Red Bull 2009 (merged)
#1
Posted 04 November 2008 - 23:57
2009 brings the prospect of a great battle between Vettel and Webber for supremacy. IMHO, Webber will come out on top in terms of qualifying and races in front, however Vettel will get the better surprise results and end up with more points. Should be a very interesting battle.
With the major rule changes next year, RB could struggle to match the manufacturer backed teams next year. Not sure how much Renault KERS technology they are buying, although they have definitely been progressing their own KERS development as well (ie. factory fire/alarm).
The RB5 will no doubt be a development of the reasonably successful RB4 (in the hands of Toro Rosso) with the change to slick tyres, wider front wing, and narrower/higher rear wing. Hopefully Newey can spring a surprise and RB can make a jump forward into the battle for 3rd fastest team. Here's hoping....
edit - typo 2009 corrected to 2008
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#2
Posted 05 November 2008 - 00:00
Originally posted by mark f1
So, after a reasonably promising start to 2009 , when it looked like RB could be the 4th quickest team, they fell away towards the back of the mid field.
While your crystal ball is out can I have the lottery numbers please.;)
#3
Posted 05 November 2008 - 00:08
#4
Posted 05 November 2008 - 00:12
I am fascinated to see Webber vs Vettel, as Vettel seems extremely fast and is a potential world champion. Initially i was confident Webber would beat him comfortably, but looking at the end of this season im actually thinking it may be the other way around.
If Webber beats him consistently i think people will stand up and salute Webber finally and he might get a shot at a BMW drive or something, if he loses or gets beaten easily im afraid it will probably be his last year in F1.
#5
Posted 05 November 2008 - 00:17
Originally posted by LukeM
At the beginning of the year us RBR fans(especially Webber fans) were treated to something that we had never seen before, consistently fast and fairly big points finishes. Expecting Webber to be top 8 was a delight for a while. It ended up being back to the usual fight for a lucky 7th or 8th which was sad, especially seeing the same chassis doing so well.
I am fascinated to see Webber vs Vettel, as Vettel seems extremely fast and is a potential world champion. Initially i was confident Webber would beat him comfortably, but looking at the end of this season im actually thinking it may be the other way around.
If Webber beats him consistently i think people will stand up and salute Webber finally and he might get a shot at a BMW drive or something, if he loses or gets beaten easily im afraid it will probably be his last year in F1.
I would agree that if he gets soundly beaten it could be his last season, but short of winning the championship I don't see any of the other teams hiring him.
#6
Posted 05 November 2008 - 00:35
Originally posted by Clatter
I would agree that if he gets soundly beaten it could be his last season, but short of winning the championship I don't see any of the other teams hiring him.
well considering how highly rated Vettel is right now, it will be the first real gauge for Webber as he has beaten all his team mates to date (yes he was faster than Heidfeld but overdrove often).
#7
Posted 05 November 2008 - 00:49
#8
Posted 05 November 2008 - 02:08
I agree with the general consensus that if webbers gets beaten then thats his last chance of ever getting a winning drive - he'd just end up another Fisichella.
I think he'll do fine personally - I still believe he's one of the quickest.
Fingers crossed newey pulls it out of the bag.
#9
Posted 05 November 2008 - 02:34
Toro Rosso for the front half of the year had a lesser spec Ferrari and their improvement was astounding from mid-season. I'm guessing this means the chassis design and aero were sound, just needed some more grunt or that TR were able to set-up the car better than big brother. Either way Newey built another race winner.
Vettel was relatively anonymous in the first half when his car was struggling. I predict if the RB5 is a tank, Webber will beat him (similar to Fisi's generally good showing against Sutil). If however, the car is good the battle will be very close.
#11
Posted 05 November 2008 - 02:49
Originally posted by mark f1
The RB5 will no doubt be a development of the reasonably successful RB4 (in the hands of Toro Rosso) with the change to slick tyres, wider front wing, and narrower/higher rear wing.
I actually doubt the RB5 will share that much with the RB4. Its not just the slicks and different wings, but the major loss of aero appendages and fatter sidepods, as well as a new rear end to accomodate KERS.
Do we actually know RBR recieved the same engines as Renault this year? I dont think Renaults 2 wins dispels the theory of a lack of engine power. The Renault team themselves were saying early in the year they were down on power, and those 30hp rumours didnt come from nowhere.
#12
Posted 05 November 2008 - 10:23
Originally posted by LukeM
well considering how highly rated Vettel is right now, it will be the first real gauge for Webber as he has beaten all his team mates to date (yes he was faster than Heidfeld but overdrove often).
But age will be against him. The trend is to go for young drivers, and beating Vettel won't make him anymore interesting to the big boys.
#13
Posted 05 November 2008 - 10:33
Instead they could use next year to continue testing development of the KERS system off track and instead focus on the design for next years car on the other rule changes (aero/slicks/etc) - which may actually have more benefit to performance than the very restricted KERS regs.
Play to Newey's strengths for 09 and perfect KERS for 2010.
#14
Posted 05 November 2008 - 15:12
They actually have a driver line-up that will now suit them. Instead of one average driver (DC) and one mediocre driver (Webber) they've now got a clear number 1 team leader (Vettel) and a guy (Webber) who will probably do a reasonable back-up points-collecting job now that he is going to be forced to raise his game - if only to keep his seat for the future.
Webber is at the stage where he has as much experience as you are ever going to get in an F1 car and so he should be able to do a reasonable job in contributing to car development and that will further help Vettel on his way. Vettel himself lacks the experience needed to develop the car.
I still can't see any reason why Webber is suddenly going to become amazing in race conditions, because nothing he has done in his F1 race career to date has suggested to me that he is capable of doing so, but I think as long as he accepts his position within the team he may yet acheive his biggest points-haul to date in F1.
In defence of Webber, I highly doubt even Vettel will be in any sort of genuine race (other than maybe another random one-off) or title winning contention in 2009.
#15
Posted 07 November 2008 - 02:09
#16
Posted 07 November 2008 - 03:10
Originally posted by Imperial
Red Bull have a shot at being at least halfway decent in 2009.
They actually have a driver line-up that will now suit them. Instead of one average driver (DC) and one mediocre driver (Webber) they've now got a clear number 1 team leader (Vettel) and a guy (Webber) who will probably do a reasonable back-up points-collecting job now that he is going to be forced to raise his game - if only to keep his seat for the future.
Webber is at the stage where he has as much experience as you are ever going to get in an F1 car and so he should be able to do a reasonable job in contributing to car development and that will further help Vettel on his way. Vettel himself lacks the experience needed to develop the car.
I still can't see any reason why Webber is suddenly going to become amazing in race conditions, because nothing he has done in his F1 race career to date has suggested to me that he is capable of doing so, but I think as long as he accepts his position within the team he may yet acheive his biggest points-haul to date in F1.
In defence of Webber, I highly doubt even Vettel will be in any sort of genuine race (other than maybe another random one-off) or title winning contention in 2009.
Not sure what it is you have against Webber.
I thought this year he put the RB4 as high up the grid as it could get and generally drove smart, consistent, mistake free races. As always he had a couple of retirements from points-paying positions, Singapore was especially frustrating, that tend to ruin his season. I think Silverstone was his worse race and he was not alone in that.
#17
Posted 07 November 2008 - 11:46
I've heard a few people say it now, how it will be Webbers last year if he loses to Vettel, doesn't make sense to me...unless he quits!
#18
Posted 07 November 2008 - 12:03
With Webber and Vettel being different weight and size this might cause an issue for Red Bull.
There's no way it [Red Bull] will be able to run as forward a weight distribution on Mark Webber's car as it will Sebasitan Vettel's.
On aero-crucial circuits Webber will be consigned to a less than optimum weight and aero distribution, won't get as good a response from his front tyres, will wear his rears more and will carry more drag
Probably be a similar problem for the BMW boys as well.
#19
Posted 07 November 2008 - 12:31
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#20
Posted 07 November 2008 - 13:06
#21
Posted 07 November 2008 - 22:55
I'm going to bet against it and say that Vettel will outqualify Webber. In any case, it will be one of the most interesting qualifying battles.Originally posted by mark f1
[B]IMHO, Webber will come out on top in terms of qualifying and races in frontB]
#22
Posted 08 November 2008 - 05:09
#23
Posted 08 November 2008 - 06:45
Originally posted by Imperial
They actually have a driver line-up that will now suit them. Instead of one average driver (DC) and one mediocre driver (Webber) they've now got a clear number 1 team leader (Vettel)
Yes that's why Vettel was evenly matched with Sebastion 'I sometimes get beat by lowly drivers like Justin Wilson, AJ Almendinger, Paul Tracy and Will Power in a DP01' Bourdais before the arrival of the STR3 which was not to Bourdais' liking.
#24
Posted 08 November 2008 - 06:47
As to the Renault engine being the same as it was in the RBR, we don't not know that at all.
We do know for certain, that Renault did change parts and the changes were allowed in the engine (for "reliability reasons").
We also know because Renault have said so, that the major changes to performance with the engine were due to lubrication and fuel changes. And RBR do not use the same fuel and lubricants as do Renault. Despite strict controls on fuel, Ferrari still use different fuels for each GP. Its possible even lubricants now change. There is little doubt that reducing friction in an engine might be claimed to improve reliability. Couple such a change with a change in oil, and there is a significant potential for performance improvements.
It's not unrealistic to work out that the Renault engine improved more in the Renault than it did in the RBR.
Further to that, the electronic programming is not done by Renault for RBR, RBR do it themselves.
And finally, the Renault engine was less reliable than the one in the RBR - which also points to performance enhancements in the Renault. And academic note also would be that after the new Ferrari engine was supplied to STR, STR made a major jump in performance. That performance jump did not seem to be closed down by RBR, yet Renault did close it down.
My conclusion was that Renault got a lot more from their powerplant than did RBR.
#25
Posted 08 November 2008 - 08:25
#26
Posted 08 November 2008 - 08:38
#27
Posted 08 November 2008 - 10:55
They will be nowhere next year. Torro Rosso will out score them.
#28
Posted 08 November 2008 - 11:02
Originally posted by Clatter
But age will be against him. The trend is to go for young drivers, and beating Vettel won't make him anymore interesting to the big boys.
I always thought the age thing is overrated unless you are ancient. All that matters is results not a number on a birth certificate. Webber is tough both on the track and mentally, so vettel is going to be as good as the hype to beat him.
#29
Posted 08 November 2008 - 11:09
Originally posted by sejanus
(...)Fingers crossed newey pulls it out of the bag.
You can say that again.
#30
Posted 08 November 2008 - 13:46
Originally posted by armchair expert
Not sure what it is you have against Webber.
I thought this year he put the RB4 as high up the grid as it could get and generally drove smart, consistent, mistake free races. As always he had a couple of retirements from points-paying positions, Singapore was especially frustrating, that tend to ruin his season. I think Silverstone was his worse race and he was not alone in that.
I honestly don't have anything against any driver. I happen to think that Webber is a genuinely nice lad, apart from his predeliction to whinge about A.N.Other-Driver once a week.
The only basis with which I view and rate drivers is on their talents and abilities. Having observed Webber's progress prior to F1 and then observed him in F1 I simply don't rate him all that highly for various reasons. There is a thread about this somewhere though, so let's not hijack this one.
#31
Posted 08 November 2008 - 14:39
Originally posted by Melbourne Park
Its a shame they do not cap the CofG and the polar moment of inertias. I think that F1 will continue to move towards a midget or jockey sized driver competition. Unfortunately IMO.
That would be pretty draconian IMO. I think it would simply be alot easier to increase the minimum weight. If the cars were 650kg, the effect of driver weight and ballast could potentially half, assuming everyone now has around 50kg ballast to meet minimum weight.
#32
Posted 08 November 2008 - 21:03
Originally posted by Imperial
I honestly don't have anything against any driver. I happen to think that Webber is a genuinely nice lad, apart from his predeliction to whinge about A.N.Other-Driver once a week.
The only basis with which I view and rate drivers is on their talents and abilities. Having observed Webber's progress prior to F1 and then observed him in F1 I simply don't rate him all that highly for various reasons. There is a thread about this somewhere though, so let's not hijack this one.
Honestly, what do you expect when you come in here and say he is mediocre? Pull your bloody head in. FFS
#33
Posted 08 November 2008 - 22:42
#34
Posted 09 November 2008 - 00:17
Originally posted by rocketeer
I always thought the age thing is overrated unless you are ancient. All that matters is results not a number on a birth certificate. Webber is tough both on the track and mentally, so vettel is going to be as good as the hype to beat him.
I fear that the only results that would catapult MW onto the top teams radar is a string of wins, besting SV will be of very little interest to them.
#35
Posted 09 November 2008 - 00:49
One of Imperial's missions is to criticize Webber. He ignores car issues, and IMO after numerous proofs, he just refers back to Webber's lack of championship wins in the pre-F1 days. Sometimes though people such as him/her draw out a better analysis - every poster can add something, even the negative ones, and certainly Imperial is not offensive in fact he/she is polite.Originally posted by sejanus
Honestly, what do you expect when you come in here and say he is mediocre? Pull your bloody head in. FFS
#36
Posted 09 November 2008 - 01:50
At his salary, that is no wonder. I also think that Webber would not like a #2 role - if he accepted such a role, he'd be great at for instance McLaren. Imagine the benefits to Hamilton this year at McLaren, if Webber had of been on the pole, with light fuel. Then Webber could have held up the fast Ferraris for 8 or 10 laps, and then ducked in for fuel. If a SC had come, he'd have been setup for a win now and then too.Originally posted by Clatter
I fear that the only results that would catapult MW onto the top teams radar is a string of wins, besting SV will be of very little interest to them.
There is also the driver issues. I recall when Button was looking to join Williams and Webber, Button talked about how he'd have to get fitter, and that it would be intense. Then Williams took Honda's money, and Button stayed at Honda - my impression there was some relief from Button. Driver's need to have a team mate that does not threaten them IMO - otherwise a person like Alonso can loose his cool, which IMO was what happened at McLaren, when they refused to establish Alonso's status.
I recall when Ferrari were looking for their drivers, Michael Schumacher said the drivers he rated were Alonso (who was contracted anyway), Kimi, Massa and Webber. IMO Schumacher would know what makes a top driver. If Williams had had full support from BMW, we'd all know - but I think we never will find out, because Webber will never get a top drive as a fully supported driver. And RBR can never be a top drive IMO, they just don't have the resources, unless someone came on board with a serious intent, like VW/Audi, but they simply won't do that. If team budgets came in, then RBR could be a winner - but somehow I doubt Max will get his way, and in fact Max often says the correct things, but he mostly does the opposite, which makes me suspect his claims of limiting team spending are not for real.
#37
Posted 09 November 2008 - 02:32
#38
Posted 09 November 2008 - 04:02
But such beings need to be proven in the field of F1 battle! And also IMO, a true strategist likes to have a #2 driver as part of his strategy. Having two equal driver's makes any strategy call immensely more complex, such as early pits for possible SCs, or fuel queueing issues, to name two very obvious ones. Having two equal drivers - as IMO Webber and Vettel will be - and as Webber was treated when he arrived at RBR as it was DC who had put in lots of development work - is not an attractive environment for a top strategist IMO.Originally posted by repcobrabham
that's all true, MP, and it's history ... RBR's best chance IMHO is to poach top strategists.
I was quite optimistic about RBR last year for 2008 - and I was almost right. But I was very naive about the engine homologation. Next year my view may be pessimistic - I hope it is - but I just don't see how a non engine making team can make a top car against in an environment where change is absolutely immense. OK Newey is a genius - but I still think its a development formula, and hence lots of rule changes help the huge teams. Hopefully I am wrong - but even if I am, the odds don't favor RBR either/
#39
Posted 09 November 2008 - 10:12
Originally posted by sejanus
Honestly, what do you expect when you come in here and say he is mediocre?
I know, what do you expect when you post an opinion on a driver....on a bulletin board about racing?
Sheesh!
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#40
Posted 09 November 2008 - 10:19
Originally posted by Melbourne Park
One of Imperial's missions is to criticize Webber. He ignores car issues, and IMO after numerous proofs, he just refers back to Webber's lack of championship wins in the pre-F1 days. Sometimes though people such as him/her draw out a better analysis - every poster can add something, even the negative ones, and certainly Imperial is not offensive in fact he/she is polite.
It's not a mission. I hardly ever even discuss Webber to be honest, I've only ever commented on him maybe three or four times in my eight years on this board. It may just seem that way to a few people who have only read my recent comments.
And my comments can only be viewed as negative if read by a Webber fan. I genuinely don't highly rate Mark Webber the driver, so to me it's not being negative it's just saying what I see.
This is all going a bit off-topic now, but to quickly finish off:
I've watched him in many races pre-F1 and I didn't see any evidence that he would or should ever become a top-line F1 driver and in effect because of the teams that have been willing to sign him I've pretty much been vindicated. Certain teams haven't made any approaches to him and they are the team's winning titles.
I do think he's good enough to be pedalling around in a Red Bull, Force India etc but in my opinion he's not worth a truly top team giving a seat up to him. And that hasn't happened anyway has it?
It's clearly not just li'l ole me that thinks like this, it's also li'l ole Ron Dennis and li'l ole Luca Montezemolo.
#41
Posted 09 November 2008 - 10:32
#42
Posted 09 November 2008 - 11:37
Originally posted by Imperial
It's not a mission. I hardly ever even discuss Webber to be honest, I've only ever commented on him maybe three or four times in my eight years on this board.
Yeah right... more like 50 times is the truth. I only read your first ever comment on him and it says it all. Please leave this thread and create one of your own if you wanna bash Mark. Thanks. Bye.
#43
Posted 09 November 2008 - 13:33
#44
Posted 09 November 2008 - 14:08
Originally posted by Imperial
It's not a mission. I hardly ever even discuss Webber to be honest, I've only ever commented on him maybe three or four times in my eight years on this board. It may just seem that way to a few people who have only read my recent comments.
And my comments can only be viewed as negative if read by a Webber fan. I genuinely don't highly rate Mark Webber the driver, so to me it's not being negative it's just saying what I see.
This is all going a bit off-topic now, but to quickly finish off:
I've watched him in many races pre-F1 and I didn't see any evidence that he would or should ever become a top-line F1 driver and in effect because of the teams that have been willing to sign him I've pretty much been vindicated. Certain teams haven't made any approaches to him and they are the team's winning titles.
I do think he's good enough to be pedalling around in a Red Bull, Force India etc but in my opinion he's not worth a truly top team giving a seat up to him. And that hasn't happened anyway has it?
It's clearly not just li'l ole me that thinks like this, it's also li'l ole Ron Dennis and li'l ole Luca Montezemolo.
That's just more of your opinion.
The pity of Webber is that without a top car - which the Williams with two times the budget would have been as it was when Webber signed - denied him the chance of showing his ability. But it is still known - as people like Michael Schumacher was testimony to, when Ferrari were considering their options, and Schumacher listed Webber amongst two others - Massa and Kimi. Webber's pay also indicates his high regard - you don't pay 8 to 10 million a year to someone who is not top notch. Look at the other pay rates - there are people like Kova who gets a lot less, yet he gets more points. The facts are that without a top car, top drivers look poor. Curiously Webber continues to put his car high on the grid, and extracts enormous amounts from it. Button shows that a good driver looks very poor, when in a slow car. As did Alonso for the first half of this year, when he was error prone for much of his races. Had Webber been in the Renault for the first half of the year, he'd have outperformed Alonso - and Alonso has talked about his poor driving. Top drivers need good cars to demonstrate their ability.
#45
Posted 09 November 2008 - 16:52
Originally posted by Melbourne Park
The pity of Webber is that without a top car - which the Williams with two times the budget would have been as it was when Webber signed - denied him the chance of showing his ability.
They needed more than money in '05-06, they needed better aero staff and a healthier relationship with BMW IMO. The previous years they had a powerful BMW engine to offset high drag numbers, but '05 the engine wasnt that great anymore with little to no development, the impending V8 switch and BMW looking at other options like Sauber.
#46
Posted 09 November 2008 - 18:41
Originally posted by Hippo
Yeah right... more like 50 times is the truth. I only read your first ever comment on him and it says it all. Please leave this thread and create one of your own if you wanna bash Mark. Thanks. Bye.
Originally posted by Melbourne Park
That's just more of your bullshit. I checked before I posted - you ignore certain evidence, and deny what you do. Typically you say things like "that was discussed on another thread, but I am not going to post here. But that is not real evidence.". Eventually the real evidence comes, but then you simply deny it. You have an agenda - at least admit to it.
Guys, I had responded to both of the above comments but have deleted them in the hope of not getting embroiled in a pointless tit-for-tat yes-he-is/-no-he-isn't effort, so how's about we just leave it alone now eh?
Clearly we don't agree on Webber and never the twain shall meet.
#47
Posted 09 November 2008 - 21:47
Originally posted by Imperial
Guys, I had responded to both of the above comments but have deleted them in the hope of not getting embroiled in a pointless tit-for-tat yes-he-is/-no-he-isn't effort, so how's about we just leave it alone now eh?
Clearly we don't agree on Webber and never the twain shall meet.
Okay so most of us here are Webber fans/supporters and Imperial isn't. But that's okay, we can all be adults about this, agree to disagree and continue with the discussion on how good/bad Red Bull are going to be in 2009.
The 2008 thread was generally troll & fan-boy free so let's hope we keep it the same for 2009.
#48
Posted 09 November 2008 - 22:09
Originally posted by Imperial
Guys, I had responded to both of the above comments but have deleted them in the hope of not getting embroiled in a pointless tit-for-tat yes-he-is/-no-he-isn't effort, so how's about we just leave it alone now eh?
Clearly we don't agree on Webber and never the twain shall meet.
Fair enough - I deleted my rude comments.
And I apologize to you and to everyone here, for making them and lowering the tone of the thread.
I don't know what you said, but since I swore (I don't do that very often here either), then no doubt if you criticized me, it was fair enough to do so.
#49
Posted 09 November 2008 - 22:20
Group Hug
#50
Posted 10 November 2008 - 02:50
Originally posted by armchair expert
Okay everybody............
Group Hug
Screw that! Bring back the biff.