Fisichella vs Kovalainen

....Schumacher, Räikkönen, Button and Alonso.

Originally posted by race addicted
....Schumacher, Räikkönen, Button and Alonso.

List i would agree with, those 4 were the best drivers that year.

Originally posted by Tenmantaylor
Fisichella has won two grand prix over two seasons in the championship winning car.

Even if his team mate was much slower than him, Fisi still wouldnt have won more races as he has never actually finished 2nd behind Fernando. Quite unbelievable when Fernando has won 14 races in their time together. This isnt a bash, just facts.

How does anyone including himself expect a title challenge next year when its glaringly obvious only the abilitites of Alonso have made Renault the title challengers they've been the last couple of years? The only way I see it is if the renault is like Ferrari has been in the last few races this year.

I expect Kovalainen to be well up with Fisi and I wouldnt be surprised if he beat him over the season. That said Id like to see him do better for all the stick he's taken.

That's the best fact I've read today, well done, my Forix expired, but can anyone tell me the last time a back to back WDC & WCC pairing did so with only a single 1-2?

Originally posted by mikedeering
I voted Kova just to piss clampett off.

I voted Fisi to put fuel on the fire ... and also because it's the exceptable thing to happen.

I think Fisichella will get the upper hand through his vast F1 experience. He is such a consistent finisher. These and the fact that Alonso has now left the team should make him feel more of a 'number one' and I expect him up his game accordingly.

However, Kovalainen is one speedy customer. I can see him making a few mistakes in his rookie season and outpacing Fisichella more often than not and maybe, just maybe, winning a race.

Whatever happens it's going to make great viewing!

Hard to say...

I think GF will win this battle (close battle) however I want Kova to crush him.

Go Heikki!

Originally posted by Tenmantaylor
Those numbers seem to suggest

a) Alonso is a hell of alot better than Schumi or
b) Massa is alot better than Fisi or
c) Schumi and Alonso are fairly equal, massa isnt far behind and fisi is miles behind (on average)

But you'd have to see the results on average over say 10 years to rule circumstance and you'd have to have them swap cars to rule out how various drivers drive particular cars.

Yes Massa was easily out-driven by Fisi yes Alonso out-drove Fisi and yes Schumacher out-drove Massa.
Unfortunetly there are far more variables involved if not we'd have known a long time ago who was better than who but because you cannot work it it becomes open to discussion and therefore argument.
Judgement is a great thing from a human perspective to merge all the info together but if only you can just take out the bias influence and the answer would be to get many humans to decide who is the best.
I see Michael as the fastest followed by Alonso then Fisi then Massa
Fisi's problem is consistency and natural car setup ability whereas Massa's problem is an erratic personality which when he's up is fantastic but who'd trust him ? Michael and Alonso barring their little personality flaws too are both geniuses.

P.S. Fisi will have a situation similar to Massa in 2004 where Heikki will be trying desperately to make an impression over-driving and on some occasion inspired to beat Fisi but by years end he will have settled for second. It'll be just like 2004 for Fisi.

If Renault favors Fisi he will be faster than Kova. 2003 and early 2004 they tried to favor Trul who still couldnt beat Alon. It depends around whom they focus to hone the car match the driver perfectly. They'll only fix in the car what the first driver requires. If the 2nd driver is unhappy they dont spend long times to get a solution.

Heikki will be faster in my opinion and finish 2007 with double the points of Fisco.

I think Fisco has been destroyed in the last couple of years by Alonso and the fact that he drives a car that doesn't suit his style. He is too emotional and cracks. He may win the odd race, but he is no championship contender. He is too like Coulthard, he is either the mutts nutts or invisable.

In F1, if you are quick, you are quick out the box. Like Schu in 91 at Spa. Heikki will do similar.

Originally posted by andy walker
Heikki will be faster in my opinion and finish 2007 with double the points of Fisco.

I think Fisco has been destroyed in the last couple of years by Alonso and the fact that he drives a car that doesn't suit his style. He is too emotional and cracks. He may win the odd race, but he is no championship contender. He is too like Coulthard, he is either the mutts nutts or invisable.

In F1, if you are quick, you are quick out the box. Like Schu in 91 at Spa. Heikki will do similar.

If Kovalainen is that good, he might won the GP2 series to the awful Nico Rosberg. He is also usually not ahead in testing.

Originally posted by clampett


If Kovalainen is that good, he might won the GP2 series to the awful Nico Rosberg. He is also usually not ahead in testing.

Awful Nico Rosberg??? And you wonder why people have a hard time taking your post seriously, when you troll around yourself like this. :

Kovalainen lost because Nico's team was better, not because he sucked. Oh and BTW, while Nico is not as consistent as Kovalainen IMO, he is NOT awful by any standards.

Originally posted by andy walker
Heikki will be faster in my opinion and finish 2007 with double the points of Fisco.

I think Fisco has been destroyed in the last couple of years by Alonso and the fact that he drives a car that doesn't suit his style. He is too emotional and cracks. He may win the odd race, but he is no championship contender. He is too like Coulthard, he is either the mutts nutts or invisable.

In F1, if you are quick, you are quick out the box. Like Schu in 91 at Spa. Heikki will do similar.

I value HK very much and I think, that he is more talented and faster than GF. However, it is virtually impossible that HK would totally crash GF. Keep in mind, that GF has a very long career in F1, and he knows most of the tracks MUCH better than HK, who does not know the tracks outside Europe at all, except Bahrain. GF should have an upper hand in the beginning of the season, when the GPs are held outside Europe. Because GF is senior in the Renault team, he can have a bigger impact to the development of the Renault car than the rookie HK. Almost certainly the next Renault car will suit better to GF's style of driving than this year's model. My view about GF's abilities differ a lot from Clampett's view, but when he writes, that HK has usually not been ahead of GF in testing, he has a valid point. The situation has usually been pretty even, HK has not dominated - at least not so far.

Originally posted by man from martinlaakso



I value HK very much and I think, that he is more talented and faster than GF. However, it is virtually impossible that HK would totally crash GF. Keep in mind, that GF has a very long career in F1, and he knows most of the tracks MUCH better than HK, who does not know the tracks outside Europe at all, except Bahrain. GF should have an upper hand in the beginning of the season, when the GPs are held outside Europe. Because GF is senior in the Renault team, he can have a bigger impact to the development of the Renault car than the rookie HK. Almost certainly the next Renault car will suit better to GF's style of driving than this year's model. My view about GF's abilities differ a lot from Clampett's view, but when he writes, that HK has usually not been ahead of GF in testing, he has a valid point. The situation has usually been pretty even, HK has not dominated - at least not so far.

Incidentally in testing Piquet's often been ahead of both...

Originally posted by Menace


Awful Nico Rosberg??? And you wonder why people have a hard time taking your post seriously, when you troll around yourself like this. :

Kovalainen lost because Nico's team was better, not because he sucked. Oh and BTW, while Nico is not as consistent as Kovalainen IMO, he is NOT awful by any standards.

Rosberg's season was awful. Even more awful then Sato's last year. Crashed nearly at every race, and even in his better ones, like Bahrain, he spun out in the start. He seems to be a very dangerous hot-head driver, hopefully he won't drive for a topteam in the future.

Sorry, this is my opinion, I don't want to troll or whatever. But I simply don't like these immature crashkids.

Originally posted by clampett


Rosberg's season was awful. Even more awful then Sato's last year. Crashed nearly at every race, and even in his better ones, like Bahrain, he spun out in the start. He seems to be a very dangerous hot-head driver, hopefully he won't drive for a topteam in the future.

Sorry, this is my opinion, I don't want to troll or whatever. But I simply don't like these immature crashkids.

Nico had a bad season, no doubt about that. Hoewever, the Williams car was lousy. Keep also in mind, that Nico is still a very young driver. Do not write him off because of one unuccesfull season.

Originally posted by man from martinlaakso



Nico had a bad season, no doubt about that. Hoewever, the Williams car was lousy. Keep also in mind, that Nico is still a very young driver. Do not write him off because of one unuccesfull season.

Many drivers drove bad cars in their first season. But it's rare when even a rookie crashes in half of the races. Even Sato was more mature in his first year.

Originally posted by clampett


Many drivers drove bad cars in their first season. But it's rare when even a rookie crashes in half of the races. Even Sato was more mature in his first year.

The difference between Nico and Fisi is that the former is still learning (and we're still learning about him), whereas the latter is a known quantity - and not a particularly impressive one at that. Nico had a bad year, partly down to the car and partly down to attempting to beat a gifted and experienced teammate in his first season; he simply tried too hard. But it was his first year and he's still got the potential to settle down and justify his place in F1. It's better to secure a quick but erratic driver and try to calm him down, than to go for a slow driver and hope to unlock speed in him.

Hi,

I've been following Heikkis career for a very long period. And even as a finn, I have to say I'm not that impressed. There are just too many excuses about why he lost to Frank Montacny and to Nico. I'm not saying that he complains too much, he is a very likeable fellow and that's why I would like to see him win the WDC before KR, but I just can't see that happend. The point is that there shouldn't be excusess at all. He should have won the series he has been in. He's been on avarage on par with GF or just below at tests. Also he has said that he never holds back, even in test sessions which would indicate that there is no speed in reserve. And GF's true colors has been revealed by FA. HK is above avarage driver but not good enough (currently). I believe it will be quite close battle between HK and GF with fisi havng the edge and we once again hear an excuse why HK lost.

Julli

Originally posted by Orin


The difference between Nico and Fisi is that the former is still learning (and we're still learning about him), whereas the latter is a known quantity - and not a particularly impressive one at that. Nico had a bad year, partly down to the car and partly down to attempting to beat a gifted and experienced teammate in his first season; he simply tried too hard. But it was his first year and he's still got the potential to settle down and justify his place in F1. It's better to secure a quick but erratic driver and try to calm him down, than to go for a slow driver and hope to unlock speed in him.

It's nothing to do with Fisi in this debate. Btw. he is a lot quicker than Nico is, I am sure.

Originally posted by clampett


It's nothing to do with Fisi in this debate. Btw. he is a lot quicker than Nico is, I am sure.

No, but I know you're a Fisi fan and therefore I hoped you might have more sympathy for drivers who had suffered lacklustre seasons. Particularly Rosberg, who did have reasons (inexperience and a poor ride) for the fact the he struggled.

No, but I know you're a Fisi fan

Many are Fisi "fans" only because it would make Alonso look even better.

Originally posted by Orin


The difference between Nico and Fisi is that the former is still learning (and we're still learning about him), whereas the latter is a known quantity - and not a particularly impressive one at that. Nico had a bad year, partly down to the car and partly down to attempting to beat a gifted and experienced teammate in his first season; he simply tried too hard. But it was his first year and he's still got the potential to settle down and justify his place in F1. It's better to secure a quick but erratic driver and try to calm him down, than to go for a slow driver and hope to unlock speed in him.

Definitely. Fisichella's season was almost embarrassing. I think the most damning evidence the complete nail in coffin was Brazil: To arrave at a circuit, needing to be fast, being willed to be the fastest in the team by everyone, even his teammate. Being given the faster car, being given the "prime" strategy and carte blanche - and he does LESS than nothing with it. 2 tenths off his teamate's fastest lap, a tenth slower than his teammate, with 5 laps less fuel and a more powerful engine. I don't mean to be rude about him at all, but he's certainly not even vaguely in Alonso's league. On the other hand Webber who at least seems to be was far more challenged (when not simply being hit) by the German.

Originally posted by Calorus


Incidentally in testing Piquet's often been ahead of both...

OMG what a load of nonsense. Piquet has done TWO testing sessions, and one of them was alone. Check your facts mate.

Of course Fisichella's "cannibal" reputation wasn't enough to overcome his no. 2 status in the team to beat a driver as good as Alonso is, but still he is not so bad to lose to a rookie.

Originally posted by Calorus


Definitely. Fisichella's season was almost embarrassing. I think the most damning evidence the complete nail in coffin was Brazil: To arrave at a circuit, needing to be fast, being willed to be the fastest in the team by everyone, even his teammate. Being given the faster car, being given the "prime" strategy and carte blanche - and he does LESS than nothing with it. 2 tenths off his teamate's fastest lap, a tenth slower than his teammate, with 5 laps less fuel and a more powerful engine. I don't mean to be rude about him at all, but he's certainly not even vaguely in Alonso's league. On the other hand Webber who at least seems to be was far more challenged (when not simply being hit) by the German.

Just considering that Fisi was very close to Alonso in the second half of the season, it could be other things why he had no pace there. Probably his engine wasn't that great...

Altough Brazil was probably on the top5 list of Fisi's worst ever races in F1 carreer. Others are 2005 Sepang, 2005 Suzuka, 2000 Indianapolis, 2000 Suzuka.

Originally posted by Stephan


OMG what a load of nonsense. Piquet has done TWO testing sessions, and one of them was alone. Check your facts mate.

Incorrect: he's done FOUR tests, THREE with Kovalainen and he finished TWO on top (i.e. Beating Everyone, including Kovalainen) - though I concede that he's not beaten GF in a test (in so far as he's never tried), that was a mistake.

Incorrect: he's done FOUR tests, THREE with Kovalainen and he finished TWO on top (i.e. Beating Everyone, including Kovalainen) - though I concede that he's not beaten GF in a test (in so far as he's never tried), that was a mistake.

Unless they were on identical programme (which wasn´t the case), testing means very little, if anything.

Originally posted by Spunout


Unless they were on identical programme (which wasn´t the case), testing means very little, if anything.

It means very little, in exactly the same way as a race win, really. The fact of the matter is that the best lap of the day of two Renaults have far more comparative value than 200 miles of contiuous running between a Honda and a Ferrari. Whilst they certainly don't conclusively say anything, it does immediately suggest that Piquet's in a similar ball park, within 600 miles.

Kovaleinen HAS to perform at least at the level Kimi did against Heidfeld. At least. Honestly he should be Fisi given the testing he's had.

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Kovaleinen HAS to perform at least at the level Kimi did against Heidfeld. At least. Honestly he should be Fisi given the testing he's had.

Initially he doesnt need to, if Fisi suddendly fights for the championship, or if Renault simply is no match for Ferrari.

Flav: Don't underestimate Renault
Wednesday, 15, November, 2006, 12:12
Click to enlarge

Renault boss Flavio Briatore has dismissed suggestions that his team will struggle to match its title-winning exploits of the past two seasons in 2007 without Fernando Alonso.

The double world champion is moving to McLaren after five seasons with the Anglo-French squad, with his place being taken by Finnish rookie Heikki Kovalainen alongside Italian veteran Giancarlo Fisichella.

The loss of its star driver, combined with a switch to unfamiliar Bridgestone tyres, has led many to suggest that the team may fall back into the pack next season – but Briatore is not subscribing to this view.

“I don’t accept that assumption,” he said in an interview with Formula 1’s official website.

“The people saying we will not continue our success in 2007 are the same ones who said we had won the title in Canada, or that Ferrari had won by Monza.

“They are people making quick judgments, not looking at the facts.

“They see unknowns, where we see people we know and logical decisions."

Renault was keen to stress when it confirmed its driver line-up for next season that 2007 marks the start of a new era for the team, as in addition to the promotion of Kovalainen to a race seat, it starts next year with two new test drivers (Ricardo Zonta and Nelson Piquet Jr) as well as a new title sponsor (ING).

However the core technical and management structure that oversaw its two double championship-winning campaigns remains in place and Briatore believes that this stability, combined with the determination to prove the doubters wrong, will see Renault cars continue to run at the front of the field.

“For me, there is a great motivation in beginning a new era without Fernando, and proving that the strength of Renault is about more than one person," he said.

“The secret to our success was written on the cars in 2006: team spirit.

“We want to stay at the top, and fight at the front. We are the only top-three team with technical stability, and we know our drivers.

“The team is prepared for the challenge, and looking forward to it.”

I have my doubts.

Renault are the best team this decade other then Ferrari: Fact.

If the car is working well with Bridgestones, he'll fly. That's my own gut instinct. Flavio would of liked Michael Schumacher in his team, if he wasn't retiring, but now like Schuey before, Alonso, his next plan is Kovalainen.

You can smell the self confidence a mile away.

Kovalainen is very much like Alonso in terms of media, if you remember races in 2003, when Renault and Alonso pushed Michael at certain races, I wouldn't be surprised one bit if Kovalainen is doing something similar, of cource no Michael now however. No one expects much of him, but like Alonso, a test driver, he has the confidence of Flavio.

You may see how good a engineering team Pat Symonds has at Renault, they gave Trulli his best season until and after Monaco 2004, when he overshadowed Alonso at times, and was beating him on points before the relationship went sour. It is a engineering sport, Alonso knows he has to prove more outside Renault, otherwise Pat Symonds team will always be credited in helping young drivers get a super start in f1. Michael did the ferrari challenge etc after 2 winning titles.

Formula One isn't the experience setting challenge it used to be, alot of test drivers can collect points, where back in the early 90s, they would of span off more. Kovalainen has the right mindset. I wouldn't be surprised if he's sharing podiums with another Finn in Kimi, and some races maybe Finn vs Finn., it is a possibility, because Renault are a great team, champions again, even if Ferrari look strong and regained strength, next year is capablle of being close.

Flavio is no idiot, , sooner or later, , Kovalainen will show why Renault has been champions in the past two seasons, they've delivered the most competitive car at the beginning of the season, and kept the reliability and quality control going, very important in amounting points, Alonso knows that, so winning with Mclaren will add another dimension to his career if he does.

F1 has changed alot in the space of a few months, you got two main players-Alonso and Kimi into new teams, and Kovalainen has stability in Renault, it's a plus, may not have much race f1 experience, but if the car gives him confidence on track, that will change quicker.

Kovalainen, not many expect much of him, I seem to rememer the same regarding Alonso some years back. And Alonso still has doubters, as now must prove himself outside Renault who made him. Ferrari look strong yes, but Renault are champions again, and have started seasons off better, which makes titles more achivable, Ferrari's fight back in 2006 was valiant, but it's always harder when your playing catch up, Renault have been playing no catch up at the start of seasons, very important in calcuating where you push and how quick, early pressure on rivals.

Fisi reckons he'll have a good shot at the drivers' title next season while Heikki hopes to be fighting for points. Interesting disparity of expectations there.

Originally posted by kismet
Fisi reckons he'll have a good shot at the drivers' title next season while Heikki hopes to be fighting for points. Interesting disparity of expectations there.

Typical Finnish mind set, IMO. Better to talk down than to talk up high expectations, some kind of let's see attitude with overcautious modesty. Like the proverb says:

Joka kuuseen kurkottaa, se katajaan kapsahtaa

, meaning being the one who aims too high will come crashing down.

Fisi will fight for the WDC and Heikki will play for the team and will get experience for his career.
Next season we'll see the real Fisi.....

Originally posted by angst


Which is what I was saying. If a driver can come in with so little experience and start performing like some sort of God, even if their junior career has been 'patchy', isn't the WDC in danger of becoming a laughing stock? Time and again we hear from young drivers how 'easy' F1 is ( a relative statement, obviously, but nonetheless a worrying development), and we see the likes of Kubica and Vettel step straight in and be on the pace - and I mean right on the pace.

As the World Championship for Drivers, F1 really has to look at this.

OMG and how long did it take Senna and MS to get on the pace?

Not all of the Rookie have been slamming home runs. Have a look at the rest of the pack and those who have been discarded in the last few years.

One other thing, these so called rookies are driving that many more K's in testing and the like before they even get to race that it is indeed making the racing transition easier, thats just smart teams not neccessarily easy cars to drive.

Originally posted by SeanValen
Renault are the best team this decade other then Ferrari: Fact.

Fact, lets wait until the decade ends so it is still fiction. Fact.

Almost forgot this thread, congratulations for those 64% who were right.

And congrats to clampett for making an ass out of himself.