466 replies to this topic

[McGuire]

I can't answer any of those questions with useful certainty. What I knew I have forgotten by now. You might try looking up the web forums etc. for the people who do all the Fiero swaps and conversions. They should know these components inside and out, what fits what etc.

[cheapracer]

Anyway,

... making the very first car now for the USA with a nice supply deal for Honda K20/24 engines so should be about 220+ hp pushing 600 kgs. Thats well enough for anyone on the street.

Get some pictures up next week.

[phantom II]

Is that engine available in the states? What year? What model car? Does that include the Xaxle? After about 5 or 6 years, all the parts become aftermarket and poor quality. Choose the power train carefully. Lotus saved themselves a lot of money using a Toyota engine and tranny that is used in a Toyota that has been certified over and has gone thru emissions.
My cars used new crate motors and trannies. Everything else was non OEM. This makes it easy for the owner to get parts.
Also, some Sates require smog stuff and OBD 2 or 3 depending on the year of the engine.
If it is a replica, you can go by the year of the original car including smog requirements even if you have a brand new engine. If the brand new engine is a replica, like Ford 351s, and Chevy small blocks, V8 or V6, it doesn't have to meet smog.
That 3.8 V6 engine is used in a lot of kit cars, one is the Stalker. http://www.angelfire...biz6/stalkerv6/
You have to beat this car in order to sell yours. No ****. Price also. Your dealer must race his cars and they must do well. Make sure it is right before you ship it. I would use this 3.8 engine because it can be carburetored, injected, blown, turboed and it is cheap and doesn't break. One of the best engines in the world. It may be made in China also with a 5 speed Xaxle. This engine can be registerd as a 61 engine. The car can be registered as a 61 or 67 Buick.
13 states have 'specialty car' titles available. Contact SEMA or become a member.

Check with a kit car magazine or something. Send pictures to magazines. Big magazines first with 3 month leads. They won't publish second.

Is there a market in China for such a car? Will it be a rolling chassis? Bringing it in parts is cheaper at customs. That could be just leaving the suspension off. I think Chinese products are no longer exempt from duty now.
Will you market the car thru an agent or will you ship directly to the customer?

If you ship in volumes, and it is a vehicle, you will have to get an Agent of Service of Process and register with DOT who issues you a VIN number. You have to be a registered motor manufacturer in China and with them also.
This is basically an avenue for dissatisfied customers to have someone to sue in case of problems or accidents and injuries caused by your product.
You could advertise for such an agent. Ask existing company's to carry your car. Those who advertise in kit car mags. are the best to start with.
Some States require that agent also be registered as a motor manufacture.
In Florida, a good state for your car for sales, he will have to have a license to manufacture, a license to sell and a license to distribute, each at a different address. ****ing Democrat communists. What a menace they are?
Georgia and North Carolina are the most friendly states for your activity. A manufacture license covers all three. If your dealer sells a turn key car, he has to have liability insurance. Some states require all new parts on the rolling chassis. Florida is one.

If you sell >500 turn key cars per year shipped from China, they must meet DOT section 49 dictates. IE: crash tests, airbags, side impact, etc. Some exemptions are negotiated. Dealers can exceed 500 units collectively without complying with DOT sec. 49.

The paperwork always shows the owner as the manufacturer unless it is a large company. Who ever makes it go, is liable. That is why kit cars are sold without engine and gearbox, including Nobles which are called Rosebuds or something now.
Good ****ing luck, buddy. See you soon.

cheapracer, on Jul 7 2009, 12:41, said:

Anyway,

... making the very first car now for the USA with a nice supply deal for Honda K20/24 engines so should be about 220+ hp pushing 600 kgs. Thats well enough for anyone on the street.

Get some pictures up next week.

[gruntguru]

Bill Sherwood, on Dec 9 2008, 10:19, said:

I'm not joking about the cans either.;)

On another forum there was some debate about how to make a very lightweight car crashworthy and I put a bit of thought into how to add a few inches of crushable structure cheaply to a car.
What I came up with was a bit odd, but I think it'd work - You know conventional plastic bubble packing material, used to wrap packages?


Make a similar type of structure, but from recycled aluminium cans (gotta be recycled, good for the environment, etc) and make them so when you glue them together face-to-face the square cells/bubbles overlap to form an interlocking system. Then glue that lot to the back of another lot, etc.
With the layers closest to the inside of the car, make the air pressure (I'd use nitrogen, it'll help stop fires) inside the bubbles the highest to make them more rigid and the layers closest to the outside of the car have the least pressure.
That'd provide a reasonable crushable structure for naff-all money I think.

Could you get something like that made in China?

You would need to wear hearing protection just in case you had a front on.

[gruntguru]

phantom II, on Jul 8 2009, 08:50, said:

Is that engine available in the states? What year? What model car? Does that include the Xaxle? After about 5 or 6 years, all the parts become aftermarket and poor quality. Choose the power train carefully. Lotus saved themselves a lot of money using a Toyota engine and tranny that is used in a Toyota that has been certified over and has gone thru emissions.

To my mind the obvious choice is Duratec.
Very common now in Focus and Mazda 3.
Cheap.
Light.
Lots of goodies ex US and UK where they are now probably the favorite engine for kit cars. (Up to 300 hp NA)
One of the best manual transaxles around.
Lots of time before obsolescence starts to kick in.

[Bill S]

cheapracer, on Jul 8 2009, 01:41, said:

Anyway,

... making the very first car now for the USA with a nice supply deal for Honda K20/24 engines so should be about 220+ hp pushing 600 kgs. Thats well enough for anyone on the street.

Get some pictures up next week.

My Fraser has about that power and weight, and I can also highly recommend that power-to-weight ratio.
IT'S FUUUUN!



Gotta be careful in the lower gears though.

Edited by Pascal, 06 January 2011 - 10:18.

[gruntguru]

Bill S, on Jul 8 2009, 12:28, said:

Gotta be careful in the lower gears though.

Cheapy's rocket should have slightly less trouble being mid-engined.

[cheapracer]

P11, the Honda is year 2000 > Civic and Accord oh and Oddessy engine and they are being supplied in the States, the rollers will arrived wheelless for engine/trans fitting and get running in West Virginia.

Nice picture Bill.

GG, the engine deal is done.

[Powersteer]

Push-rod suspension!! I still could not get around the ultra long primary 4-2-1 exhaust system, are they suppose to work similar to a 4-1? It seems to be the choice nowdays.

[gruntguru]

Powersteer, on Jul 8 2009, 15:31, said:

Push-rod suspension!! I still could not get around the ultra long primary 4-2-1 exhaust system, are they suppose to work similar to a 4-1? It seems to be the choice nowdays.

4-2-1 can generally be designed to produce a broader, less lumpy torque curve but slightly less peak power than 4-1. This is a rule of thumb only and there are exceptions to every rule.

[cheapracer]

Powersteer, on Jul 8 2009, 13:31, said:

Push-rod suspension!!

Yes taking every advantage for a supreme aerodynamic shape, notice the bullet headlamps - that was no accident!

Note the other aero touches such as reduced stem steering arms, massive reduction in roll bar padding, side repeater lamps turned at 90 degrees, tyre grooves shaped to push air aside, yellow stripe for improved laminar flow and the massive sucker fan in the nose to draw the car along.

Edited by cheapracer, 09 July 2009 - 01:48.

[imaginesix]

cheapracer, on Jul 8 2009, 21:46, said:

Yes taking every advantage for a supreme aerodynamic shape, notice the bullet headlamps - that was no accident!

Note the other aero touches such as reduced stem steering arms, massive reduction in roll bar padding, side repeater lamps turned at 90 degrees, tyre grooves shaped to push air aside, yellow stripe for improved laminar flow and the massive sucker fan in the nose to draw the car along.

Exactly. They've compromised the purity of the concept by going pushrod. What next, a diffuser?

[robroy]

cheapracer, on Jul 9 2009, 02:46, said:

Yes taking every advantage for a supreme aerodynamic shape, notice the bullet headlamps - that was no accident!

Note the other aero touches such as reduced stem steering arms, massive reduction in roll bar padding, side repeater lamps turned at 90 degrees, tyre grooves shaped to push air aside, yellow stripe for improved laminar flow and the massive sucker fan in the nose to draw the car along.

Just missing the aerodynamic wishbones and steering arms

[cheapracer]

robroy, on Jul 9 2009, 20:55, said:

Just missing the aerodynamic wishbones and steering arms

Now you want the serious post?

Believe it or not, Ariel offers aero A'arms for the Atom (see post 93)

Oh and they are only $5000 per set

[robroy]

cheapracer, on Jul 9 2009, 18:47, said:

Now you want the serious post?

Believe it or not, Ariel offers aero A'arms for the Atom (see post 93)

Oh and they are only $5000 per set

Can't find any pics of them unfortunately. Have you seen the IFR Aspid?

They have some pretty nice looking wishbones (with a diagonal reinforcement running through the cross section) on their open wheel model. Look real cool but unnecessary. Might be cooler and more functional if they made some aerodynamic pods for the wheels I think, and then maybe a downforce inducing profile for the wishbones!
Check out the twin disc brakes and other clever bits.
Out of interest is 21kg unsprung weight per corner that much lighter than other 7 type cars?

http://www.wheels24....upercar_upstart

[Greg Locock]

re the aero arms thing, even in Oz the tooling for a custom aluminium extrusion was only a couple of thousand bucks, so there's no real excuse not to indulge in aerodnamic fantasies. Dimensional control was good as well.

[cheapracer]

Greg Locock, on Jul 10 2009, 07:21, said:

re the aero arms thing, even in Oz the tooling for a custom aluminium extrusion was only a couple of thousand bucks, so there's no real excuse not to indulge in aerodnamic fantasies. Dimensional control was good as well.

These are my good Mates if you need extrusions or the dies........

http://www.wingsal.c...nglish/scsb.asp

[cheapracer]

robroy, on Jul 10 2009, 05:30, said:

Out of interest is 21kg unsprung weight per corner that much lighter than other 7 type cars?

I doubt mine are that heavy but it must have fantastic handling because "it's got double wishbones" according to the Author

By the way, I thought .za was South Africa?

Edited by cheapracer, 10 July 2009 - 01:44.

[Powersteer]

gruntguru, on Jul 8 2009, 14:47, said:

4-2-1 can generally be designed to produce a broader, less lumpy torque curve but slightly less peak power than 4-1. This is a rule of thumb only and there are exceptions to every rule.

Yes but recently, especially on bikes, the primaries are execeptionally long while the secondaries very short as to compare with before when the primaries were mere 15inchs while the secondaries could go 2' or more. Does these type behave closer to a 4-1 system or a more conservative version of a normal 4-2-1? I suspect it is the former.

[gruntguru]

Powersteer, on Jul 10 2009, 18:27, said:

Yes but recently, especially on bikes, the primaries are execeptionally long while the secondaries very short as to compare with before when the primaries were mere 15inchs while the secondaries could go 2' or more. Does these type behave closer to a 4-1 system or a more conservative version of a normal 4-2-1? I suspect it is the former.

Not sure, but I will check some simulation data from a 4-2-1 design I helped to optimise recently. Will have to wait till I get to work Monday.

[GreenMachine]

Interesting.

The primaries on my Mazda BP engine must be a metre or more (4-1 system), fwiw. That's on a race engine with a pretty flat torque curve.

[brakedisc]

I am very interested in your project. Many years ago I went through the same process and produced for my seventh design a mid engined minimalistic sports car. It did all that was asked of it on road and track but the project floundered because of the legal implications of selling such a product. I found out the hard way that the car was unlikely ever to go into serious production because I could not get proper product liability insurance. Those insurance companies that did offer me cover wanted over £650 per car/kit sold for little in the way of return if someone was to be injured as a result of my design, its build or its use. I was told that most of the car makers of the world are dead in the water if they were to settle their litigation claims.

[gruntguru]

Hi Cheapy
Have you built a working prototype? Something that's complete and actually drives, so you can work through the bugs, finalise suspension geometry and find out if the front tyres do really throw rocks at the driver through the gaps?

Edited by gruntguru, 11 July 2009 - 06:06.

[Powersteer]

Long primary.
The common one.

The standard one offers two point power band while the longer primary put two powerbands closer together?

[gruntguru]

Powersteer, on Jul 10 2009, 18:27, said:

Yes but recently, especially on bikes, the primaries are execeptionally long while the secondaries very short as to compare with before when the primaries were mere 15inchs while the secondaries could go 2' or more. Does these type behave closer to a 4-1 system or a more conservative version of a normal 4-2-1? I suspect it is the former.

Here is some simulation data for a 4-2-1 system. The graphs both show torque v's RPM. The first graph shows the effect of varying primary runner length only. Secondary lenth was constant at 440mm. The second graph shows the effect of varying secondary length with primary length constant at 600mm.

The interesting thing is that most combinations produce quite dramatic resonances and "holes" at lower RPM. This might be the primary and secondary runner resonances adding at certain frequencies, indicating that it is quite important to get the right balance between primary and secondary lengths, otherwise you can end up with somthing that is worse than the simple 4-1. This seems particularly true with long primaries, which can give very useful gains at lower RPM but also significant holes if you don't get the secondary length right.

Note the 10mm secondary case, which indicates what a 4-1 with the same primaries (600mm) would do.

Edited by gruntguru, 13 July 2009 - 23:12.

[desmo]

It isn't always going to be obvious which trace is the "best" looking at a graph like that either is it?

[gruntguru]

desmo, on Jul 14 2009, 06:14, said:

It isn't always going to be obvious which trace is the "best" looking at a graph like that either is it?

No its cerainly not. It always comes down to a subjective judgement and is further complicated by the need to consider the application. In the case shown above, smooth torque delivery over a wide rev range was a priority and a 600mm primary with 400mm secondary was chosen (brown curve in the lower graph).

(Significant additional gains in bottom-end torque were found with some valve timing changes but that is another story.)

Edited by gruntguru, 13 July 2009 - 23:26.

[Bill S]

Which software are you using for those calculations, GG

[Canuck]

Looks a lot like the graph Perf Trend's software spits out on the latter one. The upper I don't recognize at all. 'Course, they could both be from Excel.

[gruntguru]

Bill S, on Jul 14 2009, 13:15, said:

Which software are you using for those calculations, GG?

AVL Boost.

Canuck.
Both graphs created in Excel.

[RDV]

Quote

gruntguru-smooth torque delivery over a wide rev range was a priority and a 600mm primary with 400mm secondary was chosen (brown curve in the lower graph).

Why does this remind me of the Torque vs. HP saga?

[cheapracer]

RDV, on Jul 18 2009, 03:59, said:

Why does this remind me of the Torque vs. HP saga?

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!

[gruntguru]

RDV, on Jul 18 2009, 05:59, said:

"smooth torque delivery over a wide rev range was a priority and a 600mm primary with 400mm secondary was chosen (brown curve in the lower graph)"

Why does this remind me of the Torque vs. HP saga?

Don't forget I was arguing the power case too.

[cheapracer]

Slowly getting along....

[Jezztor]

Cheapy, I only cottoned on to this project now following my 7 year hiatus, so forgive me if you've answered/discussed this (I did browse through), but as far as the moulds go, how did you put those together? Built prototype panels and created the female moulds off them?

Looks fantastic by the way. Am also not a fan of lower balljoints in tension!!

[cheapracer]

Jezztor, on Sep 10 2009, 01:13, said:

Cheapy, I only cottoned on to this project now following my 7 year hiatus, so forgive me if you've answered/discussed this (I did browse through), but as far as the moulds go, how did you put those together? Built prototype panels and created the female moulds off them?

Looks fantastic by the way. Am also not a fan of lower balljoints in tension!!

Yep build bucks by hand take moulds and then sadly destroy the bucks.

Thats not the final setup, just convenient.

[Defiant00]

Cheapy, can you please check your email and get back to me. It's been almost two months since I've last heard from you.

The project's looking good by the way, glad to see that it's coming along well.

Aaron

Edited by Defiant00, 10 September 2009 - 04:41.

[Bill S]

cheapracer, on Sep 9 2009, 21:46, said:

Slowly getting along....

Very nice!
And simultaneously annoying to see all that wasted space behind the car and it's also much cleaner than my garage.

[imaginesix]

What wasted space? That's his test track. It's indoors to prevent those pesky American spy satellites from uncovering the latest technological advances in cheapracers. The car in the picture is provided as disinformation.

Edited by imaginesix, 11 September 2009 - 03:25.

[gruntguru]

Hi Cheapy. I was looking at the side trusses and thinking about the small diameter tubes attached to the large diameter curved rails (which are no doubt fairly thin-walled).
- Have these joints been analysed with FEA (or other)
- Is there any reinforcing of the thinwall (large dia) tubes at these joints. Without reinforcing, these joints will be much weaker than the tubes.

Edited by gruntguru, 12 September 2009 - 03:39.

[cheapracer]

imaginesix, on Sep 11 2009, 11:23, said:

What wasted space? That's his test track. It's indoors to prevent those pesky American spy satellites from uncovering the latest technological advances in cheapracers. The car in the picture is provided as disinformation.

Darn the secrets out!

gruntguru, on Sep 11 2009, 13:06, said:

Hi Cheapy. I was looking at the side trusses and thinking about the small diameter tubes attached to the large diameter curved rails (which are no doubt fairly thin-walled).
- Have these joints been analysed with FEA (or other)
- Is there any reinforcing of the thinwall (large dia) tubes at these joints. Without reinforcing these joints will be much weaker than the tubes.

2 of 75mm tubes running the length of the (short) car feeding into 3 substantial bulkheads not to mention the substantial triangulation at the nose intersected occasionally by 32mm tubes ain't going nowhere in a hurry Buddy. I don't need FEA to tell me that but when the FEA is done I'll let you know.

I have no problem to mention that the 4 x 75mm/3" spar tube's overkill sizing was selected based on looks first.

Edited by cheapracer, 11 September 2009 - 14:32.

[Jezztor]

cheapracer, on Sep 10 2009, 03:35, said:

Yep build bucks by hand take moulds and then sadly destroy the bucks.

Thats not the final setup, just convenient.

Nice. I'm currently working with 3D scanners in the automotive/motorsport industry, this is something that would no doubt be very useful and cost-effective for pre-vis/design and production.

Example, the Rivage (I'm using the same system)
http://www.capture3d...ge-download.pdf

[Bill S]

FWIW a new shop that's just opened down the road from me has these for sale.

http://www.race-car-...rproadster.html

[cheapracer]

Bill S, on Sep 21 2009, 21:01, said:

FWIW a new shop that's just opened down the road from me has these for sale.

http://www.race-car-...rproadster.html

Yeah I know of the SLR.

It has some level of ADR approval apparently, how with no feet protection from the elements or a minor crash putting wishbones through your legs is beyond me.

[Bill S]

cheapracer, on Sep 22 2009, 01:09, said:

It has some level of ADR approval apparently, how with no feet protection from the elements or a minor crash putting wishbones through your legs is beyond me.

Oh didn't you know? The kit also comes with carbon fibre steel boots.

[Villes Gilleneuve]

This reminds me of the T-Rex from Quebec:



It's classified as a motorcycle, but even at that, in Canada, it can only be licensed in Quebec.

It has a kwaka engine and a huge power/weight ratio.

Scared the poo out of Tiff Needell:



I drove one at Tremblant, it is seriously fast and more fun than any exotic car.

[Tony Matthews]

Villes Gilleneuve, on Sep 22 2009, 16:14, said:

Scared the poo out of Tiff Needell:

Seemed to be enjoying it more than anything else...

[zac510]

I swear I've seen one of those 3-wheel things in England.. France technically, but it was registered in England!

[Bill S]

You're selling Chinese knock-off's of your Chinese Atom recreation in NZ now? lol



http://www.trademe.c...n-245412920.htm

Edited by Pascal, 06 January 2011 - 10:15.

[Canuck]

Villes Gilleneuve, on Sep 22 2009, 09:14, said:

It's classified as a motorcycle, but even at that, in Canada, it can only be licensed in Quebec.

There's one registered here in Calgary, owned by an acquaintance of mine.