Jump to content


Photo

Specifying Damper Curves


  • Please log in to reply
34 replies to this topic

#1 Ben

Ben
  • Member

  • 3,186 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 21 January 2009 - 08:13

At low frequencies, if we increase the damping we reduce the maximum transmissibility, which is good, making a higher damping ratio at low frequencies desirable. On the other side of the crossover point, low damping ratios give a lower transmissibility, meaning low damping ratios are desirable at high frequency. Since low frequencies generally correspond to low damper velocity, and high frequencies generally correspond to high damper velocity, you can see now that you want a higher damping ratio at low damper velocity than high damper velocity. The next section shows how to take the above theoretical explanation and apply it to come up with a baseline damper
curve.



Sounds plausible? But then you get people like Dave Williams who runs the 4-post rig at Dynamic Suspension advocating linear dampers with similar high and low speed damping.

Any thoughts on this? FB has mentioned in the past that dampers really need to be sensitive to frequency not shaft speed to be truely effective, so I'm guessing that the biggest fallacy in the quoted piece is the assumption that low frequency = low shaft speed?

Ben

Advertisement

#2 McGuire

McGuire
  • Member

  • 9,218 posts
  • Joined: October 03

Posted 21 January 2009 - 12:24

That's what jumped out at me.

#3 Fat Boy

Fat Boy
  • Member

  • 2,594 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 21 January 2009 - 16:53

Originally posted by Ben


Sounds plausible?.... so I'm guessing that the biggest fallacy in the quoted piece is the assumption that low frequency = low shaft speed?

Ben


I don't know if it's a fallacy so much as a generalization. In general terms, the statement is true. The problem is that we're never really dealing with a constant shaft speed or a single frequency. Shaft speed is always accelerating one way or the other. The input frequency, while there might be dominant ranges, is spread over a spectrum. The trick is figuring out what shaft speed range most influences the problematic frequencies.

To further compound the problem, opening a bleed and 'softening' a damper doesn't always reduce the damper forces at high frequencies. Opening bleeds generally reduces hysteresis and that can actually increase the damping forces at high frequencies (due to the damper acting more like a damper and less like a spring).

To get back to your point, though, you can have:

Low speed (low amplitude) and high frequency (small pitter-patter bumps on a street course that can _destroy_ grip)
High speed (high amplitude) and low frequency (Cleveland airport circuit was a perfect example, big undulating bumps from taxi-way to run-way, controlling the chassis movement was very tough here)

#4 Greg Locock

Greg Locock
  • Member

  • 6,367 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 21 January 2009 - 22:20

If you look at the frequency content of any road that I've seen it is pretty much a straight line (on a log log plot) falling away with frequency.

However you would need to overlay the frequency response of the suspension and tire before that woud help much, tho the trend at very high frequencies would be the same. In the important area for car control,say 0-5 Hz, and for contact patch control, 0-30(?) Hz, I'd guess that the combination of those three curves is too lumpy to really draw any firm conclusions in the frequency domain.

I was in a revealing discussion earlier on this week where people believed that if two shock absorbers had the same plot for F vs V they were 'the same'.

Even if their potato plots are the same that is still not enough to characterise the dynamics of the shock especially if it is being excited by more than one frequency at once, which is inevitable on a road.

#5 Fat Boy

Fat Boy
  • Member

  • 2,594 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 21 January 2009 - 23:05

Originally posted by Greg Locock
If you look at the frequency content of any road that I've seen it is pretty much a straight line (on a log log plot)...


Isn't everything?

#6 Greg Locock

Greg Locock
  • Member

  • 6,367 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 22 January 2009 - 01:41

Depends on how thick your pen is. (Boom boom)

Here's an example (big clue on google image search, profile is not a great search term!)

http://www.tfhrc.gov...er93/p93su4.htm

Hmm that's log lin

#7 Fat Boy

Fat Boy
  • Member

  • 2,594 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 22 January 2009 - 04:25

This is one area where road cars and street cars diverge a little. Often we're on the same bits of pavement, but a street car has to handle pretty much all of it. Not so in a racecar. You only have to handle small bits of it very well, the turns.

Generally speaking, there will be some 'event' in a corner that causes a problem that makes a perfectly fine handling car go to pot. Figuring out what that event is, can be 1/2 the job of fixing it. Whether it be road crown, pavement transition, bumps, etc., you have to make the car work on it. On the straights, by in large, you can tell the driver to 'deal with it'. If a shock change helps what's happening in the corner, it almost never matters what it makes the car do at speed in a straight line.

When you take little snapshots of the problem areas of a track, you often get get big chunks of frequency content in the 3 Hz range. Why is this, you ask? Well, because you're not the only person having trouble there. Everyone is. A lot of cars run in the range of about 3 Hz and big HP cars tend to 'dig' the track up at something close to their ride frequencies once they're excited and hopping around. So the problem feeds on itself until the track falls apart and they repave it. If you find a place like this, you have to move your springs around to be over or under the offending frequency range.

#8 Greg Locock

Greg Locock
  • Member

  • 6,367 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 22 January 2009 - 08:43

That's similar to the corrugation waves we get on gravel roads. I haven't measured the wavelength, need to do that.

I'm very interested in characterising shock performance properly, it's funny because the same problems must have been faced by the Active Suspension guys - Richard Hurdwell are you out there? - basically a shock absorber is not a (mechanical engineering) damper - it is a little bunch of devilment.

#9 murpia

murpia
  • Member

  • 344 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 22 January 2009 - 09:56

Originally posted by Ben
But then you get people like Dave Williams who runs the 4-post rig at Dynamic Suspension advocating linear dampers with similar high and low speed damping.

What kind of test is this? Swept sine or using a track replay file?

My experience with track replay rig testing is that the best damper curves look 'normal', that is to say they have more rebound than bump and more low-speed than high-speed.

Even if you reduce the parameter space to bump & rebound, low-speed & high-speed, plus the transition velocity that's 6 parameters to play with per damper. With side and heave dampers for each axle that's 24 parameters to try and tune to a car and track...

Regards, Ian

#10 Greg Locock

Greg Locock
  • Member

  • 6,367 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 22 January 2009 - 10:01

I'm always concerned that 'analytical' damper curves are very symmetrical in jounce and rebound compared with those developed by people on the car.

#11 gbaker

gbaker
  • Member

  • 264 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 22 January 2009 - 12:39

Originally posted by Greg Locock
...basically a shock absorber is not a (mechanical engineering) damper - it is a little bunch of devilment.

I assume you are making reference to anything other than the most simple damper, the sort we use. More please.

Bottom line, can we rely on this force equation for upper neck loads: F = C * V?

#12 Ben

Ben
  • Member

  • 3,186 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 22 January 2009 - 13:14

Originally posted by murpia

What kind of test is this? Swept sine or using a track replay file?

My experience with track replay rig testing is that the best damper curves look 'normal', that is to say they have more rebound than bump and more low-speed than high-speed.

Even if you reduce the parameter space to bump & rebound, low-speed & high-speed, plus the transition velocity that's 6 parameters to play with per damper. With side and heave dampers for each axle that's 24 parameters to try and tune to a car and track...

Regards, Ian


Swept sine, pure heave, and the amplitude reduces as the frequency increases to keep the energy input constant.

Ben

#13 murpia

murpia
  • Member

  • 344 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 22 January 2009 - 16:02

Originally posted by Ben
Swept sine, pure heave, and the amplitude reduces as the frequency increases to keep the energy input constant.

I've always been a little sceptical of pure heave inputs to racecars - when exactly do you drop the car on the floor, except when coming off the pitstop jacks?

I can see how swept sine rig testing would be useful if the axle heave inputs are offset, to simulate the delay between the front and rear axle encountering a bump input. You'd need to vary the delay to simulate a range of speeds, then reference a circuit speed plot to identify the most critical speeds to performance.

Regards, Ian

#14 Fat Boy

Fat Boy
  • Member

  • 2,594 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 22 January 2009 - 17:12

Originally posted by Greg Locock
That's similar to the corrugation waves we get on gravel roads. I haven't measured the wavelength, need to do that.

I'm very interested in characterising shock performance properly, ......- it is a little bunch of devilment.


Exactly. A nasty gravel road is a great example. I'd guess the wavelength of those corresponds to the ride frequency of the rear of a pick-up truck at 30 mph....or is that a Ute at 50kph?

Indeed on the devilment.

#15 Fat Boy

Fat Boy
  • Member

  • 2,594 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 22 January 2009 - 17:18

Originally posted by Ben

But then you get people like Dave Williams who runs the 4-post rig at Dynamic Suspension advocating linear dampers with similar high and low speed damping.


Ben


I've seen weird results come off the Dynamic rig. The Multimatic Daytona Prototype was tuned on it, and was utter garbage on the track. The Newman-Haas Champ Car and AGR Indycar both spent time there and look great. I know of a lower formula car that was on it and ended up in left field (and it showed up with a race winning setup).

I haven't been there myself, so I don't really know any particulars. The results are so varied, though, I wonder what's going on.

#16 Ross Stonefeld

Ross Stonefeld
  • Member

  • 70,106 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 22 January 2009 - 17:34

Going back to the uhm, 3hz ripple bit thingy, is that why (oversimplified for BB fan clubs) you get the fairly even spacing of bumps in the brake zones of F1 tracks? On the telephoto lense shots it looks like a freshly plowed field at times.

#17 Fat Boy

Fat Boy
  • Member

  • 2,594 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 22 January 2009 - 18:47

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Going back to the uhm, 3hz ripple bit thingy, is that why (oversimplified for BB fan clubs) you get the fairly even spacing of bumps in the brake zones of F1 tracks? On the telephoto lense shots it looks like a freshly plowed field at times.


On the front end of the car, I'd expect them to be a little closer together/higher frequency, but yes, it's probably the exact same thing.

#18 Greg Locock

Greg Locock
  • Member

  • 6,367 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 22 January 2009 - 21:54

The gravel roads are mainly sculpted by water and big trucks, I doubt cars have any significant effect.

Incidentally it is a self reinforcing effect - even if your car is not tuned to the same freq as everybody else, you still end up bouncing off the same waves and making the pattern stronger.

Gregg- no F=C*V is no good for production car shocks at least, although WAG numbers of 1000 N/m/s will be somewhere in the ballpark. Race cars don't seem to diddle about so much with behaviour near zero, but still seem to have a reasonable disparity (say 50%) between jounce and rebound curves.

We occasionally straingauge shocks and then measure their velocities on the track. The resulting hairball plot bears a slight resemblance to the measured dyno performance,

#19 Lukin

Lukin
  • Member

  • 1,983 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 23 January 2009 - 01:37

5 years ago I heard that the Holden Commodores exported to the middle east had a big drama with the way they were being driven. Being driven on unsealed roads at Mach 4 had triggered a resonant frequency in the C pillar and they were failing at an alarming rate.

Advertisement

#20 Fat Boy

Fat Boy
  • Member

  • 2,594 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 23 January 2009 - 03:44

Originally posted by Greg Locock
The gravel roads are mainly sculpted by water and big trucks, I doubt cars have any significant effect.

Race cars don't seem to diddle about so much with behaviour near zero, but still seem to have a reasonable disparity (say 50%) between jounce and rebound curves.


Gravel roads that I'm used to are probably effected by grain trucks. Loaded, they may have similar ride frequencies to road cars?

Some of my most interesting work with racecar dampers has been close to zero velocity. Regardless of how much is going on, every time it changes direction, it has to go through that range twice. There's stopwatch time in playing around with the really low speed stuff. Done properly, it doesn't seem to adversely effect body motion control.

#21 Ben

Ben
  • Member

  • 3,186 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 23 January 2009 - 07:52

Originally posted by Fat Boy


I've seen weird results come off the Dynamic rig. The Multimatic Daytona Prototype was tuned on it, and was utter garbage on the track. The Newman-Haas Champ Car and AGR Indycar both spent time there and look great. I know of a lower formula car that was on it and ended up in left field (and it showed up with a race winning setup).

I haven't been there myself, so I don't really know any particulars. The results are so varied, though, I wonder what's going on.


That's interesting. I've attended two tests at the rig one with a GT car and the other with an LMP2. In both cases Dave's recommendation on tyre spring rate (in both cases to change the stiffness at one end) translated well to the track. We tend to take different constructions to Dynamics and play with pressure to get a direction and then create new tres to get the stiffness we want at the pressure we'd like to run at.

In the case of the LMP, we did a direct back to back of Dave's settings vs. the pre-test settings on track. The behaviour was as expected, the new settings gave better grip and reduced graining, but was slightly more medium-speed U/S because the front rebound had been backed out for load variation reasons and the nose was lifting more.

I think you have to go into a test there with spring rates you're happy with and play with dampers and tyre stiffness. Big spring changes on the rig haven't worked, because they alter the mechanical balance too much. It doesn't work for finding a setup window, just optimising within it.

Ben

#22 NRoshier

NRoshier
  • Member

  • 506 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 23 January 2009 - 08:08

Originally posted by Greg Locock
basically a shock absorber is not a (mechanical engineering) damper - it is a little bunch of devilment.


lol! I like this as I've been banging my head against the rock of shock information for six months...all of a sudden I do not feel so stupid!

#23 mariner

mariner
  • Member

  • 2,334 posts
  • Joined: January 07

Posted 23 January 2009 - 09:25

Not being a suspension engineer I am unable to add any vaild input but I would like to pose a question.

Is it right to suppose that the road surface is fixed,i.e a tarmac road is designed to flex slightly so as to distribute the vertical force down into the gravel substrate. If you took an extreme "road" and load which is a railway track the axle load is 20 to 30 tons and the whole track moves up and down into the gravel trackbed with every passing axle. That is what it is designed to do. So is it possible that there can be some micro movement of a race track when car is pushing down with several G? The references above to track break up imply that micro movement must occour or no break up in the braking zones etc.

So is it possible that if you are dealing with the few mm movements on race car wheels and dampers that lack of consistency between the rig tests and the real world is possibly the fact that the track flexes under the tyre and so slightly changes the true frequencies and motions versus the rig ( which I think is built to be completely solid)?

#24 McGuire

McGuire
  • Member

  • 9,218 posts
  • Joined: October 03

Posted 23 January 2009 - 12:09

Originally posted by Ben


I think you have to go into a test there with spring rates you're happy with and play with dampers and tyre stiffness. Big spring changes on the rig haven't worked, because they alter the mechanical balance too much. It doesn't work for finding a setup window, just optimising within it.

Ben


I am curious to know if LMP/GT teams are going to the K&C rig these days. Would you consider it?

#25 Ben

Ben
  • Member

  • 3,186 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 23 January 2009 - 12:19

Originally posted by McGuire


I am curious to know if LMP/GT teams are going to the K&C rig these days. Would you consider it?


When you day "the k&C rig" did you have one specfically in mind?

As a general answer I would say yes. As much just to check if there's an obvious compliance issue anywhere. So more of a one-off to validate an overall design rather than a regular repeat test. But I guess that would depend at what level we were talking.

I should be getting K&C for the car I'm developing with this year.

Ben

#26 RDV

RDV
  • Member

  • 6,765 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 27 January 2009 - 09:28

Arghhh....a really meaty subject and I'm on the road with limited connectivity!
Re 3~4Hz on FFT plots, you will find that it's @ tire natural frequency, and will be there no matter what, sometimes a bit higher @ 5hz on low profile 19" rims....there will be another characteristic peak at 19~22hz which relates to the chassis.
Gregg's point=

Incidentally it is a self reinforcing effect - even if your car is not tuned to the same freq as everybody else, you still end up bouncing off the same waves and making the pattern stronger.

also very true.
Re=

But then you get people like Dave Williams who runs the 4-post rig at Dynamic Suspension advocating linear dampers with similar high and low speed damping.

, on the shaker rig anything that improves the cost function will increase mechanical grip, but sadly not necessarily does not go the right way for aero pitch/height/warp control, so again if you are close to optimal on spring rates you can fine tune and get much better grip on the non-aero related parts.

As usual it is the fine art of compromise, but linear damping seems to correlate with non-aero effect cars....all reasonable downforce cars end up having pronounced 'knees' on the force/velocity curves, and not necessarily symmetrical...more next week when back to base, hopefully with representative curves and shaker rig plots... :wave:

#27 DaveW

DaveW
  • Member

  • 431 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 28 January 2009 - 21:22

Apologies for intruding, but I feel the need to respond to some comments about what I advocate & I do to some vehicles.

I won't comment on Ben's introductory quote, but his statement that Dave Williams is an advocate of linear damping is not exactly true, although I do believe that linear damping can yield optimal and consistent mechanical control.

Dampers are multi-functional. They play a large part in handling both road and driver inputs and determine how CPL varies whilst this is happening. They also influence transient lateral balance & affect steering time constant and driver "feel". The relative importance of these functions depends upon the driver, the vehicle and what it is required to do. So, for example a good damping "style" for Silverstone is unlikely to be optimal at Sebring, and "oval" damping styles would certainly not be appreciated in a WRC vehicle. Damping style is also affected by damper architecture. Greg Locock clearly favours a rebound-biased style, and this is probably a good strategy for, say, a Penske or a TT44. It is also a good strategy to counter a minimum static ride height rule. However, a compression-biased damping style demonstrably has the better contract patch load control (but worse ride) &, I suppose, most race vehicles I see now use this style of damping.

Fat Boy was a little unkind about the Multimatic DP vehicle. After all, it did win the first Rolex race. However, it was 100 kg overweight at the time, and an exercise to put that right sadly removed more than the weight. I would like to know which "lower formula car" we "put into left field", however. We see around 100 race vehicles a year on the two Multimatic rigs. Most teams return, suggesting that we add value some of the time, anyway.

On to the subject of rig testing. It is true that we will use swept sine heave inputs during a rig test more than anything else, but not exclusively. However, the objective is not to simulate track inputs (murpia), it is to understand the dynamic response of the vehicle. In fact, developing a working understanding of suspension setting limits and the effect of suspension changes is as good a reason as any for rig testing. The fact that we can often improve track performance directly is secondary. Why? Extracting performance from a race vehicle depends upon many parameters, only some of which are controllable (or even visible) during a rig test. If the mechanical set-up is a long way from optimal it is likely that other parameters have been compromised in order to compensate, in which case they will have to be unravelled before the vehicle is likely to deliver its potential performance.

It is certainly true that we tend to optimize damper set-up around team spring selections, as a first (low risk) step, anyway. The reason is that springs affect, and have to work with, vehicle properties in ways that are not obvious during a rig test. However, we do have a views about springs, and we often nudge teams in a direction that will improve mechanical set-up. As Ben suggested, slightly more speculative changes often include tyre stiffness (pressures).

And then there are drivers.... I sometimes think that most drivers would gladly throw away the suspension if the result could be made to work. I recall a (now) well-known driver stating, in his F3000 days, that a particular team's car was "sh*t, but puts you on pole". Says it all, really. More seriously, taking account of driver preferences (usually observable from a start set-up), is a) possible & b) advisable when optimizing the mechanical set-up of a race vehicle.

Enough of the epistle. I hope some of it is of interest - and I would appreciate an answer from Fat Boy...

#28 Fat Boy

Fat Boy
  • Member

  • 2,594 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 29 January 2009 - 18:17

Originally posted by DaveW
and I would appreciate an answer from Fat Boy...


You've got mail.

#29 Ben

Ben
  • Member

  • 3,186 posts
  • Joined: May 01

Posted 29 January 2009 - 22:36

Thanks Dave for posting - I've probably learnt more in the two days I've spent at the rig than anything else to do with vehicle suspensions.

Apologies for putting words in your mouth regarding linear dampers - I was going off a years old Race Tech article, which may have been slightly misleading.

Thanks again for joining the debate.

Ben

#30 DaveW

DaveW
  • Member

  • 431 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 30 January 2009 - 17:20

Ben's original quote was extracted from a web-published article by Matt Giaraffa and Sam Brisson. The authors argue the case for a rebound-biased, doubly digressive damping style. Their arguments are commendably clear and seductive but, with apologies to them, they are of questionable validity.

They argue, for example, that the highest damper velocities will occur at high frequencies. However, excluding discrete events, and atypical road features, maximum damper velocities are likely to occur at frequencies centred a little (perhaps 12%) higher than that of the heave mode (not a high frequency). Having said that, there is a case to be made for digressive damping styles in some applications, just as there is a case to be made for progressive damping styles in others. There is also a case to be made for frequency-sensitive damping. My observations suggest that most road vehicle dampers become "soft" at frequencies above 8-10 Hz. "Top mounts" can also help to reduce damper "efficiency" at high(er) frequencies.

They also argue that a target damping coefficient can be computed by quartering the sprung mass and treating the two axles independently. This is valid if, and only if, the heave and pitch modes are de-coupled (i.e. a pure heave input results in a pure heave response). Such a condition is rarely encountered, and ignoring pitch inertia forces will yield target damping coefficients that can be in error by a factor of two.

The authors also ignore unsprung mass, tyre stiffness, installation stiffness, and vertical force components carried by suspension links, all of which can (usually will) affect optimal damper settings.

They make the case for rebound-biased damping by assuming suspension forces that increase CPL are as damaging (to control) as suspension forces that decrease CPL. A moment's consideration of the extreme case where the CPL change exceeds the mean CPL should demonstrate the fallacy of this assumption. In fact, ignoring all requirements other than mechanical control (including idiotic static ride regulations), compression-biased damping styles will normally yield superior track performance (but not, of course, superior ride comfort).

Again, my apologies to Matt and Sam.

#31 Powersteer

Powersteer
  • Member

  • 2,460 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 01 February 2009 - 01:43

Can compression damping be tuned to absorb a compressing suspensions potential for negative effects of unsprung mass, suppressing a bump? That would make for more body reaction to a bump of course but using the vehicles weight to hold and control the unsprung mass if it becomes too much. On the opposite of this would be a cars suspension being too soft while unsprung mass is high.

:cool:

#32 DaveW

DaveW
  • Member

  • 431 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 01 February 2009 - 11:23

Interesting question & comment, Powersteer. RDV wrote about the "fine art of compromise", and this response will add weight to that view.

Suppose that heave mode natural frequency and damping ratio of a vehicle describe the level of control exerted by the suspension over the sprung mass. To a first order, assuming that tyre stiffness is sufficiently high, the natural frequency is affected mainly by suspension spring stiffness, whilst damping ratio is affected mainly by suspension damping coefficient. It turns out (again assuming tyre stiffness is high) that an "optimal" relationship exists between spring stiffness & damping coefficient at the frequency of the vehicle heave mode, such that the damping "stiffness" (damping coefficient multiplied by angular frequency of the heave mode) is a little greater than the spring stiffness. Two properties often have a large effect the "optimal" damper/spring ratio: tyre/suspension_spring stiffness ratio & "installation"/tyre stiffness ratio. All very simplistic, but the implication intended is that the ratio of compression/rebound damping does not have a first order effect on overall vehicle control (although a highly non-linear geometry can blow the concept away - into left field, if you prefer).

Now consider a moment in time when a wheel has impacted a discrete input (perhaps a kerb), and the contact patch load is about to fall below its mean value. It is not unreasonable to suppose that a "good" competition vehicle set-up will minimise the time that the CPL remains below its mean value and the magnitude of the CPL reduction, when time is allowed to move on from this initial condition. Such a set-up will exhibit a high initial unsprung mass acceleration (high ratio of spring stiffness/unsprung mass), and a high terminal unsprung mass velocity (high ratio of spring stiffness/damping force), suggesting that both unsprung mass and rebound damping forces should be low relative to the spring stiffness. The requirement for overall damping implies that a compression biased damping "style" can yield good modal control and good CPL control.

Does the concept work on track? A couple of years ago Multimatic worked with a GT customer running a vehicle with heavily rebound biased damping. A rig test was used to set up DSSV dampers for the vehicle having a mildly compression-biased style. Comparative track tests demonstrated that DSSV's reduced lap time by 0.6 seconds round a "road course". The team noted that the vehicle used less compression stroke with the new dampers installed. Lowering static ride height reduced lap time by a further second (lower average c.g. height &, possibly, improved roll centre height stability).

Is there a limit? Most customers I encounter now use compression-biased dampers, as I stated in my first post. Damping "split" ratios range from parity up to an improbable value of 7. Removing all the rebound damping will double compression damping forces, which will reduce sprung mass ride height stability. This can have a serious effect on down force for an aero vehicle - to the point where stabilizing the variation of damper load with velocity becomes a valuable explicit damper control. A digressive compression damping style can emulate this, of course (although the rationale suggests that the "knee" force will be track-dependent). Equally, a progressive rebound style can emulate the reduced rebound style, particularly over relatively long wavelegth inputs. A conventional "shimmed" damper architecture is likely to be more "efficient" with a rebound-biased characteristic (high compression forces are usually accompanied by "hysteresis" - equivalent to inserting a spring in series with a pure damper).

I've floating a confusion of ideas in this post without, for example, even mentioning the sprung mass pitch mode, or the unsprung modes (although these are normally over-damped in a good race vehicle). Arriving at a good compromise is a relatively complex mathematical task, even if an accurate dynamic model of the vehicle exists. A simple "hardware in the loop" rig test can help to validate a mathermatical model, but can also yield a reasonable set-up compromise without resorting to complex modelling. Importantly, a rig test can be used to yield parameter "sensitivities" (describing how the vehicle symmetrical response is likely to vary with changes in set-up variables)

Apologies for not addressing directly the point made by Powersteer. I hope this post helps, but I would be happy to expand on specifics (if I can).

#33 Greg Locock

Greg Locock
  • Member

  • 6,367 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 13 February 2009 - 11:17

http://farnorthracin...s_secrets6.html

I haven't read the text in detail but he at least includes some real measurements. If you haven't seen it before, he has a potato plot and a f/v plot, you might like to consider how the latter represents (and masks the detail of) the former.

#34 Fat Boy

Fat Boy
  • Member

  • 2,594 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 13 February 2009 - 17:14

Originally posted by Greg Locock
http://farnorthracin...s_secrets6.html

I haven't read the text in detail but he at least includes some real measurements. If you haven't seen it before, he has a potato plot and a f/v plot, you might like to consider how the latter represents (and masks the detail of) the former.


Interesting enough reading. It's for the clubbie autocrosser, but good enough for a Google search.

Interestingly enough, he talks about damper velocity histogram. This is a tool championed by Claude Rouelle in his classes. Motec, who he works with, has put this function directly in their data analysis software. For the life of me, I don't get it. Whenever I hear the justification for this tool described, it always comes to the same basic justification I'd use when stumped on a test in school. "It is intuatively obvious that the answer is 'A'." Sorry, that only works when _I'm_ using it. At it's root, it is still based in the time domain as opposed to frequency. That's a _huge_ weakness.

What the histogram does do for most people is convince them to open up the bleed in the damper. Generally speaking, I find that's the direction most people need to be led. Because of this, it may actually be a good thing, but not for its advertised reason.

#35 RecceDG

RecceDG
  • New Member

  • 1 posts
  • Joined: February 09

Posted 15 February 2009 - 07:22

Of all the discussions I've seen linked to my article, this is one of the most interesting.

Please note that once I get back from my tour in Afghanistan, I intend on substantially expanding the book. Right now it is more of a cheatsheet.

DG