Williams simulator

A Clip of Martin Brundle in the Williams Simulator.


http://www.dailymoti...liams-simulator

That was Mark Blundell ;)

I want one myself. Does it have a phone in the cockpit? That way you could order pizza or chinese and you would never gave to get out of it. You would just piss in your pants like the big boys do it.

Originally posted by The Big Guns
That was Mark Blundell ;)

Yeah but they both lost to Mika Häkkinen.

Graphics looked bit dated, but I think it gives some idea what Mclaren have with much much more money and time spend.

You don't care too much about the graphics in any game if it is immersive enough. What is amazing about that Williams setup is how brutal and real the feedback through the wheel is, especially under braking.

It's better to waste limited resources in something else than useless graphic details...

I wonder if that simulator has every bump of the track like the McLaren one, or if this is just a smooth surface verion to learn the track layout...

Even rfactor has bumps ...

they should charge people to access it, they'd make a killing

Some of the footage was shown during ITV's coverage of the British Grand Prix. If it is true that Williams' simulator is less advanced than other teams', I'd like to see the other teams' simulators!! Although the graphics look relatively primitive, the experience itself appears very challenging.

Blundell certainly seemed to enjoy the experience.

Originally posted by micra_k10
It's better to waste limited resources in something else than useless graphic details...

agree
this isn't a video contest game. they could care less about the textures and how the light reflects 2000 shadows on the track. the feeling is important

I just post it in here since it's related:

In the middle of July McLaren sent a roadcar (undoubtedly a Mercedes) to the Valencia circuit to do many many laps round it. At the back of the car a laser measurement system was mounted which, square centimetre after square centimetre, measured each and every bump and kerbstone.

This data was then fed to the simulator in Woking. In order to get a picture as close to reality as possible two other parametres were necessary also. With GPS the track was measured accurate to a millimetre. And then the team also took a close look to video footage of an onboard camera of a Formula 3 car. Whitmarsh: "That gave a three dimensional image of the background. The drivers realistically see all the walls, the advertising boards in the distance and buildings around the circuit." Hamilton as well as Kovalainen did 120 virtual laps in the simulator.

The roadcar used by McLaren will also be driving round the Singapur track.

Ferrari carried out their simulation work at Fiat's research centre at Orbassano. "It's only a better version of a playstation", it's being said in Maranello. The simulator that is being developed in cooperation with Moog will not be ready before the end of 2009.

The only team that has a similar system to that of McLaren is Williams. Before the European GP Nakajima did 70 laps in the simulator in Grove, Rosberg 50. The Japanese managed to do a 1.37.5, in reality he was able to go nine tenths faster. Red Bull is working hard on being well equipped in this area also: their simulator should be ready in December. But Coulthard seems content without one also: "My two laps on a scooter on Wednesday before the race probably told me more than 100 laps in the simulator."

Vettel prefers an even more simple way: ''I just walked the circuit a few times. This way you collect better information than in any other way.''

BMW Sauber isn't planning on having such a simulator. In Hinwil the possibilities are there (in terms of hardware for instance) to build one but the Swiss-German team isn't going to, Theissen: "(To have one) we should at least invest a double-digit million sum of money."

Using a road car seems a slightly odd way of doing it.

http://www.iracing.c.../track.php?lc=1

Ditto with Ross, Micra, and MikeTek.

Thanks AFCA for the info. I read about lasers being used to model tracks a few months ago. Coupled with GPS, it's amazing what details can have in the track model. If the teams use their hydraulic rigs to simulate the bumps and cambers and curbs, it'd be like...orgasmic!!

until I hit a curb and my arm gets yanked off...

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Using a road car seems a slightly odd way of doing it.

http://www.iracing.c.../track.php?lc=1

Well it's probably the only way allowed and when willing to find out the position of the bumps and kerbstones it surely doesn't matter much what kind of car you're using...

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing

agree
this isn't a video contest game. they could care less about the textures and how the light reflects 2000 shadows on the track. the feeling is important

As someone who worked on GP4s graphics, and various flight simulators, from Microsofts home sim, to BAe Eurofighter Sims, I can tell you you are talking utter shite....

Of course they want the best graphics available, and they want it to look as real as possible and firms will pay big bucks to get it. You can bet over the years, that the graphics will improve, but it takes time....

Drivers use all sorts of visual info to drive, and I can assure you, 100%, that you want things to be as well lit and textured as possible....you want it to feel AND look as close to reality as possible.......thats why it is called a Simulation.....;) And they are simulating reality, not gray boxes.....

In fact, I may give some of the teams a call....

The first laser scanned track in rfactor:

http://www.bobstrack...r_scanning.aspx

Originally posted by AFCA
I just post it in here since it's related:

In the middle of July McLaren sent a roadcar (undoubtedly a Mercedes) to the Valencia circuit to do many many laps round it. At the back of the car a laser measurement system was mounted which, square centimetre after square centimetre, measured each and every bump and kerbstone.

This data was then fed to the simulator in Woking. In order to get a picture as close to reality as possible two other parametres were necessary also. With GPS the track was measured accurate to a millimetre. And then the team also took a close look to video footage of an onboard camera of a Formula 3 car. Whitmarsh: "That gave a three dimensional image of the background. The drivers realistically see all the walls, the advertising boards in the distance and buildings around the circuit." Hamilton as well as Kovalainen did 120 virtual laps in the simulator.

The roadcar used by McLaren will also be driving round the Singapur track.

Ferrari carried out their simulation work at Fiat's research centre at Orbassano. "It's only a better version of a playstation", it's being said in Maranello. The simulator that is being developed in cooperation with Moog will not be ready before the end of 2009.
The only team that has a similar system to that of McLaren is Williams. Before the European GP Nakajima did 70 laps in the simulator in Grove, Rosberg 50. Red Bull is working hard on being well equipped in this area also: their simulator should be ready in December.

BMW Sauber isn't planning on having such a simulator. In Hinwil the possibilities are there (in terms of hardware for instance) to build one but the Swiss-German team isn't going to, Theissen: "(To have one) we should at least invest a double-digit million sum of money."

I believe Mclaren also gave a few quid to an unidentified (publicly at least) GT driver who participated in the GT race at Valencia recently to get feedback on exactly how accurate their simulator model is.

Originally posted by NinjaMouse


As someone who worked on GP4s graphics, and various flight simulators, from Microsofts home sim, to BAe Eurofighter Sims, I can tell you you are talking utter shite....

Of course they want the best graphics available, and they want it to look as real as possible and firms will pay big bucks to get it. You can bet over the years, that the graphics will improve, but it takes time....

Drivers use all sorts of visual info to drive, and I can assure you, 100%, that you want things to be as well lit and textured as possible....you want it to feel AND look as close to reality as possible.......thats why it is called a Simulation.....;) And they are simulating reality, not gray boxes.....

In fact, I may give some of the teams a call....

LOL!

In general terms, what kind of systems are used for data capture? Williams had something on top of their car last year, I am not sure we ever found out what it was for.

Its annoying that some music is randomly played all over the top of the whole clip though.

A question for you simmers out there:

Are you less impressed with the simulators that F1 teams are using knowing that you can also just pop open rFactor or GTR with a rumble steering wheel anytime you want in the comfort of your own home?

Originally posted by pgj


LOL!

In general terms, what kind of systems are used for data capture? Williams had something on top of their car last year, I am not sure we ever found out what it was for.

Hiya

When we did GP4 we used a combination of data.

Most of the tracks had been zapped by satalite or aerial radar, and where that was not possible, a car was sent around the track with laser scanners. We did'nt capture the data ourselves, but bought it in. At that time, not all tracks had been properly scanned/zapped, hence the mixed data sources.

As for building the environment outside the armco barrier......we used photos for reference, lots of them....we sent the Artist building the track and a photographer to every race week/weekend of the 2001 season...and they generaly took about 3-5000 photos of the track and surrounding buildings, trees, stands, adverts, porta toilets, hotels, casinos, hot dog stands......etc......

Then it was a case of "building gray boxes", making sure they were in the right place, then a case of taking apart the photos, and using them as textures on the gray boxes.....

Bit more to it than that, but thats the general idea.....

Originally posted by Bos
A question for you simmers out there:

Are you less impressed with the simulators that F1 teams are using knowing that you can also just pop open rFactor or GTR with a rumble steering wheel anytime you want in the comfort of your own home?

I'd love to have a go on their sims, just for the above mentioned "feel" of sitting in a real cockpit.....

What I'd really like to know or have confirmed, is what games the Drivers themselves have played in the past or present......we heard Rumours at Microprose that several drivers were using GP3 and GP4 to learn/practice the tracks..this was before teams had their own sims.......must say, it did fill us with some pride....

I think Montoya was one who used GP4..and maybe Button?.......I would love to know what they think of the various games available to us "normal" people.... ......

NinjaMouse , what do you think of F1 on PS3?

I would be interested to hear.

I've got F1 on PS3 and graphics are amazing, it's hard to imagine them being any better or more realistic, I've owned most of the GP series over its life and played various versions of f1 games and i can't think of much better.

Driving physics is another subject, but for grpahics i would vote F1 on PS3.

For me the PS3 had great graphics, for about 10 minutes. It was a nice touch on a test day that the rising sun can blind you in some corners, but the driving was so awful I didn't care about how it looked, I just stopped playing. :


People are still playing GPL with only minor graphics updates.

Haven't Williams had their simulator for a few years? At one point I thought it was the most advanced simulators of it's type in F1. Guess this was in the days when they had plenty of money but I'm surprised there are only two teams with such kit.

Originally posted by NinjaMouse


Hiya

When we did GP4 we used a combination of data.

Most of the tracks had been zapped by satalite or aerial radar, and where that was not possible, a car was sent around the track with laser scanners. We did'nt capture the data ourselves, but bought it in. At that time, not all tracks had been properly scanned/zapped, hence the mixed data sources.

As for building the environment outside the armco barrier......we used photos for reference, lots of them....we sent the Artist building the track and a photographer to every race week/weekend of the 2001 season...and they generaly took about 3-5000 photos of the track and surrounding buildings, trees, stands, adverts, porta toilets, hotels, casinos, hot dog stands......etc......

Then it was a case of "building gray boxes", making sure they were in the right place, then a case of taking apart the photos, and using them as textures on the gray boxes.....

Bit more to it than that, but thats the general idea.....

Very cool. Wish I had your resources

I used arial photographs and took aver 1000 photos of my own and all the spare time from over a year of my life to create, in 3ds Max (before the days of Bob's Track Builder, unfortunately!), a realistic sim circuit of my home town of Hitchin. Originally made when it was F12k2, and now converted for rFactor, F1C, GTR, GPL etc. Hitchin Race Circuit

Originally posted by Perigee

Very cool. Wish I had your resources

I used arial photographs and took aver 1000 photos of my own and all the spare time from over a year of my life to create, in 3ds Max (before the days of Bob's Track Builder, unfortunately!) a realistic sim circuit of my home town of Hitchin. Originally made when it was F12k2, and now converted for rFactor, F1C, GTR, GPL etc. Hitchin Race Circuit

You are in hitchin? Small world I'm in Stevenage...

Originally posted by Mika Mika


You are in hitchin? Small world I'm in Stevenage...

Well, you know how us Hitchin folk look down on Stevenage then.

It has crossed my mind to do a Stevenage circuit, and think, given it's road layout it would be ideal for Lewis to do a demo (in the real Stevenage!) there if/when he wins the WDC. Potential for a GP too perhaps? Love to see them diving* through the Gunnels Wood Road/6 Hills Way "tunnel"!!


*yes, that's 'diving', not 'driving'

Originally posted by Perigee

Well, you know how us Hitchin folk look down on Stevenage then.

It has crossed my mind to do a Stevenage circuit, and think, given it's road layout it would be ideal for Lewis to do a demo (in the real Stevenage!) there if/when he wins the WDC. Potential for a GP too perhaps? Love to see them diving* through the Gunnels Wood Road/6 Hills Way "tunnel"!!


*yes, that's 'diving', not 'driving'

Well after being in Stevenage for a little while now I can see where he gets his driving ability from, all these roundabouts.

Originally posted by peroa
Even rfactor has bumps ...

But not "proper" bumps...

Check out I-RACING. This has EVERY REAL bump, laser scanned track surface!

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld



People are still playing GPL with only minor graphics updates.

I quit that back in 2002, ranked No7 in the world at GPLrank at that time. The best was "over" then, I made a brief comeback for a few weeks in 2005 and the scene was totally gone really...I think all "serious" racing finished in GPL during 2003. It's mostly some socially defunct people playing now, same names in the chat room from 1999 (i checked a few weeks back)

These guys need a life.

Great challenge GPL. Mostly people play the 65 mod etc thesedays, online anyways.

Kudos to you sir - i tried and tried and tried GPL till my wheel literally fell to bits and to do a lap without spinning or going off i thought was an immense acheivement!!!

I tried the mods and still never really grasped what the secret was to good lap times. GP4 on the other hand, well i still faff with that, and despite its seemingly buggy release, i think its still the best F1 game ever, Me and my m8 challenge each other to see who can lap fastest rather than race as the AI is rather lame i think until you get to the hardest level when its nearly impossible! But with a wheel and a rubber glove under the brake pedal its astonishing how much you can improve and where you can find time in GP4. A total classic, and it still looks good today

Not sure what that trick was, but it came naturally

Had to be honed though, through hours of practice.

Never got into GP4, I used to play Grand Prix and Grand Prix 2, they were REAL ground breakers!

Originally posted by Perigee

Very cool. Wish I had your resources

I used arial photographs and took aver 1000 photos of my own and all the spare time from over a year of my life to create, in 3ds Max (before the days of Bob's Track Builder, unfortunately!), a realistic sim circuit of my home town of Hitchin. Originally made when it was F12k2, and now converted for rFactor, F1C, GTR, GPL etc. Hitchin Race Circuit

Hi Perigee

That looks really good. And there aint' nothing wrong with 3D Max... lol. ...... It's professional looking, what do you do for a living?

.

Originally posted by snx843
Not sure what that trick was, but it came naturally

Had to be honed though, through hours of practice.

Never got into GP4, I used to play Grand Prix and Grand Prix 2, they were REAL ground breakers!

Yeah I loved playing Grand Prix and GP2- got quite good at GP2 and ended up playing it online, getting a couple of wins in the smaller leagues and a 4th places in a bigger one. When GP3 came out however I just couldn't master it. In GP2 I used to load on quite a lot of front wing compared to the rear and braked and turned in at the same time, while driving as smoothly as possible- it didn't quite work with the lower mechanical grip of GP3.

New videos, with the Singapore track:




Add &fmt=18 to the address to get better quality video.

Originally posted by Bos
A question for you simmers out there:

Are you less impressed with the simulators that F1 teams are using knowing that you can also just pop open rFactor or GTR with a rumble steering wheel anytime you want in the comfort of your own home?

Yes. Not because one can play them anytime but because playing them has learned a lot about limits of virtuality and also knowing what commercial simulation games are capable of when attached to some commercially available motion platform like this, so "it's used by F1 team!" doesn't alone do the trick.

I'd really like to learn more about software and physics simulation side of this Williams sim. But I guess that goes little bit too much to the top secret zone. :

Originally posted by NinjaMouse
I think Montoya was one who used GP4..and maybe Button?.......I would love to know what they think of the various games available to us "normal" people.... ......

Giving a game to a real life driver (doesn't need to be a F1 driver) and then asking "tell me how realistic it is" is a bit useless. If that real life driver has never ever played any other racing game (thus has very little experience of them), he has nothing to compare and is unaware of the standards. So simply realistic graphics might do the trick and could be enough to say it is the most realistic and best game they've ever played... and possibly the only one. Real driver is so used the butt feel, G-forces and all, that adapting to a virtual game without this feel is hard and it needs time. Different games and lots of time to adapt would be the way to go.

But there are lots of amateur or even professional drivers already playing/training with these sim games, asking them could be a lot more valuable since they already have the experience with games. But not with F1 cars though...

Originally posted by Meanstreak
But there are lots of amateur or even professional drivers already playing/training with these sim games, asking them could be a lot more valuable since they already have the experience with games. But not with F1 cars though...

http://tinyurl.com/47e8lj

Villeneuve is very active in iRacing at the moment.

When Jacques Villeneuve drove the M5 taxi around the Nordshlieffe, he said he practiced on his Playstation, GT4, which has the circuit.

When he got about halfway round the track, driving pretty quickly but not flat out on his first circuit, he turned to the journalist with him, and said that he did not know the rest of the track ... because he always had crashed at this spot ... he said that when he crashes, he'd just start again! The journo said he gained a bit of apprehension when he realised that not only did Jacques not know any of the rest of the track, but he didn't seem to be slowing down at all ...

Originally posted by Lukin83


http://tinyurl.com/47e8lj

Totally forgot this... I believe that is not ID theft because I also remember some rumours about him playing Richard Burns Rally, as he is very much into rallying in real life too.

Originally posted by NinjaMouse


I'd love to have a go on their sims, just for the above mentioned "feel" of sitting in a real cockpit.....

What I'd really like to know or have confirmed, is what games the Drivers themselves have played in the past or present......we heard Rumours at Microprose that several drivers were using GP3 and GP4 to learn/practice the tracks..this was before teams had their own sims.......must say, it did fill us with some pride....

I think Montoya was one who used GP4..and maybe Button?.......I would love to know what they think of the various games available to us "normal" people.... ......

Montoya and Villeneuve mentioned in the past they liked Grand Prix Legends, GP2 and rFactor.

Villeneuve is nowadays racing online every couple of days you can meet him at iRacing, aswell as some other Pro's like Scott Speed, Justin Wilson, AJ Allmendinger, Dale Earnhardt Jr., Martin Truex Jr., Brad Keselowski, Joao Barbosa, Alex Gurney, Michael McDowell, Paul Edwards, Ricky Taylor, Thomas Scheckter, Ross Bentley...

I had some races with some of the Pro's in recent weeks, it's really nice

http://iracing.com/intro.html

I searched for "simulator" word from Autosport web archive, some bits...

Short conclusion: Honda has a simulator, Red Bull has one too but Toro Rosso does not apparently use it.

Button: "I have spent some time on our simulator at the factory this week to familiarise myself as much as possible with the track layout before we get there."

Barrichello: "I have driven the circuit on our simulator which gives you a good idea of how the lap will be laid out and the braking points, however it doesn't give you any projection of how it is going to be racing under the lights!"

Brawn: "To prepare for the new track, both our drivers have been working on the simulator at our Brackley headquarters which assists with learning the track layout, gears and downforce levels."

September 22nd 2008, http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/70773

Also:

Button: "We have a simulator at our UK base, as do most teams, and spending a lot of time on that has been vital in terms of learning the circuit. With a simulator, you're not getting the complete feeling of the car but you are gaining understanding of the distances and the braking points, so it's very useful."

August 15th 2008, http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/69793

Vettel: "We have no simulator so there is no chance to simulate."

August 24th 2008, http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/70026

Heidfeld: "We don't have a simulator like other teams do, but we have some on paper so I can see speeds, braking, and gears, things like that so we can look at the profile," he told autosport.com. "I will try and get some footage and I've already seen something on the internet." "It helps a bit, I think walking the circuit, driving it, and watching the footage is better (than a simulator) as it gives you a rough idea."

Red Bull Racing's Mark Webber will try the circuit in a computer simulator, but doesn't expect it to give him a full picture of what to expect. "We've got a few things we do, simulators are a way to get your head around the track and then you calibrate all that into what we do," he told autosport.com.

August 19th 2008, http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/69885

Q. Is the Williams simulator helpful?
Nakajima: Yes it is good enough to learn the tracks.

Q. Are you situated in a cockpit when you use it?
Nakajima: Yes kind of, but we haven't got simulated g-force and the car doesn't move but the steering input is quite realistic.

Q. Do you spend a lot of time in it?
Nakajima: Yes. To learn a track especially. We can also practice my driving which is quite useful and we can try set-up changes and things.

Q. Does Nico use it as well?
Nakajima: Yes I think so but maybe not as much as me, because I live close to the factory so it is easy for me to go there. I go whenever I have the time but recently I have been quite busy!

Q. Is it physically or mentally tiring?
Nakajima: It is more of a mental thing, but the steering can be hard after a while.

Q. Is it true that some drivers get carsick when they use simulators?
Nakajima: Yes some drivers do suffer from motion sickness. You basically sit in a dark room with a big screen in front of you. It's no problem for me though.

February 27th 2008, http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/65340

Q: Lewis, a brand new circuit for you. Have you walked around it and principally have you tried it on the simulator?
Hamilton: It's my first... I literally got here to the track an hour ago and I've not yet had the time to walk it, but I will do after this and no, I've not been on the simulator.

Q: Would the simulator help?
Hamitlon: If it did I would have done it.

Q: So you don't really feel it's that much of a help.
Hamilton: I think the first computer game that I played, the first race was Brazil, so I have an idea where it goes and it's always one of my favourites, most of the time the end of season race and so I have a really good idea of where the corners are and I'm looking forward to getting out there.

October 18th 2007, http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/63395

Also interesting answer from Lewis...

Q: Will you use the McLaren simulator to prepare for the race in Brazil?
Hamilton: "There are no plans to use it but can if I want to."

Q: Why would you not use it?
Hamilton: "I only use it if I come into the McLaren Technology Centre for development work on the car. I don’t really gain an advantage physically or mentally from it. I’ve played Brazil many times on the Playstation. I play it with my brother and I’ve always won!"

October 2007, http://www.f1technical.net/news/7388

Originally posted by Meanstreak
Honda has a simulator

Honda is building a new one, the on they have now is obsolete.

Red Bull's new one will soon be finished.

I raced Montoya in GPL back in 2000. Guy Wilson (VROC/server software runner) arranged a private race at Monza, a few of the best drivers were invited. Montoya sucked to be honest not a patch on the "gpl pro's"...I didn't even see or race him, as I qualified on the front two rows and he was well down

Told he played regulary online at VROC. However only let Guy into the secret.

Originally posted by AFCA
Red Bull's new one will soon be finished.

http://www.paddockta...ticle&sid=59290

But not this one?

From what the drivers are saying, it sounds like that apart from getting to know the track (which any PC game can do now) simulators are a waste of time.

Originally posted by Meanstreak

http://www.paddockta...ticle&sid=59290

But not this one?

I do think it's that one (the infrastructure is already there but they'll be starting to use it in December), the report fasly writes the system would have been operational at the end of 2007. You never get to build and use a high tech, McLaren-alike simulator in only a few months time. Ferrari will only get theirs at the earliest in December 2009/January 2010 I guess.

Originally posted by ZooL
From what the drivers are saying, it sounds like that apart from getting to know the track (which any PC game can do now) simulators are a waste of time.

Thats just ignorance. I doubt they will teach a "pro" anything, but they can teach you all the skills required to be a "pro".

You can learn a great deal about your strengths and weaknesses too, in full GP length races. Train your concentration, learn race-craft, tyre management. etc.

All of great value. I'd not expect one to teach at F1 driver anything though. Bar they are useful coming from shorter GP2 length races to full GP format, as concentrating for 30mins and then 1hr 30mins is a BIG jump, and just like muscles, minds also need training when going from sprint to marathon distances. Also enables setup and mechanical learning for less experienced drivers.