Being born in Bourne, Lincolnshire, at the end of 1974, my recollections of the BRM are very limited. Having seen many of the cars being demonstrated around the town, last summer, I'd really like to find out a lot more about my hometown team.
Were they not a truly innovative team, starting with their V16 engine, winning the World Championship in '62, developing the H16 engine, holding the record for the fastest ever Grand Prix, and having had many of the World's greatest drivers race for them. What happened in the mid 70's that took them from a points scoring team, to one that couldn't even pre-qualify?
The only web sites that I have been able to find about them have been somewhat lacking:-
http://www.ribbox.demon.co.uk/
http://www.owenmotoringclub.co.uk/
Many thanks for any information!
British Racing Motors
Started by
RaymondMays
, Sep 06 2000 12:11
43 replies to this topic
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#2
Ray Bell
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Posted 06 September 2000 - 12:46
I think we had a little on this not long ago.. Use the search facility, it's only in the last few weeks, I'm sure.
I really miss them, they had a real life in them, those BRMs, they had a chequered history, but always came back for more.
The glory years of 62 to 65, and then 69 to 72, they were real winners, deserving of their accolades.
As you mention, the fastest win in history, and that in the same car that won the slowest race of the year.
And Pedro drove them.
I really miss them, they had a real life in them, those BRMs, they had a chequered history, but always came back for more.
The glory years of 62 to 65, and then 69 to 72, they were real winners, deserving of their accolades.
As you mention, the fastest win in history, and that in the same car that won the slowest race of the year.
And Pedro drove them.
#3
Gil Bouffard
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Posted 06 September 2000 - 15:00
Louis Stanley's last book may give you some answers.I have seen it but I haven't brought myself to buy it.
While Stanley may have been the creator of the F1 Mobile Emergency Medical Center, I think his handling of BRM led to its demise.
Gil
While Stanley may have been the creator of the F1 Mobile Emergency Medical Center, I think his handling of BRM led to its demise.
Gil
#4
Ray Bell
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Posted 06 September 2000 - 15:15
He married into BRM and inherited it when nobody wanted to be near him, I think. BRM was owned by the Owen family by then, owners of Rubery Owen, who as I recall made their fortune stamping chassis rails for all kinds of car makers in the twenties.
#5
Cobra
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Posted 06 September 2000 - 17:48
I remember BRM entering an open top sports racer in IMSA in the early 1990's. A few years ago you could purchase a Rover subcompact with the "BRM" package only in the UK.
#6
Ray Bell
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Posted 06 September 2000 - 18:02
BRM built a car for Rover to race at Le Mans, powered by a gas turbine engine, and then they built a Group 7 car for CanAm, which is obviously the car to which you refer. Without reference, I would say it was fitted with the usual Chevy. Was this the only BRM not fitted with a BRM gearbox?
What a thought... the 1961 cars had Climax engines, of course, so the engine not being BRM was not unique, but the gearbox... was the Rover-BRM fitted with a BRM box?
What a thought... the 1961 cars had Climax engines, of course, so the engine not being BRM was not unique, but the gearbox... was the Rover-BRM fitted with a BRM box?
#7
Roger Clark
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Posted 06 September 2000 - 20:03
i don't thnk the rover BRM had a gearbox as the turbime developed maximum torque at zero revs. THe Climax engined cars had colotti boxes and so did some of the early V8s.
The best books to get on BRM, by a very long way, are Doug Nye's BRM Saga, covering the front engined cars, and tTony Rudd's autobiography. I believe the second volume of Doug's book is almost ready. Louis Stanley's andRaymond Mays' books don't even come close.
As well as BRM your fin town (I was born in Peterborough) has a number of other connections with racing. your namesakes early racing cars were based there, as were the pre-war ERAs. Today Mike Pillbeam builds his cars there.[p][Edited by Roger Clark on 09-07-2000]
The best books to get on BRM, by a very long way, are Doug Nye's BRM Saga, covering the front engined cars, and tTony Rudd's autobiography. I believe the second volume of Doug's book is almost ready. Louis Stanley's andRaymond Mays' books don't even come close.
As well as BRM your fin town (I was born in Peterborough) has a number of other connections with racing. your namesakes early racing cars were based there, as were the pre-war ERAs. Today Mike Pillbeam builds his cars there.[p][Edited by Roger Clark on 09-07-2000]
#8
FredF1
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Posted 07 September 2000 - 07:41
Yep, Tony Rudd's book is back in print - picked up a copy for £20 in London last week - very interesting too. It doesn't cover BRM's early 70's resurgence too much as he'd gone to Lotus by then. Louis Stanley's book barely mentions BRM - He goes on about the motor racing scene in general more than anything - seems to be more him "Setting the record straight" regarding the introduction of safety in F1 and aiming a few swipes at "Prof" (sic) Sid Watkins.
#9
SeaMonkey
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Posted 07 September 2000 - 22:34
I was going to say that if you wanted to learn about BRM then Stanley's book would be the last place you should look, but FredF1 beat me to it!
#10
Ray Bell
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Posted 07 September 2000 - 23:08
I have only the BRM Story by Raymond Mays and Peter Roberts, which is essentially informative but emotional.
Perhaps that has coloured my thinking about the team, but I do see it in an emotional light.
They did do some good things technically, going to six speed boxes in the 1.5 era and that mono was so skinny. The BRM V8 was probably the best of the V8s of the formula, and they built scads of them (for the time, not like today... some privateers only had one engine, for instance) and sold them in carburettored versions while they raced the injection models. They were happy to stretch them to 2 litres for the Tasman and Sports Cars, and then to 2.2 litres. And not for the glory of any sponsors, either. For the sake of racing, as far as I can see. Maybe an 8-race test series towards the next year's racing in F1, but that didn't apply in 1966... then again, to a degree it did! They went on with the 2.2s for a while as the H16 let them down.
Perhaps that has coloured my thinking about the team, but I do see it in an emotional light.
They did do some good things technically, going to six speed boxes in the 1.5 era and that mono was so skinny. The BRM V8 was probably the best of the V8s of the formula, and they built scads of them (for the time, not like today... some privateers only had one engine, for instance) and sold them in carburettored versions while they raced the injection models. They were happy to stretch them to 2 litres for the Tasman and Sports Cars, and then to 2.2 litres. And not for the glory of any sponsors, either. For the sake of racing, as far as I can see. Maybe an 8-race test series towards the next year's racing in F1, but that didn't apply in 1966... then again, to a degree it did! They went on with the 2.2s for a while as the H16 let them down.
#11
FredF1
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Posted 08 September 2000 - 07:22
Ray, Tony Rudd's book goes into all the trials and tribulations of the engine and chassis development for that period in great detail. Raymond Mays doesn't come out covered in too much glory though - he comes across in Rudd's book as an interfering old crank.
#12
Ray Bell
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Posted 08 September 2000 - 08:27
Still trying to live off his ERA fame?
#13
FredF1
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Posted 08 September 2000 - 09:07
I don't know much about ERA, but that's the impression I got from Rudd's book - Mays gives lots of orders but takes very little responsibility - especially when it comes to stretching BRM's resources a little too thinly. Rudd gives this a s the reason they didn't do too well in the '63 & '64 seasons - He's very scathing about the very short timescale for running the Rover/BRM Le Mans effort and the aborted 4WD project.
#14
Ray Bell
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Posted 08 September 2000 - 11:47
Yes, it's all very well taking on an extra task, but the manpower becomes thinly spread and compromises are made. Everything suffers if it's not done right.
#15
RaymondMays
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Posted 08 September 2000 - 12:14
What happened to the team from '75-'77? They seemed to use the same car (from '74) each year (apart from '77, and only entered one race in '76. In '77 they only qualified for two races, despite entering 10. I can't understand how a team that was at the front end of the grid managed to get it so wrong and drop out in the space of five years - especially when they had had sponsorship from Marlboro and Yardley, etc.
On a slightly different note, I often wonder what it would be like to have an F1 series where the cars were built and entered by privateers, and there were no big sponsorship deals (compared to what we see today), and the grid wasn't limited to 24, and the engines didn't have to be V10s.
Wandering off again, the Pilbeam cars are doing spectacularly well in the SportsRacing Lights series. Just wish that that sort of thing got a bit more media coverage.
Pilbeam Racing Designs - http://ourworld.comp...acing/INDEX.htm
Sports Racing World Cup - http://www.sportsracing-world-cup.com/
On a slightly different note, I often wonder what it would be like to have an F1 series where the cars were built and entered by privateers, and there were no big sponsorship deals (compared to what we see today), and the grid wasn't limited to 24, and the engines didn't have to be V10s.
Wandering off again, the Pilbeam cars are doing spectacularly well in the SportsRacing Lights series. Just wish that that sort of thing got a bit more media coverage.
Pilbeam Racing Designs - http://ourworld.comp...acing/INDEX.htm
Sports Racing World Cup - http://www.sportsracing-world-cup.com/
#16
Ray Bell
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Posted 08 September 2000 - 12:23
Weren't Pilbeam originally virtually one-off Hillclimb cars?
#17
Racer.Demon
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Posted 08 September 2000 - 13:01
A couple of things:
1. I saw the Rover-BRM at Goodwood last year. It looked so cumbersome and unwieldy that it is hard to imagine that it was ever *raced*. Also, they had such huge trouble getting the thing running in the first place that you can't have nothing but admiration for Stewart and Hill making it work for 24 hours *and* finish 10th! Or is it just that turbine technology is very hard to maintain and keep fit over the years? All things being equal, the turbine sound was ghastly and has no place in a racing car.
2.
In 1972, Stanley came up with the brilliant idea to run up to six cars at the same time. Apparently he was in need to spend the Marlboro money as silly as possible, since, needless to say, the mechanics were hard pressed to service all that equipment, resulting in probably the largest string of DNFs a single team ever amassed in one season. There was one bright light in a dim season, however: Beltoise's brilliant win at Monaco. Before that, BRM with all its cars had scored zero points. After that, they totalled a full three points extra to Beltoise's nine...
In 1973, things looked better with Regazzoni and Lauda on board. Clay even led the opening race from pole but then the age of the P160 design (in its fifth evolution) started to weigh, especially after the Spanish GP rule change. With both Niki and Clay leaving for Ferrari and Marlboro moving to McLaren, I guess that was it.
From 1974, BRM wasn't essentially British anymore, with a French driver and sponsorship from Motul ("French Racing Moteurs", as an 8W player called David Fox called it just a while ago). The follow-up P201 was an average car, its only virtue a debut second place by Beltoise at Kyalami (by virtue of attrition). With JPB crashing out of his F1 career, things progressively got worse for BRM. First Motul bowed out along with JPB, so Stanley had to hire young Bob Evans to drive his year-old single sponsorless car. Then, having become a backmarker, their single Ashley entry for '76 was nothing but a dud.
For 1977 Stanley promised a new car and sponsorship from Rotary Watches. But then the car was a dog (mind you, it was penned by Len Terry, of Eagle T1G fame no less!) and then Rotary wanted their money back, claiming non-performance and even starting litigation against poor old Big Lou...
I guess one line would sum it all up: never trust your in-laws.
More on all of this at http://www.racer.dem.../8w/8w-72k.html (centering around Beltoise's Monaco win and Pilette's DNQ at Hockenheim '77)
I thought that was called Indycars ;)
(And may I be picky? Privateers don't build cars - they buy them.)
1. I saw the Rover-BRM at Goodwood last year. It looked so cumbersome and unwieldy that it is hard to imagine that it was ever *raced*. Also, they had such huge trouble getting the thing running in the first place that you can't have nothing but admiration for Stewart and Hill making it work for 24 hours *and* finish 10th! Or is it just that turbine technology is very hard to maintain and keep fit over the years? All things being equal, the turbine sound was ghastly and has no place in a racing car.
2.
Originally posted by RaymondMays
What happened to the team from '75-'77? They seemed to use the same car (from '74) each year (apart from '77, and only entered one race in '76. In '77 they only qualified for two races, despite entering 10. I can't understand how a team that was at the front end of the grid managed to get it so wrong and drop out in the space of five years - especially when they had had sponsorship from Marlboro and Yardley, etc.
In 1972, Stanley came up with the brilliant idea to run up to six cars at the same time. Apparently he was in need to spend the Marlboro money as silly as possible, since, needless to say, the mechanics were hard pressed to service all that equipment, resulting in probably the largest string of DNFs a single team ever amassed in one season. There was one bright light in a dim season, however: Beltoise's brilliant win at Monaco. Before that, BRM with all its cars had scored zero points. After that, they totalled a full three points extra to Beltoise's nine...
In 1973, things looked better with Regazzoni and Lauda on board. Clay even led the opening race from pole but then the age of the P160 design (in its fifth evolution) started to weigh, especially after the Spanish GP rule change. With both Niki and Clay leaving for Ferrari and Marlboro moving to McLaren, I guess that was it.
From 1974, BRM wasn't essentially British anymore, with a French driver and sponsorship from Motul ("French Racing Moteurs", as an 8W player called David Fox called it just a while ago). The follow-up P201 was an average car, its only virtue a debut second place by Beltoise at Kyalami (by virtue of attrition). With JPB crashing out of his F1 career, things progressively got worse for BRM. First Motul bowed out along with JPB, so Stanley had to hire young Bob Evans to drive his year-old single sponsorless car. Then, having become a backmarker, their single Ashley entry for '76 was nothing but a dud.
For 1977 Stanley promised a new car and sponsorship from Rotary Watches. But then the car was a dog (mind you, it was penned by Len Terry, of Eagle T1G fame no less!) and then Rotary wanted their money back, claiming non-performance and even starting litigation against poor old Big Lou...
I guess one line would sum it all up: never trust your in-laws.
More on all of this at http://www.racer.dem.../8w/8w-72k.html (centering around Beltoise's Monaco win and Pilette's DNQ at Hockenheim '77)
Originally posted by RaymondMays
On a slightly different note, I often wonder what it would be like to have an F1 series where the cars were built and entered by privateers, and there were no big sponsorship deals (compared to what we see today), and the grid wasn't limited to 24, and the engines didn't have to be V10s.
I thought that was called Indycars ;)
(And may I be picky? Privateers don't build cars - they buy them.)
#18
Ray Bell
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Posted 08 September 2000 - 13:25
Even pickier... some Indycars have some substantial sponsorships.
#19
Racer.Demon
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Posted 08 September 2000 - 14:04
And there are 24 starters in Indycars nowadays.
Sorry, wrong analogy there...
Although F1 sponsorship is substantially more substantial than Indycars' substantial sponsorships. But I agree that's not the point.
Sorry, wrong analogy there...
Although F1 sponsorship is substantially more substantial than Indycars' substantial sponsorships. But I agree that's not the point.
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#20
Roger Clark
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Posted 08 September 2000 - 23:33
The Tasman races of 1966 were not the first time BRM had raced in New Zealand. Ken Wharton drove a V16 in two races in 1954. In the New Zealand GP at Ardmore Wharton led for much of the race but dropped back with brake problems to finish fifth. The race was won by Stan Jones, father of Alan in the legendary Maybach Special. In the Lady Wigram Trophy at Christchurch Wharton again led but suffered engine problems and pushed the car home to finish third. The race was won by Peter Whitehead in a Ferrari from Tony Gaze, subject of a thread here some months ago, in a supercharged HWM.
In early 1959 Ron Flockhart raced a front engined 2.5 litre three time in New Zealand. He won a heat of the NZGP but retired in the final after running third. He then won the Lady Wigram Trophy race and the Teretonga Trophy at Invercargill. These were excellent wins, the opposition including Moss, Brabham and McLaren. They had entered the Australian GP in late 1958 but a change of date meant that they didn’t have time to transport the cars after the Moroccan Grand Prix.
The main purpose of these visits was to provide publicity for the Owen Organisation who owned BRM and who had considerable interests in New Zealand.
Raymond Mays’ main talent was a publicist and raiser of sponsorship. In this he was many years ahead of his time. He funded his own racing from the early 1920s through commercial sponsorship. It almost entirely through these skills and his energy that te BRM project was launched in the late 1940s. Without Raymond Mays there would have been no BRM, but his abilities as a manger were much less, and he definitely seems to have hindered the development of the team in the 1959s.
There was a similar situation with Peter Berthon, the Technical Director of BRM during the 1950s. It was always stated that Berthon was the designer of both the V16 and the 4 cylinder car as well as the pre-war ERA. All of these claims seem to be extremely doubtful, Berthon had no formal engineering training, and according to one member of the BRM team: “he couldn’t even sketch, let alone draw”. It may be that he came up with the basic concepts, but the design was done by others.
These views come mainly from the books of Doug Nye and Tony Rudd, and I have to admit that each of these contributed to the others book. Rudd was trained by Rolls-Royce immediately before and during the Second World War. At that time, there ws no finer training for an engineer, both technically and in dedication to work. Berthon’s approach, which involved arrival at the office around mid-day and then going for a long lunch were anathema to Rudd. Nevertheless, his views, and those of others interviewed by Nye in his book are consistent.
These three, Mays, Berthon and Rudd, are, along with Sir Alfred Owen, the key individuals in the BRM story. Louis Stanley was always around, being Sir Alfred’ brother-in-law, but he did become involved in the running of the team until the late 1960s. Wonderful though the Rodriguez/Siffert era was, it wasn’t quite the same to see the cars painted in the colours of a perfume company. To me, true BRMs will always be painted that sombre shade of green and entered by the Owen Racing Organisation.
In early 1959 Ron Flockhart raced a front engined 2.5 litre three time in New Zealand. He won a heat of the NZGP but retired in the final after running third. He then won the Lady Wigram Trophy race and the Teretonga Trophy at Invercargill. These were excellent wins, the opposition including Moss, Brabham and McLaren. They had entered the Australian GP in late 1958 but a change of date meant that they didn’t have time to transport the cars after the Moroccan Grand Prix.
The main purpose of these visits was to provide publicity for the Owen Organisation who owned BRM and who had considerable interests in New Zealand.
Raymond Mays’ main talent was a publicist and raiser of sponsorship. In this he was many years ahead of his time. He funded his own racing from the early 1920s through commercial sponsorship. It almost entirely through these skills and his energy that te BRM project was launched in the late 1940s. Without Raymond Mays there would have been no BRM, but his abilities as a manger were much less, and he definitely seems to have hindered the development of the team in the 1959s.
There was a similar situation with Peter Berthon, the Technical Director of BRM during the 1950s. It was always stated that Berthon was the designer of both the V16 and the 4 cylinder car as well as the pre-war ERA. All of these claims seem to be extremely doubtful, Berthon had no formal engineering training, and according to one member of the BRM team: “he couldn’t even sketch, let alone draw”. It may be that he came up with the basic concepts, but the design was done by others.
These views come mainly from the books of Doug Nye and Tony Rudd, and I have to admit that each of these contributed to the others book. Rudd was trained by Rolls-Royce immediately before and during the Second World War. At that time, there ws no finer training for an engineer, both technically and in dedication to work. Berthon’s approach, which involved arrival at the office around mid-day and then going for a long lunch were anathema to Rudd. Nevertheless, his views, and those of others interviewed by Nye in his book are consistent.
These three, Mays, Berthon and Rudd, are, along with Sir Alfred Owen, the key individuals in the BRM story. Louis Stanley was always around, being Sir Alfred’ brother-in-law, but he did become involved in the running of the team until the late 1960s. Wonderful though the Rodriguez/Siffert era was, it wasn’t quite the same to see the cars painted in the colours of a perfume company. To me, true BRMs will always be painted that sombre shade of green and entered by the Owen Racing Organisation.
#21
Gil Bouffard
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Posted 09 September 2000 - 15:11
Re: "To me, true BRMs will always be painted that sombre shade of green and entered by the Owen Racing Organisation."
That shade of green is called "Bottle Green," by the folks over at the BRM web site.
Gil
That shade of green is called "Bottle Green," by the folks over at the BRM web site.
Gil
#22
Paul Hartshorne
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Posted 09 September 2000 - 18:48
I'm coming in a little late to this thread, but as I'm currently reading LIFE AT THE LIMIT by Graham Hill, I can add a little about the Rover-BRM turbine, which according to GH was built up around the spaceframe chassis of a 1961 BRM F1 car.
The car had a torque converter rather than a gearbox, and had just two pedals, an accelerator and a double-width brake pedal. There was very little engine braking from the turbine, but it took 8 seconds to reach tick-over speed (30,000 rpm), and another 3 second to wind up to full power, 72,000 rpm!, so GH and co-driver Richie Ginther had to lift off very early, brake with their left foot, then reapply accelerator 100 yards before a corner (while still braking) in order to have the power back on in time for the corner's exit. The ultimate in turbo-lag?!
According to Graham Hill, the turbine only produced about 140 bhp, but he still says that it was the quickest car he ever took through White House corner.
The car had a torque converter rather than a gearbox, and had just two pedals, an accelerator and a double-width brake pedal. There was very little engine braking from the turbine, but it took 8 seconds to reach tick-over speed (30,000 rpm), and another 3 second to wind up to full power, 72,000 rpm!, so GH and co-driver Richie Ginther had to lift off very early, brake with their left foot, then reapply accelerator 100 yards before a corner (while still braking) in order to have the power back on in time for the corner's exit. The ultimate in turbo-lag?!
According to Graham Hill, the turbine only produced about 140 bhp, but he still says that it was the quickest car he ever took through White House corner.
#23
Don Capps
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Posted 10 September 2000 - 03:01
I really didn't begin to pay much attention to BRM until 1958 and only then because the great Harry Schell drove for them -- along side Jean Behra, another one of those drivers of the period that I liked. Whoever Harry drove for, I was for -- which is how I ended up rooting for the Brits of all people when he did time in the saddle for Tony Vandervell.
Generally speaking, BRM was not much to brag about in the late 50's. I was at Zandvoort in 1959 when Joakim Bonnier won their first race, but we all considered it the fluke that it was, although we were all happy for Bonnier, a real Gent.
In my unasked for opinion, Big Lou Stanley committed a felony of the darkest type when he did some of the truly bone-headed things he did in the 1971/1972/1973 timeframe. He completely frittered away the resources of the team and made some blindingly stupid decisions which led to the team becoming a footnote in the recordbooks.
Less I be misunderstood, it is entirely possible that BRM could have lasted much longer in GP (or F1 for the newbies) had Big Lou had a gram of sense. Indeed, I always thought that Big Lou would eventually come to his senses and put some serious effort into the customer engine side of the house because I thought that BRM could have had a good customer base in the 1970 and following seasons when Cosworth hit their quality control problems.
It is an interesting thought to mull over what would have happened to Jackie Stewart if BRM had retained Richie Ginther for 1965 and the wee Scot had ended up at Lotus with the Other Scot... This is not so far-fetched as it sounds since Tony Rudd and the rest of the technical staff and especially the mechanics all loved Ginther -- as had the Ferrari meachanics before that. Indeed the Ferrari mechanics thought he was amazing...
Amazing that when BRM is mentioned how few mention Ginther...
Generally speaking, BRM was not much to brag about in the late 50's. I was at Zandvoort in 1959 when Joakim Bonnier won their first race, but we all considered it the fluke that it was, although we were all happy for Bonnier, a real Gent.
In my unasked for opinion, Big Lou Stanley committed a felony of the darkest type when he did some of the truly bone-headed things he did in the 1971/1972/1973 timeframe. He completely frittered away the resources of the team and made some blindingly stupid decisions which led to the team becoming a footnote in the recordbooks.
Less I be misunderstood, it is entirely possible that BRM could have lasted much longer in GP (or F1 for the newbies) had Big Lou had a gram of sense. Indeed, I always thought that Big Lou would eventually come to his senses and put some serious effort into the customer engine side of the house because I thought that BRM could have had a good customer base in the 1970 and following seasons when Cosworth hit their quality control problems.
It is an interesting thought to mull over what would have happened to Jackie Stewart if BRM had retained Richie Ginther for 1965 and the wee Scot had ended up at Lotus with the Other Scot... This is not so far-fetched as it sounds since Tony Rudd and the rest of the technical staff and especially the mechanics all loved Ginther -- as had the Ferrari meachanics before that. Indeed the Ferrari mechanics thought he was amazing...
Amazing that when BRM is mentioned how few mention Ginther...
#24
Roger Clark
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Posted 10 September 2000 - 07:50
Don,
I don't think JoBo's win at Zanvoort can really be desrcibed as a fluke. He was on pole position, and ran either 1st or 2nd throughout. he battled strongly against Brabham and Gregory in the early stages. Only Moss was conclsively faster until his gearbox broke, but neither of those things was unusual that year.
It is true that BRM's season went downhill from then, but that was due to the usual politics.
Should someone start a thread of Harry Schell stories?
I don't think JoBo's win at Zanvoort can really be desrcibed as a fluke. He was on pole position, and ran either 1st or 2nd throughout. he battled strongly against Brabham and Gregory in the early stages. Only Moss was conclsively faster until his gearbox broke, but neither of those things was unusual that year.
It is true that BRM's season went downhill from then, but that was due to the usual politics.
Should someone start a thread of Harry Schell stories?
#25
Don Capps
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Posted 10 September 2000 - 12:48
Roger,
It definitely wasn't a fluke in any way shape or form at Zandvoort that JoBo won. He definitely put his stamp on the race. However, they then managed to fumble away the rest of the season.
Speaking of 'Arry, surely everyone knows about how his Topolino (actually it was a 600 but I still thought of it as a Topolino...) ended up outside his hotel room at Reims... but do you know how the car got back downstairs?
Since we just happened to staying at the same hotel...
It definitely wasn't a fluke in any way shape or form at Zandvoort that JoBo won. He definitely put his stamp on the race. However, they then managed to fumble away the rest of the season.
Speaking of 'Arry, surely everyone knows about how his Topolino (actually it was a 600 but I still thought of it as a Topolino...) ended up outside his hotel room at Reims... but do you know how the car got back downstairs?
Since we just happened to staying at the same hotel...
#26
Ray Bell
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Posted 10 September 2000 - 14:00
Be fair, Don, spill the beans on the 600. They were fractionally bigger, but much heavier... they had the water cooled engine with four cylinders. And an extra pair of doors.
One thing not mentioned in this thread is the race Dan Gurney won for BRM... there's another driver rarely mentioned in connection with the marque.
Then there was the day the glue that held the fuel tanks together melted in the heat...
One thing not mentioned in this thread is the race Dan Gurney won for BRM... there's another driver rarely mentioned in connection with the marque.
Then there was the day the glue that held the fuel tanks together melted in the heat...
#27
Roger Clark
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Posted 10 September 2000 - 15:17
I always thought it was an Isetta. but what was going on inside the room at the time...
#28
Ray Bell
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Posted 10 September 2000 - 21:24
Sorry, Roger, forgot to ask... where did the info come from about the 1958 Australian GP?
By change of date, do you mean for the Moroccan GP or the Australian.
If it's the latter, I have my doubts that there was ever any change of date there... it was on the traditional weekend. The only alternative date could have been Easter, and that was so long gone by the time planning for the race was on hand that nobody could possibly mention a clash with Morocco.
But what a thought! What if.... the pace cars were the 250F of Jones, the Ferrari of Davison, a 625/750 is its usual description, which allows for the fat 3-litre Monza Sports Car engine that was fitted... and the beloved Tornado, in its second year of Corvette power.
It was the Tornado that made the break and got away... how would it have been with Harry or Jean there? As I said, what a thought!
By change of date, do you mean for the Moroccan GP or the Australian.
If it's the latter, I have my doubts that there was ever any change of date there... it was on the traditional weekend. The only alternative date could have been Easter, and that was so long gone by the time planning for the race was on hand that nobody could possibly mention a clash with Morocco.
But what a thought! What if.... the pace cars were the 250F of Jones, the Ferrari of Davison, a 625/750 is its usual description, which allows for the fat 3-litre Monza Sports Car engine that was fitted... and the beloved Tornado, in its second year of Corvette power.
It was the Tornado that made the break and got away... how would it have been with Harry or Jean there? As I said, what a thought!
#29
Roger Clark
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Posted 10 September 2000 - 22:44
Ray,
the information came from Doug Nye's "BRM" He says tha the race was riginally scheduled for December 7th but was changed to November 29th. THe morrocan race was October 19th. THe car and two mechanics were due to leave England by sea on October 30th, arriving on December 1st. Unfortunately it wouldn't have been Behra or Schell. ron Flockhart was the scheduled driveer.
the information came from Doug Nye's "BRM" He says tha the race was riginally scheduled for December 7th but was changed to November 29th. THe morrocan race was October 19th. THe car and two mechanics were due to leave England by sea on October 30th, arriving on December 1st. Unfortunately it wouldn't have been Behra or Schell. ron Flockhart was the scheduled driveer.
#30
Ray Bell
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Posted 10 September 2000 - 23:22
So it was the Moroccan race that was rescheduled... anyway, Ron Flockhart would have added some real colour all the same, and I'll bet the Tornado would have been stretched further than the 155mph it did on the straight if he'd been there.
Still a great thought, and something that should have been included in the AGP book.
Still a great thought, and something that should have been included in the AGP book.
#31
Gil Bouffard
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- 597 posts
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Posted 11 September 2000 - 04:32
Dan Gurney had a major off at Zandvoort in the BRM on the Tarzan Curve. As I understand it, the BRM used a gearbox mounted disk brake. It locked up and Gurney went straight off!
For the Richie Ginther buffs. from my friend and president of the American Auto Racing Writers and Broadcasters Association (AARWBA), Dusty Brandel. "Automobile Quarterly has a great story on Ritchie Ginther by Michael Ling...."
For the Richie Ginther buffs. from my friend and president of the American Auto Racing Writers and Broadcasters Association (AARWBA), Dusty Brandel. "Automobile Quarterly has a great story on Ritchie Ginther by Michael Ling...."
#32
Ray Bell
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Posted 11 September 2000 - 08:36
The incident itself wasn't all that great... but the outcome was horrendous. Two youngsters were in the out-of-bounds area where he went and I think one died and the other was mildly injured. The first fatality involving a BRM, and the second last, If memory serves me right.
#33
FredF1
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Posted 11 September 2000 - 12:36
Is this what inspired the scene in Grand Prix where Sarti crashes at Spa come from?
#34
FredF1
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Posted 11 September 2000 - 12:44
Ray, more regarding Raymond Mays. Rudd says that, when they were in the business of attracting Stewart to join BRM, Mays put his foot in it by not recognising Jackie at a race meeting. Rudd says that, only for Mrs Stanley knowing who Jackie was, was a major embarrassment avoided - especially as RM was in charge of driver contracts and negotiations! Rudd doesn't say too much about why JYS chose BRM over Lotus though.
#35
Ray Bell
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Posted 11 September 2000 - 12:53
Fred, a couple of replies to you here...
First, I don't think Lotus was a prospect for Stewart. It was a one-driver team with a makeweight second driver whose days in F1 were numbered... either by the frailty of Lotus or the lack of results driving him out.
He was with Tyrrell in the Cooper FJr team, but Cooper were losing their competitiveness, anyway. BRM, on the other hand, were likely to win almost any race those days. And they ran in the Tasman series too, for extra experience.
It always seemed to me that the scene at Spa was strikingly like the Gurney/Zandvoort incident.
First, I don't think Lotus was a prospect for Stewart. It was a one-driver team with a makeweight second driver whose days in F1 were numbered... either by the frailty of Lotus or the lack of results driving him out.
He was with Tyrrell in the Cooper FJr team, but Cooper were losing their competitiveness, anyway. BRM, on the other hand, were likely to win almost any race those days. And they ran in the Tasman series too, for extra experience.
It always seemed to me that the scene at Spa was strikingly like the Gurney/Zandvoort incident.
#36
Barry Lake
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Posted 12 September 2000 - 21:53
Don
These others might be too interested in their own discussion to want to know - but I do.
How did they get the Fiat back downstairs?
A first-hand account is a valuable historic reference.
These others might be too interested in their own discussion to want to know - but I do.
How did they get the Fiat back downstairs?
A first-hand account is a valuable historic reference.
#37
RaymondMays
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- 205 posts
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Posted 26 September 2000 - 12:38
Looking on the Amazon website for BRM books, the only one mentioned is "BRM: Front Engined Cars, 1945-60", by Doug Nye and Tony Rudd. Does the £100 price sound about right? Any other reading suggestions? Also, there are some videos available from http://www.dukevideo.com. Has anybody seen these, and if so, can they be recommended?
Does anybody know who now owns the BRM name? I guess it's still owned by Rubery Owen, but I do remember a few years ago hearing rumours of a motor racing team trying to buy the rights to the name, in order to use it for their own team.
Does anybody know who now owns the BRM name? I guess it's still owned by Rubery Owen, but I do remember a few years ago hearing rumours of a motor racing team trying to buy the rights to the name, in order to use it for their own team.
#38
Rob Ryder
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- 2,603 posts
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Posted 26 September 2000 - 15:12
I have the boxed set of the BRM videos from Duke and they are worth every penny!
The personal insights and comments from Tony Rudd throughout all four videos is very enlightening.
My only complaint is that the 70s seem have been added as an afterthought and are not covered in any depth.
Overall? Buy them!
Rob
The personal insights and comments from Tony Rudd throughout all four videos is very enlightening.
My only complaint is that the 70s seem have been added as an afterthought and are not covered in any depth.
Overall? Buy them!
Rob
#39
Don Capps
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- 5,933 posts
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Posted 26 September 2000 - 16:58
RayMay,
The price might be a tad less for a reprint of the book which I think is available. Don't take my word for this, since I still have my copy which I only rescued from where it was residing about two weeks ago!
However, it is not cheap and if you are Serious, as they say, you might want to consider the investment.
And, Barry, 'Arry drove it back down the steps.... No kidding!!! Including the downhill hairpin at the landing. I was terriblely miffed at my Mom for not being able to be next to 'Arry as he did so...he did offer the seat to me after all...
Relating another thread to this one, I really started to follow BRM when Richie Ginther started to drive for them. Ditto for 1960 & Dan Gurney's stint. I still feel that Ginther doesn't receive as much credit as he deserves for helping BRM win the Championship in 1962 and keeping it in the hunt for the next several seasons.
Tony Rudd is a marvel and I am glad many of you are seeing what a great engineer he was and the great works he accomplished. Without Raymond 'ERA' Mays and 'Big' Lou Stanley mucking things up for the folks like Ginther, Rudd, Cyril Atkins & the other hard-working BRM mechanics, I still have the feeling BRM would still be around in some form.
As an aside: I am not as anti-British/Pom as I may seem at times, especially when the Early Days are discussed. It is that my biases were formed by exposure to Italian racing and also American racing. While it might seem a tad strange, I was not -- and still not -- as awed by the Mercedes juggernaut as most were then and are even today. I was just smitten by red racing cars...nothing personal or anything, I just liked the wonderful chaos & fabulous antics of Maserati. They were an outfit a kid could relate to and enjoy! Since Ascari drove for Lancia, I was a Lancia fan; just that simple. And I have always run hot & cold on Ferrari.
I still think that if BRM had based its 1966 campaign around the vee-12 (eventually to appear as the P101 & P142 series) rather than the P75 H-16, it would have been a different ball game entirely that season. However, if bullfrogs had wings, they wouldn't bump their butts every time they hopped either....
The price might be a tad less for a reprint of the book which I think is available. Don't take my word for this, since I still have my copy which I only rescued from where it was residing about two weeks ago!
However, it is not cheap and if you are Serious, as they say, you might want to consider the investment.
And, Barry, 'Arry drove it back down the steps.... No kidding!!! Including the downhill hairpin at the landing. I was terriblely miffed at my Mom for not being able to be next to 'Arry as he did so...he did offer the seat to me after all...
Relating another thread to this one, I really started to follow BRM when Richie Ginther started to drive for them. Ditto for 1960 & Dan Gurney's stint. I still feel that Ginther doesn't receive as much credit as he deserves for helping BRM win the Championship in 1962 and keeping it in the hunt for the next several seasons.
Tony Rudd is a marvel and I am glad many of you are seeing what a great engineer he was and the great works he accomplished. Without Raymond 'ERA' Mays and 'Big' Lou Stanley mucking things up for the folks like Ginther, Rudd, Cyril Atkins & the other hard-working BRM mechanics, I still have the feeling BRM would still be around in some form.
As an aside: I am not as anti-British/Pom as I may seem at times, especially when the Early Days are discussed. It is that my biases were formed by exposure to Italian racing and also American racing. While it might seem a tad strange, I was not -- and still not -- as awed by the Mercedes juggernaut as most were then and are even today. I was just smitten by red racing cars...nothing personal or anything, I just liked the wonderful chaos & fabulous antics of Maserati. They were an outfit a kid could relate to and enjoy! Since Ascari drove for Lancia, I was a Lancia fan; just that simple. And I have always run hot & cold on Ferrari.
I still think that if BRM had based its 1966 campaign around the vee-12 (eventually to appear as the P101 & P142 series) rather than the P75 H-16, it would have been a different ball game entirely that season. However, if bullfrogs had wings, they wouldn't bump their butts every time they hopped either....
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#40
Roger Clark
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Posted 26 September 2000 - 20:16
Tony Rudd was at the Coyy Festival at Silverstone this year, signing copies of his autobiography which has been reissued. He told me that the second volume of Doug Nye's BRM history should be published soon. In my opppppinion, vol 1 is one of the top half dozen Motor Racing bools of all time.
#41
FredF1
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Posted 27 September 2000 - 10:33
Don..
I know what you mean regarding the BRM V12. Whilst reading Tony Rudd's biography, I was almost shouting at the book when I got to the chapter on the H16 - "No, no pick the 'Twelve', the 'Twelve'!"
Rudd still seemed to be proud of the H16 though.
Also, he has a lot of praise for Richie Ginther's testing work for the team.
I know what you mean regarding the BRM V12. Whilst reading Tony Rudd's biography, I was almost shouting at the book when I got to the chapter on the H16 - "No, no pick the 'Twelve', the 'Twelve'!"
Rudd still seemed to be proud of the H16 though.
Also, he has a lot of praise for Richie Ginther's testing work for the team.
#42
GT Action Photo
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- 96 posts
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Posted 27 September 2000 - 13:03
Tony Rudd made the fun as motorsport engineer and teamOriginally posted by Felix Muelas
[B]megatron,
I guess the anser is quite easy : over the period when BRM
raced we had fun.We don't have fun anymore (I don't) so I
guess that it might be quite easy assumption to make, my
friend...
fm
manager at BRM. It's all in his book "Tony Rudd-It Was
FUN!", subtitled:"My Fifty Years of High Performance."
The Book is now back in print.
I meet Tony Rudd at the SAE Motorsports Show at Dearborn,
Michigan a few years ago and gave him a photo of the
DeHavilland DH-98 "Mosquito" Airplane at the U.S.Air Force
Museum.Mr. Rudd told the story of his being on a test flight
,as a RR engineer,on a Mosquito during WW2 from a base in Italy.
Mr. Rudd quoted model numbers and performance data of the
Mosquitos like it was 1944 again. Tony Rudd, a remarkable
man.
BRM P 83 (1967)
Photo: GT Action Photo
BRM H-16 Cylinder Engine (1967)
Photo: GT Action Photo
BRM P 201 (Canadian GP,1974)
Photo: GT Action Photo
With kind regards,
Gary Trobaugh[p][Edited by GT Action Photo on 09-27-2000]
#43
RaymondMays
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- 205 posts
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Posted 10 October 2000 - 13:36
I've just seen a photo of what appears to be a BRM prototype sports car, which looks to be only a few years old. The photo is entitled P301, so if this is really a BRM, who built it, when, what was it for, and what are they doing now?
#44
Barry Lake
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- 2,169 posts
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Posted 10 October 2000 - 14:44
Tony Rudd - It was Fun is one of the best books (motor racing or otherwise) I have ever read.
It is accurate and detailed, yet very readable and never boring.
He obviously has a superb memory and, I would guess, some detailed note books/diaries.
He is a historian's dream.
I believe it was Rudd's input that made Doug Nye's first volume of the BRM history so detailed and informative.
That rates as another of the very top echelon of motor racing books.
There should be more like him.
It is accurate and detailed, yet very readable and never boring.
He obviously has a superb memory and, I would guess, some detailed note books/diaries.
He is a historian's dream.
I believe it was Rudd's input that made Doug Nye's first volume of the BRM history so detailed and informative.
That rates as another of the very top echelon of motor racing books.
There should be more like him.
