2089 replies to this topic

[LuckyStrike1]

Well why wait when you can post? It's less than three months until the season starts again and Jimmie Johnson has almost not had time to receive his well-deserved and impressive third consecutive title until we look ahead.

The schedule for 2009 as it has been released:

2009 NASCAR SPRINT CUP SERIES SCHEDULE
Date Site
Feb. 7 Budweiser Shootout at Daytona, Daytona International Speedway*
Feb. 15 Daytona International Speedway
Feb. 22 Auto Club Speedway
March 1 Las Vegas Motor Speedway
March 8 Atlanta Motor Speedway
March 22 Bristol Motor Speedway
March 29 Martinsville Speedway
April 5 Texas Motor Speedway
April 18 Phoenix International Raceway
April 26 Talladega Superspeedway
May 2 Richmond International Raceway
May 9 Darlington Raceway
May 16 NASCAR Sprint All-Star Race, Lowe’s Motor Speedway*
May 24 Lowe’s Motor Speedway
May 31 Dover International Speedway
June 7 Pocono Raceway
June 14 Michigan International Speedway
June 21 Infineon Raceway
June 28 New Hampshire Motor Speedway
July 4 Daytona International Speedway
July 11 Chicagoland Speedway
July 26 Indianapolis Motor Speedway
Aug. 2 Pocono Raceway
Aug. 9 Watkins Glen International
Aug. 16 Michigan International Speedway
Aug. 22 Bristol Motor Speedway
Sept. 6 Atlanta Motor Speedway
Sept. 12 Richmond International Raceway
Sept. 20 New Hampshire Motor Speedway
Sept. 27 Dover International Speedway
Oct. 4 Kansas Speedway
Oct. 11 Auto Club Speedway
Oct. 17 Lowe’s Motor Speedway
Oct. 25 Martinsville Speedway
Nov. 1 Talladega Superspeedway
Nov. 8 Texas Motor Speedway
Nov. 15 Phoenix International Raceway
Nov. 22 Homestead-Miami Speedway
* – Denotes non-points event.

Some of many talking points for next season:

- Ganassi-DEI merger. Will it be Chevys (if not confirmed yet) and what will this means for these two struggling organizations and our belowed (and in some quarters less belowed) Montoya. I'm positive when considering the alternative.

- Auto industry insolvency. Is NASCAR less dependant on manufacturers support than F1 is and how could the huge problems Ford and GM are facing impact NASCAR?

- What will Dodge do next year? Ganassi set to leave them, the auto makers future is uncertain and this was not one of Dodge's best seasons.

- Will GoodYear get it right in 2009 at every track?

- How will Tony Stewart do as a driving team owner, first season since the last 10 years he isn't with Joe Gibbs Racing.

- Is Carl Edwards the huge pre-favourite for 2009? Or will Kyle Busch manage to do what he did this season pre-chase into the chase? Can anyone stop Jimmie Johnson or is this the year when Jeff Gordon will take the fifth, his fifth?

- Mark Martin returns to full-time racing again, now with Hendricks. Who will be top dog at Hendricks, possible with the strongets line-up in 2009.

- Will the testing ban have any effect?

- Can Montoya continue the strong pace he run with in the last couple of races through the major part of next season?

And much much more.

Many thanks to red stick for many of the insightful topics.

[red stick]

I can't help but admire the keen insight of your chosen topics for discussion.

[LuckyStrike1]

Originally posted by red stick
I can't help but admire the keen insight of your chosen topics for discussion.

[DLaw]

It will also be fun to follow Scott Speed's progress.

Did a decent job yesterday.

[OfficeLinebacker]

Originally posted by LuckyStrike1

Some of many talking points for next season:

1 - Ganassi-DEI merger. Will it be Chevys (if not confirmed yet) and what will this means for these two struggling organizations and our belowed (and in some quarters less belowed) Montoya. I'm positive when considering the alternative.

2 - Auto industry insolvency. Is NASCAR less dependant on manufacturers support than F1 is and how could the huge problems Ford and GM are facing impact NASCAR?

3 - What will Dodge do next year? Ganassi set to leave them, the auto makers future is uncertain and this was not one of Dodge's best seasons.

4 - Will GoodYear get it right in 2009 at every track?

5 - How will Tony Stewart do as a driving team owner, first season since the last 10 years he isn't with Joe Gibbs Racing.

6 - Is Carl Edwards the huge pre-favourite for 2009? Or will Kyle Busch manage to do what he did this season pre-chase into the chase? Can anyone stop Jimmie Johnson or is this the year when Jeff Gordon will take the fifth, his fifth?

7 - Mark Martin returns to full-time racing again, now with Hendricks. Who will be top dog at Hendricks, possible with the strongets line-up in 2009.

8 - Will the testing ban have any effect?

9 - Can Montoya continue the strong pace he run with in the last couple of races through the major part of next season?

And much much more.

Many thanks to red stick for many of the insightful topics.

Originally posted by DLaw
10 It will also be fun to follow Scott Speed's progress.

Did a decent job yesterday.

1. Proof will be in the pudding. I hope they're already working hard on it!

2. I think NASCAR is far less tied to manus. Manus have pulled out before and NASCAR is still here!

3. Isn't Penske the last Dodge team now?

4. Depends on your definition of "right." To me it means no blowouts--who cares if the cars are slippery? I hope so. I'd rather have whiny drivers than unpredictable blowouts.

5. I think if he or anyone at SHR posts a top-5 next season, it will be BIG news and I'll cheer them every step of the way. I love Smoke.

6. I count Cousin Carl as the favorite, but it's anybody's game.

7. Top Dog == JJ, no question! Pecking order should be JJ->Jeffie->Mark->Dale.

8. Absolutely. Experience will be at a premium, and I do believe it will bring more parity.

9. I don't know if I'll be able to take it if NEITHER of my two favorite drivers (Monty and T-Stew) are in top-10 equipment. So I damn well hope so!

10. That, too. To me the big question is whether they'll be able to bring the 84 team up to the standard of the 83 car's performance.

11. I'm also very interested in AJ Allmendinger's progress, as well.

[red stick]

1. Assuming it's Chevys (can't imagine anyone sticking with Chrysler at this point--does anyone believe there will be a Dodge in 2010?), you'd think JPM would benefit from better equipment. The COT should even out what used to be advantages among manufacturers, but DEI has traditionally had some solid engines, and stunning success in plate racing. That said, this is not a merger of giants; Ganassi has had limited success since Sterling Marlin left, and Teresa Earnhardt has proven how quickly one can manage the mighty into a fall.

2. You've got to read the financial pages these days. Ford is in bad shape, GM is nearly bankrupt, and Chrysler's only useful assets are Jeep and minivans. No one wants the cars. And I don't think Penske is going to slap a Jeep badge on his cars and keep racing. There's going to be a lot of teams chasing a lot less money in NASCAR this winter, and I wouldn't be surprised if a few more teams folded. With the COT, NASCAR is less dependent on manufacturers--they could name the cars after constellations for all they currently have in common with street metal, but don't you think the engineering resources the manufacturers provide will be missed? Especially when Toyota is paying their racing development people while the US companies struggle for solvency? Remember those all or nearly all GM fields from the early 80's? Now imagine 43 Camrys.

3. See 2.

4. I'm with OLB; better sliding around than . . . "rapid deflation." I assume tire testing is outside of the test ban, with appropriate rules, of course.

5. It's going to be a long year for Stewart. All the Chase drivers this year came from four teams. I don't expect next year to be any different. If you thought TS was moody this year, just wait for the explosion when he's asked about his umpteenth Top 25 finish.

6. Edwards as the favorite? Johnson's won three in a row. I view him like the New England Patriots--until somebody demonstrates that he (or she) can beat him, he's the man.

7. I'd love to see Mark Martin win a Cup.

8. The test ban will save teams some money. Parity, not so much. The strong teams, using their existing set-ups and legions of engineers, will figure out a way to speed up their cars. The lesser teams will still be the lesser teams, just with different things to do mid-week.

9. I love JPM, but he's on one of the lesser teams.

10. So's Scott Speed.

[paulogman]

tires at indy and atlanta need to be sorted some how. hopefully they will be all allowed to test there or something to find a solution...

[rghojai]

My understanding is that the testing "ban" applies to tracks where they compete... which means they are free to go to other tracks. (One person's opinion: ban it everywhere.) Someone said half-jokingly that Hendrick, RCR, DEI/Ganassi could get together, buy relatively cheap rural land, build a bare-bones 1.5 mile test track.

[dbltop]

Dodge has been a little behind in the engine department lately, but they are supposed to introduce a more powerful unit in 09 I believe. Penske and Petty teams might be the dark horses next year. Goodyear has had some problems this year and I have no idea how they can fix them if they are not allowed to test. What happened at Indy this year can't be repeated. Maybe NASCAR will provide chassis' independantly?

[Dmitriy_Guller]

I really don't see the problem with hockey puck tires. So the cars are tougher to drive, boo-hoo. It's not like the racing is worse with them.

I am also pretty sure that in formulas with fixed downforce, such as NASCAR, lower tire grip would paradoxically result in less dirty aero problems. The reason is that the importance of aero grows exponentially with corner speed, and worse tires cut that down. The result is actually the reduction in the ratio of aero to mechanical grip.

[LuckyStrike1]

Originally posted by Dmitriy_Guller
I really don't see the problem with hockey puck tires. So the cars are tougher to drive, boo-hoo. It's not like the racing is worse with them.

I am also pretty sure that in formulas with fixed downforce, such as NASCAR, lower tire grip would paradoxically result in less dirty aero problems. The reason is that the importance of aero grows exponentially with corner speed, and worse tires cut that down. The result is actually the reduction in the ratio of aero to mechanical grip.

Well, I'm not sure the racing isn't worse with them. The famous race where Tony Stewart and Jr slammed Good Year pretty hard (and rightly so) the racing was apalling with cars sliding around not doing much for the whole race.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Originally posted by LuckyStrike1


Well, I'm not sure the racing isn't worse with them. The famous race where Tony Stewart and Jr slammed Good Year pretty hard (and rightly so) the racing was apalling with cars sliding around not doing much for the whole race.

You'll always have bad races. I'm just not convinced that bad tires create more of them.

[rookie]

I enjoyed this year, I didn't follow it so close for a few years, but caught most of the races this year and really enjoyed it.

Predictions -

It will be 4 in a row for Jimmy and Chad in 09, Jeff Gordon to have a much better year, Edwards turn to have a tough year and Ambrose and Montoya to dominate the road courses......and Junior to win Daytona 500.

[red stick]

Originally posted by Dmitriy_Guller

You'll always have bad races. I'm just not convinced that bad tires create more of them.

That may be true, but nobody wants to see another 2008 Brickyard 400. There's bad tires, bad races, and then there's forced "competition yellows" because you can't get 25 miles out of a set of tires.

[red stick]

The economy and NASCAR. From the Indianapolis Star:



Sagging economy means cutbacks for NASCAR
Sponsors become harder to find and some races may not have full 43-car fields next year
By Steve Ballard
steve.ballard@indystar.com

With its close ties to the struggling automobile industry and heavy reliance upon corporate sponsorships, NASCAR perhaps more than any other major sports organization is feeling the crunch of a sagging U.S. economy.

Other than Toyota, the manufacturers that provide money and technical support to NASCAR teams are fighting to avoid bankruptcy. General Motors recently announced a quarterly loss of $2.5 billion, and Ford and Dodge are in equally dire straits as they lobby the federal government for assistance.

Jobs are being lost in alarming numbers as teams tighten their belts and, in some cases, merge to stay afloat. Sponsors either are leaving the sport or shifting their support to top-tier teams, further widening the gap between the haves and have-nots. And fans, themselves victims of the economy, are not buying tickets and merchandise as freely as they did even a year ago.

"Obviously, it's very difficult. It's on our whole industry," NASCAR chairman Brian France said. "But we will come out of this. We will do our part with the rest of the sports and entertainment (business) to weather the storm.

"We've been here before and it's never fun. It's never easy. But we will get through it."

France has met with representatives of all four manufacturers and said they are committed to honoring their contracts through 2009. While acknowledging their historical value to the sport, he said NASCAR's future isn't dependent upon their involvement.

And unless the bottom completely falls out of the economy, France isn't expecting a mass exodus of sponsors.

"Most of the companies, even in tough economic times, want to sell their products and services," he said.

More teams are going to joint primary sponsorships, which is what Tony Stewart has done with the team he'll co-own next season. But as an example of a developing trend, one of Stewart's sponsors is the U.S. Army, which is leaving a Dale Earnhardt Inc. team that is laying off more than 100 employees in the wake of a merger with equally cash-strapped Ganassi Racing.

Caterpillar, General Mills and UPS are among high-profile sponsors also moving to teams they expect to be more successful than the ones they left behind.

"It's a scary time right now," driver Jeff Gordon said. "We see strong teams struggling to get sponsorship. We're very fortunate that we have our sponsors tied down for several years, but even that doesn't guarantee anything in an economy like this."

With full-season sponsorships exceeding $20 million annually, NASCAR made a move last week to trim costs by putting a moratorium on testing at any NASCAR-sanctioned track.

That could save teams an estimated $3 million a year -- even more if the ban results in job layoffs, which is likely.

Reversing course

Until recently, NASCAR was leaning toward a more liberal testing policy that would have allowed up to 24 test dates for each team. But as the economy worsened, team owners began lobbying the other way.

Robbie Loomis, executive vice president of operations at low-budget Petty Enterprises, welcomed the news.

"If NASCAR were to open up (testing), teams were going to have to have extra trucks and trailers and extra personnel," he said. "The reason we have to test is everyone is testing. Now you will see it all go into the resources at the shop."

France said NASCAR is looking at other means to bring down costs but isn't in any position to offer direct financial support to teams.

The sport's most successful owner, Rick Hendrick, has won the past three Sprint Cup championships. His advice to rival owners: make sure every penny is spent wisely.

"You just need to have what you need and nothing more or nothing less," he said. "You need to take what you can afford when it comes to assets, people, parts, pieces -- everything."

Next season is almost certain to have fewer teams, with the possibility of not having full 43-car fields at some races.

"There's no question in my mind it will come back, but (next) year is going to be a real tough year," driver Jeff Burton said. "It definitely appears we're going to have a net loss of full-time teams."

Ultimately, Burton believes NASCAR's ability to weather the crisis isn't a matter of how many cars are on the racetrack.

"You can't ignore that people are being laid off, unemployment rates are rising, inflation is rising, the stock market is doing what it's doing," he said. "We have to have corporate America. We can't succeed if the corporations can't send money and people can't afford to come watch."

[red stick]

And David Brooks in the New York Times today notes this little known side-effect of economic recessions:

"Recessions breed pessimism. That’s why birthrates tend to drop and suicide rates tend to rise. That’s why hemlines go down. Tamar Lewin of The New York Times reported on studies that show that the women selected to be Playboy Playmates of the Year tend to look more mature during recessions — older, heavier, more reassuring — though I have not verified this personally."


As if things weren't bad enough.

[Rob]

Originally posted by rghojai
My understanding is that the testing "ban" applies to tracks where they compete... which means they are free to go to other tracks. (One person's opinion: ban it everywhere.) Someone said half-jokingly that Hendrick, RCR, DEI/Ganassi could get together, buy relatively cheap rural land, build a bare-bones 1.5 mile test track.

Why do that when Rockingham is available?

I heard that one or more teams may be thinking of buying North Wilkesboro for testing.

[paulogman]

Originally posted by Dmitriy_Guller
I really don't see the problem with hockey puck tires. So the cars are tougher to drive, boo-hoo. It's not like the racing is worse with them.

I am also pretty sure that in formulas with fixed downforce, such as NASCAR, lower tire grip would paradoxically result in less dirty aero problems. The reason is that the importance of aero grows exponentially with corner speed, and worse tires cut that down. The result is actually the reduction in the ratio of aero to mechanical grip.

making the tyres harder is not the problem. they were too hard and not rubbering in the track so the cars never got any grip. goodyear was afraid of the tyres blowing out because the teams were either under inflating them or putting too much negative camber in to the right side tyres

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Originally posted by red stick


That may be true, but nobody wants to see another 2008 Brickyard 400. There's bad tires, bad races, and then there's forced "competition yellows" because you can't get 25 miles out of a set of tires.

I meant bad in the other way, when the tires are like hockey pucks.

[WildmouseX]

Originally posted by rghojai
My understanding is that the testing "ban" applies to tracks where they compete... which means they are free to go to other tracks. (One person's opinion: ban it everywhere.) Someone said half-jokingly that Hendrick, RCR, DEI/Ganassi could get together, buy relatively cheap rural land, build a bare-bones 1.5 mile test track.

the ban is only on tracks that hold races, but it will also prevent them from using goodyead tires at unoffical tracks - so they will be at square one with using hoosiers - i personaly like thos system a little more, as it generaly leeds to teams not being able to roll off the truck with the perfect set-up - it still makes everyone work to get their cars tweeked the whole weekend.

goodyear test's are not affected by the ban - they will continue to test on offical tracks with offical tires - and invite one driver from each manu to participate. they have already held 2 test's at indy with a new tire compound that is so far performing much better.

new news - same problem with forgetting to post it...

with the DEI and Ganassi merger, there are two teams, the #01 and #15 both in the Top-35 in owners points, that will not be around in 2009. What will happen there? NO IDEA. Not looking for folks ideas, speculation etc. Have heard from folks saying they could be sold off, some saying they can not be sold off, some comparing this deal to the Ginn/DEI merger where the #13 team went away and just dropped off in 2007. NASCAR will ultimately make the decision and when anything concrete is heard, it will be posted.

it's already been stated that richard childress is making a push to buy one of those points for the new #33

After asking for his release, #44 crew chief Ryan Pemberton is expected to reunite with his friend and former boss Jay Frye at Team Red Bull. Pemberton, 39, spent this year working with David Reutimann and the #44 Toyota after weathering the MB2 Motorsports buyout and the Ginn Racing/Dale Earnhardt Inc. merger last fall. The Pemberton-led crew won the pole at Homestead, but finished 20th on Sunday. Pemberton's official position has yet to be determined

Todd Parrott, a second-generation racer with more than two decades of racing experience, was released from Yates Racing after leading the #28 Ford and driver Travis Kvapil to a 23rd-place finish in the point standings.(FoxSports), no word where Parrott ends up or who will be Kvapil's crew chief in 2009.

it's said that when you hear todd say " toddy want a cracker" over the radio, it means their taking only 2 tires and a splash of fuel.

#29-Harvick has been running at the finish in 80 consecutive races, the longest current streak and a NEW modern era record, next up is #07-Bowyer at 73 consecutive races. The all-time record for the longest streak of NOT having an DNF is 84 races held by Herman Beam from April 30, 1961 thru March 10, 1963. Kevin Harvick held the modern era (1972-present) record at 58 (10/3/2002-8/1/2004) unil he broke it himself in 2008. Next up is Jeff Gordon at 56 and Dale Earnhardt at 53 [Indy in 1996 thru Martinsville in the spring of 1998.

only 4 more races and harv will have an "all time" record - great job happy.

[red stick]

I didn't care for Harvick when he came up, but he's growing on me. And I never would have imagined that he was going to be NASCAR's Mr. Consistency.

[pingu666]

84 races, dayamn thats a long way...

[wewantourdarbyback]

Just finished watching the Homestead race and I find the 08 thread locked

So congrats to both Jimmy and Carl but for me the biggest congratulation goes to CHad Knaus making history, three in a row for a brilliant Crew cheif.

anyway

Can't wait for next season, seeing how Stewart-Haas starts out, how Jr gets on in his second season at Hendrick especially with Mark Martin joining to run a full season in a top team. Will JPM improve with the merger of the teams?

So many questions I can't wait for next year

[John B]

I wonder if Harvick isn't almost too consistent, having gone now essentially two full seasons without a win.

It will be interesting to see Kyle Busch's level next year. I for one suspect he was extraordinarily motivated to stick it to Hendrick and all the fans after departing for the golden boy, and used it to focus his talent and anger (if that's the word) for the tenths he was beating the field by. He soundly thrashed everyone for several months and made his point, then couldn't recover the motivation after the bad start to the chase.
Gibbs certainly had a disasterous Chase, ironically remaining dominant in nationwide even after the penalties and suspensions.

We'll also see what Gordon does after a winless year. Wonder if losing the 2007 title in the last races after a dominant season and start to the chase had a carry over for that team. If all else fails Ray Evernham might be available........

Roush has got to be thoroughly tired of coming up short after another great season. How many times has it happened in less than 20 years - at least 3 times with Martin, in 05 despite 5 cars in the chase, this year with Edwards.

[red stick]

Originally posted by John B
It will be interesting to see Kyle Busch's level next year. I for one suspect he was extraordinarily motivated to stick it to Hendrick and all the fans after departing for the golden boy, and used it to focus his talent and anger (if that's the word) for the tenths he was beating the field by. He soundly thrashed everyone for several months and made his point, then couldn't recover the motivation after the bad start to the chase.
Gibbs certainly had a disasterous Chase, ironically remaining dominant in nationwide even after the penalties and suspensions.

Busch and his crew chief seem to be a good team. I wonder what Stewart's departure will do to Gibbs--that's a lot of experience and racing savvy out the door. As scary-fast as Busch was this year, fielding a team of Busch/Hamlin/Logano isn't quite Johnson/Gordon/Martin/Junior. That team scares me.

[wewantourdarbyback]

Originally posted by red stick


Busch and his crew chief seem to be a good team. I wonder what Stewart's departure will do to Gibbs--that's a lot of experience and racing savvy out the door. As scary-fast as Busch was this year, fielding a team of Busch/Hamlin/Logano isn't quite Johnson/Gordon/Martin/Junior. That team scares me.

That team is very talented and Hendrick must fancy their chances, I'm also not sure how Logano will do, I know he's young but I was less than impressed with his runs this season. I predict a Hendrick v Rousch Fenway battle next season.

[pingu666]

from my perspective gibbs just seem to fall off in the chase, and the 48 just woke up and owned everyone cept carl :/

[red stick]

There's a certain amount of racing luck involved as well. Since the Chase started it's been generally accepted that you can have one bad race and probably still be in the hunt. Kyle had a pair of bad races right out of the gate, then, as others have noted, seemed to . . . lack motivation. Edwards had a bad race that took out a teammate (and fellow chaser).

Johnson did not have any disasters. Any winning three in a row makes you think luck really is the residue of skill.

[Lantern]

Originally posted by red stick
Johnson did not have any disasters. Any winning three in a row makes you think luck really is the residue of skill.

Jimmie has piles of skill, but the true force behind the machine is the team behind him. From top to bottom that team has amazing members(from Chief to the jack man). Gordon had the same when he won his titles but he had them taken away by other teams looking for an edge. Hendrick learned from the past and pays those guys well enough that other teams can't lure them away. Once you have chemistry between a talented driver and crew chief you better keep them happy and together and make sure they have as good a pit crew as you can afford. Simple, but tough to do.

[rookie]

Originally posted by red stick


Johnson did not have any disasters. Any winning three in a row makes you think luck really is the residue of skill.

Have to disagree with that one, Johnson had a rough start to the year and still got the job done. The fact that in a series as competitive as this, someone can win 3 in a row is the residue of skill. Luck certainly plays a part, but not 3 times.

[Lantern]

He was talking about disasters in the chase.

[VresiBerba]

Originally posted by red stick
And David Brooks in the New York Times today notes this little known side-effect of economic recessions:

"Recessions breed pessimism..."

I always thought that life-experiance bred pessimism. Well, you learn something new every day, obviously.

[whitewaterMkII]

Originally posted by Lantern



Jimmie has piles of skill, but the true force behind the machine is the team behind him. From top to bottom that team has amazing members(from Chief to the jack man). Gordon had the same when he won his titles but he had them taken away by other teams looking for an edge. Hendrick learned from the past and pays those guys well enough that other teams can't lure them away. Once you have chemistry between a talented driver and crew chief you better keep them happy and together and make sure they have as good a pit crew as you can afford. Simple, but tough to do.

Yeah, it's too bad that JJ's crew doesn't have anything as catchy as 'Rainbow Warriors' because that is every bit as good a crew as those guys were in JG's heyday. As for conpensation, I gurantee JJ is making a hit on the local Rolex dealer for each and everyone of his crew, if he doesn't he's a schmuck.;)
No doubt that out of all the teams out there, the Hendrick crew is the class of the field. Much as I hate the fact that MM is coming out of retirement for the umpteenth time, I mean retire or don't, he's a far more powerful part of Hendrick's than Mears could ever be.
Should be a good season.
And a tough thread to play in as well.
Great line up of posters here!

[red stick]

Originally posted by VresiBerba
I always thought that life-experiance bred pessimism. Well, you learn something new every day, obviously.

OK, you know I posted that for the Playmate item. And maybe the reference to skirt lengths. Nobody really links to David Brooks for sociological insights, although he thinks he plays a far better game in that area than he actually does.

[red stick]

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII
Much as I hate the fact that MM is coming out of retirement for the umpteenth time, I mean retire or don't...

To be fair to Mark, I don't think he's ever actually retired, the last two seasons being partial schedules. You're thinking Rudd. Or Elliott.

[whitewaterMkII]

Originally posted by red stick


To be fair to Mark, I don't think he's ever actually retired, the last two seasons being partial schedules. You're thinking Rudd. Or Elliott.

Oh, definitely on million dollar Bill, but IIRC, MM did the whole 'farewell tour' thing two years ago. Rudd was good, but he was never IMO in the same league as his 'classmates' Rusty and Martin. I just hope Martin's heart is in doing a full season, and frankly, while good with the press, he always came off as a whiner to me.

Some perspective on drivers ages, B Elliot. b. 55, T Richmond, b. '55, R Wallace b. '56, R Rudd, '56, D Jarrett, b. '56, M Martin, b. '59, E Irvin, b.59, Davey Allison, b. '61

[red stick]

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII
. . . IIRC, MM did the whole 'farewell tour' thing two years ago.

Come to think of it, you're right, he did collect his fair share of rocking chairs. The partial schedule deal with Bobby Ginn came as a complete surprise. Nevertheless, he has raced every year, extensively, since his "retirement."

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII
I just hope Martin's heart is in doing a full season, and frankly, while good with the press, he always came off as a whiner to me.

Well, I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion since I have always liked Martin as being one of the few of those left still operating in the Old School mode. He has never impressed me as a "whiner," but that is simply my observation of the man.

As for NASCAR and the economy, NASCAR will manage to survive. When the factories dropped out in mid-1957 and left more than a few teams and drivers high and dry, GN racing managed to survive. It managed to weather the 1971 season, one of the most difficult in its history. It will stumble around a bit, make some adjustments, and the show will go on.

The problems will be with the promoters and the lower level series, with both the Nationwide and truck series experiencing the pinch more than Cup, as well as the various weekly feeder series facing some thin wallets.

I can also foresee a problem if Johnson wins a fourth consectutive Cup title. There will be too much temptation to continue to monkey with the chase format, which will make an already bad idea only worse.

I don't see much of a future for the manufacturers as active participants in NASCAR. Certainly not at current levels; perhaps not even at greatly diminished levels, especially in the case of Dodge or GM. Ford and Toyota will probably be last to shut the door.

Which also raises the distinct possibility that NASCAR might actually take a look at the 5.8-litre formula it has been using for an eternity. Why it has not been dropped to, say, 5-litres (or lower) for Cup, that Nationwide or trucks have not gone to V-6's is a wonderment, but no mystery. However, it just might be time for those in Daytona Beach to ponder such things very seriously. I would not recommend holding one's breath until this happens, but reality's ugly head is rearing and NASCAR is going to have seriously consider such measures. Considering that Toyota, Nissan, Honda, and BWM are all now "American manufacturers" since they at least assemble most of those makes used for US domestic consumption, at some point the light bulb will begin to glow even for some as challenged to such thoughts as Brian France.

[red stick]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
Martin . . . has never impressed me as a "whiner," but that is simply my observation of the man.

Given some of his experiences with the NASCAR hierarchy over the years, I think he's been remarkably circumspect.

[red stick]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
As for NASCAR and the economy, NASCAR will manage to survive. When the factories dropped out in mid-1957 and left more than a few teams and drivers high and dry, GN racing managed to survive. It managed to weather the 1971 season, one of the most difficult in its history. It will stumble around a bit, make some adjustments, and the show will go on.

The problems will be with the promoters and the lower level series, with both the Nationwide and truck series experiencing the pinch more than Cup, as well as the various weekly feeder series facing some thin wallets.

* * *

I don't see much of a future for the manufacturers as active participants in NASCAR. Certainly not at current levels; perhaps not even at greatly diminished levels, especially in the case of Dodge or GM. Ford and Toyota will probably be last to shut the door.

Which also raises the distinct possibility that NASCAR might actually take a look at the 5.8-litre formula it has been using for an eternity. Why it has not been dropped to, say, 5-litres (or lower) for Cup, that Nationwide or trucks have not gone to V-6's is a wonderment, but no mystery. However, it just might be time for those in Daytona Beach to ponder such things very seriously. I would not recommend holding one's breath until this happens, but reality's ugly head is rearing and NASCAR is going to have seriously consider such measures. Considering that Toyota, Nissan, Honda, and BWM are all now "American manufacturers" since they at least assemble most of those makes used for US domestic consumption, at some point the light bulb will begin to glow even for some as challenged to such thoughts as Brian France.

NASCAR certainly seems to have carefully set up the operation in recent years so that the manufacturers aren't necessary. Building your own cars to your own spec hasn't much dampened the show. Why not NASCAR spec engines (which they already have to an astonishing degree) too?

[WildmouseX]

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII

Oh, definitely on million dollar Bill, but IIRC, MM did the whole 'farewell tour' thing two years ago. Rudd was good, but he was never IMO in the same league as his 'classmates' Rusty and Martin. I just hope Martin's heart is in doing a full season, and frankly, while good with the press, he always came off as a whiner to me.

Some perspective on drivers ages, B Elliot. b. 55, T Richmond, b. '55, R Wallace b. '56, R Rudd, '56, D Jarrett, b. '56, M Martin, b. '59, E Irvin, b.59, Davey Allison, b. '61

mark is giving hendrick exactly what they need - another year with an experienced driver so they can get brad polished up enough to make the sponsors happy - and hendrick is giving mark what he's never had before, an honest shot at the cup. - mark knows the score and is going to be a beast next year going after it.

[WildmouseX]

Originally posted by John B
I wonder if Harvick isn't almost too consistent, having gone now essentially two full seasons without a win.

how quickly we forget the all-star.... it may not count for points, but it's still a win.

[red stick]

Originally posted by WildmouseX
mark is giving hendrick exactly what they need - another year with an experienced driver so they can get brad polished up enough to make the sponsors happy - and hendrick is giving mark what he's never had before, an honest shot at the cup. - mark knows the score and is going to be a beast next year going after it.

Honest shot? He came pretty close with Jack Roush.

[whitewaterMkII]

Originally posted by red stick


Honest shot? He came pretty close with Jack Roush.

No doubt.
He's had good rides and just came up short, for whatever reason. BTW, maybe whiner was too harsh, but he just seemed to me to have some lame excuses for not finishing here and there.
The Hendrick ride is outstanding, but he's still gonna have to drive hard to even beat his teammates.
I'm hoping to see Lil' E have a great year. There has always been that under current of opinion that he is not all that, next year will prove the naysayers right or wrong IMO.

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by WildmouseX
and hendrick is giving mark what he's never had before, an honest shot at the cup.

I have to echo "red stick" on this since were it not for a points penalty due to carb spacer that was deemed illegal (a decision that raised more than a few eyebrows at the time, apparently something now long forgotten), Martin would have won a Cup championship in, doing this from memory so I have to hope this is correct, 1990.

[jdanton]

Yes that was 1990--the spring Richmond race was the penalty. The team also made a bad pit stop decision in the penultimate race at Phoenix, that cost them a bunch of spots.

I think the penalty was 100 points, and they lost by 42.

[red stick]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
. . . were it not for a points penalty due to carb spacer that was deemed illegal (a decision that raised more than a few eyebrows at the time, apparently something now long forgotten), Martin would have won a Cup championship in, doing this from memory so I have to hope this is correct, 1990.

I haven't forgotten. In fact I wondered if "honest shot" wasn't some kind of really subtle reference to this "cheating" incident.

[OfficeLinebacker]

Originally posted by VresiBerba
I always thought that life-experiance bred pessimism. Well, you learn something new every day, obviously.

How depressing.

[OfficeLinebacker]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps


Which also raises the distinct possibility that NASCAR might actually take a look at the 5.8-litre formula it has been using for an eternity. Why it has not been dropped to, say, 5-litres (or lower) for Cup, that Nationwide or trucks have not gone to V-6's is a wonderment, but no mystery. However, it just might be time for those in Daytona Beach to ponder such things very seriously. I would not recommend holding one's breath until this happens, but reality's ugly head is rearing and NASCAR is going to have seriously consider such measures. Considering that Toyota, Nissan, Honda, and BWM are all now "American manufacturers" since they at least assemble most of those makes used for US domestic consumption, at some point the light bulb will begin to glow even for some as challenged to such thoughts as Brian France.

I think it makes sense for all three series to use the same base engine.

If they go to a V6 formula, it should be across the board.

I suppose it would be interesting to homologate engines across all three series, but then how do you distinguish them in terms of performance with a CoT like car in N'wide?

Maybe have three different tire widths? Meh that's more costs, too.

Ballast?

[quietude38]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps


I have to echo "red stick" on this since were it not for a points penalty due to carb spacer that was deemed illegal (a decision that raised more than a few eyebrows at the time, apparently something now long forgotten), Martin would have won a Cup championship in, doing this from memory so I have to hope this is correct, 1990.

The thing about that penalty was that if the spacer had been assembled differently, it would have been perfectly legal. NASCAR gave him a 46-point penalty because the spacer was bolted and not welded (although the rules didn't specifically forbid bolts) and the final margin was 26 points.

Don't forget about the 1998 season, when Martin had a year that would have won a championship any other year, but Jeff Gordon was even better.

The problem he's going to face with Hendrick is that Hendrick's never been able to field four championship-caliber cars, for whatever reason. One car (used to always be the 25) would invariably be worse than the others. This year it was the 5, and if it's not next year, either Jimmie, Gordon or Junior will draw that short straw.