Can-Am info request

I'd like to know all that I can about the Commander Motorhomes entries in the '72-'73 CAN-AM.
Who were the principles et al.
Thanks2Ya.

Charlie Agapiou was in charge. He was sponsored by Mike Slater the owner of the Commander Motorhome company. Here is Danny Hopkins in 1973 in the Commander Motorhome McLaren. Charlie Agapiou is at back of car. In 1973 Bobby Brown in the #97 car finished 5th and Danny Hopkins in the #98 car finished 6th at Mid Ohio driving for the Commander Motohome Team. Commander also sponsored Lloyd Ruby in an Eagle at Indy in 1973. That car was run by Lloyd Ruby's mechanic Mike Devlin. Photo lent site by Rob Neuzel. copyright 2006 Rob Neuzel www.yesterdaysneuz.com

As I recall, they were pretty much one year wonders, in 1973. They bought the two ex-works M8Fs from Gregg Young and added an M-20. Thier regular two drivers in the M8Fs were Bob Brown and Danny Hopkins. Tried hard, but with all the turbo Porsches running that year they did not have a chance. They tried to put a turbo Chevy V-8 in the M-20, but I do not think it ever really worked and it raced very sparingly, if at all. I would have to check Pete Lyons' great book to nail down that last recollection.

In 1973 they hired Mario Andretti.
Andretti had John Cannon as a team mate in at least some races. which is the reason for the Firestone decals. John Cannon also used Firestones in the past.
I remember without digging out info, is that the Firestones were not up to the task of the blown engine or the M20.
In the last two races Andretti drove the first heat but refused to drive the second and Cannon drove the M20 in the second heats.

Jerry:

John and Graham Collins once mentioned Lothar Mochenbacher as a driver too. The car was in their shop in Santa Ana about 4-5 years ago under going some work. I've never seen it raced in any Historic races though.

Jerry,

I know Kerry Agapiou, Charlie's brother, pretty well. Is he in that photo too?

Thanks.

Here is a very nice picture from Rob Neuzel showing the 97 and the 98 car at Mid Ohio in 1973. photo lent to site by Rob Neuzel. copyright 2006 Neuzel

Charlie ran this effort himself. His brother Kerry was with Jody Scheckter in the L&M Series in 1973. Jody also drove a Porsche 917 Turbo in the 1973 CanAm for Vasek Polack.

That car is still sits in John Collins shop. John restored it and never did anything with it. He has maintained it and every once in a while he fires it up. You can be assured that it is race ready with John but from what I know he or Graham never plan on running it. John and Graham maintain my cars and I see it every time I am there.

Nick

Which car do you mean Nick? The M20?

Originally posted by RA Historian
They tried to put a turbo Chevy V-8 in the M-20, but I do not think it ever really worked and it raced very sparingly, if at all.

Why was it that turbocharged big blocks never really worked in CanAm? Ever effort (excepting Porsche) that I've ever read about seems to have been a failure.

Originally posted by RA Historian
They tried to put a turbo Chevy V-8 in the M-20, but I do not think it ever really worked and it raced very sparingly, if at all.

Somewhere I have a pic that I took of the remains of their Road Atlanta turbo engine. A small child could almost stick their head in the hole in the block.;)

Originally posted by biercemountain


Why was it that turbocharged big blocks never really worked in CanAm? Ever effort (excepting Porsche) that I've ever read about seems to have been a failure.

The alloy Chevies were really in the infancy of their developement.
They weren't ready for the large NA sizes McLaren tried, much less one thousand plus horsepower with a blower.

It was another ten years before Detroit got really comfortable with blown engines, and then it was small ones, not Big Blocks.
Remember at this time AA/F dragsters were running iron blocks.
Bob

McLarens at Livonia , after repairing M20-2, converted it to turbo and tested it extensivly in the US early spring 73. All the crew I have spoken to say the power was reliable (1000hp) , but the transaxles (HewlandLG500) had by now become the weakest link. They were scattering them like confetti. Commanders had a Wiesmann in their car ( which was 20-2) in an effort to solve this problem. They also were converting 8F-1 to turbo power but it never got to completion as the fuel crisis hit and Commanders finally went under. Mario Andretti's effort is in there somewhere also.

Here is what the Commander Indy car looked like in 1973. They qualified 15th. At a speed of 191.622. But only ran 21 laps due to engine trouble and finished 27th. Driven by Lloyd Ruby. Photo lent site by Rob Neuzel. copyright Neuzel 2006.

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Which car do you mean Nick? The M20?

No the M8F I think is what John has. I will ask Graham tomorrow about the car, he is crewing for me in Coronado.

Nick

Good Luck at Coronado Nick. The forum is behind you. Kind of like go with the force.

Thanks Jerry! Should be fun, the weather is perfect and the event is really pumped up this year with SRT Dodge commiting to sponsorship.

Nick

The original LG's struggled with a NA Big Block putting out decent torque, i would expect you could make an LG last these days with a lot of maintanence on a well setup turbo big block though.

The main problem with a turbo car of the CanAm era would be down to waste gate control, or rather lack of it. You can work wonders with modern electronic boost control systems, mechanical systems of the period would have been very dificult to work with and produce a drivable torque curve.

Incedentaly i helped a little on the original M8F turbo car that was racing with it's new driver for the first time this weekend at Dijon.

The #98 McLaren is the car I saw in the Collins Shop that John Collins was working on.

I believe the M8F in John Collins shop painted as a Commander car is a car John built using some parts from one of the Commander M8Fs. John never represented this car as having the historical linage to Commander to me. The Commander M8F represented is owned by Craig Pence. Craig has the documented provenance for this M8F. Craig has rebuilt the chassis with the original parts he received from the prior owner. As is often the case in a Can-Am chassis sometimes various parts went in multiple directions when the cars were rebuilt and raced, but I believe the convention is to follow the ownership trail in deciding who owns the real car.


See Martins site for more information on Chassis numbers and ownership trails:

http://wsrp.ic.cz/ch...aren_canam.html

Bob

Team McLaren raced at least one of the M20's with a Weisman gearbox.
I remember seeing the Commander motorhomes truck and trailer at Laguna Seca in 1973. All the major teams were moving up to big rigs and Commander had one of the nicest, with 3 cars, plus when you looked inside, you saw spare aluminum Big Block engines! It was quite impressive! Little did we know what 1974 had in store for the Can-Am. Fuel shortages and long lines at the pump, talk of canceling races because they waste gas, a limit on total gallons of fuel for the race which caused Porsche to pull out. The end of Can-Am.
David

Here is a very nice picture from Rob Neuzel showing the 97 and the 98 car at Mid Ohio in 1973. photo lent to site by Rob Neuzel. copyright 2006 Neuzel

Indeed, a very nice photo!


The #97 car was driven by Bobby Brown, with the following results:
Watkins Glen 7/22/1973 - DNF (engine failure)
Mid-Ohio 8/12/1973 - 5th
Road America 8/26/1973 - 5th
Laguna Seca 10/14/1973 - 4th
Final point standings - 11th, with 26 points

The #98 car was driven by Danny Hopkins with the following results:
Road Atlanta 7/7/1973 - 13th
Watkins Glen 7/22/1973 - 13th
Mid-Ohio 8/12/1973 - 6th
Road America 8/26/1973 - 9th
Final point standings - 18th, with 8 points


Brown's #97 car was chassis number "M8F-1" as driven by Peter Revson for the McLaren works team to a Can-Am championship victory in 1971, and as driven by Francois Cevert for the Young American Racers team to 5th place in the 1972 championship points race.

The Commander Motor Homes team had purchased both the ex-Revson M8F-1 and the wrecked ex-Hulme/ex-Young M8F-2 from Gregg Young (Young American Racers) at the conclusion of 1972.

Hopkins' #98 car was chassis number "M8F-72-09", and was built by Trojan under license from McLaren.

As I understand it, the Commander team built up a fourth McLaren M8F from spare parts in 1973. This fourth car is evidently what Scott Hughes is vintage racing today, as shown in detailed photos here: McLaren M8F and as discussed here: http://forums.autosp...howtopic=105458

This Commander thread has been dormant a long time... but I wonder if anyone can share close-up photos of the Commander team's McLaren's? Detailed recollections about their construction? How did these cars differ from the McLaren team's M8Fs of two years earlier? Firestone tires instead of Goodyears, right? More highly staggered intake trumpets? Was Commander able to utilize any newer technologies? Did changing Can-Am rules force changes to specifications? Does anyone have pictures or recollections of the Hughes' car while still owned by Commander?

Edited by BritishV8, 15 March 2011 - 17:47.

Would these help?







Copyright owner JA GAUERKE

Great pix and info; just bear in mind that the Scott Hughes M8F is NOT the works McLaren, Peter Revson driven car, but rather is a Commander Motor Homes clone built in 1973.

I know I've whipped this horse half to death, but I feel it is necessary to continue to let the world know that the claims of Hughes are not true.

Tom

Sharp photos! Thanks!

Great pix and info; just bear in mind that the Scott Hughes M8F is NOT the works McLaren, Peter Revson driven car, but rather is a Commander Motor Homes clone built in 1973.

Fair enough. I've edited my previous post to eliminate ambiguity on that point...


Wouldn't it be great if we could discover a period photo of the Commander shop with their five (or more?) McLaren's together?

Some of my shots from Mid-Ohio 1973...

Nice shots Mark. We must have been very near one another at the track!

As I recall, they were pretty much one year wonders, in 1973. They bought the two ex-works M8Fs from Gregg Young and added an M-20. Thier regular two drivers in the M8Fs were Bob Brown and Danny Hopkins. Tried hard, but with all the turbo Porsches running that year they did not have a chance. They tried to put a turbo Chevy V-8 in the M-20, but I do not think it ever really worked and it raced very sparingly, if at all. I would have to check Pete Lyons' great book to nail down that last recollection.

Photo caption Quote from Mario's book.
Mario drove the Agapiou Brothers' Mclaren M20-Chevy twin-turbo Can Am car at Laguna Seca and Riverside in September,1973.
"That car had more power than God!" he marvels. But it had tremendous throttle lag. You had to go flat on the throttle fifty yards before the corner so you had boost pressure to come off the corner. But down the straightaway, man, that thing flew! That car was actually scary to drive. It could lift the front wheels in any gear.

This was of course the Commander modified M-20. Charley Agapiou was the team manager.
They had to move the gear shift linkage closer to the steering wheel for Mario because he didn't want to take his right hand completely off the wheel to shift gears.
I remember somewhere Mario said that the M-20 would have been a better car with about 300 less HP.
On another point about the ex team cars, a new M-8F TEAM CAR (flat bottom) was built from the remains of Greg Young's car. We used the original bulkheads so most likely the rivet pitch was dead nuts the same.

Edited by Tom Smith, 16 March 2011 - 21:17.

Commander Motor Homes racing McLarens

Here is the history of Commander Racing McLarens based on talking to John Collins, Craig Pence, Duncan Fox, Gary Arentz, and reports from others based on talking to Charlie Agapiou, Monte Shelton, John Mason, and Bobby Brown plus my research.

Commander Motor Homes racing division was started at the direction of its owner, Mike Slater. Charlie Agapiou was in charge of the race team and mechanics. Commander decided to go Can-Am racing for 1973 and purchased the two M8F McLaren Team cars owned by Greg Young, the Peter Revson Championship M8F and the wrecked Hulme M8F plus some spares. Commander racing also purchased an almost new McLaren M8FP from Bill Cuddy S/N 9-72 and purchased additional parts and a spare M8FP customer chassis from Trojan. In 1973 Commander fielded two McLaren M8F’s, the ex Revson M8F repainted in Commander colors with number 97 and the Ex Cuddy M8FP repainted white (from its baby blue gel coat) with number 98.
The initial plan was to race the ex Revson M8F and the ex Cuddy M8FP while rebuilding the damaged Hulme M8F into an improved car that could take a turbo for Mario Andretti to drive. Before the ex Hulme M8F project was finished Mario expressed a desire to drive a later model McLaren and Commander purchased the ex Hulme M20 (from the 1972 Road Atlanta crash) that had been repaired by McLaren and went to work installing a Turbo charged Chevrolet (some work on this project had been started by McLaren).
Milt Minter drove the 97 car at Atlanta and Bobby Brown drove the ex Revson number 97 car for the next six races. Danny Hopkins drove the ex Cuddy 98 car in 5 races until an accident at Edmonton. Commander assembled a new car around the spare Trojan M8FP chassis. They also used the 98 body work with a new nose for the last two races at Laguna and Riverside. Cannon drove the 98 spare car in both events for practice but switched to the M20 for the races.

Commander racing pulled out of the Can-Am and sold all the cars off in 1974. The M20 and the damaged Ex Cuddy chassis went to Fred Knoop. Commander racing advertised “3M8F McLarens with or without engines, some spares contact Charles Agapiou” in the February 2 1974 Autoweek&CP classified section. Monte Shelton and Dan Hanna purchased the Revson M8F from Charlie Agapiou and Shelton raced the Ex Revson M8F at Mid Ohio and Road America in 1974. The partially repaired Hulme M8F and the newly assembled M8FP with number 98 body work was purchased by Eugene Nearburg. Charles Nearburg (Eugene's son) raced the number 98 M8FP still in the Commander white at the 1976 World Sports Car race at Mosport with the entrant listed as Carter Crompton(Crompton purchased the M8FP from Eugene Nearburg). Carter Crompton later sold the M8FP to Joel Finn. Gary Arentz purchased the ex Hulme M8F now completed with a small block from Nearburg in 1977. Commander never had more than two M8F’s running at one time.

Edited by bobLee, 27 March 2011 - 22:54.

Great job there Bob. You've cleared up a great deal of the uncertainty.

I'm curious to know which of these five distinct entities can be traced through to the present day? I took a shot at it:

M8F-1 (works/Revson - Young - Commander Homes/Brown - Shelton) - four owners later - Louwmann Collection 2010?

M8F-2 (work/Hulme - Young - Commander Homes/unused - Nearburg - Arentz) - three owners later - Chris MacAllister 2010?

M8FP S/N 9-72 (Cuddy - Commander Homes/Hopkins - Knoop) ... is this the car Craig Pence has?

M20 (ex Hulme) (works/Hulme - Commander Homes/Cannon - Knoop) - National Auto Museum Reno, Nevada 2009?

M8FP built on spare chassis (Commander Homes - Nearburg - Crompton - Finn) - two owners later - Scott Hughes 2011?

What do I score out of five?

Five out of Five Allen you get a cigar or at least a round or two on me.

Great job there Bob. You've cleared up a great deal of the uncertainty.

I'm curious to know which of these five distinct entities can be traced through to the present day? I took a shot at it:

M8F-1 (works/Revson - Young - Commander Homes/Brown - Shelton) - four owners later - Louwmann Collection 2010?

M8F-2 (work/Hulme - Young - Commander Homes/unused - Nearburg - Arentz) - three owners later - Chris MacAllister 2010?

M8FP S/N 9-72 (Cuddy - Commander Homes/Hopkins - Knoop) ... is this the car Craig Pence has?

M20 (ex Hulme) (works/Hulme - Commander Homes/Cannon - Knoop) - National Auto Museum Reno, Nevada 2009?

M8FP built on spare chassis (Commander Homes - Nearburg - Crompton - Finn) - two owners later - Scott Hughes 2011?

What do I score out of five?

Mario drove the Agapiou Brothers' Mclaren M20-Chevy twin-turbo Can Am car at Laguna Seca and Riverside in September,1973.

Has anybody pictures of that car? Where did they place the turbos?

Edited to say that I found this picture but I thought more about a shot where you can see the engine in the car.

Edited again to add this link. Ouch!

Edited by Duc-Man, 30 March 2011 - 09:20.

Has anybody pictures of that car? Where did they place the turbos?

Edited to say that I found this picture but I thought more about a shot where you can see the engine in the car.

Edited again to add this link. Ouch!

Your link to the photo of the turbo M20 is the 1973 Riverside race. John Cannon took over the car from Mario, hence the Goodyear decals. Firestone at this point of the Can-Am was no longer able to produce a competitive tire.

Can someone help me understand the history of Bill Cuddy's M8F, the one Commander bought?

Cuddy appears in a couple of races late 1972 but the car he raced is described by the very reliable racingsportscars.com as a M8E (chassis 80-04, the ex Roy Woods Racing/Vic Elford car), not a M8F. RSC records Cuddy driving this M8E again in 1973.

So how could Commander have bought a M8F from Cuddy?

Commander Motor Homes racing McLarens

Here is the history of Commander Racing McLarens based on talking to John Collins, Craig Pence, Duncan Fox, Gary Arentz, and reports from others based on talking to Charlie Agapiou, Monte Shelton, John Mason, and Bobby Brown plus my research.
The partially repaired Hulme M8F and the newly assembled M8FP with number 98 body work was purchased by Eugene Nearburg. Charles Nearburg (Eugene's son) raced the number 98 M8FP still in the Commander white at the 1976 World Sports Car race at Mosport with the entrant listed as Carter Crompton(Crompton purchased the M8FP from Eugene Nearburg). Carter Crompton later sold the M8FP to Joel Finn. Gary Arentz purchased the ex Hulme M8F now completed with a small block from Nearburg in 1977. Commander never had more than two M8F’s running at one time.

Bold emphasis above mine.

This is where the fun begins, as readers of recent posts on the Vintage Motorsport thread know. The Commander built M8F, as bolded above, is the car which is now owned by Scott Hughes who continues to claim that it is the Revson car, which it clearly is not. Both the Hughes car and the Revson car, now in the Louwman Museum, were owned by Commander, but most emphatically Hughes does not, as he claims, own the Revson car.
Tom

Can someone help me understand the history of Bill Cuddy's M8F, the one Commander bought?

Cuddy appears in a couple of races late 1972 but the car he raced is described by the very reliable racingsportscars.com as a M8E (chassis 80-04, the ex Roy Woods Racing/Vic Elford car), not a M8F. RSC records Cuddy driving this M8E again in 1973.

So how could Commander have bought a M8F from Cuddy?

No expert here, but do recall Can-Am pretty vividly.

I agree, Cuddy did not drive an M8F in late 1972, but rather an M8E (the customer version M8D for 1971).

I just looked at both my Road America and (then) Donnybrooke programs, Cuddy's not shown as entered at RA but did enter an M8E at Donnybrooke (car #3) — though he is not on the grid sheets nor finishing results. In Pete Lyons' Can-Am book, the only grid I see him on in 1972 is at Laguna, though listed as "M8D." (if that's in error, it's understandable). My memory pictures him in at least an "M8D or E-style" car, tucked into my RAM from a period photo I'm sure....

For a Series that so dominates so many memories, it's interesting that things like this seemingly aren't in concrete just yet.

Cuddy bought a brand new M8F(P)

Can someone help me understand the history of Bill Cuddy's M8F, the one Commander bought?

Cuddy appears in a couple of races late 1972 but the car he raced is described by the very reliable racingsportscars.com as a M8E (chassis 80-04, the ex Roy Woods Racing/Vic Elford car), not a M8F. RSC records Cuddy driving this M8E again in 1973.

So how could Commander have bought a M8F from Cuddy?

The current owner of M8F 9-72, Craig Pence, has a letter from Bill Cuddy stating that Peter Ag sold him the last M8F(P) made and a photo of the M8F(P) in front of the Cuddy house with a date of March 1973 and a note on the back of the photo "last M8F made". The Cuddy letter further states that he sold his M8F(P) to Commander in 1973 because they offered him a great deal more money than he paid for the car plus he had another M8 to race. Commander needed a fresh M8F and this was available. The letter from Bill Cuddy confirms what I had been told by John Collins regarding the first commander customer M8F(P). Cuddy raced his M8E in 1973 and at the end of the year bought a second but used M8F(P) from Kahlich.

Edited by bobLee, 08 April 2011 - 22:59.

Craig Pence has emailed me to clarify the history of his ex-Cuddy/Commander Homes car.

So I can amend my suggested histories as follows:

M8F-1 (works/Revson - Young - Commander Homes/Brown - Shelton) - four owners later - Louwmann Collection 2010

M8F-2 (work/Hulme - Young - Commander Homes/unused - Nearburg - Arentz) - three owners later - Chris MacAllister 2010

M8FP S/N 9-72 (Cuddy - Commander Homes/Hopkins - Knoop) - one or more owners later - Craig Pence 2011

M20 (ex Hulme) (works/Hulme - Commander Homes/Cannon - Knoop) - National Auto Museum Reno, Nevada 2009

M8FP built on spare chassis (Commander Homes - Nearburg - Crompton - Finn) - two owners later - Scott Hughes 2011

To confuse matters slightly, Cuddy also owned M8FP 8-72 in 1974 and that car, two owners and a major fire later, was also acquired by Craig Pence.

Any errors or omissions?

My brain hurts

My head hurts as well

My brain hurts

David I agree and my head hurts as well. I had heard all the Commander car histories over the last twenty plus years but my eyes glazed over on some of the details. Due the importance of getting the Revson team M8F history sorted out it forced me to review and understand the other Commander cars. I have spent a lot of time looking at various period chassis photos and reviewing interviews, etc. This thread is now the best record of the Commander Can-Am Chassis history on the web. I know of even more complicated Can-Am chassis race histories but will leave their sorting out to others ;)

Edited by bobLee, 11 April 2011 - 19:43.

Good work, Bob, appreciate your diligence.

Tom

A bump here, in that the Hughes McLaren M8F, the Commander built car, was at Sears Point last weekend, still in McLaren orange, but at least the owner, Scott Hughes, has partially given in to truth by removing Peter Revson's name and number from the car. Further, I understand that he has consigned the car to Fantasy Junction for sale. This may be the end of what has been a lengthy campaign to have Hughes stop trying to foist off his Commander built car to the world as the Revson Can Am winner, which it most assuredly is not.
Tom

A bump here, in that the Hughes McLaren M8F, the Commander built car, was at Sears Point last weekend, still in McLaren orange, but at least the owner, Scott Hughes, has partially given in to truth by removing Peter Revson's name and number from the car. Further, I understand that he has consigned the car to Fantasy Junction for sale. This may be the end of what has been a lengthy campaign to have Hughes stop trying to foist off his Commander built car to the world as the Revson Can Am winner, which it most assuredly is not.
Tom

Excellant! As per my post on Vintage Motorsport same topic - now's the time to press for this level of truth and correct representation of historic cars from all parties. That includes restorers, event organisers and current owners. We out number the rogues by 100s to one yet too afraid to speak up. The #98 car had no reason to hide its true identity, it has value and history and hopefully it will see more track time in the future. Probably worth $250k less than the Revson team car. So be it!

Probably worth $250k less than the Revson team car. So be it!

Bingo! That may well be the reason Hughes had the car painted the way he did, and why he fraudulently claimed for months that it was the Revson car. Well, it is for sale now, and he will get just what the car is worth, not any more due to a false identity.

....Hughes.... he will get just what the car is worth, not any more due to a false identity.

If Karma exists, hopefully less.

Bingo! That may well be the reason Hughes had the car painted the way he did, and why he fraudulently claimed for months that it was the Revson car. Well, it is for sale now, and he will get just what the car is worth, not any more due to a false identity.

Hopefully it will be back in Commander colors.

Cuddy bought a brand new M8F(P)

The current owner of M8F 9-72, Craig Pence, has a letter from Bill Cuddy stating that Peter Ag sold him the last M8F(P) made and a photo of the M8F(P) in front of the Cuddy house with a date of March 1973 and a note on the back of the photo "last M8F made". The Cuddy letter further states that he sold his M8F(P) to Commander in 1973 because they offered him a great deal more money than he paid for the car plus he had another M8 to race. Commander needed a fresh M8F and this was available. The letter from Bill Cuddy confirms what I had been told by John Collins regarding the first commander customer M8F(P). Cuddy raced his M8E in 1973 and at the end of the year bought a second but used M8F(P) from Kahlich.

To support this, I have just found a report of Bill Cuddy winning a SCCA National at Riverside on 1 April 1973 ("The April Fool's Day National" but it really did happen!)

waking this thread up. can any one direct me to photos, or any information on the lola T163/17, I believe ex penske-donohue, when it was run by eno depasquale in can-am 1970 on. I believe this car also appeared at the s.c.c.a. run offs at road atlanta in 1975. the car is restored and was running in vintage events recently. thanks in advance.

mike in canada

waking this thread up. can any one direct me to photos, or any information on the lola T163/17, I believe ex penske-donohue, when it was run by eno depasquale in can-am 1970 on. I believe this car also appeared at the s.c.c.a. run offs at road atlanta in 1975. the car is restored and was running in vintage events recently. thanks in advance.

mike in canada

Here is some info from Bonhams dated 2008.

Some race entries for Eno DePasquale in the same car listed here.

Hope that helps.

Last I heard it was owned by the late Dale Phelon. I suspect that the Bonhams Auction referenced above involved settling the estate. Have not heard what happened to it since.