Best sportscar racers ever

Ok, I start my list of the top 5 Best sportscar racers ever

1.-Pedro Rodríguez de la Vega
2.-Tom Kristensen
3.-Jacky Icks
4.-Stirling Moss
5.-Stefan Bellof

And what are your lists? (I think I don't need to explan the drivers I chose)

Olivier Gendebien has to be on the list as he won Le Mans four times, Sebring three times. and the 1000km of Nurburgring at least once as well as numerous other victories on his own or teamed with others

Just my favourites, not relevent to results.
1, Ken Miles
2, Phil Hill
3,Dan Gurney
4,Alan McNish
5,Pedro Rodriguez

Stirling Moss
Olivier Gendebien,
Paul Frère
Phil Hill
Chris Amon
Dan Gurney
Masten Gregory

That is such a hard call, there are probably some more recently successful drivers, mine are chosen really from when I was a real supporter of sportcar racing, these days the latest Audis and what have you, may be fast, but do not float my boat! Also, to narrow it down to just five drivers is nigh on impossible for me, so many gave so much pleasure, and for me, that does not mean that they were always winning, but were generally evocative, sorry, but I have narrowed it down to just the 10 and not really in any particaular order


Ken Miles
Brian Redman
Jo "Seppi" Siffert
Pedro Rodriguez
Hans Hermann
Paul Hawkins
Vic Elford
Chris Amon
Jacky Ickx
Stirling Moss..................and then I have missed out Nino Vacarrella, Mario Andretti, John Miles, John Surtees,Graham Hill, even Jochen Rindt! Gee you have asked a real corker!


With the exception of Ken Miles, I saw all of these drivers racing.

Sterling

Mine is a list of favorites as well, rather than "best" (last name alphabetical order, can not rank them):

Stefan Bellof
Marc Duez
Jacky Icks
Tom Kristensen
John Nielsen

I have seen all of them live, with the exception of Icks.

Wot- no Derek Bell?

Originally posted by Simon Hadfield
Wot- no Derek Bell?

Or Archie Scott-Brown ?

Originally posted by daallo1
Ok, I start my list of the top 5 Best sportscar racers ever

1.-Pedro Rodríguez de la Vega
2.-Tom Kristensen
3.-Jacky Icks
4.-Stirling Moss
5.-Stefan Bellof

And what are your lists? (I think I don't need to explan the drivers I chose)

With all due respect, top 5/10/50/100/1000 posts where people
don't explain their choices are pretty much worthless. I could
just as easily say

1. Lemmy out of Motorhead
2. Chesty Morgan
3. The Reverend Ndabaningi Sithole
4. The lovely weather girl Sian Lloyd who's been dumped by comedy Liberal MP Lembit Opik in favour of a Cheeky Girl
5. Jarvis Cocker

The names aren't important, or even particularly interesting; what's interesting are the stories, the examples, the logic you used to arrive at those choices.

Walt Hansgen
Hans Stuck, Jr.

Originally posted by petefenelon


With all due respect, top 5/10/50/100/1000 posts where people
don't explain their choices are pretty much worthless. I could
just as easily say

1. Lemmy out of Motorhead
2. Chesty Morgan
3. The Reverend Ndabaningi Sithole
4. The lovely weather girl Sian Lloyd who's been dumped by comedy Liberal MP Lembit Opik in favour of a Cheeky Girl
5. Jarvis Cocker

The names aren't important, or even particularly interesting; what's interesting are the stories, the examples, the logic you used to arrive at that choices.

Pete, you are quite correct.

Archie Scott-Brown

In an all too short 7 year span from '51 to May '58 Archie scored 71 Wins, 34 2nds, 12 3rd's mainly in Sports Cars and almost exclusively in Lister Sports Cars.

Superbly built and well founded, Listers were brutish, tricky machines that took some taming, Archie managed this to highly impressive effect in the face of severe physical disability from birth.

Archie was highly regarded and indeed feared on the track by many top line drivers of the time and "works" outfits of major manufacturers.

I recommend reading "Archie and the Listers" by Robert Edwards

Originally posted by petefenelon


With all due respect, top 5/10/50/100/1000 posts where people
don't explain their choices are pretty much worthless. I could
just as easily say

1. Lemmy out of Motorhead
2. Chesty Morgan
3. The Reverend Ndabaningi Sithole
4. The lovely weather girl Sian Lloyd who's been dumped by comedy Liberal MP Lembit Opik in favour of a Cheeky Girl
5. Jarvis Cocker

The names aren't important, or even particularly interesting; what's interesting are the stories, the examples, the logic you used to arrive at those choices.

Ok, if you consider it THAT important, I'll explan, don't worry

Pedro: I am reading his life and definitely he is the one of the greatest, this are his maor top5s (in spanish):

1er lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1958,
1er lugar Clase E Governor’s Trophy 1958, 1er lugar Ferrari Classic Clase D 1958,
1er lugar Nassau Trophy Clase D 1958,
1er lugar 12 horas de Sebring Sport 2000 Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1960,
1er lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1960,
1er lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1961,
1er lugar 1000 kilómetros de París 1961, 1er lugar 1000 kilómetros de París GTO 1961,
1er lugar 1000 kilómetros de París Índice de desempeño 1961,
1er lugar Governor’s Trophy 1961,
1er lugar Clase D Governor’s Trophy 1961,
1er lugar LeMans Test Weekend EXP 3.0 1962,
1er lugar 1000 kilómetros de París Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1962,
1er lugar 1000 kilómetros de París GT +2000cc Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1962,
1er lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos Sports 3000cc 1962,
1er lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos GT División III 1962,
1er lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos GT Subdivisión 3000cc 1962,
1er lugar 24 Horas de LeMans Experimental 2500 Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1962, 1er lugar Bridgehampton 400 Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1962,
1er lugar Bridgehampton 400 SR/Sports +2000cc Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1962,
1er lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1962,
1er lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos Sports 3000cc 1962,
1er lugar 3 horas de Daytona Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1963,
1er lugar 3 horas de Daytona GT 3000cc Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1963,
1er lugar 12 horas de Sebring Prototipos GT +3000cc Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1963,
1er lugar 150 millas de Laguna Seca +2.0 USRRC 1963, 1er lugar Pacific Raceways USRRC 1963,
1er lugar Pacific Raceways +1.6 USRRC 1963,
1er lugar GP Canadá Mosport Canadian Sportscar Championship 1963, 1er lugar Governor’s Trophy Clase 11/12 1963, 1er lugar Nassau Trophy 1963, 1er lugar Nassau Trophy Clase 11/12 1963, 1er lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1963, 1er lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos GT División III 1963, 1er lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos GT Subdivisión 3000cc 1963, 1er lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos Prototipos GT +3000cc 1963, 1er lugar Campeonato Mundial de Constructores F-1 1963, 1er lugar 2000 kilómetros de Daytona Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1964, 1er lugar 2000 kilómetros de Daytona GT +2000cc Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1964, 1er lugar Player’s Québec Mont-Tremblant Canadian Sportscar Championship 1964, 1er Canadian GP Mosport Canadian Sportscar Championship 1964, 1er Canadian GP Mosport Canadian Sportscar Championship S+2.0 1964, 1er lugar 1000 kilómetros de París Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1964, 1er lugar 1000 kilómetros de París GT3000 Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1964, 1er lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1964, 1er lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos GT División III 1964, 1er lugar GT +2L Clase 11/12GT Nassau Speed Weeks 1964, 1er lugar Nassau Tourist Trophy Clase 11/12GT 1964, 1er lugar Governor’s Trophy Clase 13/14 1964, 1er lugar Campeonato Mundial de Constructores F-1 1964, 1er lugar Formula Vee Cup Nassau Speed Weeks 1964, 1er lugar 24 horas de LeMans Prototipos GT 5000cc Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1965, 1er lugar 12 horas de Reims Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1965, 1er lugar 12 horas de Reims Prototipos GT +3000cc Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1965, 1er lugar Bridgehampton Double 500 Prototipos GT +1600cc Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1965, 1er lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1965, 1er lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos Prototipos 1965, 1er lugar 12 horas de Sebring Prototipos GT 5000cc Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1966, 1er lugar Nassau Governor’s & Tourist Trophy Clase 12GT 1966, 1er lugar Nassau Trophy Clase 9 1966, 1er lugar Gran Premio de Sudáfrica F-1 1967, 1er lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos Prototipos +2000cc 1967, 1er lugar 24 Horas de LeMans Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1968, 1er lugar 24 Horas de LeMans Sports 5000Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1968, 1er lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1968, 1er lugar 24 Horas de Daytona Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1970, 1er lugar 24 Horas de Daytona Sports Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1970, 1er lugar 1000 kilómetros BOAC Brands Hatch Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1970, 1er lugar 1000 kilómetros BOAC Brands Hatch Sports 5000 Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1970, 1er lugar 1000 kilómetros de Monza Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1970, 1er lugar 1000 kilómetros de Monza Sports 5000 Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1970, 1er lugar Gran Premio de Bélgica F-1 1970, 1er lugar 6 horas de Watkins Glen Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1970, 1er lugar 6 horas de Watkins Glen Sports 5000 Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1970, 1er lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1970, 1er lugar Reto Mundial Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1970, 1er lugar Triple Corona Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1970, 1er lugar Trofeo Gran Turismo Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1970, 1er lugar 24 Horas de Daytona Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1971, 1er lugar 24 Horas de Daytona Sports Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1971, 1er lugar Oulton Park F-1 1971, 1er lugar 1000 kilómetros de Monza Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1971, 1er lugar 1000 kilómetros de Monza Sports 5000 Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1971, 1er lugar 1000 kilómetros de Spa Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1971, 1er lugar 1000 kilómetros de Spa Sports 5000 Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1971, 1er lugar 1000 kilómetros de Österreichring Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1971, 1er lugar 1000 kilómetros de Österreichring Sports 5000 Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1971, 1er lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1971, 1er lugar Reto Mundial Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1971, 1er lugar Triple Corona Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1971, 2º lugar III Circuito Avándaro 1955, 2º lugar Clase VI Circuito Avándaro 1958, 2º lugar Clase III Circuito Santa Ana 1958, 2º lugar 12 Horas de Reims Clase 1958, 2º lugar Ferrari Classic 1958, 2º lugar Nassau Trophy 1958, 2º lugar 1000 kilómetros de Nürburgring Sport 2000 Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1959, 2º lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1959, 2º lugar Governor’s Trophy +2L Clase C 1959, 2o lugar GP Cuba 1960, 2º lugar GP Cuba Sport +2 L 1960, 2º lugar Nassau Trophy 1960, 2º lugar Nassau Trophy Clase D 1960, 2º lugar Carrera Hasta 1500cc Ciudad de México 1961, 2º lugar 1000 kilómetros de Nürburgring Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1961, 2º lugar 1000 kilómetros de Nürburgring Sports 3000 Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1961, 2º lugar GP Canadá Mosport Canadian Sportscar Championship 1962, 2º lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos GT Subdivisión 1000cc 1962, 2º lugar Double Bridgehampton 500 Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1963, 2º lugar Double Bridgehampton 500 GT Prototipos +3000cc Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1963, 2º lugar Governor’s Trophy 1963, 2º lugar Double Bridgehampton 500 Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1964, 2º lugar Double Bridgehampton 500 SR/Prototipos +1600cc Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1964, 2º lugar Nassau Trophy Clase 13/14 1964, 2º lugar Bridgehampton Double 500 SportsRacing +1600cc Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1965, 2º lugar 1000 kilómetros de Nürburgring Prototipos 2000cc Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1966, 2º lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos Prototipos +2000cc 1966, 2º lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos Prototipos 2000cc 1966, 2º lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos Gran Turismo 1967, 2º lugar Tasman Series Longford 1968, 2º lugar calificación Gran Premio de España F-1 1968, 2º lugar Brands Hatch F-1 1968, 2o lugar Gran Premio de Bélgica F-1 1968, 2º lugar Reto Mundial Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1968, 2º lugar Triple Corona Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1968, 2º lugar 1000 kilómetros de Spa Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1969, 2º lugar 1000 kilómetros de Spa Prototipos 3000cc Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1969, 2º lugar 1000 kilómetros de París 1969, 2º lugar 1000 kilómetros de París Prototipos 1969, 2º lugar 12 horas de Sebring Sports 5000cc Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1970, 2º lugar Targa Florio Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1970, 2º lugar Targa Florio Prototipos 3000 Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1970, 2º lugar Gran Premio de USA F-1 1970, 2º lugar calificación Gran Premio de Italia F-1 1970, 2º lugar 1000 kilómetros de Buenos Aires Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1971, 2º lugar 1000 kilómetros de Buenos Aires Sports Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1971, 2º lugar calificación Gran Premio de Holanda F-1 1971, 2º lugar Gran Premio de Holanda F-1 1971, 2º lugar Campeonato Mundial de Constructores F-1 1971, 2º lugar 12 Horas de Sebring Sports Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1971, 2º lugar 1000 kilómetros de Nürburgring Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1971, 2º lugar 1000 kilómetros de Nürburgring Prototipos 3000cc Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1971, 3er lugar Governor’s Trophy +2L 1959, 3er lugar Nassau Trophy Clase D 1959, 3er lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1959, 3er lugar USAC Fórmula Libre Lime Rock 1959, 3er lugar Targa Florio Sport 2000 Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1960, 3er lugar 12 horas de Sebring Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1961, 3er lugar 12 horas de Sebring Sports 3000 Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1961, 3er lugar Nassau Trophy 1961, 3er lugar Nassau Trophy Clase D 1961, 3er lugar Los Angeles Times GP de Riverside 1963, 3er lugar Los Angeles Times GP de Riverside +2.0 1963, 3er lugar 12 horas de Sebring 1963, 3er lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos GT División I 1963, 3er lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos GT Subdivisión 1000cc 1963, 3er lugar Nassau Trophy 1964, 3er lugar Canadian GP Mosport Canadian Sportscar Championship 1965, 3er lugar 1000 kilómetros de Nürburgring Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1966, 3er lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1966, 3er lugar 24 horas de Daytona Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1967, 3er lugar 24 horas de Daytona Prototipos +2000cc Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1967, 3er lugar 12 horas de Reims Prorotipos 2.0 1967, 3er lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1967, 3er lugar 6 horas de Brands Hatch Sports 5000cc Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1968, 3er lugar Gran Premio de Holanda F-1 1968, 3er lugar Gran Premio de Canadá F-1 1968, 3er lugar 200 milla de Norisring Interseries 1970, 3er lugar Riverside 200 Can-Am 1970, 3er lugar calificación Oulton Park F-1 1971, 4º lugar VI Circuito Avándaro 1958, 4º lugar Clase E Governor’s Trophy 1957, 4º lugar III Circuito Santa Ana 1958, 4º lugar Governor’s Trophy 1958, 4º lugar Carrera Clase C Ciudad de México 1961, 4º lugar 24 horas de LeMans Sports 3000 Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1961, 4º lugar 12 horas de Sebring Sports 3000cc Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1962, 4º lugar 24 horas de LeMans Prototipos +3000cc Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1963, 4º lugar 12 horas de Reims GT 3000cc Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1964, 4º lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos Prototipos 1964, 4º lugar VW GT &F-Vee Nassau Speed Weeks 1964, 4º lugar VW GT &F-Vee Categoría F-Vee Nassau Speed Weeks 1964, 4o lugar Governor’s Trophy 1964, 4º lugar 2000 kilómetros de Daytona Prototipos GT Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1964, 4º lugar 2000 kilómetros de Daytona Prototipos GT Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1964, 4º lugar 12 horas de Sebring SR Sport Racer Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1965, 4º lugar Campeonato Mundial de Constructores F-1 1965, 4º lugar 24 horas de Daytona Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1966, 4º lugar 24 horas de Daytona Prototipos +2000cc Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1966, 4º lugar Nassau Governor’s & Tourist Trophy Clase GT 1966, 4º lugar Brands Hatch F-1 1967, 4º lugar Goodwood F-1 1967, 4º lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1967, 4º lugar calificación Silvestone F-1 1968, 4º lugar Gran Premio de México F-1 1968, 4º lugar Oulton Park F-1 1968, 4º lugar 6 horas de Brands Hatch Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1969, 4º lugar 6 horas de Brands Hatch Prototipos 3000cc Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1969, 4º lugar 6 horas de Watkins Glen Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1969, 4º lugar 6 horas de Watkins Glen Prototipos 3000cc Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1969, 4º lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1969, 4º lugar 12 horas de Sebring Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1970, 4º lugar Gran Premio de Austria F-1 1970, 4º lugar Gran Premio de Canadá F-1 1970, 4º lugar 12 Horas de Sebring Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1971, 4º lugar Gran Premio de España F-1 1971, 4º lugar Silverstone F-1 1971, 5º lugar 24 Horas de LeMans Sport 2000 Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1958, 5º lugar 1000 kilómetros de Nürburgring Sport 2000 Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1960, 5º lugar Copa Vanderbilt 1960, 5º lugar 3 Horas de Daytona Sport 2500 Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1962, 5º lugar 12 horas de Sebring Sports 3000 Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1962, 5º lugar 1000 kilómetros de Nürburgring Sports 3000 Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1962, 5º lugar Charlotte 600 NASCAR Cup, 5º lugar Gran Premio de USA F-1 1965, 5º lugar 24 Horas de LeMans Prototipos 5000 Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1965, 5º lugar Campeonato Mundial de Constructores F-1 1966, 5º lugar 1000 kilómetros de Monza Prototipos +2000cc Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1967, 5º lugar Gran Premio de Mónaco F-1 1967, 5º lugar 6 horas de Brands Hatch Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1968, 5º lugar Gran Premio de Inglaterra F-1 1967, 5º lugar 12 horas de Sebring GT +5000cc Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1968, 5º lugar Campeonato Mundial de Constructores F-1 1968, 5º lugar Constructores Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos 1969, 5º lugar Bridgehampton 200 Can-Am 1969, 5º lugar Gran Premio de USA F-1 1969, 5º lugar Campeonato Mundial de Constructores F-1 1969, 5º lugar Laguna Seca 200 Can-Am 1970, 5º lugar Targa Florio Campeonato Mundial de Autos Deportivos Prototipos 3000cc 1971

Kristensen: The all tme most LeMans 24h winner
Icks: Reslts are almost as much as Pedro's
Moss: Ver hardly undefeated in his times
Belloff: He could go as fast as possible with the car going up running to the end (and has the Nürburgring Long track record by the way)

As TEJ said, I should have included Gendebien, agree ;)

Tazio Nuvolari
Tim Birkin
Raymond Sommer

The thing about Scott-Brown and Hansgen is that, although they were unbeatable in the races they contested, neither figures among the 'greats' of the true classic races

Originally posted by Simon Hadfield
Wot- no Derek Bell?

Wot about that bloke who clocked the fastest lap time at last year's Revival in a little Elva?

For those who know,have watched or read about sportscar racing these names do not need an explanation.

Stirling Moss
Olivier Gendebien,
Paul Frère
Phil Hill
Chris Amon
Dan Gurney
Masten Gregory

Originally posted by Rosemayer
For those who know,have watched or read about sportscar racing these names do not need an explanation.

Stirling Moss
Olivier Gendebien,
Paul Frère
Phil Hill
Chris Amon
Dan Gurney
Masten Gregory

I give up. Perhaps this thread belongs on RC.

Pete I apoligise for being short but I thought rour response was a bit childish.I checked your profile ane realized all the drivers on my list drove before you were born.

Originally posted by sterling49

Jo "Seppi" Siffert
Pedro Rodriguez
Vic Elford
Jacky Ickx
Stirling Moss

OK reasons for my choices:
Pedro because of watching him in the BOAC in the wet.......just amazing car control,if only that could be bottled! and the many other race victories he had and for sheer spirit. Watching Pedro exit Druids with the back end hanging right out, lap after lap, cars were spinning all over the place.... Pedro was wired that day ;)
Vic Elford for numerous brilliant drives (and wins) at the Nurburgring and great drives at the Targa Florio (including the lap record), having come to racing relatively late from International Rallying via Ford and Porsche.
Jacky Ickx....because of that great win in the GT40 (which was getting rather old) at Le Mans '69 over Hans Hermann's nimble and newer Porsche.........and all his other victories.
Seppi for being a racer and never letting Pedro "off easy" (memories of the 1st Lap at Spa when they were exchanging paint in the opening laps.)
Stirling for the Mille Miglia and that great competitive spirit.

I have seen all of these drivers racing, I think I would find it hard to pick out the best, they were all so very good.

Sterling

Originally posted by David McKinney
.....The thing about Scott-Brown and Hansgen is that, although they were unbeatable in the races they contested, neither figures among the 'greats' of the true classic races

Ironically, however, and depending on how 'classic' you think the Spa race is, both died on the 'classic' circuits and in conjunction with the 'classic' races.

Originally posted by Rosemayer
Pete I apoligise for being short but I thought rour response was a bit childish.I checked your profile ane realized all the drivers on my list drove before you were born.

What his profile doesn't show is that he is one the best posters on TNF...

Originally posted by Rosemayer
Pete I apoligise for being short but I thought rour response was a bit childish.I checked your profile ane realized all the drivers on my list drove before you were born.

Hmmn, now I understand your response, you were just a bairn when Pedro won at Brands! I am burning just a few more candles than you, so I saw all of my choices, it's a pity that not all the members reveal their age, it's only a number and it is useful in cases like this

Originally posted by sterling49


OK reasons for my choices:
Pedro because of watching him in the BOAC in the wet.......just amazing car control,if only that could be bottled! and the many other race victories he had and for sheer spirit. Watching Pedro exit Druids with the back end hanging right out, lap after lap, cars were spinning all over the place.... Pedro was wired that day ;)
Vic Elford for numerous brilliant drives (and wins) at the Nurburgring and great drives at the Targa Florio (including the lap record), having come to racing relatively late from International Rallying via Ford and Porsche.
Jacky Ickx....because of that great win in the GT40 (which was getting rather old) at Le Mans '69 over Hans Hermann's nimble and newer Porsche.........and all his other victories.
Seppi for being a racer and never letting Pedro "off easy" (memories of the 1st Lap at Spa when they were exchanging paint in the opening laps.)
Stirling for the Mille Miglia and that great competitive spirit.

I have seen all of these drivers racing, I think I would find it hard to pick out the best, they were all so very good.

Sterling

All excellent drivers, and excellent memories. But what is so different about driving a car with the wheels covered, while sitting somewhat off centre? In my view the debate is just as daft as the discussions we have had here about "best drivers in the wet". The best racing drivers are the best racing drivers.

Originally posted by sterling49
.....it's a pity that not all the members reveal their age, it's only a number and it is useful in cases like this

Would it help if I said I saw most of the drivers mentioned race?

Definitely excluding David McKinney's choices, however...

Originally posted by David Beard


All excellent drivers, and excellent memories. But what is so different about driving a car with the wheels covered, while sitting somewhat off centre? In my view the debate is just as daft as the discussions we have had here about "best drivers in the wet". The best racing drivers are the best racing drivers.

It IS different, you need differente qualities in these kinds of races, some drivers don't make it the same on those types of cars, you can´t compare for example a Sprint A1 race with the 24 hours of LeMans, it's not the same to drive a prototype than an F1

Originally posted by David Beard


All excellent drivers, and excellent memories. But what is so different about driving a car with the wheels covered, while sitting somewhat off centre? In my view the debate is just as daft as the discussions we have had here about "best drivers in the wet". The best racing drivers are the best racing drivers.

None David, but daalo asked the question, and these are my choices. I would have given a different list if the question had been for a different category, but daalo requested "Sportscar Racers". There are great drivers in most Formula, this happened to be "closed wheel, off centre seating cars". Jim Clark IMHO is both my choice of Best Driver and Favourite driver, however his performance in Lotus 30's and 40's did not register too highly because of his poor equipment. I could not list Jim in, say a 917, when he did not race in them, he was off my "radar". But he is still my choice of both best and favourite driver, hope this helps.


Sterling

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Would it help if I said I saw most of the drivers mentioned race?

Definitely excluding David McKinney's choices, however...

Yes Ray, most definitely, gives members an idea of how old you might be...depending upon when you attended your 1st race meeting ;)

Originally posted by Rosemayer
Pete I apoligise for being short but I thought rour response was a bit childish.I checked your profile ane realized all the drivers on my list drove before you were born.

The whole age argument is fatuous since views are always so subjective. In terms of age, you are 6 months younger than I, so does that prove anything? Does it mean that I should not have Nuvolari as a hero even though I have only seen him race on film? (BTW excellent tribute video available from the Nuvolari Museo in Mantova)

If we are talking age, I wish the originator of this rivetting thread a happy 15th birthday on March 6 this year.

We will be voting for the best book of the year next.................... again, so subjective.

Roger Lund.

Bellof - Moss - Nuvolari - Rodriguez - Siffert

you must not argue

I'll qualify my selection by saying "racing on real roads" not purpose-built tracks in cars related to road cars .

Tazio Nuvolari - principally the Mille Miglia
Fangio - the Carrera, the 1952 Mille Miglia, and the cross country South American races which were in the spirit of true sports car races
Stirling Moss - If you apply 8. 6. 4 points he emerges as champion for about five years (I've seen the figures but forget where)
Jacky Ickx and Derek Bell - purely on their Le Mans performances
Nino Vacarella - the Targa
Sebastien Loeb - because modern rallying is closer to the spirit of 'real' sports car racing
Walt Hangsgen - to keep Don quiet and give USAC racing a mention
Duncan Hamilton - for also writing about it

Can I take it that we all agree that 'sports cars' do not have roofs? (Serious question - the GT40 is not a sports car. Yes?) Cars with roofs ( think that's right, rooves being the the coppoer washer things you put over a copper nail when building a traditionally constructed wood boat) are touring cars. Yes?

If that's the context, the discussion possibly becomes more meaningful, since we're talking the same sort of car.

And if we further agree we're talking road racing, as opposed to airfield or track racing, of sports cars (which is what I - currently half way through Chris Nixon's Sports Car Heaven - think of as true sports car racing) then surely Moss has to be in a league of his own. Not even Fangio, by the latter's own admission, was the better of Moss (which is not to say Fangio did not beat Moss occasionally in sports cars, which he did of course on many occassions).

In the context, then, it is surely right to include Archie - plus Tony Brooks and Roy Salvadori. One then moves into the field of 'gentleman drivers': Duncan Hamilton, Tony Rolt. Duncan Hamilton surely has to be considered, too.

Maybe I am being too narrow in my view - but for me. sports car racing means proper sports cars, or sports-racing prototypes, racing on real road circuits, not round tracks. And this is a form of motor racing that surely died with the last (real) Mille Miglia and Targa Florio races. Track racing of cars, without or without roofs, is as different as is modern F1 from 'real' Grand Prix, and thus cannot really be compared. Pace, circuits such as Spa and Nurburgring. Nor do I think Le Mans sees real sports cars racing, nor has it since the Sixties.

(There is a wonderful, contemporary, quote in Nixon's book from Tony Brooks: don't have the book here to quote it verbatim, but in essence (Brooks is discussing Spa, as it happens) that gentle genius says 'road racing is the only real motor racing - not finding yourself going round the same stupid corner every minute-and-a half')

Standing by to be blown away, again.

D-type - your post appreared as I was writing mine - but I believe we are ad idem on this one. Not for the first time.

Originally posted by sterling49
Yes Ray, most definitely, gives members an idea of how old you might be...depending upon when you attended your 1st race meeting

Sixteen... and the date of that's well recorded on this forum...

Apart from that, there was a thread about ages of posters that you could dig up if you wanted. I started it back in the very early days. 'What age are you?' I think it was titled.

Originally posted by Mal9444
D-type - your post appreared as I was writing mine - but I believe we are ad idem on this one. Not for the first time.

But you said it better.

We both forgot "Capable of being driven to the race meeting"

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Sixteen... and the date of that's well recorded on this forum...

Apart from that, there was a thread about ages of posters that you could dig up if you wanted. I started it back in the very early days. 'What age are you?' I think it was titled.

Good stuff Ray, I am a newbie, joined in Sept, so I still have not managed to look through all of the many threads, if I knew about the TNF, believe me, I would have joined earlier as I have been on line at home since 1996 for reasons of work. I enjoy shooting the breeze with other like minded people.

I will look for that thread over the week-end, thanks

Originally posted by D-Type
[B]Walt Hangsgen - to keep Don quiet and give USAC racing a mention
/B]

Ummmm, Walt HANSGEN principally drove in SCCA.

Next: Your Top 100 "Best ... " lists.

Originally posted by sterling49
Good stuff Ray, I am a newbie, joined in Sept, so I still have not managed to look through all of the many threads, if I knew about the TNF, believe me, I would have joined earlier as I have been on line at home since 1996 for reasons of work. I enjoy shooting the breeze with other like minded people.

Oh... so that's why we missed you for so long?

Wonder if there's still anyone else out there who hasn't heard of us?

What's a bit sad is the number who've dropped off...

Originally posted by Hugo Boecker
Bellof - Moss - Nuvolari - Rodriguez - Siffert

you must not argue

see my sig:

/

RA Historian:

D-type must be referring to the 2 or 3 Indy 500s that Walt did. Those are the only USAC races he did to my knowledge.

Originally posted by RA Historian
Ummmm, Walt HANSGEN principally drove in SCCA.

I think that's what I meant.

[Memo to self - add Mike Argetsinger's book to my birthday list]


Well, that's this month's signature justification out of the way

Originally posted by David M. Kane
D-type must be referring to the 2 or 3 Indy 500s that Walt did. Those are the only USAC races he did to my knowledge.

Walt also did the Riverside and Laguna Seca USAC road races in the early 60s. But other than those eight or ten plus the odd race in Europe and the occasional one-off, he drove almost exclusively in SCCA. Probably well over 95% of his races.

D-type: Yes, by all means get Mike Argetsinger's book. It is excellent!

Originally posted by D-Type
Stirling Moss - If you apply 8. 6. 4 points he emerges as champion for about five years (I've seen the figures but forget where)

Intrigued by this statement I checked who collected the most points in WSCC races in the fifties and a bit further (for the 62-65 period I choose those long distance races where the prototype category could start) if you apply the 8-6-4 etc point system in fifties and of course 9-6-4 in the sixties (source: http://wsrp.ic.cz/wsc.html)

1953: 1. Farina 16 ; 2.Fangio, Parnell 14
1954: 1. Maglioli, Trintignant 14 ; 3. Farina, Moss, Lloyd, Ascari, Gonzalez, Hawthorn 8
1955: 1. Moss 25 ; 2. Fangio 18; 3. Hawthorn 16
1956: 1. Castelotti 22 ; 2. Ph Hill 18; 3. Fangio 17
1957: 1. Collins 25 ; 2. Behra, Moss 22
1958: 1. Gendebien 32 ; 2. Ph Hill 30; 3. Collins 25
1959: 1. Ph Hill, Gendebien 18 ; 3. Moss, Fairman, Shelby 16
1960: 1. Gendebien 26 ; 2. Hermann 19; 3. Ph Hill, Bonnier 18
1961: 1. Gendebien 31 ; 2. von Trips 19; 3. Ph Hill 18
1962: 1. Gendebien 33 ; 2. Ph Hill 30; 3. R. Rodriguez 24
1963: 1. Bandini 30 ; 2. Scarfiotti 24; 3. Mairesse 21
1964: 1. Gr Hill (!) 33 ; 2. Bonnier 26; 3. Vaccarella 24
1965: 1. Surtees 21 ; 2. K Miles 19; 3. Sharp, Guichet 18
1966: 1. K Miles 24 ; 2. Ruby, Parkes 18
1967: 1. Amon 24 ; 2. Scarfiotti 22; 3. Siffert 21
1968: 1. Hermann 38 ; 2. Siffert, Elford 37
1969: 1. Siffert 54 ; 2. Redman 49; 3. Ahrens 27
1970: 1. P Rodriguez, Kinnunen 45 ; 3. Siffert, Redman 42
1971: 1. P Rodriguez 51 ; 2. De Adamich 41; 3. Siffert 39

So that four/five time championship is not based on the WSCC races.
Not that it makes Stirling a lesser driver....