191 replies to this topic

[HistoricMustang]

Quote

Originally posted by Pedro 917
Ford Galaxie at the Nürburgring Old Timer GP 2007 :

I guess it is very difficult to drive the same line with a "Monster of the Midway". Or, perhaps the line simply changes depending on how the car feels carrying 4000 lbs.

WOW! Ice Racing! http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

I love these things at speed.

Henry

[Bob Riebe]

Quote

Originally posted by HistoricMustang


I guess it is very difficult to drive the same line with a "Monster of the Midway". Or, perhaps the line simply changes depending on how the car feels carrying 4000 lbs.

WOW! Ice Racing! http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

I love these things at speed.

Henry

How could a road racing Galaxie still weigh 4,000 lbs?
I drove a Pylmouth four door Fury, which only weighed 3,700 in street trim.

[Dave Wright]

CAR LIFE Feb 1964 tested a NASCAR 1963 Galaxie, and quoted a kerb weight of 3715 lbs and a test weight of 4055 lbs

[Ray Bell]

Thank you, Dave...

Been wondering if I'd ever get an answer to that. 'Kerb weight' as prepared for racing, or as a road car, did it say?

[HistoricMustang]

Quote

Originally posted by Dave Wright
CAR LIFE Feb 1964 tested a NASCAR 1963 Galaxie, and quoted a kerb weight of 3715 lbs and a test weight of 4055 lbs

Add Tiny Lund to the car weight and zoom past 4000 pounds easily.

http://www.tinylund.com/

Henry

[Dave Wright]

Quote

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Thank you, Dave...

Been wondering if I'd ever get an answer to that. 'Kerb weight' as prepared for racing, or as a road car, did it say?

The test is of the race car, H&M prepared. What I'm less sure about is the amount of fuel assumed for kerb weight - is it half a tank? UK magazines at this time would also test 2 up, so this was probably the same in the US. My best guess is that the 340lb difference between kerb weight and test weight is the weight of 2 testers. So perhaps a race weight of 3885 lbs?

[HistoricMustang]

Sandown Saloon Racing 1964

http://youtube.com/w...feature=related

You have to wait four minutes before the Monster!

Henry

[Bob Riebe]

Quote

Originally posted by Dave Wright


The test is of the race car, H&M prepared. What I'm less sure about is the amount of fuel assumed for kerb weight - is it half a tank? UK magazines at this time would also test 2 up, so this was probably the same in the US. My best guess is that the 340lb difference between kerb weight and test weight is the weight of 2 testers. So perhaps a race weight of 3885 lbs?

At that time race cars were weighed dry, no oil, no water for meeting minimums.
Although in the Trans-Am there were two minimums one dry. and one wet, full oil and full water, but I am not sure how much fuel was used.

[John Ellacott]

Brian Muir in the Willment Ford Galaxie Brands Hatch , British Grand Prix meeting July 1966.
My only visit to Brands Hatch. I do not know which Lotus Cortina it is, there were six entered.

[Dave Wright]

I'd guess its Jackie Ickx in the Team Lotus car #86.

[sterling49]

Great photo John I was at this meeting, usual position at the end of South Bank just before the "Motor Bridge", love the fact that two Minis can just about be seen ( I guess being lapped) or was it the start of the race ? When the Minis would crawl all over the large cars at Paddock

[onelung]

A couple of images previously posted on another TNF thread, but pertinent to this one. Sandown, (circa 64-66)

[bradbury west]

Quote

Originally posted by Dave Wright
I'd guess its Jackie Ickx in the Team Lotus car #86.

Probably, as he is tangling with Muir and Minis, but possibly Whitmore in car 85. It depends who was driving the JC car- Bob Dance explained at the JC Film Fest that the JC car was always the one with the deep black bar across the bonnet.

BTW, and O/T a bit, do we know who Brian Newton, car 82 and W Beers, car 84 , were? They do not initiate campanology here.
Roger Lund

[Ray Bell]

I don't think this has been mentioned yet...



From Racing Car News November 1966... and didn't Jack roll one?

As for the picture John posted, as usual a great pic... but doesn't it indicate that Muiro had problems in practice and was maybe in trouble during the race? The bumper missing, the front guard a different colour, it all looks a bit of a mess.

[sterling49]

Quote

Originally posted by bradbury west


BTW, and O/T a bit, do we know who Brian Newton, car 82 and W Beers, car 84 , were? They do not initiate campanology here.
Roger Lund

From memory, Brian's Cortina was white with a gold stripe, I believe he came from the Croydon area, and if it is the same guy, had a Honda dealership in S.E.25 during the '70's and possibly, still does. He often raced at Brands. This could be hopelessly incorrect though Never heard of Beers, it would help if I could find my copy of the programme :

[Dave Wright]

Quote

Originally posted by bradbury west

Probably, as he is tangling with Muir and Minis, but possibly Whitmore in car 85. It depends who was driving the JC car- Bob Dance explained at the JC Film Fest that the JC car was always the one with the deep black bar across the bonnet.

Whitmore was driving the car with the narrow bar, there is a photo of him driving this car on P66 of Ford in Touring Car Racing . Plus race accounts indicate he never tangled with Muir, while they also indicate Ickx did overtake Muir early in the race.

As for Mr Wim Beers (from Holland), I think this was the only BSCC round he raced in, in 65, 66 or 67, so this may explain why he isn't so well known.

[bradbury west]

Thanks for the clarification
RL

[Twin Window]

Here's another photo posted on behalf of Peter Darley, unmistakably taken at Oulton Park, with - I deduce [erroneously] - Frank Gardner at the helm. [Edit; it's Brian Muir!]

He says that this is the 'before' picture, and he'll provide the 'after' shot... when he finds it!



Photo: copyright Peter Darley

[Gary C]

that car looks bluddy great from here!

[Ray Bell]

Quote

Originally posted by Gary C
that car looks bluddy great from here!

And not so great here:



I suspect Peter's 'after' shot maybe be of the same ilk! And I guess this means that it's Brian Muir driving, not Gardner, who wouldn't have had such a friendly look on his face.

Still no word on whether Jack rolled one, I think it may have been at Goodwood?

[David Shaw]

I'm sure that I've seen photos recently of Muir's Galaxie from behind, taken on impact of what I assume was the same incident. I'll try and find a link.

[Twin Window]

Quote

Originally posted by Ray Bell

And I guess this means that it's Brian Muir driving, not Gardner...

Good lord - I can't believe I got that wrong, especially given that I only added the driver's ID in after I saw the clipping!

[David Shaw]

Found it in Sports Car World, December 1966 . Sorry for the bad quality of the scan.

[Ray Bell]

David, you'll find that a digital photo will come up much clearer than a scan...

That's how I do it all the time these days. Outside, but not in the sun, don't use flash.

[David Shaw]

Good advice that you had given me before Ray, but I had forgotten!

[Leo D]

David, I also found that scanning magazine or newspaper articles worked best at a low resolution... 75dpi or there abouts..

Back on topic though.... I've seen pictures of the Norm Beechey Galaxy in Neptune colours on the DVD's Before Brock there was Beechey... and The Long Weekend At Longford. However, it was not on the track in action in either of those.

Did it ever race in the Neptune colours?

[David Shaw]

I think the story behind Beechey not racing at Longford in '64 is that his was a late entry, which required all other competitor's approval before he could run. One of them did not approve.

I'm sure Ray will put me right on this if it was another competitor I'm thinking of.

I haven't seen evidence of it racing in Neptune colours either.

EDIT: And thanks for the scanning tip.

[Ray Bell]

I don't know about Longford at all...

Racing Car News had no reporter there for the '64 meeting. They made up a report from other sources, and the 'supporting events' paragraphs say nothing whatever about Beechey.

However, it's definitely the case that the car was painted in the blue and white of Neptune. I could only find (with a cursory sweep through RCN) the one meeting at which the car ran, at Lowood in July or early August. This picture I remember well, because it was an outstanding appearance of the car, a huge bonnet scoop over the carbies and many months since it had last been seen. I don't think it ran again.



It was a lousy showing anyway... took the lap record, had a 13 second lead after one lap... but beaten by a Cortina in the main race! And in the race it was scorching along it broke a piston.

Quote

Originally posted by Leo D
David, I also found that scanning magazine or newspaper articles worked best at a low resolution... 75dpi or there abouts.....

It doesn't, however, get rid of the moiré pattern in the pictures, however...

The camera does a much better job.

[Leo D]

Ray,

Out of interest, where was the meeting that the car ran at?

The pictures that I saw of it were in the pits at Sandown (I think) looked like it was on display.... The picture of it on the Longford film showed it either being driven on or off the boat to Tasmania.... perhaps it was taken down there as a promotional excercise?

[Twin Window]

Here's Peter Darley's 'after' photo. Ouch!



Photo: copyright Peter Darley

[Ray Bell]

Quote

Originally posted by Leo D
Ray,

Out of interest, where was the meeting that the car ran at?

I've edited my post, which I'd somehow left incomplete... Lowood...

Actually, the few words of the report and the pic caption would have been sufficient clues, but I didn't mean to let anyone be left guessing. My apologies.

Twinny... didn't I tell you so?

[HistoricMustang]

Gentlemen, that is a wreck!

Seems every panel on the monster is bent.

Henry

[Twin Window]

Quote

Originally posted by Ray Bell

Twinny... didn't I tell you so?

Sorry, I'm not with you Ray...

[Ray Bell]

Quote

Originally posted by Twin Window
Sorry, I'm not with you Ray...

Along with the photo of the wreck that I posted, I put this comment:

Quote

I suspect Peter's 'after' shot may be of the same ilk! And I guess this means that it's Brian Muir driving, not Gardner, who wouldn't have had such a friendly look on his face.

We still have nothing on Brabham's prang in a Galaxie... as long as I'm not dreaming that it happened... anyone?

[mariner]

Those Galaxies were BIG. However they weighed a lot less than you might think at 3880lbs which is about 1688kg. today a roadgoing BMW 3 series convertible can get that heavy.

Talking of saloon racer weights I have read that the Alan Mann Falcons , which I think were ex Monte Carlo rally cars, were homologated at 985kg. Can that really be true for a seperate chassi V-8 car with a roll cage? If it is true I can understand why they were ( and are) so fast because that would give them the roughly the same weight as a contemporary Ford GT40.

I recall that almost everything on one of those Falcons was homologated in glass fbre so the weight might have been real.

[sterling49]

Quote

Originally posted by mariner
Those Galaxies were BIG. However they weighed a lot less than you might think at 3880lbs which is about 1688kg. today a roadgoing BMW 3 series convertible can get that heavy.

Talking of saloon racer weights I have read that the Alan Mann Falcons , which I think were ex Monte Carlo rally cars, were homologated at 985kg. Can that really be true for a seperate chassi V-8 car with a roll cage? If it is true I can understand why they were ( and are) so fast because that would give them the roughly the same weight as a contemporary Ford GT40.

I recall that almost everything on one of those Falcons was homologated in glass fbre so the weight might have been real.

The Galaxies always looked quite serene as they powered their way along Top Straight at Brands, something rather grand and ponderous about them, on the other hand, the Falcons were positively ballet dancers, light, nimble and amazing to watch their speed pick up and their cornering speed. I often used to watch at South Bank bend, going onto the long circuit under "The Motor" bridge. The cacophony of noise, vibration and speed was just the most exciting thing to see, with Frank, Brian, Gawaine, David Hobbs and Roy Pierpoint always delighting the spectators with close racing. I have to say, that of all the "Big Bangers" the Falcon was my favourite, especially the red and gold Alan Mann car, when driven by a certain Frank Gardner

Were they GT40 engines in the Falcons? What power did they have compared to the 7litre Galaxies?

[RS2000]

The Falcon ("Futura Sprint") was homologated at a ridiculously optimistic weight, as I believe AM confirmed later. Writing the spec and then getting it homologated was not unheard of then. Appendix J checks were about seeing "provisions for" the production of a model and it's homologated options, not actually counting on the ground the total numbers required. The Falcon's competitiveness in the BSCC however was, I think, only during the Group5 years 66-68 when freedom was greater and it was effectively dead once the championship reverted to Group2.

[Ray Bell]

The Falcons didn't have separate chassis...

All the same, to homologate them under a ton would mean some serious lightweighting! Very thin fibreglass might help, but the mechanicals certainly wouldn't.

On the horsepower side of things, Jim Sullivan wrote home in December 1965, "It now looks definite that saloon car racing will be run under Group 5 regs in Britain next year - look out for the 600bhp Fords!" That would be the Galaxies, I feel sure the early Mustangs were about 400-420bhp.

Incidentally, the car crashed at Oulton Park was the former Gawaine Baillie car, which had hung itself over the precipice at Sandown Park and passed me down Tannery Straight between races. In the February issue of Racing Car News, Jim explained this and wrote the following:

"Now it is being fitted with a 7-litre 'Hi-Riser' donk and many other goodies. Willments are experimenting with various induction systems - fuel injection, Holley and Weber carburettors - and expect to get at least 600bhp out of it. A very big suspension sorting programme is also under way, along with plans for wider than wide rims and some very fancy disc brakes - double calipers and all!"

In another issue of the magazine, Brian Muir writes about his first Galaxie win, Goodwood at Easter. Actually, thw whole of the letter is very interesing, covering his debut at Oulton Park and races at Snetterton and Goodwood. It also discusses Jim Clark, as Brian had come up against him in his first meeting at Oulton Park.

It's important here, by the way, to remember during this that Brian always did a lot of thinking between practice sessions and races, working out in his mind where he can be faster and then going onto the circuit and doing it.

Quote

I don't know about you, but I had a pretty successful Easter. Whilst it's impossible to predict that the Galaxie will continue its winning way, at least it's made a good start and this helps a lot.

As you probably know, we started testing about the middle of March with an engine taken from John Willment's boat "Blue Moppie", which he used in the Off Shore Powerboat Race in 1965.

This engine was only to be used for testing, but as is so often the case, it had to stay in for the first race.

We tried the car at Goodwood, Brands and Snetterton and at each circuit we were a little better than the lap record, but not quick enough, so we tried to screw some more power out of the engine by fitting a new cam for Oulton Park on April 2. It didn't work, it was worse!

When we arrived for practice we were not pleased about the weather as it was pouring. I hadn't driven around Oulton before this and was quite pleased to turn in a 1:0808, with Jim Clark doing a 1:04.6.

In the second period I had settled down a bit and managed a 1:03.6, but Jim, the sly dog, had rushed around in 1:02.2, which is not bad in a Lotus Cortina. He is the most amazing driver I have ever seen in a saloon car, and he is a clear three seconds quicker than any other driver in a Lotus, including Peter Arundell.

As you know, the race was called off, but with Jack on 1:03.0 and Mike Salmon on 1:03.4, also in a Mustaing, it could have been a lot of fun."

Next Thursday we turned up for practice at Snetterton and, as there was only one practice period, we elected to see how the wet weather Goodyears handled in the dry. They had been really good in the wet at Oulton, but we had no experience in the dry.

As it turned out they were good enough to get us fourth place on the grid but were about 1½-2 seconds slower, although from inside the car they felt more like 10 seconds slower as the tail would come out a mile on every corner. However, it was dry for the race and we changed over.

I got a diabolical start but was able to pass Jim after two or three laps, although as soon as I passed him he tucked in behind and got the biggest tow of his life as I couldn't shake him off.

We should have been much faster but had destroyed the only 4.1 diff we had during testing and were just overgeared.

I managed to pass Mike Salmon with a pretty desperate 'wheels locked' entry into the Russell Hairpin and I began to draw away from Mike, but I still had Jim in the boot.

He made a pass on the last lap, but I'm glad to say the experience I gained keeping Foley and Pete Geoghegan behind me paid off, and I saw it coming. So we were second to Jack and pretty pleased.

The next day was practice for Goodwood and there was only time to change the wheels (it was raining again) before practice. Jim was fastest and I was second, 0.5 seconds behind.

For the second practice period it was dry and the order was Jack, Mike, jim and me with about 1.4 seconds between us. We how had Sunday off with a chance to do a few things we wanted to do.

We were able to borrow a 4.1 diff from Roy Pierpoint, and we fitted a much larger exhaust system that we had wanted to fit for Snetterton but didn't have time. The engine used to run up to about 6,000 and then would drop off in power when it should go like mad.

Anyway, after I had nearly lost it in the warming up lap I knew it was a 'flyer'.

Again I made a slow start (we are a bit uncertain about the transmission, so I treat it very gently at the start), and I was sixth at the end of the first lap.

The car was really flying and I was able to pass everyone by the sixth lap, and then I had a plug go out. Jack, who had been slowed in the early stages with a new tyre, began to catch me.

On the odd occasion a second plug would fail and I could see myself being passed. However, the old girl was just able to make it home and I had won my first race. At some time during the first laps I set an outright Saloon Car record of 1:52.2 and went home quite 'chuffed' as they say.

I haven't found anything specific about it, but the car was also damaged (the chassis kinked, apparently) in a crash at Crystal Palace... and I haven't yet found anything about Brabham's crash (if he had one!).

[sterling49]

Great post Ray! I can just see Jim right up Brian's boot and smiling as he got a tow, nice to read what the other gutys were thinking of Jim. I used to see all of the named drivers at Brands, Mike Salmon is a name from my distant memory though!

[Ray Bell]

Mike Salmon was the one who punted Bob Jane in the Jag at Silverstone, wasn't he?

And a part of the 'enemy' that put paid to Dan Gurney's intended campaign in the 409 in 1961...

[David Kipling]

I've a nice press photo of Mike Salmon (Mustang) leading Oliver or Sears (Galaxie) and Jim Clark (Lotus-Cortina) tightly bunched in matching four-wheel drifts, at Snettwerton. I shall scan and post the link here in the next few days.

I watched Jackie Oliver stuff (as in S-T-U-F-F-F) a Galaxie into the bank at Woodcote, and I think Northamptonshire shifted slightly NW.

Come to think of it, who was the last F1 driver to compete in a saloon race while still in F1?

[Ray Bell]

Jacky Ickx?

Plenty have run at Bathurst while competing in F1, especially after the US GP left Watkins Glen... which usually clashed to some degree with the Bathurst race.

[Graham Gauld]

Ray Bell

No No No......Michael Parkes punted Bob Jane off. I tell the full story of this along with about five photos of the two incidents involving Michael and Bob in my biography of Jack Sears. Michael did this not once but twice, actually. I was standing on the grass on the outside of Melling Crossing and shot the photographs of both incidents.

[Ray Bell]

Thanks Graham...

Bob told me it was Mike Salmon, but he is getting a little less sharp in the mind than he used to be.

[Andrew Kitson]

Quote

Originally posted by David Kipling


Come to think of it, who was the last F1 driver to compete in a saloon race while still in F1?

That would probably be the St.Mary's Trophy at the Goodwood Revival. Vitantonio Luizzi & Narain Karthikeyan spring to mind at the 2005 Revival and Christian Klien in 2006. All on the pace very quickly, quicker than many guys that regularly race those cars which one should expect from a 'hot shoe' single-seater driver. Especially when we consider the majority of drivers in historic racing are mature 'gentleman' racers who race just for fun, not with ambitions to be world champion!

As for contemporary saloon/touring car racing, it must be a very long time ago!

[Andrew Kitson]

Quote

Originally posted by Ray Bell


In another issue of the magazine, Brian Muir writes about his first Galaxie win, Goodwood at Easter. Actually, thw whole of the letter is very interesing, covering his debut at Oulton Park and races at Snetterton and Goodwood. It also discusses Jim Clark, as Brian had come up against him in his first meeting at Oulton Park.

"When we arrived for practice we were not pleased about the weather as it was pouring. I hadn't driven around Oulton before this and was quite pleased to turn in a 1:0808, with Jim Clark doing a 1:04.6.

In the second period I had settled down a bit and managed a 1:03.6, but Jim, the sly dog, had rushed around in 1:02.2, which is not bad in a Lotus Cortina. He is the most amazing driver I have ever seen in a saloon car, and he is a clear three seconds quicker than any other driver in a Lotus, including Peter Arundell.

As you know, the race was called off, but with Jack on 1:03.0 and Mike Salmon on 1:03.4, also in a Mustaing, it could have been a lot of fun."

I'd love to know which Oulton circuit configuration they were using to turn in 1:02.2 times!
The Fosters link did not exist back then, only the long circuit. As it was pouring could it have been a 2:02.2?

[Dave Wright]

Quote

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson


I'd love to know which Oulton circuit configuration they were using to turn in 1:02.2 times!
The Fosters link did not exist back then, only the long circuit. As it was pouring could it have been a 2:02.2?

Yes, the times quoted in Autosport April 8 1966 were

Jim Clark 2m 2.2s
Jack Brabham 2m 3.0s
Mike Salmon 2m 3.2s
Brian muir 2m 3.6s
John Rhodes 2m 4.8s

[sterling49]

Quote

Originally posted by Dave Wright


Yes, the times quoted in Autosport April 8 1966 were

Jim Clark 2m 2.2s
Jack Brabham 2m 3.0s
Mike Salmon 2m 3.2s
Brian muir 2m 3.6s
John Rhodes 2m 4.8s

John Rhodes in 2m 4.8s in a Cooper Car Company 1300 "S" not bad for a littlun That was what was so engaging about saloons then, great dices inter class

[Dave Wright]

Quote

Originally posted by sterling49


John Rhodes in 2m 4.8s in a Cooper Car Company 1300 "S" not bad for a littlun That was what was so engaging about saloons then, great dices inter class

This was of course in wet conditions. In dry conditions such as the 1966 Saloon race at the Gold Cup the fastest laps in each capacity group were as follows

Over 2 litre 1:52.2
1,301 - 2,000 cc 1:52.4
1,001-1,300 cc 1:57.0
up to 1,000 cc 2:00.4

[RS2000]

Quote

Originally posted by Dave Wright

Over 2 litre 1:52.2
1,301 - 2,000 cc 1:52.4
1,001-1,300 cc 1:57.0
up to 1,000 cc 2:00.4

That's actually a pretty good advert for much-maligned BRM, given that broadly similar chassis mods were on the 1300 and 1000cc Fords too.
A 68 Gp5 Alan Mann Escort (here at Stoneleigh this year) was very similar to a 66 Team Lotus Cortina in terms of the decidedly non-standard cross member/TCAs. I doubt a Galaxy was so extreme: