Hey Bernie, why don't YOU sort out the British GP
#1
Posted 06 February 2008 - 14:39
Let's face it, his career is in its twighlight and even he isn't immortal and thus won't be with us for ever.
If BCE is the godfather of F1 and Silverstone is the home of the home of F1, then what better and more fitting legacy than for Bernie to dip into his vast pockets and provide the funding to make Silverstone THE best motorsport facility in the world?
Could even call it Ecclestone...
Anybody else think that Bernie should or even has a duty to invest in Silverstone?
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#2
Posted 06 February 2008 - 14:48
Last year also went to German , Belgium and Italian GP s , sorry but I cannot see that there Spectator facilities are as good as Silverstone and or anything else really , apart from the Tarmac , buts thats not what B E is knocking on about !!
#3
Posted 06 February 2008 - 14:53
Originally posted by BerndRos
What I would like to know is what is really wrong with Silverstone , have been going there for over 40 years and it has changed much , some good , some bad .
Last year also went to German , Belgium and Italian GP s , sorry but I cannot see that there Spectator facilities are as good as Silverstone and or anything else really , apart from the Tarmac , buts thats not what B E is knocking on about !!
Given that this comes on the back of Silverstone moving forward with their redevelopment plans, I would suggest that the real problem that Bernie has is nothing to do with the circuit or it's infrastructure. It comes down, quite simply, to how much money he can squeeze out of the deal......
#4
Posted 06 February 2008 - 14:59
#5
Posted 06 February 2008 - 15:00
Originally posted by angst
It comes down, quite simply, to how much money he can squeeze out of the deal......
Bernie just keeps squeezing until the money runs out. The BRDC would be well advised to follow Tony George's lead, and tell Bernie they're not gonna play any more.
#6
Posted 06 February 2008 - 15:00
Originally posted by BerndRos
What I would like to know is what is really wrong with Silverstone , have been going there for over 40 years and it has changed much , some good , some bad .
Last year also went to German , Belgium and Italian GP s , sorry but I cannot see that there Spectator facilities are as good as Silverstone and or anything else really , apart from the Tarmac , buts thats not what B E is knocking on about !!
I've been to Interlagos and that circuit is shocking. I was there when Rubens led for Ferrari after MS pitted and the entire grandstand got up to cheer and I am suprised it didn't fall over. It certainly swayed about 2 feet.
The entire infrastructure is terribly primative.
That said the character of the place is wonderful.
It also makes Silverstone look like a space station by comparison.
#7
Posted 06 February 2008 - 15:19
I can only hope this doesn't happen in the UK. I would rather see no British GP (although that would be a disgrace) than see BE get his grubby hands on any of my taxes. Government involvement would surely also end up in some fiasco, like the Olympics.
BE should buy Silverstone and upgrade it like Paul Ricard and the Turkish track. He can then take all it's profit, if there is any.
#8
Posted 06 February 2008 - 15:22
Now, that was 15 yrs ago, God only knows how much Bernie charges now, but he couldn't get Tom to stage another one 'cos of the cost/loss situ back then!
My guess is that Bernie will drop the British GP, and at that point, i will finally cease to bother with F1, as that is the point where it all starts to go down the CART/IRL route, and we all know what happens there, since open wheel racing in the US has been destroyed, and F1 may well disappear down the tubes.
If it does, it would be a good thing, as it could then be revived by those who actually love motorsport, have respect for it's history, and who could run a new F1 which could be cheaper for spectators, give real value for money and excitement, and still produce profits so that it is sustainable, which is clearly not how F1 is at present!
I would humbly suggest that GP2 would be a decent start point, and that the rules could allow either customer cars/engines, or build your own car and/or engine, to a rulebook that gives a clear layout, and clear race and driving rules, so that the basics were laid out, and innovation was given a chance again....oh, and i'd ban windtunnels and computer rigs that simulate race conditions....one could even place limits on team sizes, say 70 employees max?
If Bernie is left running things, and F1 is left as is, (1) the expense and complexity will just drive fans away in the end, as it is frankly, somewhat abhorrent to see such profligate waste of monies in the name of Sport, and (2) all the races will end up being held in Asia at night....which would be the end of the sport's heritage.
#9
Posted 06 February 2008 - 15:26
If the GB government or local council do not feel the prestige, extra revenue in for of taxes on money spent in and around the gp is worth the expenditure then tough, some other region in the world will.
#10
Posted 06 February 2008 - 15:29
Doug
#11
Posted 06 February 2008 - 15:31
Well, yeah, and with a business head on can you blame him? He has control of a finite resource and more bidders than he needs. Of course he can put the price up to stymie those unwilling/unable to pay.Originally posted by roadie
BE just wants money. He has figured out that in other countries he can count on the government (and therefore the tax payer) to fork over millions in the name of "tourism" and he wants the same in the UK.
The question is more why the FIA decided to hand over the rights to run the series (however it is framed) so cheaply without having some sort of sanctioning control over venues - after all the series is run to FIA auspices.
Or maybe they DO have control? I've heard before that the German, French, British, Monaco and Italian GPs are sacrosanct and HAVE to be run in those countries - look what happened when the French GP came off the calendar, it was promptly snuck back on. Then again, that might be misleading.
#12
Posted 06 February 2008 - 15:31
Originally posted by djellison
I wonder if the British based teams ( everyone except Toyota, BMW and Ferrari basically ) would get off their own backsides and organise a non-championship British GP if Bernie actually pulled the rug out from under Silverstones feet.
Doug
Without Bernie paying them? Sure
How much do they bitch when Bernie adds races to the calendar? - then the shut up as soon as theres extra money involved.
#13
Posted 06 February 2008 - 15:42
So, screw the fans, and heritage, just go for the money in some backwards country.
(This is a sarcastic post, if you haven't already guessed!)
#14
Posted 06 February 2008 - 15:42
#15
Posted 06 February 2008 - 15:43
Originally posted by BerndRos
What I would like to know is what is really wrong with Silverstone , have been going there for over 40 years and it has changed much , some good , some bad .
Last year also went to German , Belgium and Italian GP s , sorry but I cannot see that there Spectator facilities are as good as Silverstone and or anything else really , apart from the Tarmac , buts thats not what B E is knocking on about !!
His constant gripeing has nothing to do with the track, or anything on the spectator side of the fence. He couldnt give a stuff about the true fans. The only ones he cares about are the corperate masses and hangers on. He then uses them as an excuse to screw the circuit, and ultimately those of us that actually attend the race.
If Silverstone were able to meet all of his demands without going bankrupt, he would then find a whole lot more things to complain about.
The only saving grace I believe, is the fact that the majority of teams are based here, and I don't see them letting the British GP go without a fiight.
#16
Posted 06 February 2008 - 15:43
#17
Posted 06 February 2008 - 15:45
Originally posted by roadie
BE should buy Silverstone and upgrade it like Paul Ricard and the Turkish track. He can then take all it's profit, if there is any.
I think he has offered, but the BDRC don't want to sell.
#18
Posted 06 February 2008 - 15:55
#19
Posted 06 February 2008 - 15:56
Originally posted by Clatter
I think he has offered, but the BDRC don't want to sell.
That and the fact that there is very little profit to be had from actually hosting a race.
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#20
Posted 06 February 2008 - 16:29
The fact that a company which was at the time one of the worlds largest advertising / promotion agencies couldn't make money from the race, and Bernie himself chose not to take over the race promotion either would suggest to me that it's nothing more than a loss-making exercise.
I'd rather see motor racing in Britain without F1 if there is a chance that keeping the race will put the long term future of Silverstone at risk due to financial difficulties.
#21
Posted 06 February 2008 - 16:29
Originally posted by Rinehart
I've been to Interlagos and that circuit is shocking. I was there when Rubens led for Ferrari after MS pitted and the entire grandstand got up to cheer and I am suprised it didn't fall over. It certainly swayed about 2 feet.
The entire infrastructure is terribly primative.
That said the character of the place is wonderful.
It also makes Silverstone look like a space station by comparison.
No offense to our Brazilian brethren but that's what I always thought.
I mean big signs falling onto the race tracks, a small creek crossing the apex of a turn (all since sorted)
and not a peep out of Bernie.
It almost seems as though someone at BDRC called him a short little troll at some point back in the 60's
and he vowed to make them pay someday
#22
Posted 06 February 2008 - 16:40
Yeah, the major benefit is the advertising and publicity to be had by the country/region hosting. Hence the fact that governments are generally willing to put hand in pocket. Has anyone quantified what that's worth?Originally posted by kar
That and the fact that there is very little profit to be had from actually hosting a race.
#23
Posted 06 February 2008 - 16:45
I seem to remember reading that he also understood how poor a condition Interlagos is in, but is not prepared to ditch it as he feels F1 in S.America is too important to lose.
What's the conclusion? He's made F1 big by taking decisions based on finance and politics all along, and bases all of his decisions on these things rather than a set of rules which applies equally to everybody.
It certainly explains why he's had no problems ditching so many great tracks (Suzuka, even Spa for a while for goodness sake). It also explains why he seems so determined to get rid of the British GP.
Sod the fans, they'll watch anyway. But don't come crying when we find something better to do than watch a bunch of faceless engine manufacturers run around on a sod-boring sterile Tilke-odrome while all the overtaking happens in a pitlane.
#24
Posted 06 February 2008 - 16:56
If I was a British team, and I wanted to show my sponsors why they were investing in my squad, the last F1 track on earth I would take them to would be Silverstone.
It has nothing to do with the history of the place. It has nothing to do with the drivability of the track. Silverstone is close to the top of the pile in both respects.
The problems with Silverstone have been documented for a long, long time. Every year Silverstone say they will make changes and every year they fail to do so. The BRDC has no real direction and even the latest deal to develop the track has the condition that Bernie commits to the long term future of the race before any investment is made. Well I'm sorry guys, but it just doesn't work that way. Bernie's heard it all before, and it's no wonder he's losing his rag again.
The only upgrade Silverstone is currently making for 2008 is a new pitwall. Well whoopy-bloody-doo. Spa had their race taken away, and redeveloped the entire paddock, pitlane and final complex of the circuit. It's still not perfect, but at least they made an effort.
I'm sorry, but in this day and age, when countries the world over are willing to pay stupid money to get a race, Silverstone cannot afford to rest on its laurels, nor to make promises it cannot or has no intention of keeping.
Sure the pitlane is ropey and the paddock is crap, the media centre is rubbish and the facilities old. But it's not that which bothers me all that much. I do feel sorry for the fans though. There's no thought or provision put into making the experience enjoyable for them. If you think bernie's being cold in his money grabbing, then the race organisers are clearly learning much from him, as the return for your ticket price is an absolute disgrace.
In my ideal world I'd put Lord March in charge of the BRDC and see what would happen. I'm fairly sure there would be an immediate revamp of the entire ethos of the British Grand Prix weekend with an emphasis placed on fans. Lord March has seen from Goodwood, that people are still in love with racing, so long as they feel a part of it and so long as there is something put on for them. Make the race an appealing day out, and you'll get your ticket sales. Get your ticket sales and you'll get your money. Get your money and you can make your changes and pay Bernie to keep the race.
The problem as I see it lies not with Bernie. It's a simple free market situation. Some people are willing to pay WAY over the odds and pull out all the stops to make sure they get the race. Why should Bernie as a businessman pander to Silverstone's inadequacies and repeatedly broken promises?
P.S. I'm not having a go. I'm a Brit and staunchly proud of it. I love the British Grand Prix, think Silverstone is a mega track for the drivers and would hate to see the GP dropped. I'm just trying to look at this from a realistic rather than a romantic point of view.
#25
Posted 06 February 2008 - 17:25
Nail head. Hammer. Done.
#26
Posted 06 February 2008 - 17:28
So if there's no way of making a profit out of the race and making enough to invest in the track, the only way to pay Bernie's fee and revamp the circuit is for the government to step in with taxpayers money. Even as a British F1 fan there's no way I'd be in favour of that.
#27
Posted 06 February 2008 - 17:38
Originally posted by tidytracks
It has nothing to do with the history of the place. It has nothing to do with the drivability of the track. Silverstone is close to the top of the pile in both respects.
Too bad it has nothing to do with fans, either...
I'm sorry, but in this day and age, when countries the world over are willing to pay stupid money to get a race, Silverstone cannot afford to rest on its laurels, nor to make promises it cannot or has no intention of keeping.
But Silverstone or BRDG is not country. There is no way they can compete with Bahrain or Malaysia. Building huge space age facilities for Bernie would be ridiculously expensive. You cannot expect BRDC to accept massive expenses without fair return on investment.
The problem as I see it lies not with Bernie. It's a simple free market situation.
You can compare this "free market situation" to George Bush giving huge pile of tax payers money to GM, so they could sell cars 50% cheaper than any other brand. They would make even bigger losses than now, but hey...Ted the Tax Payer is always there to cover the bills. Not the kind of "free market situation" I like, that´s for sure.
#28
Posted 06 February 2008 - 17:40
Originally posted by MichaelJP
Thing is though, the British GP is pretty much a sell-out even with incredibly high priced tickets. It wouldn't matter if Lord March was in charge, he can't improve on that!
So if there's no way of making a profit out of the race and making enough to invest in the track, the only way to pay Bernie's fee and revamp the circuit is for the government to step in with taxpayers money. Even as a British F1 fan there's no way I'd be in favour of that.
Spot on
#29
Posted 06 February 2008 - 18:09
It seems it needs government money, the government will be criticised if they don't for not supporting the race, risking F1 jobs etc etc, and if they do for taking money from the poor to give to the rich. These are politicians so the most likely outcome is a fudge of some kind.
The real answer IMO is a whole new series outside the FIA, on the tracks Bernie is dumping, like Melbourne, Imola, Silverstone.
Bernie, Max....bye
#30
Posted 06 February 2008 - 18:15
That might require him to spend his own money.......................
#31
Posted 06 February 2008 - 18:21
Bernie has a duty to invest in the size of his wallet, nothing more nothing less.Originally posted by Rinehart
Anybody else think that Bernie should or even has a duty to invest in Silverstone?
#32
Posted 06 February 2008 - 19:08
Originally posted by MichaelJP
Thing is though, the British GP is pretty much a sell-out even with incredibly high priced tickets. It wouldn't matter if Lord March was in charge, he can't improve on that!
So if there's no way of making a profit out of the race and making enough to invest in the track, the only way to pay Bernie's fee and revamp the circuit is for the government to step in with taxpayers money. Even as a British F1 fan there's no way I'd be in favour of that.
Exactly. Bernie's trying to force the government to invest in the British GP and get involved. Because as soon as that happens I can see Bernie's bill for the GP mysteriously going up...
I'd rather lose the GP than that happen.
#33
Posted 06 February 2008 - 19:35
Originally posted by MichaelJP
Thing is though, the British GP is pretty much a sell-out even with incredibly high priced tickets. It wouldn't matter if Lord March was in charge, he can't improve on that!
So if there's no way of making a profit out of the race and making enough to invest in the track, the only way to pay Bernie's fee and revamp the circuit is for the government to step in with taxpayers money. Even as a British F1 fan there's no way I'd be in favour of that.
Indeed, the Goodwood festival wouldn't go very far if Lord March charged (himself) $25,000,000.00+ for the rental of the property and track for 3 days.
#34
Posted 06 February 2008 - 19:46
Originally posted by jaisli
Well, to call it his 'duty' may be going too far. It's easy enough for us to talk and presume to tell somebody else what to do with their money. But it would certainly be a 'nice' gesture to both British motor racing fans and the British motor racing industry as a whole, when one considers how incredibly wealthy Bernie has grown as a result of F1. And considering his staggering wealth, Bernie could easily revamp the entire facility, including the pits, paddock, parking fields, etc for the equivalent of what it would cost the average person to buy a new car. Probably even less. Although I suppose one could argue that Bernie didn't reach his financial position and the F1 circus didn't become the financial powerhouse it is by him showing a soft side.
I agree 100%. Given his age it's about time he dropped the used car dealer mentality that has served him so well and took a look at the legacy that rich patricians have left with their generosity.
adam
#35
Posted 06 February 2008 - 20:27
#36
Posted 07 February 2008 - 12:16
It has to be hoped that any further calamities will effect the car builders and the sponsors, to enough extent that they pulldown the curtain on Bernie's Circus, and while the initial trauma would be a shock to all, spectators included, the end result of a renewed F1 going back to it's roots in the early 60's, of small, motivated engineering outfits, with limited resources but infinite enthusiasm, would bring back those two words Grand Prix, to their former glory.
Adios Bernie,Max and Co, not forgetting Paddy McNally, and let's hope for an F1 to come that means something to the fans, the casual observer, and has some relevance to real life!
#38
Posted 07 February 2008 - 13:52
Originally posted by ensign14
Yeah, the major benefit is the advertising and publicity to be had by the country/region hosting. Hence the fact that governments are generally willing to put hand in pocket. Has anyone quantified what that's worth?
For countries like Australia and Britain that don't exactly struggle to bring in tourists? Zero imo. In fact probably the opposite. Who wants to visit a place when prices have cynically trebled and there's an artificial crowd crunch in effect? Not me definitely.
But for banana republics and authoritarian dictatorships it probably means one less 747 for them and their harem a year. That and (in their eyes) it probably helps legitimise their ridiculous regimes.
What annoys me is the thought of India spending millions of pounds on hosting an F1 race while Britain donates billions in aid to that country to help its poor... There is a sad and somewhat sickening irony to all this.
As mentioned above, Dieter Rencken (as erudite as always) in his take on the matter anyway http://www.autosport...cle.php/id/1447.
#39
Posted 07 February 2008 - 13:58
Originally posted by roadie
The Weekly Grapevine in the Journal is a good read this week regarding this issue. It seems the "credit crunch" is affecting the F1 commercial overlords...
Link
Interesting. Presumably CVC could default on the loan through circuits failing to come up with the ever increasing fee demands, falling viewing figures etc. That would lead to Royal Bank of Scotland controlling F1. And who is their most prominent ambassador? Sir Jackie Stewart:)
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#40
Posted 07 February 2008 - 13:58
Originally posted by Gilles4Ever
Grand Prix like the olympics and the world cup make money, lots of money just not in the form of direct returns for the promotors. There income generated from the services and industries around the event is massive thats why governments, councils and municipalities need to get involved.
If the GB government or local council do not feel the prestige, extra revenue in for of taxes on money spent in and around the gp is worth the expenditure then tough, some other region in the world will.
Would you care to give some figures to support this?
#41
Posted 07 February 2008 - 13:59
Originally posted by MichaelJP
Interesting. Presumably CVC could default on the loan through circuits failing to come up with the ever increasing fee demands, falling viewing figures etc. That would lead to Royal Bank of Scotland controlling F1. And who is their most prominent ambassador? Sir Jackie Stewart:)
A little bit funny that the company Sir Jackie Stewart represents is perhaps the biggest reason Britain might lose its GP...
#42
Posted 07 February 2008 - 14:07
It's a negative thing. "Wow, Malaysia can have hitek facilities for a hitek sport? What a forward-looking nation. But there's no British GP? Hm, they must be way behind."Originally posted by kar
For countries like Australia and Britain that don't exactly struggle to bring in tourists? Zero imo. In fact probably the opposite. Who wants to visit a place when prices have cynically trebled and there's an artificial crowd crunch in effect? Not me definitely.
#43
Posted 07 February 2008 - 14:19
When you perform some pretty basic financial reckoning I think I know which country comes across the brightest there.
#44
Posted 07 February 2008 - 14:29
Originally posted by roadie
The Weekly Grapevine in the Journal is a good read this week regarding this issue. It seems the "credit crunch" is affecting the F1 commercial overlords...
Link
Very true, and i really hope it bites F1, it's time racing came back to enthusiasts and left the spivs and corporations behind. As to what Kar posted, i agree, and i bet one of the reasons for Bernie wanting to dock there is because India does get so much cash aid....wonder where a lot of it will end up when the Circus comes to town? No prizes for guessing eh?
#45
Posted 07 February 2008 - 15:01
[B]
What annoys me is the thought of India spending millions of pounds on hosting an F1 race while Britain donates billions in aid to that country to help its poor...
I wouldn't say annoyed, but duly noted.
#46
Posted 11 February 2008 - 17:40
Australia, Britain, France and Belgium should follow Tony George's lead and say no to Bernie's ridiculous demands and let F1 wander off into the distance and implode on it's own greed.