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#1401 Rinehart

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 09:48

You lot don't half blow hot and cold! - 'the 09 cars will be ugly', 'oh look the new Ferrari is beutiful', 'oh, no it isn't when its on track', 'oh hang on, from certain angles its still ok'.

I've a feeling most of you will learn to love it. For me the offending article is not the rear wing per se, but the side supports. I think it would look far better if it was supported by just a centre pillar, that would take some of the 'bookcase' look away.

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#1402 AFCA

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 09:55

Looking back at yesterday:

- The first run was done at 10:36. Another two were done half an hour later. When Massa returned in the pitbox and stepped out someone immediately said the car had lost a part in a corner. Then there was a bit of turmoil amongst the engineers. The problem took four hours to be solved. In the meantime Di Montezemolo (who was to arrive by helicopter from Rome) called to say he wasn't able to come after all.

- Costa explains his feelings: ''It's the first time that we've got the entire car assembled, it's obviousy there are teething problems: so we have to download the data, determine solutions and then try again.''

''Eventhough we were in the fight for the title till the last corner last season and eventhough we had to continue to develop the F2008, we're the first ones to have the new car on track with KERS and an engine already in 2009 configuration. Moreover, there are already other chassis' ready in the factory.''

On whether there will be two types of development: one for the race and one for the championship: will the two drivers have different programs ? "I don't know. It's too early to say. We'll see what happens when we're close to the first race."

- Tombazis: ''We're convinced that also without in-season testing we'll see more development with respect to previous years. In this way not the team that has got its act together best in the first race, but the team that has the best development in between the first and last race will dominate the season. The regulations are so new that progress will be measured in a bit more than just hundredths of a second. The car that will appear in Melbourne will already significantly differ from the one here. We wanted to hit the track as early as possible in order to remedy the problems, to present ourselves in good form in Australia and to quickly advance with the development.''

- Tombazis has indicated the wheelbase of the F60 is slightly shorter than that of the F2008. He also said about the issue: "As far as the single-seater's length is concerned I have to say that the wheelbase is something really overrated. It's not that important at all. But anyway, the fact that the car is longer is only a visual effect."

- Simon on the standard electronics: ''After one year the MES is much more developed and stable. It also seems more balanced than a year ago."

- On Thursday Gené will be at Vairano to perform a number of aerodynamic tests (that's straight line test 1 of 8 for the Scuderia this year).

- On the 19th of January the team will be at Portimao where Raikkonen will be kicking off the test duties.

- From the 10th till the 19th of February the team will be in Bahrain.

- The F60 has passed all its crash tests (it was the first to have a crash test). And as said, there are already several homologated chassis'.

- Schumacher: ''I like the new car, it's nice. All Ferrari's are always nice. Will I test it ? For the moment, no. We'll see later on...''

- As for the paint (which is now called 'rosso perlato'), I read it weighs 1 kg less than the previous colour used.

#1403 AFCA

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 10:04

Originally posted by anbeck


My Italian is not very good, what are they talking about at 2m30+?
Normally the mechanics put their hands on the car right away, but due to the KERS not anymore. The mechanics are not allowed to put their hands on the car until... some kind of inspection has taken place.

Can anybody tell me what kind of signal they're waiting for? Can the charching of the KERS be monitored via telemetry and the mechanics wait for an OK over the radio? Or does the driver discharge it and give a sign? Or can it be seen from the outside with a small LED or anything?

Thanks.


Originally posted by AFCA
When Massa returns to the box the mechanics first have to wait a little before they can touch the car...


They're waiting for an 'ok signal', I reckon they're looking at someone with a laptop measuring stuff in the pitbox...

#1404 F.M.

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 10:17

As an addition to AFCA's post:

Tombazis on the development of the F60: The F60 will be very much overhauled for the first GP. Also because this year will be dominated by the team which will be able to develop the fastest. We want to resolve all the issues as far as the mechanics and the reliability are concerned. We also want to maximise the aerodynamic development. I can confirm that also visibly the car will be really different at the first race.

#1405 Mauseri

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 10:25

Originally posted by Rinehart
For me the offending article is not the rear wing per se, but the side supports. I think it would look far better if it was supported by just a centre pillar, that would take some of the 'bookcase' look away.

:up:

#1406 Clatter

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 10:38

Originally posted by Rinehart
I've a feeling most of you will learn to love it. For me the offending article is not the rear wing per se, but the side supports. I think it would look far better if it was supported by just a centre pillar, that would take some of the 'bookcase' look away.


Not sure about learning to love it, but we will certainly get used to it, bit like grooved tyres. Personally I don't think the supports are the issue, it's the proportions, viewed head or rear on, the wing just looks too small and high for the car.

#1407 Bos

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 10:46

Originally posted by AFCA




They're waiting for an 'ok signal', I reckon they're looking at someone with a laptop measuring stuff in the pitbox...


Would driving over the grounding strips help? I couldn't really see from the video.

#1408 Clatter

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 11:07

Originally posted by Bos


Would driving over the grounding strips help? I couldn't really see from the video.


I'm more worried about the potential danger to marshalls if they have to attend to a car out on track where there are no earthing strips.

#1409 saudoso

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 11:34

Originally posted by Rinehart
You lot don't half blow hot and cold! - 'the 09 cars will be ugly', 'oh look the new Ferrari is beutiful', 'oh, no it isn't when its on track', 'oh hang on, from certain angles its still ok'.

I've a feeling most of you will learn to love it. For me the offending article is not the rear wing per se, but the side supports. I think it would look far better if it was supported by just a centre pillar, that would take some of the 'bookcase' look away.


For me the problem is in the front wing. When you look at the car head on it seems to be wider than the tyres - and it looks silly.

Everything else is or will be ok.

#1410 saudoso

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 11:39

Originally posted by AFCA




They're waiting for an 'ok signal', I reckon they're looking at someone with a laptop measuring stuff in the pitbox...


I have seen this yesterday, and how are these guys going to fix this? Marshals having to ground the car before trying to remove a driver from a burning wreck?

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You know, it just seems KERS won't have such a long life in car racing.

#1411 Rob

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 11:52

Originally posted by saudoso
I have seen this yesterday, and how are these guys going to fix this? Marshals having to ground the car before trying to remove a driver from a burning wreck?

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You know, it just seems KERS won't have such a long life in car racing.


This is why electric-based systems should be banned. Safety of the marshals should be paramount.

#1412 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 12:09

Yet, you are carrying 100litres of fuel in the car and nobody worries it ca be a bomb
it's just about perception, electricity is not at all more harmful
ban the electric systems? sure...why should we allow any area in f1 that could find applications in road use :)

#1413 craftverk

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 12:18

Originally posted by BiH
here is another attempt for wheelbase this time used autocad and photoshop....dunno if it came out good but very slight longer wheelbase and cockpit more forward


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It's shorter. The slick tires are smaller than the grooved.

It's a totally new chassis made for slicks and KERS, so it may look longer, it's just that the nose is actually thinner.

#1414 Clatter

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 12:22

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing
Yet, you are carrying 100litres of fuel in the car and nobody worries it ca be a bomb
it's just about perception, electricity is not at all more harmful
ban the electric systems? sure...why should we allow any area in f1 that could find applications in road use :)


The fuel cell is extremely well protected. When was the last time a fuel cell was ruptured causing either a spillage or a fire? KERS at the moment is an unknown and there is at least one mechanic who can testify how nasty a shock from it can be. If the mechanics in the pits are hestitating before touching the car, then you have to think about the marshalls in the event of an on track problem.

#1415 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 12:33

From the side that car is stunning (where you can't see how skinny the rear wing is) :love:

#1416 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 12:44

Originally posted by Clatter


The fuel cell is extremely well protected. When was the last time a fuel cell was ruptured causing either a spillage or a fire? KERS at the moment is an unknown and there is at least one mechanic who can testify how nasty a shock from it can be. If the mechanics in the pits are hestitating before touching the car, then you have to think about the marshalls in the event of an on track problem.

yes, but it was the first freaking test of the kers on the car! (both in bmw's case and yesterday with ferrari)
were gas tanks so safe on their first appearance?

of course everybody was hesitating before touching the car, all the systems and the idea were brand new. They will be safe enough to race.
it's funny when having 500kg cars +100fuel, suspensions of a few CM, everything made to race and be on the edge and we worry about some batteries. it's new, but it's a heck of a lot safer than the rest of the car

#1417 Slowinfastout

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 12:54

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing

yes, but it was the first freaking test of the kers on the car! (both in bmw's case and yesterday with ferrari)
were gas tanks so safe on their first appearance?

of course everybody was hesitating before touching the car, all the systems and the idea were brand new. They will be safe enough to race.
it's funny when having 500kg cars +100fuel, suspensions of a few CM, everything made to race and be on the edge and we worry about some batteries. it's new, but it's a heck of a lot safer than the rest of the car


We don't know... and possibly some of them teams don't as well... Maybe they're gambling a bit (weight) with the insulation or something... the thing is that's a new danger... in a comprehensive wreck that energy could be released in some way, or possibly just making sparks when refuelling, etc..

#1418 Clatter

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 12:58

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing

yes, but it was the first freaking test of the kers on the car! (both in bmw's case and yesterday with ferrari)
were gas tanks so safe on their first appearance?

of course everybody was hesitating before touching the car, all the systems and the idea were brand new. They will be safe enough to race.
it's funny when having 500kg cars +100fuel, suspensions of a few CM, everything made to race and be on the edge and we worry about some batteries. it's new, but it's a heck of a lot safer than the rest of the car


Your probably right and it will be safe, but with fuel it's reasonably easy to see/smell if there is a leak and take appropriate action, there is no indication if a short has occurred.

#1419 Hellenic tifosi

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 13:03

According to Steve Matchett, the same fears were shared among mechanics during the introduction of active suspension

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#1420 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 13:25

Originally posted by Clatter


Your probably right and it will be safe, but with fuel it's reasonably easy to see/smell if there is a leak and take appropriate action, there is no indication if a short has occurred.

I also agree that it's a new type of problem with its specific issues. but I am pretty sure it will be addressed
(devices to check the car without touching etc)
i worry a lot more for fire during pitstops for instance..or accidents leaving the pits

on another note though, I can't wait to see the cars racing each other...with kers, with so many modifications. there will be a lot of room for improvement and a lot of room for error and that can make things very interesting

#1421 HaPe

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 13:39

Originally posted by Poltergeistes
Well i got my Massa's merchandise for the 08 season and it said 2, since kimi was first, so what u said kinda don't make sense... they would have to change numbers anyway this season since hamilton was first...

Thats just not what I meant.

I meant (though rare) case when DriverA had "3" and DriverB the "4" in one season, and would (according the users assumption of a rule about higher standing in WDC) have DriverA the "4" and DriverB the "3" in next season.
I doubt any team would switch numbers in that case.

Plus: The changing design is a valid point, but also not for all teams. For example the design of Ferrari driver caps didnt change that often (only when the main sponsor had changed - afair).

#1422 saudoso

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 13:44

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing

yes, but it was the first freaking test of the kers on the car! (both in bmw's case and yesterday with ferrari)
were gas tanks so safe on their first appearance?

of course everybody was hesitating before touching the car, all the systems and the idea were brand new. They will be safe enough to race.
it's funny when having 500kg cars +100fuel, suspensions of a few CM, everything made to race and be on the edge and we worry about some batteries. it's new, but it's a heck of a lot safer than the rest of the car


The one big difference is that you can see the fire & smoke.

#1423 Barramut

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 13:44

Originally posted by AFCA
Looking back at yesterday:
- Tombazis: ''We're convinced that also without in-season testing we'll see more development with respect to previous years. In this way not the team that has got its act together best in the first race, but the team that has the best development in between the first and last race will dominate the season...''

Well, considering the job done by Massa and Kimi in the previous years, Ferrari is screwed.

#1424 Mauseri

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 13:51

Originally posted by Barramut
Well, considering the job done by Massa and Kimi in the previous years, Ferrari is screwed.

Errr? A driver doesnt spend hours on windtunnel or CFD destop. He can only give his opinion on the balance and driveability, not for the extreme potential of the car.

#1425 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 14:03

they should start training programs for the drivers, some technical knowledge....after all, they work only during the weekend, during the week they could spend some hours designing components.

#1426 LuNaeika

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 14:16

I don´t know what i should think :confused:
some say kimi gets the number 3, some say fia made a mistake( why should they make one?! okay, FIA makes often mistakes, but : )

???

#1427 DOHC

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 14:58

It looks slow.

#1428 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 15:07

Originally posted by LuNaeika
I don´t know what i should think :confused:
some say kimi gets the number 3, some say fia made a mistake( why should they make one?! okay, FIA makes often mistakes, but : )

???

does it really matter to him?

#1429 rce

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 15:22

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing

does it really matter to him?


Apart from the companies that manufacture the merchandise and maybe some press peeps/FIA - does it really matter to anyone - jeez, who cares - it's just a number. The only number that actually matters, imho, is #1 at the end of a race. ;)

#1430 equality

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 16:33

Originally posted by AFCA
Looking back at yesterday:


- Tombazis has indicated the wheelbase of the F60 is slightly shorter than that of the F2008. He also said about the issue: "As far as the single-seater's length is concerned I have to say that the wheelbase is something really overrated. It's not that important at all. But anyway, the fact that the car is longer is only a visual effect."




??? Didnt Ferrari build a totally new car in the middle of the 97 or the 98 season with a specific shorter wheel base?
Didnt that also affect the 2003 and 2004 cars? Didnt half the grid put spacers of about 5 cm between engine and gearbox in 1999 to increase wheelbase in a desperate and primitive attempt to claw back some traction because of the dreadfull grooved tyres?

I find this a strange statement. Its probably not hugely important but me thinks it does affect the balance. A short wheel base being more nervous but better for turn in, especially in slow corners and more demanding on tyres. A long wheel base better for stability in high speed corners. But I agree the difference between the F2008 and the F60 seems smaller than i first thought it appeared to be. Perhaps ATM_Andy could shine his light on this?

#1431 AFCA

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 17:24

F60 Technical Analysis

1 Looking at the car from the side, it look very 'clean'. The pointy and slim nose is supported by...

2 ...pillars that are very much extended forward, almost placed diagonally.

3 The nosecone is pretty high from the ground with two little, vertically placed fins underneeth it, in between the tyres.

4 The mirrors are no longer mounted on the sidepods, instead they're attached to the long aerodynamic elements that are placed vertically on top of the floor. These element in a way substitute the boomerang wings seen at that place last year.

5 The high and roundly shaped sidepods have...

6 ...little barge boards attached to them in front of the inlets.

7 The middle and rear of the sidepods have a tapering shape and are very tight despite KERS.

8 The exhaust pipes have moved a lot towards the front and they stick out of the bodywork quite a long way. The dynamic pressure has changed a bit in the exhaust manifolds, trying to limit the damage of the further reduced rev limit.

9 Not too much seems to have happened to the engine cover but the anvil wing is no longer there.

10 The planes of the rearwing, that is a lot higher and smaller, are straight but are curved towards the sides.

Posted Image

F60 - F2008 Comparison

A The nose is still very high but it's flatter at the underside to escort more air towards the rest of the car.

B The wing is as wide as it can be and only comprises of two elements.

C Small cascade wing elements are fitted to the inside of the end plates. They're no longer allowed to be fitted to the sides of the nosecone as well.

D A little vertical fin is placed on the external part of both endplates.

E The sidepod inlets are a bit smaller.

F The sidepods are 6 to 7 centimetres shorter and have a curious bulky shape on top of them (covering the lateral crash structures). This has been done in order for the front axle to be further away and to reduce the effect of the harmful turbulence coming from the front wheels. The rearend is very compact, however, the F2008 was even tighter in that area still.

G The air inlet above the driver's head is a lot more oval-shaped. The dynamic pressure changes a bit in the now, slightly bigger airbox, trying to limit the damage of the further reduced rev limit.

H The rearwing obviously has completely different dimensions but, at least for now, its planes have a rather simple design, it perhaps only being a solution quickly mounted for the launch of the car.

I The solution for the mirrors is radically different for Ferrari, although Force India had this last year already.

The lower wishbones of the front suspension (not indicated in the picture) are attached to the chassis at a higher point, and the steering link has a steeper angle also. The shift of the center of gravity to the front and the radically modified front suspension geometry should make for good use of the slick tyres. The way the suspensions work should treat any kind of compound more equal. So on paper (great) differences in performance between the hard and soft tyre compound should belong to the past.

Posted Image

#1432 F1Champion

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 17:31

I think we all know that wheelbase is important for the car's overall handling characteristics, but what Tombazis might be alluding to is that in the past couple of years, a car's wheelbase has increasing attracted alot of attention and many fans, journalists on the internet etc who have immediately predicted how a car will handle in slow/fast corners on the basis of whether the wheelbase has increased or decreased compared with the previous year. Tombazis might be pointing out that there are probably a lot more factors in play to affect slow/fast corner handling that merely the wheelbase. Weight distribution and ballast springs to mind, as does suspension and damper technology etc.

Or Tombazis might be saying that because the change in wheelbase is so small with the F60, the effect is next to nothing compared with F2008.

Personally I thought that Ferrari might opt for a longer car to increase the amount of downforce generated etc given the aero cuts helping to reduce tyre wear and possibly improving traction(?). I know that the wheelbase is usually extended to lengthen a car but I guess another way is to lengthen the nose section(which I think Ferrari has done) but is this desirable?

#1433 AFCA

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 17:33

Originally posted by F1Champion
Weight distribution and ballast springs to mind, as does suspension and damper technology etc.


Indeed, he said weight distribution is probably more important.

#1434 Gecko

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 17:45

Indeed, the effect of wheelbase on weight distribution is more important than any stabilty issues with a shorter/longer wheelbase. Pushing the front axle more forward, for example, means more weight on the rear tyres. But with different packaging the same weight distribution can be achieved in other ways, too.

#1435 equality

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 18:24

Well I guess mr Giorgo Piola and mr Scarborough should really look for new jobs then as they have spend lots of column inches about differences in wheelbase and what it does. Even Schumacher said the F2003-GA had problems because of its wheelbase, not its weight distribution. Many journalists have also mentioned it. They are all silly and are overrating its importance according to tombazis.

Off course weight distribution is more important but we can continue exagerating that too. In fact, the only important part on a car are the tyres.

And since they dont seem to work on the Ferraris for the last 5 years orso perhaps mr Tombazis should readjust what he thinks is important on a single seater.

:smoking:

#1436 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 18:43

Originally posted by equality
Well I guess mr Giorgo Piola and mr Scarborough should really look for new jobs then as they have spend lots of column inches about differences in wheelbase and what it does. Even Schumacher said the F2003-GA had problems because of its wheelbase, not its weight distribution. Many journalists have also mentioned it. They are all silly and are overrating its importance according to tombazis.

Off course weight distribution is more important but we can continue exagerating that too. In fact, the only important part on a car are the tyres.

And since they dont seem to work on the Ferraris for the last 5 years orso perhaps mr Tombazis should readjust what he thinks is important on a single seater.

:smoking:


I think that there are likely degrees to this. Some designs are underperforming due to the wheelbase being to long or too short, compared to what they have available tirewise, as well center of gravity.

Wheelbase length like all other parameters of the cars can be more or less important at different times in a rules regime, as well as the characteristics of the drivers playing in as well.

The wheel base and the weight distribution must have a correlation, and an optimized car will suffer the least ill effects compared to the cars, which needs to be compromised setup wise due to an inherrent issue in the over all balance of the car.

:cool:

#1437 LuNaeika

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 19:03

Originally posted by AFCA


The lower wishbones of the front suspension (not indicated in the picture) are attached to the chassis at a higher point, and the steering link has a steeper angle also. The shift of the center of gravity to the front and the radically modified front suspension geometry should make for good use of the slick tyres. The way the suspensions work should treat any kind of compound more equal. So on paper (great) differences in performance between the hard and soft tyre compound should belong to the past.


hope you´re right. this tyre problem is really annoying.

#1438 mursuka80

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 19:32

Originally posted by Barramut

Well, considering the job done by Massa and Kimi in the previous years, Ferrari is screwed.


2 years,1 WDC and 2 WCC.Schumacher years have really made some peoples expectations ridicoulus.

#1439 ATM_Andy

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 19:40

Originally posted by equality
A long wheel base better for stability in high speed corners. But I agree the difference between the F2008 and the F60 seems smaller than i first thought it appeared to be. Perhaps ATM_Andy could shine his light on this?


It's really not that simple i'm afraid. There are many factors that affect handling:-

Wheelbase,
Suspension Geometry,
Suspension Setup,
Ride height,
Weight Distribution,
COG,
COL,
etc etc etc

The list goes on and on. There is not one, overriding, factor that gives you the perfect setup.

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#1440 AFCA

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 19:45

Posted Image

#1441 kar

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 19:52

Mmmm that looks fun :)

#1442 Barramut

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 19:54

Originally posted by mursuka80


2 years,1 WDC and 2 WCC.Schumacher years have really made some peoples expectations ridicoulus.

[2006] 1 WDC granted by Lewis and 1 WCC granted by FIA.
[2007] 1 WCC granted by Kovalainen.

What I really meant was, the development speed was slow. IMO, ok?

#1443 Yellowmc

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 19:56

Originally posted by Barramut

[2006] 1 WDC granted by Lewis and 1 WCC granted by FIA.
[2007] 1 WCC granted by Kovalainen.


:rolleyes:

Atleast get the dates right.

#1444 equality

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 19:58

I agree Barramut. I find the 3 out of four argument highly misleading.

But I atribute the feeble development to the lack of vision of domenicali. It remains to be seen how and if that improves this year.

#1445 hello86

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 20:11

Video from Madonna di Campiglio


http://lfttua.blu.li...oom 12,13-1-09
Posted Image
Posted Image

#1446 Vegetableman

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 20:12

How is their development feeble?
They started the year with a faster car than McLaren, lost their advantage mid season and clawed it back by the end. That suggests pretty good development to me.

#1447 mey3059

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 20:14

AFCA one question ....

Kimi or Felipe ? .... who do u like more :)

not that it makes a difference ... just curious .


Thanks again for all these updates :up:

#1448 hello86

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 20:20

Originally posted by mey3059
AFCA one question ....

Kimi or Felipe ? .... who do u like more :)

not that it makes a difference ... just curious .


Thanks again for all these updates :up:


Isn´t it obvious? :lol:

Yes, big :up: :up: :up: to you :D

#1449 Lazy Prodigy

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 20:23

Originally posted by Yellowmc


:rolleyes:

Atleast get the dates right.

:lol:
Kimi is a shredder on a snowboard.

#1450 Poltergeistes

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 21:01

im sorry, but when i first saw the front picture of the f60 this is what came to my head....

[img]http://iowafarmequip...95_mf_251xe.jpg[img]

and then of couse i thought how the races will be like, that one from that movie with kevin bacon footloose ... when they are going with the loader trucks.... LMAO!

Now seriously, did the front wing really have to be that huge? the only thing it will add are more crashes.