The Maserati 151#002 of Maserati France
#51
Posted 30 June 2008 - 22:02
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#52
Posted 30 June 2008 - 22:11
Remember, in the mid-1950s they were entering a full works team with top level Grand Prix drivers, and during that period, they never got a single car to the finish. The two 1950s finishers were private entries.
Then, the Camoradi effort, though probably under-financed, was works backed and they never made it to the end, either.
It took Briggs Cunningham's efforts to finally get a top 6 finish - ONE!
This may be straying from the topic a bit and don't get me wrong, I LOVE Maseratis. No-one is more disappointed than I at their woeful Le Mans record.
#53
Posted 30 June 2008 - 23:06
Maserati's record at Le Mans is pretty dismal. I don't think it had to do with any lack of money, more with bad luck, the fact that the 4-bangers in the 1960 Birdcages weren't endurance material, that the overheating V12's were too experimental and that Dallara's rear suspension used on the early Tipo 151's a nightmare. As for later Tipo 151s, one entry does not give you any reasonable odds to survive 24 hours, no matter how fast the car is.
As for the numbers, in 1961:
- of 11 Ferraris entered, 4 finished [a survival rate of 36%]
- of 5 Porsches entered, 2 finished [a rate of 40%]
- of 4 Maseratis entered, 2 finished [a rate of 50%]
Above by Willem Oosthoek: There are books avaliable David. Willemoosthoek@aol.com
#54
Posted 01 July 2008 - 07:12
Originally posted by Bjørn Kjer
Sorry Barry but I really dont see what you are after. Please start from post 46 ,I feel you are a bit off topic. But let me add that Ferrari f.ex. had 107 starts to Maseratis 26 ! And with no wins for Maserati statistically seen 4 times the entries to match Ferrari still wont give any wins ! So much for records and statistics , my point however was that less money COULD give less preparation and less development and thus less reliability which certainly has been the case many times at Maserati IMO! Seldom was it a lack of speed !
It is a matter of record that Maserati were under resourced - pulling out of GP racing in 57, constant changes in ownership, and the frequent running of prime Maserati entries by private teams such as Temple Buell, Col Simone etc and not the factory
The cars were often well designed and engineered but poorly tested and developed and the nature of the failures often look like poor preparation
It certainly looks like availability of money and results are linked in this period as it is also clear that the cars had the performance - a privateer team running third after five hours of LeMans against factory teams! - its a shame that they couldnt get the results that the car deserved
#55
Posted 01 July 2008 - 07:28
#56
Posted 01 July 2008 - 07:31
#57
Posted 01 July 2008 - 14:22
As for changes in ownership, the owners did not change at all in the period that Maseratis appeared at Le Mans: 1954 to 1965.
As for lack of funds, up to 1958 Maserati had more money to spend on racing than Ferrari, thanks to the company's diversified industrial activities.
The highest finish was accomplished in 1961 by a private entrant who lacked no money.
The main reason Maserati failed at Le Mans was bad luck and the numbers game. You can't win if you don't enter enough cars.
all research Willem Oosthoek
#58
Posted 01 July 2008 - 15:03
Originally posted by Jerry Entin
Willem speaks again: Temple Buell at Le Mans? When did that happen?
As for changes in ownership, the owners did not change at all in the period that Maseratis appeared at Le Mans: 1954 to 1965.
As for lack of funds, up to 1958 Maserati had more money to spend on racing than Ferrari, thanks to the company's diversified industrial activities.
The highest finish was accomplished in 1961 by a private entrant who lacked no money.
The main reason Maserati failed at Le Mans was bad luck and the numbers game. You can't win if you don't enter enough cars.
all research Willem Oosthoek
Temple Buell in the US ran the last 250Fs - 1958 - GP cars - not sure who said they ran at Le Mans?
Maserati had frequent changes in ownership from pre war years to the present day
They might or might not have had more money to spend on racing - but it seems clear that they did not spend it on racing
A private entrant is not really any match for a full factory team
The numbers game also depends on the failure rate - this was high - mainly down to poor prep due to lack of resources
#59
Posted 01 July 2008 - 15:31
Such as Tyrrell Racing Organisation against March Engineering in 1970?Originally posted by driverider
A private entrant is not really any match for a full factory team
Or Scuderia Achille Varzi against Officine Alfieri M. in 1949?
Or RRC Walker Racing against Cooper Cars in 1958, and against Team Lotus in 1960/1?
Don't get me started on American Racing here...
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#60
Posted 01 July 2008 - 15:55
#61
Posted 01 July 2008 - 16:11
I think it's high time you grew up, Bjørn.
#62
Posted 01 July 2008 - 16:15
Originally posted by Bjørn Kjer
It is very easy not to "start" anything here .....just look at the title of this thread .
It is easy to get blown off topic - maybe it warrants another thread
The question I asked was about personal experiences of the 151 #002
#63
Posted 01 July 2008 - 16:20
Originally posted by fines
Hmm, the last dozen or so posts in this thread were not about "The Maserati 151#002 of Maserati France", so are you proposing to open a new thread for this latest turn of discussions? Oh no, I recall, every time a new thread is opened you cry wolf and send the poster back to pre school figuratively, for not having searched the nine-year back catalogue of this BB! Rats!
I think it's high time you grew up, Bjørn.
I never understand why people have to personalise these dicussions
There is a discussion going on about the 151 and the broader issue of maserati's resource base in this period - in so much as it is relevant to the 151 - can we just stay on topic and try and develop understanding?
#64
Posted 01 July 2008 - 16:48
If you want to see some colour of this car in 1963 I have used two from Le Mans 1963 in Sports Car Racing in Camera 1960-69, one profile shot and one head on in the pits with appropriate persons.
I also used a 1964 Le Mans pic but this is probably familiar to many.
#65
Posted 01 July 2008 - 17:44
Ferrari did have eleven starters, but only three were the 3-litre V12s which were the main hope for victory. One was a V6 2.4-litre and the others GTs which weren't serious contenders for an outright win, except perhaps the Moss/Hill car. In fact, it could be argued that Ferrari were risking unreliability by spreading their resources too thinly; even the privateers often received some measure of works support. There was also the Grand Prix programme. In the next few years Ferrari were often accused of neglecting GP racing until Le Mans was over, but I don't think you can say that of 1961.
Of course, Hill and Gendebien would probably have cruised to an easy victory if two Mexican children had done as they were told and respected their elders and better
#66
Posted 01 July 2008 - 18:06
Le Mans Maserati (early '60s) 16/1-01
Maseratis 19/1-01
Maserati Tipo 151 replica? 13/4-02
Maserati 151 14/12-02
Maserati Tipo 151, chassis 006 1/5-05
Maserati Tipo 151 :"The last monster from Modena" 15/11-05
the dates referring to the thread starts. I belive there are some good additional infos here!
#67
Posted 01 July 2008 - 19:17
Sorry mates!
#68
Posted 01 July 2008 - 22:42
350S in the Mille Miglia, 450S, Tipo 61, Tipo 63 ....
But they were all magnificent beasts
#69
Posted 02 July 2008 - 06:41
Originally posted by Paul Parker
No self promotion intended.
If you want to see some colour of this car in 1963 I have used two from Le Mans 1963 in Sports Car Racing in Camera 1960-69, one profile shot and one head on in the pits with appropriate persons.
I also used a 1964 Le Mans pic but this is probably familiar to many.
Has anyone a colour picture from 1965 ?
#70
Posted 02 July 2008 - 14:34
Why not try Michel Bollee, he is very helpful and might know somebody who has a colour image or two. The 151 book he did with Willem Oosthoek has only b/w of the fateful weekend.
Good luck.
#71
Posted 02 July 2008 - 15:47
Originally posted by Paul Parker
No self promotion intended.
..... in Sports Car Racing in Camera 1960-69, .....
Great book!
When may we add:
Sports Car Racing in Camera 1960-69 II
on our book shelves????
#72
Posted 02 July 2008 - 16:17
Sports Car Racing in Camera 1970-79 arriving shortly and I must give credit for the assistance of the TNF regulars and their knowledge of all things old and arcane.
Thanks again!
#73
Posted 03 July 2008 - 07:36
To driverider :I have yet to see colour pictures of the white one , except from scale models !
To Arjan : I can only add as to his suggestion of a II 60-69 book (Paul !)
And to Paul : I (we) look forward to that , it being about the last period of sports cars before rules take over and make them lookalikes (?). I hope it will be a seller , so that you can ..............
#74
Posted 03 July 2008 - 09:46
#75
Posted 03 July 2008 - 11:15
Must have been a hell of an experience !
#76
Posted 06 July 2008 - 18:50
Once again the Maserati was hopeless…..
For fans of this period I’ll jot down the runners from my scribbled lap chart -- lap 2 to be precise
1st Roger Penske-Zerex Special (single seater)
2nd Roy Salvadori-CT Atkins Cooper T61 Maserati
3rd
18th Jimmy Blumer-Marina Rolls Royce ( who else remembers that!!??)
19th Augie Pabst-John Mecom Lola GT Chevrolet
20th
…I’d pay serious money to see that again!!
David Fox
______________________________________________________________________
David
Please tell us a bit more about Jimmy Blumer's Rolls Royce!
Rob
#77
Posted 07 July 2008 - 08:11
There are a few details in this earlier thread:Originally posted by ry6
Please tell us a bit more about Jimmy Blumer's Rolls Royce!
Rolls Royce V8 Special