Here's what Alesi had to say about it...

Originally posted by F1Johnny


Thing is we will all have different criteria for what triggers a guilty verdict. Your criteria will be far more broad and exhaustive than mine, as you are a fan of Alonso. I am not, but try to be objective and I find it difficult to find a reason for Alonso to be silent on such a serious matter. I said it earlier, it is so easy to make a simple statement. What bad will come of it? He may lose some Spanish fans, fans he shouldn't want to have IMO. I don't know, but it is very telling to me that he has chosen to remain quiet. I believe AFCA posted a quote from Trulli strongly denouncing it. I just could not sit by while my name was associated with such negative behaviour.

I don't dislike you either, far from it, and have every respect for your opinion. I also understand if you don't agree with my position. This board would not exist if we didn't disagree with each other at least sometimes.

I see your point more clearly now, we will have to agree to disagree. That said, I also wish Alonso had said something denouncing these jerks but I will not judge him based on his lack of a public position, Bean makes a good point, it may not be totally his call. Perhaps in time we will know more

Peace

Originally posted by SlateGray


I see your point more clearly now, we will have to agree to disagree. That said, I also wish Alonso had said something denouncing these jerks but I will not judge him based on his lack of a public position, Bean makes a good point, it may not be totally his call. Perhaps in time we will know more

Peace

Cool

Originally posted by wj_gibson
I am always suspicious of "serial lurkers" as I tend to think they are really just extra avatars for existing contributors who can be used to prop up a particular point of view...

I'm not someones prop, I just don't post as much as you other guys. Here is why I'm not so active on here;
1. Many of the things I have to say, are expressed already by someone else. In many cases very articulately.
2. I don't type fast as some and it would take to much of my work break. So I'm lazy.
3. Some threads can be akin to watching piranha feed on a nature doc' Some of you tear the sh*t out of each other, from behind your keyboards. At which point I switch off. I love motorsport and I really do enjoy reading some of the opinions on here, not just the ones I agree with. I like the differing perspectives, however 'some' of the contributors are just not worth engaging with. Thats just how I feel.

I just felt compelled to contribute this time. Who knows I may feel compelled on another thread after this one. You never know your luck.;)

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
And the alternative of not doing anything?

No-one's saying don't do anything.

Simply if anyone starts any **** like that again, ban them for life from all GPs.

Easy.

OK I've thought up a better idea to deter this sort of thing

Round up all the individuals involved in the questionable behaviour at Barcelona and give them community service at the track for the season. Have them sweeping up rubbish, cleaning portaloo's and polishing the paintwork on Lewis Hamilton's grid slot with their manual toothbrushes - all without being allowed to attend any races.

Originally posted by Chiara
OK I've thought up a better idea to deter this sort of thing

Round up all the individuals involved in the questionable behaviour at Barcelona and give them community service at the track for the season. Have them sweeping up rubbish, cleaning portaloo's and polishing the paintwork on Lewis Hamilton's grid slot with their manual toothbrushes - all without being allowed to attend any races.

solved.

One of the black-painted "offenders" has told his side of the story. Always good to hear both sides before making judgements.

http://www.motorspor...k_08020805.html

He explains it was a carnival costume (yes I was carnival last weekend) and that half of the people who saw them thought they were Hamilton fans. He's not a racist, their intention was not to offend anyone, and he wants to apologize to McLaren and Hamilton.

Originally posted by Suntrek
One of the black-painted "offenders" has told his side of the story. Always good to hear both sides before making judgements.

http://www.motorspor...k_08020805.html

He explains it was a carnival costume (yes I was carnival last weekend) and that half of the people who saw them thought they were Hamilton fans. He's not a racist, their intention was not to offend anyone, and he wants to apologize to McLaren and Hamilton.

I said in the locked previous thread this group would claim they are not racist.
Santiago Segurola, deputy editor of sports newspaper Marca makes some rather more salient points here:
http://www.guardian....2254862,00.html

adam

Originally posted by big x


I said in the locked previous thread this group would claim they are not racist.
Santiago Segurola, deputy editor of sports newspaper Marca makes some rather more salient points here:
http://www.guardian....2254862,00.html

adam

Thanks for the link, a very interesting read.

[I've edited this post as I subsequently posted this article in the 'MOST BIASED MEDIA' thread].

I found this article from the "One Year Ago in F1" on the front page. Interesting that Alonso had a concern and something to say about the manners of the crowd in Spain last year, yet this year he has nothing to say when the situation was so much worse.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/56651

A whole week has passed with no comment.

Originally posted by Arrows4Ever
Don't mean to start another thread that could end on a bad note...
I think this topic turned sour a few times before but I think what Alesi brings up is worth mentionning.

A corrected AltaVista translation roughly gives this:

"Joined by CKAC Sports, Jean Alesi believes that it is necessary to be very careful about the charges of racism towards Lewis Hamilton, in Spain. Alesi believes that a bunch of idiots are not the reflection of the overall Spanish people and that a simple photograph with Hamilton and Alonzo could avoid many incidents."

I also heard the excerpt on radio where he mentionned that he sees both of them(if they accept to pose together) as ambassadors for non-violence and anti-racism.

Now, is there a company already involved in F1, intelligent enough to back this opportunity and great message or could this turn into a stupid fight between McLaren and Renault sponsors?
Or how about a joint venture project anyone?

Source:

http://www.corusspor...205-704732.html

what about apologies from the British press to all the Spanish fans for calling them racists ...

Originally posted by Craneboy


what about apologies from the British press to all the Spanish fans for calling them racists ...

The British press called all the Spanish fans racist??

Originally posted by wj_gibson
The Spanish federation already did that.

It's not the Spanish federation's fans.

Originally posted by F1Johnny
I found this article from the "One Year Ago in F1" on the front page. Interesting that Alonso had a concern and something to say about the manners of the crowd in Spain last year, yet this year he has nothing to say when the situation was so much worse.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/56651

Apples and oranges that was about too many fans finding a way into the paddock/pit hence making it very difficult for Alonso and his team to do their job properly.

Originally posted by F1Johnny
A whole week has passed with no comment.

Thank God the subject has been flogged to death by the press, last thing it needs is even more attention.
Get over it, apparantly Lewis has.

Originally posted by Craneboy


what about apologies from the British press to all the Spanish fans for calling them racists ...

The press didn't say all, just some. Marca agrees...

Santiago Segurola, deputy editor of sports newspaper Marca, and Spain's most respected sports journalist, says that the events of last weekend were both particular to formula one and part of a broader problem: "Unlike many other countries, such as the UK and Germany, Spain has no history in formula one. So when [Spanish driver] Fernando Alonso came along, support for him rapidly developed from passion into a kind of fanaticism.

"This has not been helped by the press, whose support for him goes beyond the normal boundaries of journalism. In this sense, we have two novelties in conflict: these new fans, who do not have any history in the sport, and Lewis Hamilton, the first black driver."

The Spanish don't want to recognise this behaviour as racist, but that is exactly what it is, he says. It might be a minority of fans, but too many people are prepared to deny the existence of racism and "journalists often justify the unjustifiable", he adds.

Originally posted by Sébastien

Apples and oranges that was about too many fans finding a way into the paddock/pit hence making it very difficult for Alonso and his team to do their job properly.


Thank God the subject has been flogged to death by the press, last thing it needs is even more attention.
Get over it, apparantly Lewis has.

It is apples and oranges, that s why I made the distinction that this situation was so much worse than the one he felt concerned about. He goes as far as to suggest that McLaren may not come back to Jerez if it is not dealt with and that was just crowding and bad manners.

He felt so strongly about crowding and bad manners enough to comment, but not strongly enough to comment on what happened last week. The only attention it needs IMO is that of Alonso who doesn't feel it that important to comment. It doesn't show well on him.

What does Lewis getting over it have to do with my rapidly declining opinion of Alonso?

Bollocks, Alonso commented last year because the situation hampered him and his team , now there is no such thing this time around, apples and oranges Johnny.

You are flogging this dead horse to further illustrate your dislike of Alonso, now that is getting old and predictable imo hence my friendly suggestion to get over it.

BTW my opinion of the person Fernando Alonso is probably equally low as yours is, so it's not the fanboy talking believe me ;)

Originally posted by Sébastien
Bollocks, Alonso commented last year because the situation hampered him and his team , now there is no such thing this time around, apples and oranges Johnny.

You are flogging this dead horse to further illustrate your dislike of Alonso, now that is getting old and predictable imo hence my friendly suggestion to get over it.

BTW my opinion of the person Fernando Alonso is probably equally low as yours is, so it's not the fanboy talking believe me ;)

I still say him expressing concern last year and not this year highlights that it is most likely a conscious decision to not make a comment in 2008, which is something that concerns me for F1.

Maybe my declining opinion of Alonso is being confused with my genuine concern for the impact his non action could have on the behaviour of a handful of his aggressive fans.

I take your point that it may come across as my flogging a dead horse. I am clearly not a fan after his behaviour last year, but this issue transcends that and goes to a more fundamental problem in the sport, a problem which I thought he would rise above to cool and IMO do the morally right thing.

Just to be clear, it is not Alonso's fault and I am not calling him a racist.

Originally posted by F1Johnny


The British press called all the Spanish fans racist??

no ... the British press did not call all the Spanish fans racists ... they called all Spanish people racists ...

Originally posted by Craneboy


no ... the British press did not call all the Spanish fans racists ... they called all Spanish people racists ...

They did? Where?

Originally posted by big x


I said in the locked previous thread this group would claim they are not racist.
Santiago Segurola, deputy editor of sports newspaper Marca makes some rather more salient points here:
http://www.guardian....2254862,00.html

adam

Fine, I've never claimed there are no racists in Spain. I'm sure there are. As well as in Britain as in Sweden as in Germany as in France as in...(insert country of your choice here) And some of them might have found their way to Montmeló last weekend. Real, thoroughbred racists that hate Hamilton because of the colour of his skin and for no other reason. It's possible. And they should be thrown out, the sooner the better. Of course.

There is a difference between "fanatic" (I don't like that word, but for lack of better) supporters and racists however, and if one wants to ban "fanatics" we are in trouble. A lot of Tifosi will have to go as well. I'm sure others too.

The banners - as far as can be seen - in the pics from the article are not racist. They certainly bash Hamilton, but there are no references to the colour of his skin. Should we forbid them anyway? On what grounds?

The article in itself I find very good and level-headed however, giving different points of view without falling into the morally indignant pit.

Having said that, I can't help smiling a bit since dear old Marca has been bashed as the most unreliable/biased/ignorant publication imaginable on this BB, but lo and behold! - now all of a sudden Marca words are gospel...!

Originally posted by Craneboy


no ... the British press did not call all the Spanish fans racists ... they called all Spanish people racists ...

When did they do that?

Originally posted by Suntrek

Having said that, I can't help smiling a bit since dear old Marca has been bashed as the most unreliable/biased/ignorant publication imaginable on this BB, but lo and behold! - now all of a sudden Marca words are gospel...!

Not entirely fair. It's views in the past have been partisan and contrary. The reason it's used here it to show that it concurs.

Originally posted by Suntrek


The banners - as far as can be seen - in the pics from the article are not racist. They certainly bash Hamilton, but there are no references to the colour of his skin. Should we forbid them anyway? On what grounds?

I saw Max quoted, I'm fairly sure but I can't find it now, saying that he thought banners should only support drivers/teams, not bash them. Unaccustomed as I am to agreeing with Max, I do this time.

It would be much easier to enforce than any compromise, and make the races that bit more pleasant.

I think that this is a big thing about nothing. The press seem to have intermingled the fans who were holding up anti Hamilton banners, (such as ones regarding his being illegaly moved to the track by a tractor), with the absolutely tiny race related slurs by a couple of idiots.

What about Xenophobia? Why should this not be removed from Formula 1, and why is this regarded as somehow OK, as opposed to skin colour racism? If Max really wanted to stamp this out, then he would have brought up Luca Di Montezemolo on his comments regarding the "English", (note, sweeping statement about an entire nation of people".

"The English never miss a chance to demonstrate their lack of sportsmanship,"

Luca isn't just some fanboy. He is involved with F1 at the highest level, and yet nobody in the FIA has seen fit to denounce his clear xenophobia.

Originally posted by F1Johnny


When did they do that?

Craneboy putting words into other people's mouths yet again.

Originally posted by Josta
I think that this is a big thing about nothing. The press seem to have intermingled the fans who were holding up anti Hamilton banners, (such as ones regarding his being illegaly moved to the track by a tractor), with the absolutely tiny race related slurs by a couple of idiots.

What about Xenophobia? Why should this not be removed from Formula 1, and why is this regarded as somehow OK, as opposed to skin colour racism? If Max really wanted to stamp this out, then he would have brought up Luca Di Montezemolo on his comments regarding the "English", (note, sweeping statement about an entire nation of people".

"The English never miss a chance to demonstrate their lack of sportsmanship,"

Luca isn't just some fanboy. He is involved with F1 at the highest level, and yet nobody in the FIA has seen fit to denounce his clear xenophobia.

In all honesty Josta, I don't think for one second Luca is xenophobic towards the British. He has some very talented British team members within Ferrari, and he is also invited that British Photocopy Shop guy to Maranello, He is also good friends I believe with Max Mosley amongst others...who is British.

I think in his case, he was annoyed at the British Autosports Media for their favouritism (as he perceived it) towards British F1 teams in the wake of the spygate debacle. That is the context in he which made that statement.

I'm not for one second justifying his comment as fair or right or even accurate, as Luca does have a habit of going off in one to the media when it suits his cause. There is always the possibility of course that his comments were taken out of the context he meant them or have even been slightly misreported. But even so I don't think he is genuinely xenophobic, a bit gobby at times maybe....

Going back slightly if I may to the subject of the media and its role in reporting events in Barcelona.

Firstly I can appreciate how some spanish people must feel hearing that certain sections of the media (British or not) are apparantly making inaccurate and sweeping generalisations about your nation as a whole based on the behaviour of a few. But in all honesty, I wouldn't take it all that seriously. Certain sections (not all) of the media (and certain publications) are primarily about sensationalism, they have very little care for the actual facts of the matter and more concern for whether they think they can make money out of the situation.

Yes there will be some ignorant people who will take it as gospel fact, just as you would probably get in the reverse situation in Spain or anywhere else for that matter. But by and large I think most intelligent people here recognise that certain publications here you take with a liberal dose of salt. 'The Sun' being a prime example....good for wrapping fish and chips but not much else.

The mass media here has already moved on from this subject and are now sensationalising something else and blowing that out of proportion instead. So my advice is don't lose too much sleep over it.

Originally posted by undersquare


I saw Max quoted, I'm fairly sure but I can't find it now, saying that he thought banners should only support drivers/teams, not bash them. Unaccustomed as I am to agreeing with Max, I do this time.

It would be much easier to enforce than any compromise, and make the races that bit more pleasant.

What if I write "Go Alonso" and paint a little picture of a crane underneath on my banner? What to do then? Is it allowed? Forbidden? Or should it be torn apart?

I agree with you as such, of course it would be nicer with only friendly, supportive banners. The practical implications when trying to enforce such a rule would be to bite off a bit more than even Max could chew though, I think.

Originally posted by Suntrek


What if I write "Go Alonso" and paint a little picture of a crane underneath on my banner? What to do then? Is it allowed? Forbidden? Or should it be torn apart?

I agree with you as such, of course it would be nicer with only friendly, supportive banners. The practical implications when trying to enforce such a rule would be to bite off a bit more than even Max could chew though, I think.

Well any rule has to have a line, and positive/negative is an easier one to call than racial negative/non-racial negative, I would say. In a sense banners are particularly easy to police because they are easy to see and easily taken away. It's not as if it's going to go before a court. In your example I would have security say to the fan - cut off the crane or lose the whole banner.

I think Max can chew this one quite easily, there was an instant sense of panic in Barcelona, Jerez and Valencia I thought . One upside of Max' combative personality is that no-one thinks he's bluffing when he says these things.

Should that rule be extended to the internet bulletin boards as well as the race-tracks?

Originally posted by wj_gibson
Should that rule be extended to the internet bulletin boards as well as the race-tracks?

Max for President of the World, you mean?

I say that because these BBs have become one of the "engine rooms", if you like, of what becomes popular public discourse about F1. They are where the common myths that emerge from particular races or controversial episodes become cemented as True Fact (or as Absolute Myth on the other side of the equation) and where opinions about partiuclar drivers can very quickly harden into either blind adulation of sheer hate, less out of a conviction of the properties of "driver x" and more as part of what quickly becomes an ego-flexing exercise among BB debatees (or flame war participants, as the case often is). "Craneboy" would never have become such a popular motif among a certain section of the F1 fanbase without internet BBs, for instance.

Put it this way - Ayrton Senna engaged in far more controversial acts than Michael Schumacher ever did - but Seens died just as the internet was in its very infancy, so there were never as many public discussions and antagonistic disputes among the fanbase (we can imagine what the traffic on the AtlasF1 BB would be like if it had existed in its present form in October 1990).

But Schumacher's rise was coterminous with that of Usenet, and subsequently BBs such as this one, meaning much closer public scrutiny and argmentation about his actions - this led (IMO) to a much greater and more intense polarisation between pro and anti positions that would have been the case if Schumi had been racing in the mid-1970s.

Originally posted by wj_gibson
I say that because these BBs have become one of the "engine rooms", if you like, of what becomes popular public discourse about F1. They are where the common myths that emerge from particular races or controversial episodes become cemented as True Fact (or as Absolute Myth on the other side of the equation) and where opinions about partiuclar drivers can very quickly harden into either blind adulation of sheer hate, less out of a conviction of the properties of "driver x" and more as part of what quickly becomes an ego-flexing exercise among BB debatees (or flame war participants, as the case often is). "Craneboy" would never have become such a popular motif among a certain section of the F1 fanbase without internet BBs, for instance.

Put it this way - Ayrton Senna engaged in far more controversial acts than Michael Schumacher ever did - but Seens died just as the internet was in its very infancy, so there were never as many public discussions and antagonistic disputes among the fanbase (we can imagine what the traffic on the AtlasF1 BB would be like if it had existed in its present form in October 1990).

But Schumacher's rise was coterminous with that of Usenet, and subsequently BBs such as this one, meaning much closer public scrutiny and argmentation about his actions - this led (IMO) to a much greater and more intense polarisation between pro and anti positions that would have been the case if Schumi had been racing in the mid-1970s.

I think there's a lot of truth in that. How to draw the line between freedom and nastiness is pretty tricky, though it seems to me that when a forum works well then many arguments do bring some kind of consensus, with evidence being dug up and different perspectives and interpretations explained.

Personally I would let members be voted off by the majority, rather than having to be banned by the mods. I feel that would take care of those few who just come to campaign rather than enjoy the sport.

Originally posted by undersquare


I think there's a lot of truth in that. How to draw the line between freedom and nastiness is pretty tricky, though it seems to me that when a forum works well then many arguments do bring some kind of consensus, with evidence being dug up and different perspectives and interpretations explained.

Personally I would let members be voted off by the majority, rather than having to be banned by the mods. I feel that would take care of those few who just come to campaign rather than enjoy the sport.

The problem with that is when you get a majority of people who support the same team/driver. They can then just vote off everyone who doesn't agree with them and there is no debate involved.

Originally posted by Josta


The problem with that is when you get a majority of people who support the same team/driver. They can then just vote off everyone who doesn't agree with them and there is no debate involved.

Well, in theory, but in practice most members are quite fair-minded I think. Democratic systems generally work better than you might fear but not as well a you'd hope, I would say ;) .

For example, Wikipedia or the FIA.

Originally posted by Josta


The problem with that is when you get a majority of people who support the same team/driver. They can then just vote off everyone who doesn't agree with them and there is no debate involved.

I think one of the best things about this forum over team-based/driver-based ones, is that there is such a wide variety of fans that frequent it all with differing views. Debate can be stimulating and informative, whereas on some driver-based/team-based one they can be quite insular and one-tracked and don't show the whole picture.

I personally prefer a forum like this where you can learn about other teams, discuss F1 with other teams fanbase, expand your knowledge and make friends as well. Yes it can be a bit controversial at times, but overall its a positive experience.

Originally posted by NineOneSeven


I am serial lurker on this site but even I have say something about this. Its unacceptable and Fernando has shown who he really is.

I'd like to quote Sam L Jackson in Jackie Brown as he shot Robert De'Niro; in refering to Fernando. 'What happend to us man????
'We Used to be Beautiful.'

Or something like that. Fernando was like the secound coming in F1 terms. 2007 He ruined it. I can't root for him no mo'

Alonso haters just get any opportunity to bash him, even when he is completely innocent. Very sad ...

Originally posted by F1Johnny


You know, you are right. I do not know what is in his mind, but I have my own mind and make my own deductions. It's just how I was raised. You don't know what is on his mind either, so does that mean you can't argue against my position??

If someone is being associated with a particular very public action and makes no objection to it, IMO it is very likely that they have no problem with it.

only because you say it ... please refrain from saying things you don't know about ... everybody can guess ... and make a lot of harm.

for example ...

right know I'm thinking that because most of the FIA members are British, then they favored Lewis over all the other drivers during the season. I have many examples where Lewis was not sanctioned, even when his actions were a little bit out of the rules ...

Originally posted by volumenzero



only because you say it ... please refrain from saying things you don't know about ... everybody can guess ... and make a lot of harm.

for example ...

right know I'm thinking that because most of the FIA members are British, then they favored Lewis over all the other drivers during the season. I have many examples where Lewis was not sanctioned, even when his actions were a little bit out of the rules ...

OK. Good luck with that.

Originally posted by F1Johnny


OK. Good luck with that.

with what? ...

don't worry ... I'll do my best to discredit all your lies ... or invented facts ...

meanwhile I'll smoke a joint an watch again this year China GP ... and maybe after I'll watch Monaco and Brazil ...

Originally posted by volumenzero

right know I'm thinking that because most of the FIA members are British, then they favored Lewis over all the other drivers during the season.

I guess you should looks carefully at who the members of FIA are. You will be in for a nice surprise. Also you claim there were many places where he should have sanctioned, where exactly do you mean. The only place he did anything controversial at all was in Fuji but the drivers behind him should have been more aware. If you mean Hungary then he didn't break any rules unlike Alonso who deliberately impeded a rival. If he blocked any other driver in the pit or pit lane there would be no argument about the penalty, it's just because Hamilton was his team mate and there was such a fuss about it.

Originally posted by F1Obsession


I guess you should looks carefully at who the members of FIA are. You will be in for a nice surprise.

Maybe you should enlighten us ;)

I was under the impression the FIA was largely made up of international delegates from various countries :

Originally posted by volumenzero


with what? ...

don't worry ... I'll do my best to discredit all your lies ... or invented facts ...

meanwhile I'll smoke a joint an watch again this year China GP ... and maybe after I'll watch Monaco and Brazil ...

Good luck with this:

"right know I'm thinking that because most of the FIA members are British, then they favored Lewis over all the other drivers during the season. I have many examples where Lewis was not sanctioned, even when his actions were a little bit out of the rules ..."

and now with this:

"don't worry ... I'll do my best to discredit all your lies ... or invented facts ..."

Originally posted by Chiara


Maybe you should enlighten us ;)

I was under the impression the FIA was largely made up of international delegates from various countries :

That's what I meant. And although the president Max although he is British, has a love affair with Ferrari and despises McLaren and Ron Dennis

Originally posted by F1Obsession


That's what I meant. And although the president Max although he is British, has a love affair with Ferrari and despises McLaren and Ron Dennis

Well, Max has more reason than most to hate the British. They imprisoned his parents due to their beliefs, (that is that Nazi'sm is good, and founding the British Union of Fascists).

Max has far more in common with the Italians, (support those who are winning).

Sometimes i get surprised by what people are saying and then i remind myself that i shouldn't. Max may have something against Dennis and he might not be too happy with McLaren after what happened, but it mostly has to do with Dennis i suppose.Nobody knows, we are just guessing. I didnt quite get the Italian comment, but i sure do hope it's not a generalisation

Originally posted by hobbes
Sometimes i get surprised by what people are saying and then i remind myself that i shouldn't. Max may have something against Dennis and he might not be too happy with McLaren after what happened, but it mostly has to do with Dennis i suppose.Nobody knows, we are just guessing. I didnt quite get the Italian comment, but i sure do hope it's not a generalisation

I sure hope he wasn't calling all Italians fascists :