GRAC was Group de Recherches Automobile de Course in Valence, France, run by Serge Asiomanoff. The company became Veglia-GRAC at some point.
I'm trying to assemble a list of GRAC model numbers. So far:
MT1 - ?
MT2 - ?
MT3 - ?
MT4 - ?
MT5 - Formula France 1968
MT6 - Formula France 1969
MT7 - ?
MT8 and MT8A - Formula 3 1969
MT9 - Hillclimb (course de cote) 1969 (2 built, one for Maublanc)
MT10 - Formula France 1969 (Dennis Dayan)
MT11 - Formula 3 1970
MT12 - Simca sports?
MT14 - Sports car but the MT14B may have been a F3?!?
MT15 - Renault kit car??
MT16 - 2-litre Sports 1972?
MT17 - ?
MT18 - ?
MT19 - ?
MT20 - Sports racing 1974
There was also a GRAC F2 special for Frequelin to use in hillclimbs in 1973 which may explain one of those numbers in the teens.
At some later point there was a GRAC MT30 sportscar.
Can anyone add anything?
Allen
GRAC model numbers
Started by
Allen Brown
, Mar 03 2007 12:20
290 replies to this topic
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#2
Hieronymus
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Posted 03 March 2007 - 12:47
Originally posted by Allen Brown
MT14 - Sports car but the MT14B may have been a F3?!?
I have a photo that shows Claude Swietlik in a barquette GRAC MT14B
#3
Allen Brown
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Posted 03 March 2007 - 13:25
The MT14 and MT14B designation is quote an oddity. I've found where GRAC announce the cars (Echappement Sep 1971 p8) and the MT14 is a single-seater (monoplace) and the MT14B a sports racer with the 'B' standing for Barquette. The MT15 is also announced as a Berlinette available in kit form with Renault mechanicals.
Allen
Allen
#4
HEROS
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Posted 03 March 2007 - 13:42
Here is a picture of the GRAC MT 14 seen at a racing car show :
MT 14 B and MT 14 S were the designation of sportscars with an example of a MT 14 S below :
The MT designation was a tribute to Maurice Trintignant.
MT 14 B and MT 14 S were the designation of sportscars with an example of a MT 14 S below :
The MT designation was a tribute to Maurice Trintignant.
#5
Hieronymus
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Posted 03 March 2007 - 13:43
Swietlik in the MT14B at Nogaro on 8 Aug 1971.
#7
macoran
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Posted 03 March 2007 - 17:17
Allen,
poster named Verstappen has a thread here on his MT20
maybe of interest, and maybe you'll find links to other info
http://forums.motorl...ad.php?p=382056
poster named Verstappen has a thread here on his MT20
maybe of interest, and maybe you'll find links to other info
http://forums.motorl...ad.php?p=382056
#8
Gerard Gamand
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Posted 03 March 2007 - 17:26
Here is the documentation for the first GRAC MT14 monoplace who was sold in "kit" !!
#9
Gerard Gamand
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Posted 03 March 2007 - 17:29
And the Formula 3 of 1966 with Max Jean at the wheel (and not Jean Max) :
#10
Hieronymus
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Posted 03 March 2007 - 17:29
Interesting stuff!
Here's a MT5 on ebay if you wish to purchase:
http://cgi.ebay.fr/V...9QQcmdZViewItem
Here's a MT5 on ebay if you wish to purchase:
http://cgi.ebay.fr/V...9QQcmdZViewItem
#11
humphries
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Posted 03 March 2007 - 19:34
Allen
I think that the first four GRAC models were all F3 cars, the first appearing in 1964. At least I cannot find GRACs between 1964-1967 in any other category, and the few appearances on the hills were by the F3 cars......I believe!
John
I think that the first four GRAC models were all F3 cars, the first appearing in 1964. At least I cannot find GRACs between 1964-1967 in any other category, and the few appearances on the hills were by the F3 cars......I believe!
John
#12
Hieronymus
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Posted 03 March 2007 - 19:39
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Allen Brown
[B]
At some later point there was a GRAC MT30 sportscar.
Was the MT30 not a Formula Renault car...built in 1975??
[B]
At some later point there was a GRAC MT30 sportscar.
Was the MT30 not a Formula Renault car...built in 1975??
#14
T54
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Posted 03 March 2007 - 20:18
The proper spelling is Serge Aziosmanoff. Serge is of Ukranian origins. As far as I recall, the MT1 to MT4 were cobbled up one-offs open-wheel F3 cars, before the Formula France concept launched by Jose Rosinski and Gerard Crombac from their Sport Auto and Champion magazines.
#15
Team Gunston
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Posted 03 March 2007 - 21:08
Originally posted by HEROS
Here is a picture of the GRAC MT 14 seen at a racing car show :
MT 14 B and MT 14 S were the designation of sportscars with an example of a MT 14 S below :
The MT designation was a tribute to Maurice Trintignant.
-MT14B : I confirm that the B stands for Barquette. It was used as a "works" car only.
- MT14S : the S stands for Simca, as it was the JRD-powered, customer version, built and sold for 1973 Coupe Simca-Shell purposes.
There was also a car called the Cesca-Grac 740 that appeared in the 1974 Coupe Simca-Shell (driven by Michel Pignard if I remember well) and that was still running in the French Group 6 Championship in the 80s. But I don't know the type on which this special was based (MT14S or MT20 ?).
#16
Gerard Gamand
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Posted 03 March 2007 - 22:15
Here is the prototype GRAC MT8 F3 in private testing on the Luc track, with the two drivers : Phillipe Vidal nearest the camera and Max Jean waiting.
The pic is not good and I scan in reverse. I do better next time !
The pic is not good and I scan in reverse. I do better next time !
#17
starlet
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Posted 03 March 2007 - 22:53
Better like this, Gérard !
Yes, a half-compartment sold on kit for a Renault circa 1972.Originally posted by Allen Brown
MT15 - Renault kit car??
The MT30 was a Formule Renault. The last single-seater buit by GRAC in 1975.Originally posted by Allen Brown
At some later point there was a GRAC MT30 sportscar.
#18
Allen Brown
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Posted 03 March 2007 - 23:03
Looking at Formula 3 results, the MT prefix may have come in with the MT5. I see mention of a GRAC 3 in 1966 F3. So it may be:
GRAC 1 - Formula 3 1964
GRAC 2 - Formula 3 1965
GRAC 3 - Formula 3 1966
GRAC 4 - Formula 3 1967??
Allen
GRAC 1 - Formula 3 1964
GRAC 2 - Formula 3 1965
GRAC 3 - Formula 3 1966
GRAC 4 - Formula 3 1967??
Allen
#19
M Needforspeed
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Posted 03 March 2007 - 23:50
The Formula Libra car used too for F3 at Magny Cours " 3 jours" in May 1967
source : Sport auto
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#20
francoisb123
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Posted 04 March 2007 - 08:22
No "MT prefix" before the "Valence gang" met Maurice Trintignant (MT) who helped them to find money and to be more known into the racing world...
#21
Hieronymus
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Posted 04 March 2007 - 08:54
Originally posted by Allen Brown
MT16 - 2-litre Sports 1972?
Lionel Noghes and Christian Mons were non-starters at Le Mans 24 H in 1972 in a GRAC MT16 powered by a Ford Cosworth FVC 1790cc engine.
#22
Gerard Gamand
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Posted 04 March 2007 - 09:34
Thanks Starlet
How can I do a so good job ?? I'm not a specialist of scan...
How can I do a so good job ?? I'm not a specialist of scan...
#23
gerard BARATHIEU
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Posted 04 March 2007 - 10:34
I hope the scan will be goog this time !!!
here is two F3 GRAC.
the one with the number 25 was at ALBI in september 1969.
it was MAX jean.
The other one in orange color and n°1 was the car GRAC MT 11 from 1970.
#24
Hieronymus
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Posted 04 March 2007 - 10:44
Nice pics, the two Gerards! I've always wondered what Ph. Vidal looks like.
So what have we here...? A GRAC that slept near a Lotus 7??!!
So what have we here...? A GRAC that slept near a Lotus 7??!!
#25
Gerard Gamand
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Posted 04 March 2007 - 10:58
superbe Gérard !
For the name of the driver Max Jean : le prénom est Max et le nom de famaille est JEAN. The press o the period has always make the mistake.
Here a very rare pic of Serge Aziosmanoff (The patron) at the wheel of the firts GRAC 1, formula 3 built early in the year of 1964.
For the name of the driver Max Jean : le prénom est Max et le nom de famaille est JEAN. The press o the period has always make the mistake.
Here a very rare pic of Serge Aziosmanoff (The patron) at the wheel of the firts GRAC 1, formula 3 built early in the year of 1964.
#26
Gerard Gamand
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Posted 04 March 2007 - 11:14
the first page of he documentation on the GRAC MT14 "do it yourself".
The drawing of the chassis is a litle amateur !
The price for the all kit except engine and box was about less than 1.100€ !!
The drawing of the chassis is a litle amateur !
The price for the all kit except engine and box was about less than 1.100€ !!
#27
macoran
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Posted 04 March 2007 - 12:20
I'll bet that is a very interesting little manual Gerard !
#28
Hieronymus
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Posted 04 March 2007 - 12:55
Originally posted by Gerard Gamand
For the name of the driver Max Jean : le prénom est Max et le nom de famaille est JEAN. The press o the period has always make the mistake.
...confusion perhaps also due to the way the French sometimes write their names on documents. Surname first, name second...
#29
Gerard Gamand
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Posted 04 March 2007 - 15:58
Here is the beautiful GRAC MT5 drived by Max Jean in 1968. It was the firts time that a GRAC was with the MT sufix.
#30
Gerard Gamand
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Posted 04 March 2007 - 16:09
At the end of 68 season, GRAC presented the prototype of the GRAC MT6 for Formule France 1969 season :
#31
Hieronymus
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Posted 04 March 2007 - 16:52
Who is the driver of the FFrance MT6 in the picture? Denis Dayan?
Any idea what the car is in post 24? One can read the name GRAC on the nose...
Any idea what the car is in post 24? One can read the name GRAC on the nose...
#32
Allen Brown
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Posted 04 March 2007 - 17:31
I just noticed that Formula France was new for 1968. What was it exactly? I have seen quite a few F/France cars appearing in the early 1970s with 1296cc Renault Gordini engines (as in the Alpine A110?) but was that the original engine?
And there was Formula Renault which started in 1971 - was that Formula France renamed? And Formula Bleue was round at the same time but I think that was just a 'spec racer' series for novices.
Allen
And there was Formula Renault which started in 1971 - was that Formula France renamed? And Formula Bleue was round at the same time but I think that was just a 'spec racer' series for novices.
Allen
#33
Hieronymus
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Posted 04 March 2007 - 18:01
Our friends at Pygmee used a Renault Gordini R1135 as powerplant for their first FFrance car in 1968.
#34
Hieronymus
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Posted 04 March 2007 - 18:11
Originally posted by Allen Brown
I just noticed that Formula France was new for 1968. What was it exactly?
It was described as "formule de promotion sur monoplace". The following cars were prominent:
Alpine, Esca, Martini, Pygmee, Elina, Hrubon and GRAC.
#35
Gerard Gamand
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Posted 04 March 2007 - 18:11
Allen
At the end of the sixties there were many projects in France for created a national category of monoplaces for the young drivers.
During some years a "Formula IV" with little 250 cc was on progress
Then a "Formula Bleue" was also in project with Maurice-Emile Pezous (MEP) a Citroen concessionnaire of Albi, who built a monoplace with a Panhard 850 cc engine.
Then Renault proposed a new category the "Formule France" who would be able to use the R8 Gordini engine (version Groupe 1) of 1300 cc.
This was this concept that FFSA choose and the new formule begin in 1968.
Immediatly a lot of constructeurs like Grac, Jefa, Alpine, Elina, AGS, Martini etc...proposed a monoplace for sale.
The first ready in 1968 was GRAC with a strong "works" team of GRAC MT5 and a really good driver Max JEAN. They win the first championship.
They do the same in 69 with the GRAC MT6 and the very late Denis Dayan
In 1970 it was François Lacarau with a Pygmée MDB14 and a Martini at the end of the season.
For 1971 all the rule changed because the R8 Gordini stop his career and Renault want to promote the new R12 Gordini 1600cc. The name of the game change for "Formule Renault" and "works" teams was numerous.
Michel Leclere win the title on a Alpine in 1971
Jacques Laffite on a Martini in 1972
Alain Cudini on an Alpine in 1973
René Arnoux on a Martini in 1974
New change for 1975 with the creation of the "Formule Renault Europe" with wings and very much like F3 cars.
René Arnoux again on a Martini in 1975
Didier Pironi win on a Martini in 1976
Alain Prost on a Martini in 1977
During this three years Renault keep also a "National category".
The final change came in 1978 with an unique "Formule Renault"
Philippe Alliot win on a Martini in 1978
Alain Ferté win on a Martini in 1979
Denis Morin on a Martini in 1980
At the end of the sixties there were many projects in France for created a national category of monoplaces for the young drivers.
During some years a "Formula IV" with little 250 cc was on progress
Then a "Formula Bleue" was also in project with Maurice-Emile Pezous (MEP) a Citroen concessionnaire of Albi, who built a monoplace with a Panhard 850 cc engine.
Then Renault proposed a new category the "Formule France" who would be able to use the R8 Gordini engine (version Groupe 1) of 1300 cc.
This was this concept that FFSA choose and the new formule begin in 1968.
Immediatly a lot of constructeurs like Grac, Jefa, Alpine, Elina, AGS, Martini etc...proposed a monoplace for sale.
The first ready in 1968 was GRAC with a strong "works" team of GRAC MT5 and a really good driver Max JEAN. They win the first championship.
They do the same in 69 with the GRAC MT6 and the very late Denis Dayan
In 1970 it was François Lacarau with a Pygmée MDB14 and a Martini at the end of the season.
For 1971 all the rule changed because the R8 Gordini stop his career and Renault want to promote the new R12 Gordini 1600cc. The name of the game change for "Formule Renault" and "works" teams was numerous.
Michel Leclere win the title on a Alpine in 1971
Jacques Laffite on a Martini in 1972
Alain Cudini on an Alpine in 1973
René Arnoux on a Martini in 1974
New change for 1975 with the creation of the "Formule Renault Europe" with wings and very much like F3 cars.
René Arnoux again on a Martini in 1975
Didier Pironi win on a Martini in 1976
Alain Prost on a Martini in 1977
During this three years Renault keep also a "National category".
The final change came in 1978 with an unique "Formule Renault"
Philippe Alliot win on a Martini in 1978
Alain Ferté win on a Martini in 1979
Denis Morin on a Martini in 1980
#36
philippe charuest
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Posted 04 March 2007 - 18:15
the Formule France series was create in 68 by the FFSA as a answer to the formula ford it was like the formula ford a spec series for the engine and gb .the mandatory engine was from the renault 8 gordini 1300cc, in 1972(or maybe 71 im not so sure ) Renault took over the whole operation and it was rename Formule Renault , the formule bleue or mep was another series with 850cc panhard engine p.s oops it look that gerard did a much better and more complete answer to your questionsOriginally posted by Allen Brown
I just noticed that Formula France was new for 1968. What was it exactly? I have seen quite a few F/France cars appearing in the early 1970s with 1296cc Renault Gordini engines (as in the Alpine A110?) but was that the original engine?
And there was Formula Renault which started in 1971 - was that Formula France renamed? And Formula Bleue was round at the same time but I think that was just a 'spec racer' series for novices.
Allen
#37
macoran
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Posted 04 March 2007 - 18:17
Originally posted by Allen Brown
And Formula Bleue was round at the same time but I think that was just a 'spec racer' series for novices.
Allen
Some Formule Bleue info here, MEP X27 with the Citroen GS flat 4 engine.Launched 1971
http://www.patan.nl/bijz_citroens.htm
http://www.gs-gsa.org/?p=mep
Panhard engined MEP X2 for sale
http://www.carandcla...o.uk/car/C07517
#38
Gerard Gamand
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Posted 04 March 2007 - 18:28
Here is the GRAC MT10 Formule France of 1970. The "works" car was drived by the late Roger Dubos.
The same year Denis Dayan was killed on the Rouen track at the wheel of the very similar GRAC MT11 Formula 3. It was the begining of the end for GRAC...
The same year Denis Dayan was killed on the Rouen track at the wheel of the very similar GRAC MT11 Formula 3. It was the begining of the end for GRAC...
#39
Gerard Gamand
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Posted 04 March 2007 - 18:37
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hieronymus
[B]Who is the driver of the FFrance MT6 in the picture? Denis Dayan?
It is François Guerre-Berthelot who was later involved with the AGS team in Formula 2 and Formula 1
[B]Who is the driver of the FFrance MT6 in the picture? Denis Dayan?
It is François Guerre-Berthelot who was later involved with the AGS team in Formula 2 and Formula 1
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#40
M Needforspeed
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Posted 04 March 2007 - 18:39
thanks Gerard In 1973 it is Rene Arnoux and not Cudini that won the F Renault title .Cudini was already in F3 with the Alpine
1974 : Didier Pironi
1974 : Didier Pironi
#41
philippe charuest
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Posted 04 March 2007 - 18:43
do you have any pictures of the elina,maybe not the best car but IMO it was the best looking formule france , should add that in the paintjob area the french formule france and the french f3 pack of the late sixties looked much better then his british ff/f3 counterpart it was spectacular
#43
Gerard Gamand
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Posted 04 March 2007 - 19:56
You are correct M Needforspeed
Explanation
for 1972 two classements were do :
- one for the french track : winner Jacques Laffite
- one for the european track : winner Alain Cudini
for 1973 one classement
- winner René Arnoux
for 1974 one classement
- winner Didier Pironi
French are very often complicated men...
Explanation
for 1972 two classements were do :
- one for the french track : winner Jacques Laffite
- one for the european track : winner Alain Cudini
for 1973 one classement
- winner René Arnoux
for 1974 one classement
- winner Didier Pironi
French are very often complicated men...
#44
Allen Brown
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Posted 04 March 2007 - 21:15
To continue the F/Renault digression, here's the 1971 season review as I happen to have Echappwement Jan 1972 right here:
Cars from Le Gallen, Cusson, Alpine, Martini, Pygmee, Tecno, Hampe and AGS.
Michel Leclere (Alpine Leclere) 234 pts
Alain Serpaggi (Alpine Bozian) 204
Jannick Auxemery (Tecno Trolle) 188
Alain Cudini 171
Jacques Laffite 150
Roger Dubos 135
Fred Stalder 109
Jacques Coche 100
Bruno Chambas 82
Max Mamers 70
(apologies for the lack of correct accents)
Auxemery was the youngest of those ten - what became of him?
Allen
Cars from Le Gallen, Cusson, Alpine, Martini, Pygmee, Tecno, Hampe and AGS.
Michel Leclere (Alpine Leclere) 234 pts
Alain Serpaggi (Alpine Bozian) 204
Jannick Auxemery (Tecno Trolle) 188
Alain Cudini 171
Jacques Laffite 150
Roger Dubos 135
Fred Stalder 109
Jacques Coche 100
Bruno Chambas 82
Max Mamers 70
(apologies for the lack of correct accents)
Auxemery was the youngest of those ten - what became of him?
Allen
#45
Gerard Gamand
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Posted 04 March 2007 - 21:40
Alain Cudini on a Martini
Jacques Laffite on a Martini
Roger Dubos on a Tecno
Fred Stalder on a Pygmée
Jacques Coche on a Martini (he win at Charade)
Bruno Chambas on a Martini
Max Mamers on a Martini
I don't know where is now Yannick Auxemery (not Jannick)
Jacques Laffite on a Martini
Roger Dubos on a Tecno
Fred Stalder on a Pygmée
Jacques Coche on a Martini (he win at Charade)
Bruno Chambas on a Martini
Max Mamers on a Martini
I don't know where is now Yannick Auxemery (not Jannick)
#46
T54
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Posted 04 March 2007 - 23:52
Loose translation:
Indeed the Elina was never competitive compared to the more sophisticated GRAC inspired by the successful Tecno.
:
Ethuin is not too happy on the one hand as he knows that the circuit of Reims is even more dangerous for these small cars powered by the Gordini 1300cc engine than for the larger cars which make the difference between themselves more easily, and on the other hand the Elina get their clock cleaned since the beginning of the season by the GRAC, better cars tending to being smaller F3's.
Indeed the Elina was never competitive compared to the more sophisticated GRAC inspired by the successful Tecno.
:
#47
M Needforspeed
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Posted 04 March 2007 - 23:55
Allen
Auxemery drove a Tecno F Renault .Though a tough competitor, I am afraid he vanished from the racing scene as soon as 1972
but perhaps he drove in the SIMCA SHELL sport car cup in 74 ??
smeone could confirm that
Auxemery drove a Tecno F Renault .Though a tough competitor, I am afraid he vanished from the racing scene as soon as 1972
but perhaps he drove in the SIMCA SHELL sport car cup in 74 ??
smeone could confirm that
#48
T54
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Posted 05 March 2007 - 00:09
It is François Guerre-Berthelot who was later involved with the AGS team in Formula 2 and Formula 1
And one of the creators of the GPA helmets...
#49
Gerard Gamand
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Posted 05 March 2007 - 05:25
and GPA was the main sponsor of the early years of AGS in Formula 2
#50
Gerard Gamand
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Posted 05 March 2007 - 07:23
Here is a pic take at the factory of GRAC in Valence during winter 69-70
It's the construction of the prototype GRAC MT11 F3
It's the construction of the prototype GRAC MT11 F3
