraid that I am very sceptical that it was ever here. If it was from Mexico or south western USA I could believe that, because one car went there.

Ivan

After Eldridge had finished with Mephistopheles, he sold it to "Le Champion", a frenchman by all accounts. He had little success with the car, and decided to sell it. I believe that he had the car shipped "down under" to try and find a buyer - there is a picture somewhere of the car being driven by Le Champion through the streets of Adelaide (still in its Montlhery guise, altough with the exhaust pipe remounted).

If one "big F.I.A.T." made it all the way down there, why not two?

Regards
Alex Williams

As L C G M Le Champion's real name was Gary Le Masurier, I don't think he was French. The surname fits, but have you ever heard of a Frenchman named Gary?

have you ever heard of a Frenchman named Gary?

Ehmm, yes, I have.
Gary Chalandon

Originally posted by eldridge
.....If one "big F.I.A.T." made it all the way down there, why not two?

Well, that's the whole purpose of this thread...

Nobody is doubting the first one came here, but what we're asking is for more details about the S76. It's been published and also posted on this thread that there is proof that prove it was here... what is it?

There's some pretty heavy collections of knowledge about this kind of car and about early motoring and motor sport in Australia behind a lot of the posts here... and none of those people know anything about this story. Others are reading the thread and not posting, but still asking the same questions.

Does Australian history not matter at all?

As L C G M Le Champion's real name was Gary Le Masurier, I don't think he was French. The surname fits, but have you ever heard of a Frenchman named Gary?

Le Masurier or Le Messurier there is an old established family owned timber merchant by that name here in adelaide, Mestopholies was here in adelaide ? tell more, photos ?

i know there was a Grand Prix Miller here for a number of years, i dont think any one disputes old race cars coming here

At the risk of going off thread, I'd like to say that the presence of le Mesurier and Mephistopheles was widely reported, in dailies and monthlies, during its Australian sojourn - though we are short of some details (le 'Champion' was hospitalised, for an addiction, during his stay). There are pictures of it in Sydney, outside the local FIAT dealership, but I doubt it went to Adelaide. There is also mention, of recent date, that le C had relatives in Australia, but no details were given.

The suggestion that a FIAT S76 came here, and remained incognito for two generations, isn't easy to accept.

David Manson, Sydney.

Ivan

After Eldridge had finished with Mephistopheles, he sold it to "Le Champion", a frenchman by all accounts. He had little success with the car, and decided to sell it. I believe that he had the car shipped "down under" to try and find a buyer - there is a picture somewhere of the car being driven by Le Champion through the streets of Adelaide (still in its Montlhery guise, altough with the exhaust pipe remounted).

If one "big F.I.A.T." made it all the way down there, why not two?

Regards
Alex Williams

The only written material in my references tells nothing of Mephistopheles visiting Australia, (except in non-automotive guise, in creation of a Trojan Horse to undermine peoples'rights in the legal system in the late 1980's). From what David has written, its presence here is definitely established; though this would not have been a very auspicious place to seek a buyer. Where would you want to drive something like that, with its performance potential and very extended and certainly flexible chassis, let alone an S76, where the driver would have no idea when he was about to drop a left wheel in a gutter or pothole. The 90Mile beach in Victoria might seem promising until you tried to drive on it; and Sydney is built in billy goat country with the road network (before the toll roads) devised by an intoxicated, left-handed oriental engineer by the name of Ah Sup. Lake Ayre as used by Donald Campbell was not really accessible by car back then; even if it was not being a lake as sometimes happens. If anyone wanted to set a new inter-capital record, except for Sydney-Melbourne, it was largerly a case of "pick your track and mark it" in the 1920's. When Eric Scott and Captain Andrew Lang tried for the Adelaide-Melbourne record in 1923 in the Roamer Duesenberg that I own, they ran out of tyres about Mortlake, having blown the 5th of 8 experimental Dunlops that Harry James had provided for them, according to what Sir Eric Scott told me. He also told me that in breaking the Broken Hill- Adelaide record, they had to stop for scores of gates. (Andrew Lang, incidentally, was the man who flew a DeHavilland open cockpit plane in January 1919 to an altitude of 30.5000 ft in 68 minutes. The co-pilot was still unconscious when he landed. He was also the un-intended fulfillment of the Cargo Cult in New Guinea when he landed his flying boat on the river among people and their prophet who had never seen white men before.) Earlier, in 1912, Francis Birtles (look him up in Google- pages from Australia,) drove for the first time from Perth to Sydney without roads. He used a light single cylinder Brush, with wooden axles and chassis. It was economical, they could push if they needed; and presumably they could make a new axle or part of a chassis if they had to. Birtles was a tough pioneer: By 1912 he had cycled twice around Australia!!
It was tough driving early on once you got out of town; and a big car had to be tough. The big Napiers came here, and some road racing cars like Mercedes and Benz, and Cagno's 1907 Itala. But Mephistpheles and S76 had no suitable track or road.
I am told that Duncan is a nice bloke with enery and obsession with huge engines in light motor cars. Let us hope he will soon give us the full and correct story of his chassis and transmission. In his continuing silence more people will come to believe that he has done a remarkable job creating a replica from the drawings. It is no good repeating concocted stories, because this forum is one of truth, not fiction.
Dead men can repute nothing, but unfortunately their friends can.

I'm afraid I haven't got anything to add to the authenticity debate but I had a go at painting one in full flight...

I don't live far from Duncan - I'm hoping that at some point I might get a chance to draw his car.

Lovely picture SMarjoram, which really seems to capture the madness of it all. If only it had been found in an art collection in the outback, or if Ern Malley had written a poem about it, then we'd know it was all genuine!! Those who don't know about Ern Malley are encouraged to read all about him in Michael Heyward's excellent book, 'The Ern Malley Affair'...

... if Ern Malley had written a poem about it, then we'd know it was all genuine!!

PERFECT!

[quote name='Ivan Saxton' date='Jan 11 2010, 12:31' post='4073887']
The only written material in my references tells nothing of Mephistopheles visiting Australia,

Bill Boddy in his excellent book 'Aero-engined Racing Cars at Brooklands', in his history of Mephistopheles states: "There was an interlude during Le Champion's ownership of the car when he took it to out to Australia, possibly to race at the Maoubra track. He kept the car in the showrooms of Garrats Ltd, at 173 Elizabeth Street, Sydney, from where he could, and probably did, drive it to the new track, a matter of two hours in those days."

There is also a very nice picture of the car outside the showroom in the street in Sydney on page 86 of the book.

Paul Gregory

Slow trip...

Even in the twenties, Maroubra Speedway was connected to the city by the wide and (probably) fast Anzac Parade, I'd reckon half an hour would be more than plenty for that drive, even with a quick cut lunch along the way. It's only ten kilometres.

A SPEEDY CAR.

Considerable interest is being evinced in the first appearance of the monster Fiat racing car, which Mr L. C. le Champion, the English racing motorist, has brought to Australia, and which is expected st Maroubra very shortly. The car, in the hands of its original owner, Mr. E. A. D. Eldridge, of Brook- lands and Montlhery, France, established many records, and is claimed to be capable of a speed of 150 miles an hour.

Sydney Morning Herald, Friday 15 January 1926

http://newspapers.nl...t#pstart1216870

If one "big F.I.A.T." made it all the way down there, why not two?

Regards
Alex Williams

..or three, or even four?

It seems sufficiently established that Mephisopheles made it to Sydney, and possibly even Maroubra - but Adelaide?
We need to find a newspaper reference to that effect, such as the one above .

And still I wait for some information which might convince me that the Big Brown Land Down Under had at one time an S76 within its shores.

I think it unlikely that such a newspaper item will turn up...

Several people, John Medley and Brian Lear included, have spent endless hours tracking through newspapers in public libraries over the past few decades and anything worth recording would have been noted by now.

I think that whatever the truth, the finished machine is going to be fantastic and I can't wait to see it finished !

I had an enjoyable and fascinating chat today with Duncan Pittaway at the VSCC meeting at Mallory Park where he was racing his familiar Monarch in the Edwardian race and the Vintage race too. Great to watch as always.

Duncan says that he hopes to have the Fiat S76 ready in about two years time. He has spent some four and a half years building the gearbox alone but the car is making excellent progress and the engine has been running. I asked him if Fiat had been showing any commercial interest in the project and he reported that they had not but that there were two individuals in the Centro Storico Fiat who had been tremendously helpful and supportive, He also stated that, as a company, Fiat were very protective over their heritage and have previously taken legal action against some people who were trying to create something that was not genuine. Duncan mentioned at least two Alfa-Romeos that had been crushed on court orders following such action and that in the United States the would-be creator of a Fiat Tipo 806 Grand Prix car had also recently been similarly taken to court. Whether or not the cars concerned were being promoted as something they were not I do not know. However, Duncan gave the strongest possible indication that the Centro Storico were keeping a very close eye on developments and had authenticated all of the work to date. Part of this scrutiny was concerned with the original sale of the engine to Duncan but they also identified and authenticated the chassis to which the engine is now fitted. This endorsement must surely represent the definitive view on the correctness and authenticity of this vehicle.

I for one will be delighted to see this magnificent car in action. There are plans for it to meet up with Mark Walker's 200hp Darracq; just as at Saltburn in 1909!



Duncan Pittaway's 1913/1918 Monarch Special at VSCC Mallory

And, a couple of pics of the 200hp Darracq of Mark Walker.

Edited by Pullman99, 23 August 2010 - 09:41.

that in the United States the would-be creator of a Fiat Tipo 806 Grand Prix car had also recently been similarly taken to court. Whether or not the carss concerned were being promoted as something they were not I do not know.

I'd been wondering what had happened about the 806 replica. However, that doesn't quite gel with what Michael Oliver told us in this thread.

I'd been wondering what had happened about the 806 replica. However, that doesn't quite gel with what Michael Oliver told us in this thread.

Don't usually attempt to cause confusion! Just quoting information I was told today. Perhaps one of our US based members could comment further?

Perhaps one of our US based members could comment further?

Interesting that nobody has yet come forward with the requested information... Yet another unsupported assertion??!!

Marticelli

.....From On Four Wheels No76.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us


This is the Nazzaro car in 1911 ,however it is unlike the car in my post No108 (No exhurst pipes on the left hand side of the motor WHY.)

Way back in January, Ray Bell kindly posted for me (#162) a scan of a lengthy article in Italian about the S76 written by Duncan Pittaway which contained most of the known pictures of S76, (including both posted in this thread by eldougo) which support the idea that there were two such cars. I cannot recall seeing a single shot of the two posed together which would eliminate the possibility of the differences being one car heavily modified in its lifetime There are contemporary reports of an S76 being in different locations at the same time which amounts to the same thing but less convincing to a sceptic.

Slightly OT (in more thn one sense!!), I have been reading David Paine's excellent book about the Zborowskis (which I can wholeheartedly recommend) and I suppose I am surprised not to see any mention of the S76 as Count Louis Zborowski and friends had a sometimes fatal penchant for ever larger engined cars, and would have sought an S76 out had one been around at the time, pre- and post-WW1.

Let's hope Duncan's 'recreation' sees the light of day soon and that it turns out to be as effective as Mark Walker's 200HP Darracq!

Marticelli

This is the Nazzaro car in 1911 ,however it is unlike the car in my post No108 (No exhurst pipes on the left hand side of the motor WHY.)

Look again

[quote name='Ray Bell' date='Jan 9 2010, 23:00' post='4071469']
Posted on behalf of Marticelli...


This is what i was looking for BIG pipes and chamber ,Not two rectangle shape holes .Thanks Onelung. Hell that car must have been noise way above the 94 Decibels dB, they comply to today.

Hell that car must have been noise way above the 94 Decibels dB, they comply to today.

Bordino, of course, drove it like that on the road from Brooklands to Saltburn (around 250 miles) with those little stub exhausts spurting flame at passers-by. It must have severely frightened the horses.

i haven't checked this post [or forum for that matter..built a new house] for years but it still seems to me that there isn't a chain drive fiat question that george wingard can't answer or a early miller four question that buck boudeman [of golden submarine fame] couldn't handle. ....it seems though the big "fiat" continues to take shape regardless by some form of automotive stem-cell activity.....as an aside, i was recently contacted by an earnest gentleman in calif intent on recreating the 1905 ormand beach front drive christie....from what i can tell, he might just do it....cheers to all and happy holidays

.... some form of automotive stem-cell activity.....

This must rank as one of the quotes of the year. Superb
Roger Lund

Recent floods and floodwaters from the Loddon River damaged the former home of the Lion Peugeot remains mentioned in this thread. The cars, some of the memorabilia, and all of the books were saved.

In the cleanup some interesting things emerged, including
# 2 photos of the half buried Lion Peugeot chassis lying where it crashed over a steep bank nearly 50 years before. They are not good photos, and are flood damaged

# handwritten note indicating purchased by Neville Roberts from Stuart Middlehurst 1987 " for services rendered". "Known history: crashed in approximately 1927 on the Armidale- Kempsey road NSW, apparently while attempting town-to-town record" " Found by Stuart who had thought it may be an Alfonso Hispano Suiza fitted with RAF wheels" "People nearby who knew about it :John /Nora Toose
John Toose"
#handwritten letter Neville Roberts to Griffith Borgeson dated 1988 describing the Lion Peugeot and seeking further information.... including ".... the remains were stripped at the site leaving behind the chassis, block, firewall, and one wire wheel with RAF centre which is the same as that fitted to the Alfonso Hispano Suiza.... the wheelbase is approximately 3 metres... the bore is 105mm.... appears to be similar to 1907/08 models

#handwritten letter Brian Arundale( of Lochiel) mentioning payment by him to Neville Roberts for the chassis, dated 1995

This may give some of us a few more clues to pursue

Hello, Duncan lives just down the road from me and has very kindly let me spend some time drawing in his workshop. I thought you might like to see a few of the sketches - hopefully the first of many...







There's a bit more info about them on my blog. I'm not going to get drawn into any arguements about originality etc save to say the quality of the work is outstanding, I'm jolly glad that somebody is trying to rebuild it and I'm tremendously excited that I've got the chance to witness it. Hope you like them.

S74?

DCN

You've certainly captured the era there, Stefan...

Keep us updated, won't you?

Here are two more drawings. The first is of all the gearbox components laid out on the workbench...



The next image shows the rear suspension and the oak frame for the body and seats. Sorry the images aren't as clear as they might be - i haven't drawn any cars since the summer and i'm a bit rusty...



An interesting thing i saw today was how almost every part right down to individual nuts and bolts are stamped with matching pairs of numbers so that you know exactly where they belong - almost like the joints on an oak framed building. If you look closer still you can see other scribed lines and dots - showing where to cut or file to. It's great to be able to see marks made by the engineers 100 years ago - it really brought home to me how hand-crafted cars used to be compared to todays machine made ones.

great work.

Excellent drawing.

What an adventure the following of these is going to be.

Delightful images Stefan, and good to record the work as an art project. Its certainly worthy of such attention, and will be wonderful to have this sort of detail. My own Thornycroft is full of this sort of discovery, with tiny original oil pipe unions cracked and repaired nearly a century ago in the outback by wrapping with brass wire and solder. Also the final drive pinion had lost a tooth which had then been repaired with two steel pegs, as was the practice in Edwardian days. One peg had subsequently broken, jamming the diff and cracking the alloy rear cover of the axle, which had then had a crude repair patch rivetted in place. And almost every part is either stamped or cast with the drawing number and the date of the engine block pressure test is stamped on the base flange of the block. This evidence is crucial in establishing the authenticity of the car's provenance. Pictures of some of these features attached for interest...





Marticelli

OT a bit, but the most poignant engine marking I have seen is the Star of David punched into one of the inner parts of one of the pre WW2 Auto Union race cars, obviously by someone involved with its manufacture in period, which came to light when C&G were dismantling the engine. ISTR that DCN posted a telling photograph of it some time ago
Roger Lund

Yer tiz, from this thread:

Apropos of nothing at all really - other than having just rediscovered this pic - this is the most chilling thing I can recall seeing in my 40 years plus of being in thrall to racing cars: We found this -apparently hammered with a nail point - when sandblasting off the grime of decades on the carburettor body of one of the Auto Unions retrieved from Russia by Paul Karassik.



It made the short hairs on the back of the neck stand up...

What poor, brave, defiant, bastard - in what salt mine - might have hammered out this mark of defiance into this iconic symbol of the regime which was snuffing out his life????

Photo copyright: Doug Nye/GP Library

Edited by Tim Murray, 02 February 2011 - 12:52.

Here's the front axle. The swooping shape on the left arm of the chassis is a wooden former for a part which will later be made in aluminium. There are various pieces like this which can be bolted on to make the car more streamlined.

I've started a photo gallery now so you can see some of the parts in a bit more detail...

S76 Flickr Gallery

Duray at Ostende, photos dated 30 November and 3 December 1913:

http://gallica.bnf.f...8/btv1b9042131x
http://gallica.bnf.f...8/btv1b90417234
http://gallica.bnf.f...8/btv1b9042110r
http://gallica.bnf.f...8/btv1b9041562j

GREAT pics there Robert.

Duray at Ostende, photos dated 30 November and 3 December 1913:

http://gallica.bnf.f...8/btv1b9042131x
http://gallica.bnf.f...8/btv1b90417234
http://gallica.bnf.f...8/btv1b9042110r
http://gallica.bnf.f...8/btv1b9041562j

Amazing site. Interesting results if you search for fiat, le mans, grand prix, darracq, renault or cyclecar.

Been a while since anything's been posted here so here's a few recent sketches and photos...







It doesn't look that different from the previous ones but a lot has happened. Gearbox is in, wooden frame is done, various versions of bodywork have been tried etc etc. Here's a few lovely details...





Finally, here's a long shot. Anyone have any ideas on what shade of red it should have been?

Edited by smarjoram, 17 April 2012 - 10:26.