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A few more F1 picture mysteries

Started by Paul Taylor , Feb 08 2007 03:50

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23 replies to this topic

#1 Paul Taylor

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 03:50

This book has let me down several times now and it's about to do it again.

Adolfo J. Schwelm Cruz, 1953 Argentine GP. Fair enough

But erm...if that's Schwelm Cruz, then who the hell is this? :eek:

Same car, same number, same corner on the same circuit, different paint job, different driver? :confused:

And what about this one? The book said it was Paul Pietsch at Monza in 1950...Er, yeah, except that's an AFM, not a Maserati 4CLT/48 and that's not Mr. Pietsch standing in front of the car holding his goggles! :confused:

I've ended up labelling it at Theo Fitzau, 1953 German GP because it's the only thing that fits. Notice how the front left wheel has been removed and fluid is leaking from the front left corner of the car. Maybe uechtel or someone can confirm:

Posted Image

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#2 Ted Walker

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 08:38

I would say the second photo was of Mike Hawthorn.;*I assume that these phpotographs have been reproduced with the publishers consent ??????

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#3 Paul Taylor

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 19:44

Sorry, I shall remove them and therefore never find out when/where the photos were taken and of whom.

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#4 Rob G

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 01:10

Paul, in his book "A-Z of Formula Racing Cars," David Hodges identified the car in the last photo as an AFM driven by Hans Stuck. It has an identical paint scheme and race number, and the driver does look like Stuck. The only match I can find with Stuck and #28 is Marseilles in 1952, but the photo shows the bottom half of a sign with the words "Motor Oil" on it, so it might be one of the British races where a list of car numbers hasn't yet been unearthed.

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#5 Rob G

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 01:30

As for the top two photos, it's quite a mystery, isn't it? A book I have identifies the second photo as Schwelm Cruz, but my guess would be that he's actually in the top photo, while his teammate John Barber is the dark-bonneted driver in the dark-bonneted car.

Another photo in the book shows Barber in the #22 car and wearing a dark-colored helmet like what we see here in the second photo. Also, race day was hot and dry, so the picture could not have been taken during the GP as the track appears damp. Barber drove a Cooper T23 in the race instead of the T20s that Schwelm Cruz and Brown had, so maybe he practiced in the T20.

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#6 rudi

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 19:25

Both Schelm Cruz photos are from practice.
During the race he wore also a dark helmet and the car was as on the second image.

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#7 humphries

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 19:48

It could be that the photo of Schwelm Cruz was taken during the IX Buenos Aires GP held on 1 February, 1953 at the Autodromo using the slightly longer No 4 circuit ( the Argentine GP was held on the No 2 circuit). The same three Coopers were entered using the same race numbers as for the World Championship event and Cruz definitely had the light-coloured bonnet in this race. (Photo in Autosport). The F2s were joined by a motley collection of supercharged Maseratis and Alfa Romeos. Farina won from Villoresi in 2.5 engined Ferraris and Barber was 12th, five laps down on the winner. Both Schwelm Cruz and Brown retired with broken crankshafts.

Whoever it is in the rain, he was driving during the practice session for the Argentine GP, a fortnight earlier, and without the light-coloured bonnet. It poured down.

John

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#8 David McKinney

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 20:15

Originally posted by humphries
The same three Coopers were entered using the same race numbers as for the World Championship event and Cruz definitely had the light-coloured bonnet in this race. (Photo in Autosport).

With respect, I don't think the Autosport photo purporting to be from the BA GP is any proof. It was not unknown for photos from an earlier race to be used as illustration, especially if the races were a long way from home. It certainly happened in later years with Australian and New Zealand race coverage in UK publications. Admittedly the caption would usually acknowledge this - but not always

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#9 Doug Nye

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 21:37

I think the dark helmeted driver is in fact Alan Brown, probably shaking down the car for Schwelm or giving it a run after the local driver has complained about something, to show that there's nothing wrong with it if you know how to drive...

DCN

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#10 rudi

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 06:11

Schwelm Cruz wore a dark helmet in both argentine races. So the driver on the first photo could be Trintignant (same helmet and in trouble with Gordini between the two races).
Brown's helmet was not so dark:
Posted Image

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#11 Doug Nye

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 08:36

Good points - but facially the light-helmeted driver does not appear to resemble Trintignant. Again off the top of my head wasn't Iglesias reserve driver for this car alongside Schwelm????? Is this he?

DCN

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#12 David McKinney

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 09:53

I don't think Iglesias was that tall
Like Ted Walker, I think it looks more like recently-retired Cooper-Bristol driver Hawthorn than anyone else

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#13 humphries

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 12:58

David

The Autosport report of the Buenos Aires GP by Dr Vicente Alvarez was fairly comprehensive and I do not think he would have slipped in a photo from the Argentine GP along with the other four BAGP photos. In any case there is a photo in Autocar showing the cars and drivers lined up at the Argentine GP before being presented to President Peron. All the Cooper-Bristols had matching dark bonnets. During this race Cruz spun off into the unruly crowd when a stub axle broke, injuring two spectators. It is possible the bonnet was damaged and it was resprayed a different colour for the BA GP.

Doug

Schwelm Cruz was either a quick learner and/or Brown was a good teacher as Brown qualified for the Argentine GP with a time of 2' 03.2 and Schwelm Cruz was only 0.5 seconds slower. This was a one-off drive for the Argentine whereas Brown had had a whole season pedalling a Cooper-Bristol. In the race Schwelm Cruz overtook Brown on lap 10 and was comfortably ahead when he had his accident on lap 21.

At the BA GP meeting Schwelm Cruz was one of the heroes of the day when in the sports car race he put his ancient Alfa Romeo Monza in amongst the Ferraris, including a batch of newly imported cars, finishing 4th.

John

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#14 Paul Taylor

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 22:27

Originally posted by Rob G
Paul, in his book "A-Z of Formula Racing Cars," David Hodges identified the car in the last photo as an AFM driven by Hans Stuck. It has an identical paint scheme and race number, and the driver does look like Stuck. The only match I can find with Stuck and #28 is Marseilles in 1952, but the photo shows the bottom half of a sign with the words "Motor Oil" on it, so it might be one of the British races where a list of car numbers hasn't yet been unearthed.

Hmmm...I know the photo you're referring to, but based on that, I don't think it looks like Stuck at all and he is quite recognisable.

As for the Schwelm Cruz picture, there's a picture of him at the back of The Complete Book Of Formula 1 and he's wearing a leather-cap style helmet and it's dark. There's a picture of the start of the 1953 Argentine GP in the same book and you can see quite a few Cooper T20s and one of the drivers has a white helmet and a white shirt, but you can't see the numbers on the cars. All of the other Cooper T20 drivers have dark helmets.

I think we can rule out that the second photo wasn't taken during the 1953 Argentine GP, regardless of who's driving?

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#15 rudi

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 06:50

Schwelm Cruz again.
The first image shows Schwelm Cruz during the Buenos Aires GP practice. He wore the same helmet on other races (BA 1000 km 1955 in a gordini). In the race the car had also the white bonnet but the driver wore his dark helmet.
The other photo is during Argentine GP practice. Schwelm Cruz with the dark helmet he used for the race.
There is a good photo from the start of the race with Cooper #20 and #24 in the Ludvigsen book Alberto Ascari.
Image of the Cooper cars and drivers just before the Argentine GP:
Posted Image

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#16 Otto Grabe

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 10:17

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paul Taylor
[B]

I don't think it looks like Stuck at all and he is quite recognisable.

I agree, but it is his AFM. What do you think about Monza 1950 and Willi Krakau the guy in front of the car? His car wore # 26. Maybe pit neighbours?

http://www.forix.com...-aa-monza50.jpg

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#17 humphries

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 10:39

Hans Stuck raced an AFM at Monza in the III Gran Premio Dell'Autodromo di Monza, 28 May, 1950 and his number was 28, but like Otto says the man in front of the car does not look like Stuck.

John

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#18 rudi

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 07:47

Hans Stuck Autodrome GP 1950:
Posted Image

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#19 Hugo Boecker

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Posted 13 February 2007 - 10:48

http://img460.images...erfitzauuz5.jpg
The picture is from the 1950 Autodrom GP and shows Stuck AFM. The man in white overalls in front of the car is the other German in the race Willy Krakau who drove #20 a BMW special.

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#20 Hugo Boecker

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Posted 13 February 2007 - 10:59

Originally posted by Paul Taylor
This book has let me down several times now and it's about to do it again.

Adolfo J. Schwelm Cruz, 1953 Argentine GP. Fair enough

But erm...if that's Schwelm Cruz, then who the hell is this?

Same car, same number, same corner on the same circuit, different paint job, different driver?

I don't think these picture are taken at the same spot!
On pic 2 there is a tree in the background you cann't spot on pic 1. And I don't thinks it depends on the angle of view.
The pole on the second pic has no flag.
The building, although not clearly visible, are not the same.
Maybe it's BA but not the same spot

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#21 Otto Grabe

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Posted 13 February 2007 - 14:57

Originally posted by Hugo Boecker
...Willy Krakau who drove #20 a BMW special. [/B]

I don't know the starting numbers of the Autodromo GP but a photo of Willi Krakau and his car shows clearly a 26.

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#22 humphries

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Posted 13 February 2007 - 19:20

According to the entry list I have Krakau was #26 and Franco Bordoni in Luigi Plate's Talbot 700 in another of its many guises was #20.

John

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#23 Paul Jeffrey

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Posted 13 February 2007 - 21:21

Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere but does anyone have the definitive account of what really happened during the 1953 Argentine Grand Prix. In my mind this ranks with May 1st 1994 as one of the darkest days in the history of Grand Prix racing.

Accounts seem very hazy. Estimates of the numbers pouring into the Buenos Aires aerodrome vary wildly but it is clear from pictures that spectators lined the track, obscuring the view of drivers. The inevitable accident, when Farina spun, was officially claimed to have accounted for the lives of ten spectators but some accounts suggest many more. Alan Brown - I think - quoted in Autosport a few years back, gave a very lurid account, much worse than the official story. There is also Mike Hawthorn's account in Challenge me the Race' which also paints a gruesome picture. Indded in one incident Hawthorn refers to Schwelm's Cooper, a wheel coming loose and injuring several bystanders.