96 replies to this topic

[Enkei]

I think this deserves a place of its own.

Am I the only one that thinks that Massa's pass on Webber was not within the rules?
Massa left the track, he passed the white line with all 4 wheels and overtook Webber.

Now if we apply the same logic a lot of people did when Hamilton tried to overtake Raikkonen at Spa, he gained an advantage by going off the track.

Had he not gone off the track, he would not get past Webber and had to try the other side or wait a lap.
What are those white lines for again?

Don't get me wrong, I didn't think there was anything wrong with Hamilton's pass back then or Massa's now, but why are cases treaded differently while they are so much the same?

If you are to enforce the rules, do it in a consequent way, but I guess we can give up hope on that one.

[MikeTekRacing]

no penalty here

[Enkei]

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing

no penalty here

Alonso passed the white pit lane exit line there, not the circuit marking line.

[Anomander]

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing

no penalty here

And there have being cases of no penalty for how Lewis drove at the first turn and also in Spa, didn't stop them thou.

[Enkei]

Does anyone have a replay of the pass?
I'd like to see it again.

[BMW_F1]

man.. that was almost suicidal what Webber did.. pushing Massa all the way to the pit wall like that..

[pgj]

No penalty under the rules as they stand.

I have often wondered why it is that cars coming out of the pitlane have to observe the entrance lane back onto the track yet cars on the track can go into the same area of the track and risk a collision with a car leaving the pits.

No penalty today, but the rules need to be changed on safety grounds.

[Gilles4Ever]

Originally posted by pgj
No penalty under the rules as they stand.

I have often wondered why it is that cars coming out of the pitlane have to observe the entrance lane back onto the track yet cars on the track can go into the same area of the track and risk a collision with a car leaving the pits.

No penalty today, but the rules need to be changed on safety grounds.

Pit are on the straight
corner at the end of the straight favoured overtaking place
you cant take away half the width of the straight

[Ross Stonefeld]

You'd have to penalise Webber then for forcing him off the track and into a dangerous situation.

[osj]

I'm actually a Ferrari fan and rooting for Massa, but I thought this move was insane. If a car had been coming out of the pits, it would have been a disaster. I'm also wondering whether it was legal for Massa to run over the shaded area on the track.

If that manoeuvre isn't illegal, it should be.

[paffett4F1]

Originally posted by BMW_F1
man.. that was almost suicidal what Webber did.. pushing Massa all the way to the pit wall like that..

Webber did not push Massa to the wall, he'd already gone v defensive when Massa went for the inside line - it was bad decision making by FM, there was loads of room to go round the outside.

[BMW_F1]

Originally posted by paffett4F1



Webber did not push Massa to the wall, he'd already gone v defensive when Massa went for the inside line - it was bad decision making by FM, there was loads of room to go round the outside.

Massa when to the inside when there was room there.. Webber kept going to the left and closing in on Massa, at one point he swerves to the right . This is unnecessary when he has 10 meters of track to his left..

[peroa]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
You'd have to penalise Webber then for forcing him off the track and into a dangerous situation.

So, Webbo already as far to the right as it gets and Massa (despite having the whole left side of the track for himself) choosing to go right of Webbo once the pit exit starts is all Webbo`s fault?

[peroa]

Originally posted by BMW_F1


Massa when to the inside when there was room there.. Webber kept going to the left and closing in on Massa, at one point he swerves to the right . This is unnecessary when he has 10 meters of track to his left..

The "room" started to become available with the pit exit ...

[Ross Stonefeld]

So without it Webber possibly would have caused an accident.

[peroa]

Without what?

[bankoq]

Originally posted by Enkei
I think this deserves a place of its own.

Am I the only one that thinks that Massa's pass on Webber was not within the rules?
Massa left the track, he passed the white line with all 4 wheels and overtook Webber.

But he was still 4 wheels on the track so I don't see gaining any advantage.

The move was insane and dangerous for both drivers but I think it's different matter imho.

[paffett4F1]

Originally posted by BMW_F1


Massa when to the inside when there was room there.. Webber kept going to the left and closing in on Massa, at one point he swerves to the right . This is unnecessary when he has 10 meters of track to his left..

MW had already gone really tight, I agree he did a dink when massa was along side but he did not swerve.

FM haad bags of room on the other side to use.

[primer]

Well if you go on the outside there's always a chance for the driver on the inside to modulate his braking so that it destroys your speed coming out of the corner, thus resulting in a failed overtaking move.

[Enkei]

Originally posted by bankoq


But he was still 4 wheels on the track so I don't see gaining any advantage.

The move was insane and dangerous for both drivers but I think it's different matter imho.

No he was not. Specially for you again: the white lines mark the circuit. If you cross those, you're off circuit/ off track. There's no difference other then at Spa it was at a chicane and here it was the main straight.

[bond]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
You'd have to penalise Webber then for forcing him off the track and into a dangerous situation.

Massa choose to go outside...
Webber stays right next to the line and doesn't moves beyond the line...
Go and watch the race again...

[bond]

Originally posted by bankoq


But he was still 4 wheels on the track so I don't see gaining any advantage.

The move was insane and dangerous for both drivers but I think it's different matter imho.

So he got past but didn't get any advantage...

[Gilles4Ever]

Originally posted by bond





Massa choose to go outside...
Webber stays right next to the line and doesn't moves beyond the line...
Go and watch the race again...

Webber didn't stay anywhere, he kept moving right even when Massa was alongside

[bond]

Originally posted by Gilles4Ever


Webber didn't stay anywhere, he kept moving right even when Massa was alongside

He stayed right next to the line, go and watch the race...

[Italiano Tifoso]

Originally posted by Enkei
I think this deserves a place of its own.

Am I the only one that thinks that Massa's pass on Webber was not within the rules?
Massa left the track, he passed the white line with all 4 wheels and overtook Webber.

Now if we apply the same logic a lot of people did when Hamilton tried to overtake Raikkonen at Spa, he gained an advantage by going off the track.

Had he not gone off the track, he would not get past Webber and had to try the other side or wait a lap.
What are those white lines for again?

Don't get me wrong, I didn't think there was anything wrong with Hamilton's pass back then or Massa's now, but why are cases treaded differently while they are so much the same?

If you are to enforce the rules, do it in a consequent way, but I guess we can give up hope on that one.

I think this is a case of clutching at straws.

Massa didn't cut a corner, he went for the inside, was pushed offline by Webber and still made the move stick. If we go on punishing every single 50/50 move in F1 then we will really have a processional event every 2 weeks.

I think it was within the limits of the rules.

It was a great race though.

Pressure is now on Lewis; two tracks coming up which really suit Ferrari... 6 points difference...

[Gilles4Ever]

Originally posted by bond


He stayed right next to the line, go and watch the race...

Mate, I am not the one who has to go watch again if you believe Webber didn't move over

[hermitkid]

Originally posted by bond


He stayed right next to the line, go and watch the race...

Webber clearly squeezed him, are you that visually challenged?

[bond]

He wasn't pushed offline by webber, they were not side by side when massa goes outside, massa was behind when webber approaches the line...
Go and watch again...

[Anomander]

Originally posted by Italiano Tifoso

If we go on punishing every single 50/50 move in F1 then we will really have a processional event every 2 weeks.

We'll save that for a McLaren driver

[bond]

Originally posted by hermitkid


Webber clearly squeezed him, are you that visually challenged?

Are you so blind that you can't see that webber goes to the right but never crosses the line, massa is the one who crosses the line to pass webber...
Webber goes right next to the line and massa waits for the end of the pits to pass him...
Go and watch it again, i did...

[Gilles4Ever]

oh come on, massa was alongside him with only 2 wheels over the line then webber kept moving

[Cenotaph]

I think Massa should be banned from all forms of motorsport for his entire life for this.

[Kilomeister]

This is getting a bit silly. It seems just about everything is being touted for a penalty these days. Lord above, we want to see racing don't we? We've seen drivers using the pit exit in an overtaking manoeuvrer a million times before. As far as i'm concerned, it was a good, aggressive overtaking move by Massa.

[Enkei]

Originally posted by Kilomeister
This is getting a bit silly. It seems just about everything is being touted for a penalty these days. Lord above, we want to see racing don't we? We've seen drivers using the pit exit in an overtaking manoeuvrer a million times before. As far as i'm concerned, it was a good, aggressive overtaking move by Massa.

Oh I do want to see racing, but don't penalise one incident and close your eyes for another one.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

If anyone should be penalized, it should be Webber. He has a history of being thuggish in his defense of position, and it was he who pushed Massa to the edge of the track and over the white line.

[bond]

Originally posted by Gilles4Ever
oh come on, massa was alongside him with only 2 wheels over the line then webber kept moving

Sorry but the rules say you must race within the track, not outside...

[DarthWillie]

Massa put himself in a bad situation, normaly it should not be punished, HOWEVER....... in the back of my mind I keep thinking a McLaren driver would be punished.

[paffett4F1]

Originally posted by Kilomeister
This is getting a bit silly. It seems just about everything is being touted for a penalty these days. Lord above, we want to see racing don't we? We've seen drivers using the pit exit in an overtaking manoeuvrer a million times before. As far as i'm concerned, it was a good, aggressive overtaking move by Massa.

I'm with you regarding the penalty, but I disagree that it was a good move, he should not have put himself in such a risky position, bad decision making by FM, not for the first time in this race.

[Tolyngee]

Originally posted by Enkei
Does anyone have a replay of the pass?
I'd like to see it again.

I couldn't help but be reminded of this:



or this in particular:

[Kilomeister]

Originally posted by Enkei


Oh I do want to see racing, but don't penalise one incident and close your eyes for another one.

I also find it a worrying development that if one driver gets a penalty some people think you have to punish another driver for a separate incident to somehow 'even everything out' (indeed, it seems this is the stewards' mindset for the most part these days). Every incident is separate and each has to be considered in its individual context and merits.

By the way Enkei, you'll see elsewhere on this forum I've said that I don't think Lewis deserved a penalty for his first corner move (though the move was idiotic). The penalty Massa got probably was deserved though, certainly within the current F1 context.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Cenotaph
I think Massa should be banned from all forms of motorsport for his entire life for this.

I thought Webber was at fault here, to me it definitely looked like he squeezed Massa almost into the pit-wall, but ever since Senna did the same thing to Prost "almost" is OK. :

[boatbuilder]

Question : HOW did Webber push FM when he was clearly in front at the moment he went defensive???
it was Fem who chose to go to the right of him and the replay shows he was in the pit lane before the merge line

[gincarnated]

Shame it wasn't Lewis in Webber position or we'd have a 6 page thread by now.

[Deeq]

Webbers defense was "old style" ...;)
Schumi snr did a carbon copy of this to Schumi jr at the lite_Ring
Senna to Prost in Portugal 89 was very similar too

[noikeee]

Webber's fault. Should've got a warning for it, and a penalty in the coming races if he decides to pull similar stunts.

[ZZMS]

Originally posted by Enkei


No he was not. Specially for you again: the white lines mark the circuit. If you cross those, you're off circuit/ off track. There's no difference other then at Spa it was at a chicane and here it was the main straight.

the difference is that Massa didn't short cut anything and didn't travel any less distance.

[Tenmantaylor]

Just let them race FFS.

That said if someone was coming out the pits there Massa would have received an altogether different type of drive through.

[pingu666]

Originally posted by Tenmantaylor
Just let them race FFS.

That said if someone was coming out the pits there Massa would have received an altogether different type of drive through.

sutil was out of the race, but he did parkup on the pit exit

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

Originally posted by paranoik0
Webber's fault. Should've got a warning for it, and a penalty in the coming races if he decides to pull similar stunts.

Webber's been doing this pretty much his whole career since leaving Minardi.

[panzani]

http://www.coffeecup...mages/massa.jpg