201 replies to this topic

[Adam F]

I think the best candidate for the identity of the two photos of the ERA with race number 10 is Jock Somervail in R12B.
From the rather indistinct photos the car has most of the features of R12B, including the different coloured chassis, and Somervail raced in Libre races at Snetterton in both 1953 and 1954.

[bradbury west]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Stephen W
[B]Some More Track Shots: Above: assembly area. Post 80
I have been looking through period A/Sports and can offer the following as suggestions, based purely on pictures and reports, and I suspect they are from separate meetings.
Coupe in left foreground possibly Roy Clarkson's coupe body on Vanguard engined Morgan Plus 4, 2 pictures in 2 events, and Forrest Lycett's 8 litre Bentley rearground behind it. A/S report 17.4.53 for sprint. This event was wet for most of the day. 880yrd sprint. D Wilkinson ran an ERA

Report 24.4.53 AMOC
John Goldschmidt's Performance Special, Leaf powered was very fast in a handicap, perhaps the reason for their truck to be there . F Libre race had Wharton, Cooper Bristol, Eric Thompson Connaught, Bob Gerard Cooper Bristol in case you recognise anything, Peter Whitehead's Cooper Alta
F2 race saw Bennett's Cooper Vincent, possibly the twin pot f3 car discussed.
Graham Whitehead was in an ERA B type, Ron Flockhart in his, though I thought that was R4D

Report for May 1 issue Eastern Counties MC, looks a dry meeting
Archie was out in the Tojeiro of 1097cc, so possibly Asteroid "driven as never before". In another event he was in his MG. Brian Lister was in the Asteroid in a different wet sprint. Baxter was out in a Healey of 2443cc so a Silverstone, and W J Jacobs in an Allard, -in one shot from 3/4 right rear in Steve's shots.?

Report for June 5 issue West Essex event. Barber's Golding Cooper was in the handicap race. Alan Brown was in a Cooper Bristol, plain front, and Tony Rolt was in a Connaught, blanked off lower intake in white and a white band over top of nose. Baxter was again in the Healey, no 41. There was also a Bentley only race, see Steve's picture.
The Golding Cooper had a second race, sports cars, and Dennis Poore braked hard in his DB3S to avoid a spinning car and was rammed by the Golding Cooper, with damage to both, hence the Poore transporter at the track, Coopers' truck perhaps there for one of the single seaters too.
In ERAs there were Flockhart, and Alastair Birrell in the ex Flockhart R1A
Perhaps this might help to identify some cars
Roger Lund

[bradbury west]

Originally posted by Stephen W
Another shot of the ERA:

Is that an Allard behind the ERA?
RL

[bradbury west]

Car 41 behind right of the ERA in post 70 is a Healey Silverstone, near the Citroen Onze/Lt 15?, so A C Baxter's car at the meeting reported in June 5 issue, so we need to include Rodney Nuckey's Cooper Bristol in the equation, 4th until Ian Stewart caught him in the Connaught, Nuckey possibly the lighter car leading in the 3 single seaters shot.
OT. at the USAF Trophy meeting in July there is a shot of a young Phil Hill spectating with Colonel Dorrington, Bill Spear and Major General Francis H Griswold.
RL

[bradbury west]

Post 80 car inside/foreground with the Healey may be "BMW Bristol" of Wiley, which I found pictured in MS digital archive at half Litre Club meeting at Snetterton in '53, but which I cannot now re-find.
RL

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by bradbury west

Is that an Allard behind the ERA?
RL

Certainly looks like one.

[Dutchy]

Re. post 102.

I concede the E.R.A. is in all probability R1A. The car in the photo has a lower bonnet line than standard and R1A was thus modified by Wilkie Wilkinson during the Ashmore brothers ownership in 1948. This together with the small tail ( I understand they came in three sizes) make it pretty certain.

The Cooper twin referred to is definitely not Vincent v-twin powered. The engine is clearly a parallel twin, most likely a Triumph but one possibility not mentioned before is a Norton Dominator - over to HiRich on this one.

[Graham Gauld]

Bradbury West
You are quite correct about the Roy Clarkson Coupe Morgan. My friend Sandy Forrest bought the car from Roy way back in the late '50s to early '60s and we used to share it on rallies. Ironically Sandy, who lives in Inverness now, was visited a few weeks ago by the present owner of the same Morgan Coupe. It looked like that because Roy had bought a Ferrari Coupe, loved the styling but hated the car as it always broke down so he bought a Morgan chassis and had a local coachbuilder try to replicate the Ferrari body.

[HiRich]

Originally posted by bradbury west
I have been looking through period A/Sports and can offer the following as suggestions, based purely on pictures and reports, and I suspect they are from separate meetings.
Coupe in left foreground possibly Roy Clarkson's coupe body on Vanguard engined Morgan Plus 4, 2 pictures in 2 events, and Forrest Lycett's 8 litre Bentley rearground behind it. A/S report 17.4.53 for sprint. This event was wet for most of the day. 880yrd sprint. D Wilkinson ran an ERA

Report 24.4.53 AMOC
John Goldschmidt's Performance Special, Leaf powered was very fast in a handicap, perhaps the reason for their truck to be there . F Libre race had Wharton, Cooper Bristol, Eric Thompson Connaught, Bob Gerard Cooper Bristol in case you recognise anything, Peter Whitehead's Cooper Alta
F2 race saw Bennett's Cooper Vincent, possibly the twin pot f3 car discussed.
Graham Whitehead was in an ERA B type, Ron Flockhart in his, though I thought that was R4D

Report for May 1 issue Eastern Counties MC, looks a dry meeting
Archie was out in the Tojeiro of 1097cc, so possibly Asteroid "driven as never before". In another event he was in his MG. Brian Lister was in the Asteroid in a different wet sprint. Baxter was out in a Healey of 2443cc so a Silverstone, and W J Jacobs in an Allard, -in one shot from 3/4 right rear in Steve's shots.?

Report for June 5 issue West Essex event. Barber's Golding Cooper was in the handicap race. Alan Brown was in a Cooper Bristol, plain front, and Tony Rolt was in a Connaught, blanked off lower intake in white and a white band over top of nose. Baxter was again in the Healey, no 41. There was also a Bentley only race, see Steve's picture.
The Golding Cooper had a second race, sports cars, and Dennis Poore braked hard in his DB3S to avoid a spinning car and was rammed by the Golding Cooper, with damage to both, hence the Poore transporter at the track, Coopers' truck perhaps there for one of the single seaters too.
In ERAs there were Flockhart, and Alastair Birrell in the ex Flockhart R1A
Perhaps this might help to identify some cars
Roger Lund

Looks interesting.
AMOC, 24/04/53
My first question, are you sure about the date? I have an Iota report for an AMOC race meeting at Snetterton, 18/04 - seems a little odd to me that they would have consecutive meetings.
For 18/04, there's a definite mismatch. The early Cooper 500, No 28 (in Post 53), specifically does not match the Cooper Mk V of Rob Anderson in the 500 race (in a photo in Iota). Incidentally, this car has a roll hoop like the Car 21.
Iota also lists summary results for three Sports Car Handicaps, an Aston Martin Handicap, an Invitation Sports Car race, A Formula Libre race and a Formula II race. All the Libre cars you mention are listed, plus Goldschmidt. So I'd suggest one of us has the wrong date.
It does say to me that the two Coopers, plus Bugatti are not from that meeting.
However, I think you may be onto something with the Bennett Cooper Vincent. In 1953 no-one was racing a Cooper F3 with anything other than JAP or Norton (except Henry Taylor, and we know it's not his car). So it's either a sprint/hill F3, or a larger engine.

West Essex CC Snetterton Sprint 12/04/53
The same issue of Iota has a brief note of this meeting. Again, sounds like the same event, different dates?

Other Snetterton Formula III meetings in 1953 are 30th May (No Car 28), 27th June (possible, Car 28 would be the Universal Motor Racing Club car, the first race car Graham Hill ever drove), 11th July (wrong car 28), 25th July (possible, but unlikely), 1st August (not ebough information), 12th September (wrong car 28) and 17th October (wrong car 28).
I don't have any HLCC meetings at Snetterton in 1953.

So I'm leaning towards:
- Our mystery photographer made several trips to Snetterton.
- The Cooper/Bugatti shot (Post 53) might be from the 12th April (or 17th, depending on which date is correct).
- If it's from the AMOC 18th (or 24th) there would have to be a second car running No 28. Without access to a programme, that does seem unlikely.

[bradbury west]

My date references are to the date of the issue day of the Autosport copy. I thought I made that reasonably clear, sorry if it confuses. BTW the Vincent idea was just a long shot as the twin may have signified a larger engine, as in the F2 race idea where the car was admitted late due to non-starters.

Graham; In view of your story above, I suspect that the Ferrari-esque Morgan coupe is the one of which you posted a photograph some time ago.
Roger Lund

[Graham Gauld]

YUP same car

[bradbury west]

Originally posted by Graham Gauld
YUP same car

the reg no is the same.RL
http://forums.autosp...t=Sandy Forrest
post 3 refers. In the A/S pictures it had a blank sheet over the grill, possibly cold weather, and what looked like a door mounted hand-operated spotlight on the o/s dor, possibly for sign spotting in night rallies.
Roger Lund.

[uechtel]

Originally posted by bradbury west
Post 80 car inside/foreground with the Healey may be "BMW Bristol" of Wiley, which I found pictured in MS digital archive at half Litre Club meeting at Snetterton in '53, but which I cannot now re-find.
RL

Oh, this sounds interesting. Can you give any more details about this car?

[Adam F]

Originally posted by Dutchy
Re. post 102.
I concede the E.R.A. is in all probability R1A. The car in the photo has a lower bonnet line than standard and R1A was thus modified by Wilkie Wilkinson during the Ashmore brothers ownership in 1948. This together with the small tail ( I understand they came in three sizes) make it pretty certain.

Yes, it is Birrell's R1A at Snetterton on 30th May 1953 (My mistake - not R12B!)
Thanks to RAP (Richard Page) for searching his programme collection to provide the necessary confirmation.

[Stephen W]

The car above has been identified as being either a Turner or a Tojeiro with Chris Threfall the owner on both counts. Is it a Turner or a Tojeiro?

Now for some more:


Above: A Bugatti at what I assume is Silverstone, but I am no longer certain!


Above: A Bugatti at Prescott


Above: Another Bugatti but this time a monoposto


Above: the cockpit of the monoposto Bugatti

[Dutchy]

The car of Chris Threlfall is a Turner.

The monoposto Bugatti is the famous Peter Stubberfield T35B. Stubberfield made it into a single seater and I think one of the first pictures on this tread shows it in 2 seater form.
Later this car was owned by Frank Wall and raced very successfully by Hamish Moffatt.After that it disappeared into the collection of Fuad Majzub and was rebodied ,still as a single seater but different from what it was. A mistake in my view.

[fines]

Certainly one wild contraption! Look at that steering wheel!!!

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by Dutchy
The car of Chris Threlfall is a Turner.

The monoposto Bugatti is the famous Peter Stubberfield T35B. Stubberfield made it into a single seater and I think one of the first pictures on this tread shows it in 2 seater form.
Later this car was owned by Frank Wall and raced very successfully by Hamish Moffatt.After that it disappeared into the collection of Fuad Majzub and was rebodied ,still as a single seater but different from what it was. A mistake in my view.

Thanks for clarifying the Chris Threlfall car.

I thought the monoposto Bugatti was the Stubberfield car but was confused with the different bodywork.

[Stephen W]

Some more photos:



Above: this still eludes identification.


Above: a monoposto Maserati?

[Graham Gauld]

Car 50 is the original Cycle wing Tojeiro bought by Chris Threlfall . Tojeiro was building the car for himself when Chris Threlfall first saw it and Threlfall persuaded Tojeiro to sell him that car. It was always quoted as having an MG engine but in fact was a modified Morris 10 engine bought from a scrapyard.

The Maserati is surely the Whitney Straight car when it was in its more shoddy and original state.

[Dutchy]

The Maserati is the ex Straight/Bira 8CM. It would have been owned by HC Spero at the time.

[Stephen W]

Thanks for the swift replies gentlemen.

The good news is the Canon 8800F Flat Bed Scanner has just arrived so I am planning to start scanning the negs in the next day or two.

[Charles Helps]

Originally posted by Graham Gauld
Car 50 is the original Cycle wing Tojeiro bought by Chris Threlfall . Tojeiro was building the car for himself when Chris Threlfall first saw it and Threlfall persuaded Tojeiro to sell him that car. It was always quoted as having an MG engine but in fact was a modified Morris 10 engine bought from a scrapyard.

Presumably the original incarnation of this one

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by Charles Helps
Presumably the original incarnation of this one

Certainly has the same registration number!

[Stephen W]

Now this is the FIRST negative that I have scanned in from the horde; the quality looks pretty good in comparison with the scans from the prints.

[uechtel]

Wow, and it couldn´t start better for me than with a Veritas in the picture!

So please please tell anybody who when and where!

[Leigh Trevail]

The Bugatti with a faded 47 painted on the radiator may be that of Ben Wyatt's.

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by uechtel
Wow, and it couldn´t start better for me than with a Veritas in the picture!

So please please tell anybody who when and where!

Haven't a clue old boy! I bought a batch of 200 photos off EBAY and when they arrived there were some negatives as well. The one you refer to is one such image.

By the way I have several more "unprinted" negs featuring Bugattis which I will scan and post later today.

[Adam F]

Originally posted by uechtel
please please tell anybody who when and where!

Markus,

From the photos which have already been posted it is most likely Snetterton in around 1953 or 54, but that's just my guess!

ADAM

[Stephen W]

Now these are a few of the Bugattis. These are from scanned negatives rather than the old faded prints. Some are a bit fuzzy due to camera shake!


Above: another shot of No 38


Above: No 25


Above: another shot of No 25


Above: the final shot of No 25


Above: GJ 53 aka No 16


Above: LMF 961


Above: another shot of LMF 961

[Leigh Trevail]

The Bugatti registered GJ 53 was definately Ben Wyatts car, I believe that it was destroyed in a fire at Jim Keeble's workshop in Ipswich, sadly a mechanic died in the blaze.

Ben ran a plant hire company over the otherside of the A11 from Snetterton Heath Circuit, the buildings and water tower can often be seen in the background of pictures of cars racing on the Norwich Straight. Ben and his brother John were instrumentle in getting the circuit started and his machinery was used to make the spectator bankings.

[Haje]

The Type 43 / GJ 53 = 43161
The Type 35 / LMF 961 = 4888
The Type 57 / OPJ 2 = 57176

[Dutchy]

OPJ 2 was "Twink" Whincop's T57, later owned and raced for many years by Averil Scott-Moncrieff.

The Bugatti under the cover NRT 555 in the last photo is a T35T (2.3 litres unblown) which was owned in recent years by the late Frank Wall. I can't remember who owned it in the 1950s

[uechtel]

Originally posted by Adam F


Markus,

From the photos which have already been posted it is most likely Snetterton in around 1953 or 54, but that's just my guess!

ADAM

Well, for what I can recognize it should be Crook´s car from 1949, registration NPG-500. This was offered for sale in winter 1953/54:



But this does not help us much further. Here is my list of the Snetterton events

27.05.1952 Aston Martin Owners´ Club
01.06.1952 500 cc Car Club
27.06.1953 West Essex CC
09.10.1954 Title?

Perhaps somebody can complete the list. Can we find a Bugatti Owners´ Club meeting?

Also I think it must be a date around June / July, the sun very high und very short shadows. And obviously a day without rain, perhaps somebody in Britain will remember that...

[Leigh Trevail]

The 'old boy' on post 119 looks a bit like Sir Charles Bunbury, he was the President of the Eastern Counties Motor Club. The club held their first event at Snetterton on 26th April 1952.

[Stephen W]

Thanks one and all for the fabulous information coming through. I'll post some more pictures later when I have a bit more time.

The scanning meanwhile is coming along nicely if a bit slow (having to do one neg at a time!)

[Stephen W]

Now for some parked Bugattis:


Above: No 16 and No 17 (PL 3265)


Above: another shot of 16 & 17


Above: a spectator's Bugatti, possibly at Silverstone for the GP?



Above: two photos of AUL 23


Above: 127 TB outside the Palace


Above: a roadside shot of a Bugatti complete with companion.

[Dutchy]

The T35B or C parked at the GP is LMF961 which appears in your Snetterton shots

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by Dutchy
The T35B or C parked at the GP is LMF961 which appears in your Snetterton shots

Thanks, I was so busy I hadn't spotted the same registration number!

[Leigh Trevail]

Re. Bugatti reg no. GJ 53 aka No 16...

I have conversed with Ben Wyatt’ nephew Chris, GJ 53 is Ben’s car, but it is not Ben sitting in it, Chris thinks it’s Peter Wren but I disagree. However we both agree that the picture was not taken at Snetterton but five miles east at Fersfield, the farm house in the background gives it away. There were three meetings held here, all organised by the ECMC. I have the programmes for the first two, and Ben was not number 16 in either, so presumably the photo was taken at the final meeting on 7th October 1951.

Just to be pedantic; the Bradford pick up was painted Caterpillar Yellow and the chap standing beside it was called Jack Brown.

[Ted Walker]

AUL 23 is the Jim Berry T43?? Special, that i think he put into a lake at a northern hillclimb in the 50s

[Stephen W]

Thanks Leigh & Ted, most helpful. I will post some more photos later today.

[Stephen W]

Some time later today:



Above: PL 3265 at home plus a photo of the engine.



Above: HED 21 parked in the paddock and then reversing out.


Above: No 47 on track.


Above: an over-panned shot of a Bugatti with an interesting background.


Above: a Bugatti on track at Silverstone?


Above: another Bugatti goes past the pits


Above: the final Bugatti past the pits photo


Above: a Bugatti in the Pits

[Haje]

Hello

Does someone knows where (The Palace) these pictures of the Type 55 (AUL 23 / 55223) were taken

Haje

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Haje
Hello

Does someone knows where (The Palace) these pictures of the Type 55 (AUL 23 / 55223) were taken

Haje

It's The Palace Hotel, Buxton:

http://www.barcelo-h...on-palace-hotel

[Leigh Trevail]

Re. Post 130 2nd & 3rd photos and Post 137 1st & 2nd photos.

These photographs correspond with the Snetterton programme for 25th of April 1953, the meeting was held by the E.C.M.C. The registration numbers were taken from photographs that I cannot post for reasons of copyright.

16. S. Gumble Type 35B 2261cc(s) LMF 961
17. R. Walsh Type 38 1955cc PL 3265 Entered by S. Gumble
25. A. Hind Type 57 3257cc DPJ 2 Entered by S. Boshier

S. Gumble lived in Sudbury, Suffolk. Can anybody add to this?

A. Hind might have been from the family that owned Bonds department store in Norwich, this is now part of John Lewis.

Stan Boshier was a one half of Boshier & Patterden of Norwich. They were Healey, Bristol and
Lea Francis agents, Stan raced a Jaguar XK120

[Stephen W]

Thanks Leigh. This whole thing is slowly coming together. Once I have some time I'll post some more but just doing a cursory flit through the various forums during a tea-break!

[Leigh Trevail]

For my money this has been one of the best threads on the Forum since I joined, obviously the local content helped sway my opinion, however its creator seems to have abandoned it. Stephen please, please can resurrect your thread!!!!

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by Leigh Trevail
For my money this has been one of the best threads on the Forum since I joined, obviously the local content helped sway my opinion, however its creator seems to have abandoned it. Stephen please, please can resurrect your thread!!!!

Not exactly Leigh, been somewhat busy with other things (sorting out other photos & Christmas) anyway one of my New Year resolutions was to get back to posting more photos!










I am assuming these are all from the British GP at Silverstone in 1950.

[David McKinney]

1951 (no BRMs in the 1950 race)