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Why did the Hills 'work so hard'?


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#1 brakedistance

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Posted 11 September 2008 - 20:40

I was a keen follower of Damon's career, and always felt that his natural talent was under-rated. He did always seem to expend a lot of effort to win a Grand Prix however. (Watching was always tense as it felt that he could chuck the car off the road for any reason at any given time, whereas the Schumi years of dominance were so dull because there was never a chance of either car or driver failure!).

The Graham Hill years were before my time, but I keep reading that he hard to work very hard for his wins, unlike Jim Clark who would apparently sit back while his sublime talent did all the work for him. Can anyone comment on why this was the case? Graham Hill looked pretty handy in an F1 car to me (in his heydey at least...)

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#2 Vitesse2

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Posted 11 September 2008 - 21:18

Well, had Jim Clark not existed, Graham Hill, John Surtees and perhaps Dan Gurney would all have won more World Championships. Graham was - barring Clark - the most successful driver of the 1962-5 seasons, but his memory is overshadowed by Jimmy. But make no mistake, he had to work hard to get there: he had come to racing (and indeed to driving) very late and was seven years older than Clark.

Clark was the ultimate "natural": there are many stories that demonstrate that. And he genuinely couldn't understand why others couldn't do what he could. Graham didn't have that natural talent and perhaps over-complicated things in an attempt to compensate. But you can't argue with five Monacos and three wins at Watkins Glen .... probably the two hardest (and certainly the best-paying!) races of the 60s.

#3 terry mcgrath

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Posted 11 September 2008 - 22:54

there is some excellent stuff in the Scrapbook series by Porter publishing UK on Graham Hill and a bit on Damon as well.
I just looked through the book last night and it is excellent, in the same series are 3 books on Moss and a book on "if I am very much mistaken" Murray Walker. Murrary was signing these at the historic silverstone july and XK60 August at Goodwood and they were selling like you wouldn't believe.
You should find them at
www.xkclub.com

#4 brakedistance

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 17:07

Many thanks. I saw the recent tv documentary on him, and it painted a fascinating picture of the man.

#5 B Squared

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 23:32

My impression of Graham Hill having to work so hard was that he was a mechanic as he first began his days in racing . He wanted to be a driver, but the way to his goal seems to be through his hard work & earning the respect of the more naturally gifted drivers and, of course, the team owners who could provide the drives he so desired. His mechanical & engineering gifts paid dividends to help sort the cars, he honed his craft, and certainly applied himself to become successful. This is certainly an overly simplified view. More detail on these aspects can be found in a short, but very thorough biography by Mr. Nye in the 1971 "The Encyclopedia of Motor Sport. Edited by GN Georgano.

Brian

#6 COUGAR508

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Posted 20 September 2008 - 10:03

Some of the perception of Graham as a "workmanlike" driver may have stemmed from constant comparisons with Jim Clark, who was his main rival from 1962-1968, and later his team-mate. It would be fair to say that everyone, and not just Graham, looked "workmanlike" next to Clark!

#7 ex Rhodie racer

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Posted 20 September 2008 - 12:01

Awefully hard to shine in the same era as Jimmy Clark, but Graham Hill did, albeit in the shadow of Jimmy. He was a superb driver with bags of talent and a fierce will to win. I was a great fan of his. His son also had the misfortune to come up against someone arguably as good as Clark. What were the odds that both father and son would be pitted against two of the greatest drivers of all time?

#8 B Squared

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Posted 20 September 2008 - 12:27

I remember at the time of Jim Clark's unfortunate accident; I was getting Competition Press magazine (as then Autoweek was known), in spite of the heavy burden upon the entire team's shoulders, Graham seemed to be able to partially fill the huge void. That year's championship seemed to be his to lose, his talent was such that he was expected to do it.

Brian

#9 P. Dron

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Posted 20 September 2008 - 12:40

One thing that puzzled me about Damon, whom I believe to have been greatly underrated by many people when he was at his peak, was that on the warm-up lap he did far less of the lock-to-lock stuff to get the tyres up to temperature. Yet he nearly always put in an impressive first lap. Can anyone explain that?

#10 B Squared

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Posted 20 September 2008 - 12:48

I think of Damon's peak as with the Williams team. I'm only speculating here, but possibly his affinity with the chassis from all of his testing miles. He may have had the confidence to push by knowing the car so well. People talked of Montoya's speed on cold tires in much the same manner.

#11 soubriquet

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Posted 20 September 2008 - 13:17

Damon Hill was a very fast driver. He was slightly less a racer. That is absolutely no criticism, I was and am a great fan of him, and consider him to be a class gentleman. When Williams let him go, they let me go too.

When the car was right (and he did his bit for this) DH could extract the max and be the equal of anyone. He was never a wheelbanger.

#12 kayemod

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Posted 20 September 2008 - 13:19

Originally posted by P. Dron
One thing that puzzled me about Damon, whom I believe to have been greatly underrated by many people when he was at his peak, was that on the warm-up lap he did far less of the lock-to-lock stuff to get the tyres up to temperature. Yet he nearly always put in an impressive first lap. Can anyone explain that?


I've never driven a racing car, so I don't really know, but going on the insights from Martin Brundle and others, all this swerving from side to side on the warm-up lap is just showboating, what's really important is warming up the brakes. Maybe all that lock-to-lock stuff makes the drivers feel better, or maybe they're just playing to the crowd, but according to Brundle, it doesn't really do much to warm the tyres. On Hill father and son, I agree entirely. Sure, Graham was a worker, but what's wrong with that? You don't have a record like his without plenty of natural talent. I thought that recent TV film was a fair and accurate portrayal, and I helped make one of his seats once back in the mid-70s and met the guy. He was a bit of a nutter, didn't seem to take anything very seriously, I even appeared in the background for several seconds in an old TV documentary on the Hill F1 team, or so my Mum told me at the time, I missed it completely though, no video recorders back in those days. And Damon was a real talent as well, he's unfairly under appreciated by most historians. A little inconsistent admittedly, but some of his drives rank with the very best. On a good day, he was better than Schumacher, and on an old and oft-repeated theme of mine, I haven't the slightest doubt which of those two I'd rather be stuck in a lift with.

#13 Robin Fairservice

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Posted 20 September 2008 - 15:20

I have heard that part of the need to warm up the tires is to get the tire pressures up and get the correct ride height for the aero dynamics. Some one suggested that Senna's fatal accident was partly due to low tire pressures after a red flar delay, and the car grounding just before losing control.

#14 David Lawson

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Posted 20 September 2008 - 16:04

In the recent book Jim Clark - Grand Prix Legend by Andrew Tulloch there are a pair of photographs on pages 114 & 115 of the start of the 1964 Monaco Grand Prix which perfectly illustrate Graham Hill's determination.

In the first picture Jack Brabham and Clark are waiting on the front row for the start with John Surtees and Hill behind them on the second row. The second picture taken a few seconds later shows Clark edging ahead of Brabham but Hill has already caught them both up and left Surtees way behind, Hill is trying to force himself through a gap between the Lotus and the Brabham that isn't there and looks like he is rubbing tyres with Brabham.

I'm not sure any driver during the 1.5 litre formula could match Clark so I always think it's a bit hard on Hill to be singled out as in some way lacking.

David

#15 fines

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Posted 20 September 2008 - 16:54

Originally posted by kayemod
I've never driven a racing car, so I don't really know, but going on the insights from Martin Brundle and others, all this swerving from side to side on the warm-up lap is just showboating, what's really important is warming up the brakes. Maybe all that lock-to-lock stuff makes the drivers feel better, or maybe they're just playing to the crowd, but according to Brundle, it doesn't really do much to warm the tyres.

Exactly my understanding!

As for the Hills having to work hard to achieve, that is one of the reasons I admire them both so much (It's easy to be good when you have talent, why should I admire someone because of a gift?;)). The other reason is that both appear to be/have been genuinely good blokes! 'Nuff said. :smoking:

#16 COUGAR508

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Posted 20 September 2008 - 18:44

Originally posted by B Squared
I think of Damon's peak as with the Williams team. I'm only speculating here, but possibly his affinity with the chassis from all of his testing miles. He may have had the confidence to push by knowing the car so well. People talked of Montoya's speed on cold tires in much the same manner.


I felt that Damon drove at his fastest in 1995, although he also made some mistakes that year. The '95 Williams seemed to be a difficult car to drive, but Damon drove some storming races, particularly early in the season. He absolutely dominated at Imola. At that stage in his career, he seemed to be a naturally fast driver, rather than a "worker".

#17 Kingsleyrob

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 17:07

Not answering the question really, but I'm glad they did work as had as they did to reach the heights they attained - I am a great fan of both.

Not only did Graham win the Indy, Le Mans and two WDCs, but to drive from England to the Monaco Grand Prix and back in an Austin A35 is what really makes him a hero!! :up:

Rob :wave:

#18 COUGAR508

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 21:11

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer
What were the odds that both father and son would be pitted against two of the greatest drivers of all time?


And the circumstances of the 1968 and 1994 seasons were very similar, although the dynamics of the relationships between Graham/Clark and Damon/Senna were somewhat different.

#19 brakedistance

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 21:39

I agree with all of the comments about Damon being a gent. The older I get, the more I grow to dislike the childish spats (see Hamilton/Alonso etc.), wish that other drivers could follow the example of the Hills. Great racing comes from movements on the track, not arguments off it, and there's a reason why Ronnie Peterson and Gilles Villeneuve are loved by fans like me who never even saw them race!

Richard Williams has written a fantastic book called "Racers" about the 1996 F1 season. In it, he shares his belief that even when Damon was finally a consistent winner, Frank Williams had no real faith that Damon could get the job done. I think Damon was a fantastic driver, but was never bored during his dominant wins as there was always a fear that he would make a big mistake! Somehow with Schumacher you knew that was never going to happen...

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#20 fines

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 08:08

Originally posted by brakedistance
Somehow with Schumacher you knew that was never going to happen...

Oh, like Spa '94, Adelaide '94, Monaco '96, Italy '96, Hungary '98, Spa '98, Monaco '00... I'm sure I missed a lot! Mind you, he was skilled (or lucky) enough to get away with some of them!

#21 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 09:06

The British press love to pidgeon-hole people and 'worker rather than natural talent' is one of those pidgeon-holes that was applied by some well-meaning scribe and then copied by others ever after - and onto the next generation as well.

I always thought this a very English way of assessing national heroes, to underplay or understate ability and success in some way . It happens all the time in almost all sports and even in business. It happened to Mansell , Sheene, Fogarty, it'll happen to Hamilton as well ("he's always had the best car".)

If you look at American race reports from the 60s there is almost seldom anything but complete reverence for Graham's skill at the wheel of any kind of race car. No one suggests a lack of natural ability but, as we all appreciate, success is not scorned in the US as it often is in England. Quite the reverse.

Jim Clark, being a Scot, didn't suffer this as Scotland, like the USA and in fact almost anywhere apart from England, is not afraid to champion it's champions in the proper way.

#22 COUGAR508

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 20:07

Originally posted by brakedistance
I agree with all of the comments about Damon being a gent. The older I get, the more I grow to dislike the childish spats (see Hamilton/Alonso etc.), wish that other drivers could follow the example of the Hills. Great racing comes from movements on the track, not arguments off it, and there's a reason why Ronnie Peterson and Gilles Villeneuve are loved by fans like me who never even saw them race!

Richard Williams has written a fantastic book called "Racers" about the 1996 F1 season. In it, he shares his belief that even when Damon was finally a consistent winner, Frank Williams had no real faith that Damon could get the job done. I think Damon was a fantastic driver, but was never bored during his dominant wins as there was always a fear that he would make a big mistake! Somehow with Schumacher you knew that was never going to happen...


Damon was, and is, indeed a gentleman. There were plenty of occasions during his F1 career when he could have been forgiven for losing his cool in a big way, particularly during his run-ins with Schumacher. He always displayed admirable restraint and dignity.

I agree with you about the Richard Williams book, Racers. I will now have to dust off my own copy and read it again!

#23 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 21:14

The last person to sit in the cockpit of a gra..., sorry, formula one car in recent years that I genuinely liked was Damon Hill. He always seemed to have his head screwed on correctly and acted like an adult. He came into f1 late in life, relatively speaking, and had the level of maturity that is now, with only the rare exception, a thing of the long, distant past. His father was a great racing driver, someone with genuine talent and the moxie to succeed in spite of everything. I have always had nothing but the greatest of respect for Phil Hill, a genuine racer, just like the other two Hills I have mentioned.

#24 David Lawson

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 21:44

I was sitting in the Hailwoods cafe at Brands Hatch earlier this year, it was at a race meeting which included the first round of the Ginetta Junior championship. Damon and Josh Hill strolled into the cafe, queued for some lunch at the self service counter then brought their meals over to the adjacent table to mine.

This was a simple scene of a man out with his son quietly guiding him through his first race meeting. I could hear Damon giving Josh a few general pointers but this was certainly no overbearing parent and it says something of Damon Hill that he chose the public cafe rather than the private paddock hospitality.

Very much an ordinary man.

David

#25 ex Rhodie racer

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 21:58

Originally posted by simonlewisbooks
The British press love to pidgeon-hole people and 'worker rather than natural talent' is one of those pidgeon-holes that was applied by some well-meaning scribe and then copied by others ever after - and onto the next generation as well.

I always thought this a very English way of assessing national heroes, to underplay or understate ability and success in some way . It happens all the time in almost all sports and even in business. It happened to Mansell , Sheene, Fogarty, it'll happen to Hamilton as well ("he's always had the best car".)

If you look at American race reports from the 60s there is almost seldom anything but complete reverence for Graham's skill at the wheel of any kind of race car. No one suggests a lack of natural ability but, as we all appreciate, success is not scorned in the US as it often is in England. Quite the reverse.

Jim Clark, being a Scot, didn't suffer this as Scotland, like the USA and in fact almost anywhere apart from England, is not afraid to champion it's champions in the proper way.

There is a lot of truth in that.

#26 Kingsleyrob

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Posted 24 September 2008 - 07:26

Originally posted by David Lawson
I was sitting in the Hailwoods cafe at Brands Hatch earlier this year, it was at a race meeting which included the first round of the Ginetta Junior championship. Damon and Josh Hill strolled into the cafe, queued for some lunch at the self service counter then brought their meals over to the adjacent table to mine.

This was a simple scene of a man out with his son quietly guiding him through his first race meeting. I could hear Damon giving Josh a few general pointers but this was certainly no overbearing parent and it says something of Damon Hill that he chose the public cafe rather than the private paddock hospitality.

Very much an ordinary man.

David


I can echo this David, to save repeating myself the story is told on post 1515 here

http://forums.autosp...=&pagenumber=38

Top bloke :up:

Rob :wave:

#27 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 24 September 2008 - 08:58

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
The last person to sit in the cockpit of a gra..., sorry, formula one car in recent years that I genuinely liked was Damon Hill. He always seemed to have his head screwed on correctly and acted like an adult. He came into f1 late in life, relatively speaking, and had the level of maturity that is now, with only the rare exception, a thing of the long, distant past.


This is a very interesting point. Hill had also done years of real every-day wage-earning work before driving a race car and hadn't spent his childhood behind the wheel of a kart.

Almost all the current F1 grid have been, in effect, 'professional racing drivers' since the age of 8 or 9 and never experienced the real world outside. Naturally this must give them a rather different and somewhat restricted outlook on life compared to the rest of us - the kind of child-prodigy view of young musicians, tennis players, swimmers, etc.

Frankly it makes many (most?) of them pretty dull personalities. It also means many of them didn't actually get where they are from considered personal choice but from the ambition of their parents. You wonder what psychological effect that has long-term?

#28 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 24 September 2008 - 10:55

A few child-prodigy drivers here and there is one thing, but grids full of them is another thing entirely.

#29 brakedistance

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Posted 24 September 2008 - 19:19

Originally posted by fines

Oh, like Spa '94, Adelaide '94, Monaco '96, Italy '96, Hungary '98, Spa '98, Monaco '00... I'm sure I missed a lot! Mind you, he was skilled (or lucky) enough to get away with some of them!


Fair point! I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy those races!