82 replies to this topic

[tonyb]

Originally posted by racingreen
Tony,

ALTA F2/2 is easily recogniseable to me because of its distinctive windshield/mirrors, dzus fastener pattern and full width seat back. It was the only Alta F2 to have this type of seat, fitted by the works following a rebuild after Whitehouse's big crash in it. The car exists today in exactly this same spec.

Question is, why was it there? For sale perhaps?

DRW.

Thanks for that David. I'll add it to the existing info.

[tonyb]

Originally posted by Graham Gauld
[B]For some reason I completely missed this thread and even though it is much too late I have attached a photo of Mike Hawthorn in the Len Potter F-N at Charterhall - not the overcoat as it was a cold day. It was the first time I watched Hawthorn in action - he also raced a Cooper-Bristol that day and at least TonyB will now know the number of the car at the race.
Sorry for the delay

Graham Gauld

Thanks Graham although I did get the details for the F-N before the book went to press from another TNFer.

If you (or anyone else) can try a few more please, there are still two races we don't have the race numbers for - they are:

Jun 29 1953 Monza Autodrome GP Ferrari 625TF 4th - Have car no 8 but not confirmed
Jul 25 1954 Portugese GP Ferrari 750S 2nd - No car no

TIA

[Neri Moreira]

Hy My friends

Also arrived very late to this thread sorry.

I have purchased and received the book and I must tell you that I was surprised and greatly pleased to see my name in the aknowledgments and to see also my name close to the 1958 Portuguese Grand Prix poster, in one of the two pages that MotorSport chose to show of the book

I showed it already to all my friends and family, thank you very very much

Now about the numbers of the Ferrari Mike drove here (in Porto ) in 58, I think you refer to the racing number right?

Well this is also a curious story as Mike did the training using the number 22 and then, to the race, he switched to the number 24,even if both him and Von Trips kept the same cars, from what I read (cant remember where), because both Peter Collins and Musso where killed while driving the number 2 car... It may be or not true, really dont know.

I also have a lot of photos of the 1958 Grand Prix, but sadly I don't have their rights (I gave particularly a CD to Mr. Stirling Moss with all those photos ) and I also sent some photos of Cliff Allison to Mr. Gauld to help on his book on Cliff (is the book already out?), I think I also sent you some photos of Mike in Porto 1958, but I am sure you couldn't printed them because of the rights issue, what a shame .

I hope I helped

Thank you very very much again

Yours
Antonio Neri Moreira

[Neri Moreira]

´Sorry

Just saw that you were looking for 1954 and not 1958:

"Jul 25 1954 Portuguese GP Ferrari 750S 2nd - No car no"

What a shame ....

I must dig to see what I can find

Can you tell me were was that GP, in Lisbon, Cascais, Porto, or?

Thank you

Neri

[Hieronymus]

[tonyb]

Hi Antonio

Glad you have the book okay. Re the Porto '58 photos, we ran out of space when it came to it (we used just over 1000 photos and I had another 400 in total that weren`t used) and as you said, we were uncertain of who owned them although I doubt there would be any problem.

If you like (and I doubt anyone else here will complain), I can easily post all of them here for everyone to see? There is a possibility that one of the archive owners here might have the negs but I`m sure we`ll hear pretty quickly if so!

Here`s one to be going on with.

[raceannouncer2003]

Both Martin Krejci's and the Barchetta site show the 1953 Monza car as #16. The Barchetta page shows a book reference with page number:

http://www.wsrp.ic.c...amp1953.html#42

http://www.barchetta...304TF.625TF.htm

Don't know about the 1954 Portuguese GP.

Vince H.

[Neri Moreira]

Hi Tony

From my side no problem at all

After all I bought the prints (very expensive I may say) to the owner of the negs who told me(by mouth) that I could print the photos if I wished and agreed to sign a paper saying so, before I paid him...

After that when I went to colect them he told me his son advised him not to sign anything, evn though he kept telling me that I could do as I wished with the photos as I had paid for them.

So, from my point of view, go on with it

All the best

A. Neri Moreira

[tonyb]

Originally posted by Neri Moreira
´Sorry

Just saw that you were looking for 1954 and not 1958:

"Jul 25 1954 Portuguese GP Ferrari 750S 2nd - No car no"

What a shame ....

I must dig to see what I can find

Can you tell me were was that GP, in Lisbon, Cascais, Porto, or?

Thank you

Neri

Monsanto Park in Lisbon....

[tonyb]

Originally posted by raceannouncer2003
Both Martin Krejci's and the Barchetta site show the 1953 Monza car as #16. The Barchetta page shows a book reference with page number:

http://www.wsrp.ic.c...amp1953.html#42

http://www.barchetta...304TF.625TF.htm

Don't know about the 1954 Portuguese GP.

Vince H.

Thanks Vince.

[tonyb]

Here are the rest of the Mike Hawthorn photos at Porto 1958 for all to enjoy - thanks go to Neri!

Edited by tonyb, 29 May 2009 - 09:21.

[Barry Boor]

more pages devoted to Mike's fatal accident than there are to his entire racing career...

Mmmm... this fact makes me think very hard about whether I actually want this book or not.

I understand Tony's reasoning with regard to the above fact but still.... I think I will have to have a good look at a copy before deciding to buy or not to buy..

[tonyb]

Originally posted by Barry Boor

Mmmm... this fact makes me think very hard about whether I actually want this book or not.

I understand Tony's reasoning with regard to the above fact but still.... I think I will have to have a good look at a copy before deciding to buy or not to buy..

That comment by Tony Brooks isn't correct going on actual page count - the racing career chapter has 36pp and the accident less at 32pp.

And, for racing coverage, there is also:

Le Mans 1955 with 34pp
VDU with 5pp on the racing
Career Results 6pp

and there are a few other related pages in the third chapter.

Which makes at least 81 race related pages.

[flat-16]

It's very decent of Neri to share such atmospheric shots with us - much appreciated

For what it's worth, I've always perceived the term 'golden boy' as a generic moniker, applied to just about any sportsman that's at the top of their game. I'm sure it's been applied to the likes of Ian Botham or Lewis Hamilton many times, even though, for example, the former's nickname would be 'beefy'.

Justin

[Barry Boor]

Thank you for that explanation, Tony.

I guess I am still a tad uncomfortable about Mike's accident occupying 32 pages. But that's just me....

[Dennis Hockenbury]

Just received my copy yesterday. With the benefit of only a quick glance, the book is beautifully produced.

[kris-kincaid]

The accident is covered tastefully in the book; don't let that keep you from buying a copy. I have been enjoying my copy and it was well worth the wait.

Originally posted by Barry Boor


Mmmm... this fact makes me think very hard about whether I actually want this book or not.

I understand Tony's reasoning with regard to the above fact but still.... I think I will have to have a good look at a copy before deciding to buy or not to buy..

[RS2000]

I had expected to find those expressing doubts about the extent of the accident coverage to be too young to have direct memory of the magnitude of the event at the time - but I see that is not the case. May be it was more of a monumental event to those of us brought up not so far away.
Having now received the book and having been warned here it was not just another "next we went to Silverstone..." type of book, I certainly don't see the accident coverage as anything other than appropriate and proportional.
The actual event may have been closer to home for me than for some, thus creating more of an impression. I see JMH's appearance at the 58 London Motor Show is listed as his last known "public" appearance. That quite litterally impacted on me. I was the second tallest in my very large junior school class but when the crowds walking between the Motor Show stands parted and I collided with JMH walking from the other direction, I still had to look upwards almost into the stratosphere to make eye contact - something that is as vivid a memory today.
Many years later, on a school coach trip, a questionnaire we had to answer during the journey included "who died here" - and I was far from the only member of a mostly motorsport-disinterested party to know.
From an initial look, the book seems very balanced and totally "appropriate" and I would hope the accident coverage does not deter anyone.

[Robin Fairservice]

What is meant by "last public appearance" I have vague memories of seeing Mike in the 1958 Boxing Day Brands Hatch paddock with a protege who was to drive a Lotus Sport racer that might have belonged to Mike. Or is my memory way out?

[RS2000]

I imagine they mean last publicised/scheduled "formal" appearance. He would have appeared in "public" most days at TT garage, including the fateful day.

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Robin Fairservice
What is meant by "last public appearance" I have vague memories of seeing Mike in the 1958 Boxing Day Brands Hatch paddock with a protege who was to drive a Lotus Sport racer that might have belonged to Mike. Or is my memory way out?

Didn't he flag off at least one of the races that day?

[raceannouncer2003]

There is British Pathe footage of the following, dated January 22, 1959. Would this qualify as "public"?

"SPORTSMEN HONOUR MIKE HAWTHORN (aka NATIONAL SPORTING CLUB PRESENTATION TO MIKE HAWTHORN)"

Vince H.

[kdc04]

I read the book cover to cover and generally I loved it. Incredibly detailed, beautifully presented. However, there are two points I would like to raise:

1. The Le Mans 55 chapter is a bit too biased I find. It's too much about acquitting Hawthorn from any guilt and blaming Levegh. I fully appreciate that everyone is entitled to his own opinion and that what happened there will never be understood in full, due to lack of evidence and the main protagonists having all died in the meantime. I don't claim to know the truth but having read Nixon and Hilton on the subject, I feel the Golden Boy chapter was written too much from the viewpoint of a Hawthorn fan defending his idol.

2. Again referring to Nixon, what about the legend of the discbrakes of the Collins roadgoing Ferrari going onto the Hawthorn F1 car? If I remember correctly, Nixon resolutely rubbished this legend backing it up with some evidence (didn't he talk to someone from Dunlop involved in fitting Hawthorn's car with discbrakes?). Golden Boy just mentions the Collins discbrakes going onto the Hawthorn F1 without mentioning the doubts surrounding this theory. Of course, Nixon might have been wrong but could someone then enlighten me as to what really happened?

Again, overall I loved the book, beautiful effort. Don't let anyone be put off by my minor gripes. It's well worth the investment for any Hawthorn fan.

[taylov]

Originally posted by Graham Gauld
If you want to hear Peters voice get the Sebring 1957 Riverside recording or CD where he is quite animated. Also his sense of humour also comes out in the Riverside record of he and Tony Brooks trying the pre-war Grand Prix cars. He was very soft spoken.

Easiest to obtain in the UK is the Sound Stories E.P. record - "Mercedes at Oulton Park 1958", EP508, which can often be found on eBayUK. Expect to pay £10 -£20. Recorded on June 28 1958, just a few weeks before Peter's death.

Tony

[Mal9444]

Originally posted by tonyb
Another way those that have the book can help please.

We decided this morning to get ready for a reprint as this is going to be needed early in the new year! If anyone has valid corrections for the content, I'd appreciate seeing these.

Well, Santa did his stuff and I am enjoying the book. Needless to say, I turned first to find what references there were to Mike at Dundrod: he was one of that group of drivers who - if one may judge by his performances there and the number of times he made the trip to Northern Ireland - evidently enjoyed the circuit. He certainly knew his way around it - and indeed his lap record of 4 min 42 sec (94.67mph) set in 1955 still stands as the fastest four-wheel lap. One small correction, if I may: page 232, the books says: 'Mike, in the only D-type entered...'

There were in fact two D-types entered: Mike's works-entered car and DK403 (the 'original' OKV2) entered by J.C. Broadhead but works-prepared and driven by Jaguar employee Bob Berry. Berry actually led Mike away from the start, but on lap 2 a tyre deflated and put Berry into the ditch at Quarry corner. Thereafter, Mike was indeed in the only Jaguar still racing and without doubt delivered one of the great drives of his career in a car not at all suited to the circuit. What a pity that this book, like so many others, dismisses his great co-driver in that epic race as 'local driver Desmond Titterington'. Certainly Titterington's family came from Ulster but he himself was educated in Scotland and was a Jaguar works driver. Indeed, he had been slated to drive at Le Mans that year, pairing JMH's pal Don Beauman, until forced out by injury sustained when he crashed his Ecurie Ecosse D-type at Nurburgring.

As has been mentioned by another, Golden Boy is rather one of those books in which the hero can do no wrong but it seems a little unfair to blame the car for the broken crankshaft that denied Mike and Desmond their second-place finish when it was Mike, fumbling a gear change and changing into first instead of third, who caused it to break - also near Quarry. Nixon asserts that at Dundrod Mike was still suffering mental and physical exhaustion brought about by the trauma of Le Mans and its aftermath, although in the MFQ movie pictures of him at the Ulster race there is little sign of anything other than the usual ebullient smile.

[Mal9444]

Originally posted by Mal9444


What a pity that this book, like so many others, dismisses his great co-driver in that epic race as 'local driver Desmond Titterington'.

Now read it cover to cover and in fairness must acknowledge that Titterington is given due note, albeit en passant, in the Le Mans chapter.

One thing that strikes me: there are references a-plenty to Mike's medical condition, but no real discussion thereof. Nixon's book is the same. This book, presumably deliberately, draws no conclusions about Mike but rather gives the reader much information to draw his own - and mine, I'm afraid to say, is that I am not at all sure I like him. Certainly in the recollections of some of his employees he comes across as an arrogant so-and-so, and it's plain that he had scant regard for his own safety - or those of others - on puiblic roads. (Perhaps I am forgetting what the roads and traffic conditions were like in the mid-Fifties?)

While not suggesting that he might have had a death wish I wonder would he have known, been told, that his kidney condition was going to kill him anyway, and within not very many years, and thus been rather more devil-may-care than otherwise might have been the case? I emphasise that I mean no disrespect to the man nor to the many who clearly revere him.

[Roger Clark]

I haven't got the book but I was wondering whether it says anything about Mike Hawthorn's attitude to the Mille Miglia. He raced in it only once, in 1953 his first year with Ferrari. In 1954 he was injured following his accident at Syracuse and in 55 and 56 his main sports car contract was with Jaguar who weren't terribly interested in the race. Nevertheless, a driver of his calibre would normally find a drive in such an important race. The real surprise was 1957 when you would expect a works Ferrari driver to be required for that race. Mon Ami Mate merely says that Ferrari told Hawthorn that he might or might not be required and Mike said that he would rather not. That wasn't the sort of thing that people often said to Enzo Ferrari, although Tony Brooks had Le Mans excluded from his 1959 contract. We know from Champion Year that Mike was not very impressed with the Targa Florio so it may have been a general aversion to Italian road races.

[David McKinney]

Interesting point, Roger
Apart from his single Mille Miglia and Targa Florio appearances he seems to have avoided Italian road races completely. The closest to that description would have been the 1953 Pescara 12hrs (which he won)

[Eric Dunsdon]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
I haven't got the book but I was wondering whether it says anything about Mike Hawthorn's attitude to the Mille Miglia. He raced in it only once, in 1953 his first year with Ferrari. In 1954 he was injured following his accident at Syracuse and in 55 and 56 his main sports car contract was with Jaguar who weren't terribly interested in the race. Nevertheless, a driver of his calibre would normally find a drive in such an important race. The real surprise was 1957 when you would expect a works Ferrari driver to be required for that race. Mon Ami Mate merely says that Ferrari told Hawthorn that he might or might not be required and Mike said that he would rather not. That wasn't the sort of thing that people often said to Enzo Ferrari, although Tony Brooks had Le Mans excluded from his 1959 contract. We know from Champion Year that Mike was not very impressed with the Targa Florio so it may have been a general aversion to Italian road races.

Unlike his mate Peter Collins who won the Targa, The Tour Of Sicily and finished second in the Mille Miglia!.

[tonyb]

Originally posted by Mal9444

One thing that strikes me: there are references a-plenty to Mike's medical condition, but no real discussion thereof. Nixon's book is the same. This book, presumably deliberately, draws no conclusions about Mike but rather gives the reader much information to draw his own - and mine, I'm afraid to say, is that I am not at all sure I like him. Certainly in the recollections of some of his employees he comes across as an arrogant so-and-so, and it's plain that he had scant regard for his own safety - or those of others - on puiblic roads. (Perhaps I am forgetting what the roads and traffic conditions were like in the mid-Fifties?)

While not suggesting that he might have had a death wish I wonder would he have known, been told, that his kidney condition was going to kill him anyway, and within not very many years, and thus been rather more devil-may-care than otherwise might have been the case? I emphasise that I mean no disrespect to the man nor to the many who clearly revere him.

This is covered in the book in Chapter Three within the section on his RAF entrance exam in 1954. Mike was well aware of the problems with his kidneys, even showing the RAF medical board an X-ray of them to prove it when they were doubtful (the original RAF entrance papers are partly reproduced in the book, all in Mike's own handwriting). But of course this wasn't made public and he couldn't tell the press about it - or the removal of one diseased kidney later that year - as it would have had a disastrous effect on prospects for his future racing career with a likely revocation of his licence!

So it was all kept secret as fiancee Jean Ireland has confirmed and Mike had to endure all the abuse that he got as a result. There's more in the book.

Whether his crash was in any way the result of knowledge of an inevitable early death is, to me anyway, unlikely - especially as he'd publicly announced his engagement and was to be married in a few months. He still had some years in which to enjoy life and looked like he fully intended to do so while he could.

[tonyb]

Originally posted by kdc04
The Le Mans 55 chapter is a bit too biased I find. It's too much about acquitting Hawthorn from any guilt and blaming Levegh. I fully appreciate that everyone is entitled to his own opinion and that what happened there will never be understood in full, due to lack of evidence and the main protagonists having all died in the meantime. I don't claim to know the truth but having read Nixon and Hilton on the subject, I feel the Golden Boy chapter was written too much from the viewpoint of a Hawthorn fan defending his idol.

Again, overall I loved the book, beautiful effort. Don't let anyone be put off by my minor gripes. It's well worth the investment for any Hawthorn fan.

This isn't biased at all in my opinion, it's purely quoting the facts. Remember he was exonerated at the time by the inquiry into the accident after they had seen the spectator film of the accident that was available.

12 of these film stills were published in Golden Boy that clearly show Mike had gradually (not suddenly) moved over to the right well in advance of the pits after overtaking Macklin - and after he was shown three count down pit boards on the three previous laps - and that the now following car of Macklin simply doesn't appear to have noticed (probably watching his mirrors to see what was happening behind). So when Macklin does finally notice Hawthorn close in front of him and now slowing, he has to pull out suddenly with the result we all know. At least one other TNFer has changed his opinion in Hawthorn's favour after seeing these stills as did the Daily Telegraph.

I do have access to all 78 stills that comprise the whole film that the inquiry saw but no permission to reconstruct them into a short film that could be shown publicly.

[tonyb]

I've acquired a number of fan photos of Mike from the early 1950s - there are two in there that
look more like they may be from a professional photographer - do any of you out there with
archives recognise either of these please and claim copyright? - I'll remove them if so and you ask.

Thanks.


201


202

[tonyb]

Does anyone know if Noel Matthews, the New Zealand poet who wrote a poem in the Frontispiece of Champion Year in 1958, is still alive and if so, does anyone have contact details please?

Thanks.