150 replies to this topic

[pnegyesi]

Quote

Originally posted by Henk
“Die Ballonverfolgung mit Automobilen findet am Sonntag Nachmittags statt. Das für diesen Tag anberaumte Bergrennen auf den Jánoshegy musste auf einen späteren Termin verschoben werden.”
(‘Pester Lloyd’, Friday, May 12, 1905)

Apparently due to unsuitable weather conditions, the balloon chase was re-scheduled several times and probably never took place.

The hillclimb at the Jánoshegy was postponed for an indefinite period.

Thanks for the follow-up! I tried to browse through Pester Lloyd, but the Gothic alphabet put me down. I only checked the years 1896-1900 when I tried to verify who and when brought the first gasoline powered automobile to Hungary

[pnegyesi]

Hans, regarding Szénássy's accident at the 1929 Schwabenberg hillclimb. It happened during the actual event, not during the pre-qualifications.
He was too fast as he was trying to catch Hans Stuck and swerved into the spectators.

[pnegyesi]

It is a bit off-topic, as the following pictures were taken in the 1950s, but based on my conversation with David, you may be interested in these as well:



A road race on the Rose Hill (Rózsadomb), a picturesque part of Budapest in the early 1950s. I know the red car, it is an SJB Special, based on a pre-war Mercedes.




These were taken at Városliget (City Park), again some time in the 1950s.

[David McKinney]

Fantastic, Pal

Proof at last that there really was racing in Hungary at that time

(Aren't those two red cars in the park Skodas?)

[pnegyesi]

Quote

Originally posted by David McKinney
Fantastic, Pal

Proof at last that there really was racing in Hungary at that time

(Aren't those two red cars in the park Skodas?)

There were some form of racing in Hungary since the early 20th century

Yep, those are Skoda 1100 OHC cars. Naturally there's a forum for these here!

[anjakub]

Off-topic:
Pnegyesi, have you cars pictures of Ferenc Kozma (Fiat 1100) and Ferenc Kiss (Wartburg 900) from late 50’s.

[pnegyesi]

Quote

Originally posted by anjakub
Off-topic:
Pnegyesi, have you cars pictures of Ferenc Kozma (Fiat 1100) and Ferenc Kiss (Wartburg 900) from late 50’s.

I have interviewed Ferenc Kozma many years ago and got a few pictures from him. Have to find those. And yes, I have a picture of Ferenc Kiss and his Wartburg, but I have to ask the owner about permission. Do you need it for publication?

[anjakub]

Quote

Originally posted by pnegyesi
I have interviewed Ferenc Kozma many years ago and got a few pictures from him. Have to find those. And yes, I have a picture of Ferenc Kiss and his Wartburg, but I have to ask the owner about permission. Do you need it for publication?

Not yet, but maybe in further future. These cars interested me because Kozma and Kiss took part in race in Czestochowa in 1960.

[David McKinney]

Quote

Originally posted by pnegyesi
There were some form of racing in Hungary since the early 20th century

Information about racing in Hungary up until 1939 is fairly widely available, likewise from the early 1960s
But I know virtually nothing about the sport for the first 15 years after WW2, and suspect most of us here are the same

[Ron B.]

Number 8 appears to be an inline,any idea of what brand it may have been? Henderson maybe?

[pnegyesi]

Quote

Originally posted by Ron B.
Number 8 appears to be an inline,any idea of what brand it may have been? Henderson maybe?

Entry No8 was Antal Hartmann with a Henderson - so you were spot on.

[pnegyesi]

Quote

Originally posted by David McKinney

Information about racing in Hungary up until 1939 is fairly widely available, likewise from the early 1960s
But I know virtually nothing about the sport for the first 15 years after WW2, and suspect most of us here are the same [/B]

I see now that information up until 1939 is available, but some clarifications and additional info seems to be necessary ;)
Motor racing restarted in Hungary right after the War. In 1946 there were motorcycle races held, including some which were literally nothing else but organized runs around "blocks" - groups of houses.
There were obstacles, mostly stemming from lack of fuel. Organizers had to file requests for authorities, in order to have the necessary amount.
Later on, in 1950, lack of fuel and lack of parts led to a general ban on private automobile ownership by and large. But that's another story ...

[Pils1989]

What are the cars in the last picture, in post #1, please? Thanks

[anjakub]

There are Steyr

[Pils1989]

Quote

Originally posted by anjakub
There are Steyr

Thank you

[Martin Pfundner]

Quote

Originally posted by pnegyesi
There were a couple of topics in this forum which lightly touched upon this subject

I have been researching and collecting photos, documents, recollections, articles etc. on this topic (and a lot of others related to the history of Hungarian auto- and motorycle industry, personnel, racing, events, magazines et. al.)

Here are some examples from my collection:

Walter Delmar, Semmering, 1923

I would like to encourage forum members to suggest me new places, collections, possibilities. I believe I have seen all Hungarian archives, now I'd like to see stuff from outside Hungary

The top picture shows Walter Delmar standing next to Fritz von Zsolnay's Mercedes not at Semmering but at Svabhegy.Zsolnay's handwritten dedication is proof of it as it contains a date which is the date of Svabhegy 1923.

Martin Pfundner

[anjakub]

Welcome Martin.
Your books "Vom Semmering zum Grand Prix" and "Austro Daimler und Steyr" are base of my library.

[Martin Pfundner]

Quote

Originally posted by anjakub
Welcome Martin.
Your books "Vom Semmering zum Grand Prix" and "Austro Daimler und Steyr" are base of my library.

Thanky for your kind words about some of my books,

Martin

[pnegyesi]

Quote

Originally posted by Martin Pfundner

The top picture shows Walter Delmar standing next to Fritz von Zsolnay's Mercedes not at Semmering but at Svabhegy.Zsolnay's handwritten dedication is proof of it as it contains a date which is the date of Svabhegy 1923.

Martin Pfundner

Dear Mr Pfundner,
Nice to see you here. Thanks for the correction, for some reason, I always thought that this was taken at Semmering.

[humphries]

Excellent thread.

Any chance of detailed results of the Svab Hillclimbs? The reports in AAZ were very brief.


John

[pnegyesi]

I am trying to help Hans, so I have gathered together some results. Not all years, but most years are available, the missing years will be available by the end of March.

Also I will comb together results for the Guggenberg, Johannesberg, Harmashatarhegy, Dobogókő and a couple other road races, hillclimbs and touring races.

[David McKinney]

You are a hero

[Vitesse2]

In another thread, motorcyclist Endre Kozma was mentioned. According to the BMW Archive, Kozma won a motorcycle race at Tihany on September 1st 1940. Was there any other car or motorcycle racing in Hungary after September 3rd 1939?

[ferdi]

1936


http://retronom.hu/i...php?q=node/2511

Do you know the original source of these photos ?


http://effwun.google...om/Hungary.html


http://effwun.google...om/Hungary.html

[Hans Etzrodt]

Quote

Originally posted by humphries
...Any chance of detailed results of the Svab Hillclimbs?...

John - I have a lot of results about the various hill climbs. In most cases they are however incomplete and have to pieced together from various sources. I cannot do such work because I just do not have the time and desire to do so because I am busy with the 1932 races on Leif Snellman's page. Let me know which Svabhegy years you are looking for and I will mail them to you, then you can post them here if you want to.

1920, Oct 24	Svab (Budapest), 1st (4.750 km)

1921, Oct 9	Svab (Budapest), 2nd (4.750 km)

1922, Oct 8	Svab (Budapest), 3rd (4.750 km)

1923, Oct 7	Svab (Budapest), 4th (4.750 km)

1924, Sep 28	Svab (Budapest), 5th (4.750 km)

1925, Sep 27	Svab (Budapest), 6th (4.750 km)

1926, Sep 26	Svab (Budapest), 7th (4.750 km)

1927, Oct 2	Svab (Budapest), 8th (4.750 km)

1928, Oct 28	Svab (Budapest), 9th (4.750 km)

1929, Oct 8	Svab (Budapest), 10th (4.643 km)

1930, Sep 21	Svab (Budapest), 11th (4.643 km)

1931, Sep 20	? Svab (Budapest), 12th (4.643 km)  this probably did not take place

[pnegyesi]

Quote

Originally posted by Vitesse2
In another thread, motorcyclist Endre Kozma was mentioned. According to the BMW Archive, Kozma won a motorcycle race at Tihany on September 1st 1940. Was there any other car or motorcycle racing in Hungary after September 3rd 1939?

Yep, there were motorcycle races beyond 1939. When Kozma died there was a memorial race at Tihany in 1942. There was a hillclimb at Hármashatárhegy in 1942 and various other events, 'til 1943.

[Vitesse2]

Quote

Originally posted by pnegyesi
.... 'til 1943.

I knew motorcycle road racing continued in Ireland in 1940 and that there were one or two authorised scrambling events in Britain after that - under military authority and disguised as "off-road training" - but 1943 is almost beyond belief, given that Hungary was an active combatant by that time! Were these road races? Tihany presumably was, but what else?

[pnegyesi]

Previously I mentioned an article where we looked at where the Svábhegy Hill Climb took place and how it looks today.
It was published in the December, 1998 edition of AutoClassic, a nice magazine I edited once.

Click on the picture for a bigger version:

[pnegyesi]

Quote

Originally posted by Vitesse2



I knew motorcycle road racing continued in Ireland in 1940 and that there were one or two authorised scrambling events in Britain after that - under military authority and disguised as "off-road training" - but 1943 is almost beyond belief, given that Hungary was an active combatant by that time! Were these road races? Tihany presumably was, but what else?

Language-barriers. I've got absolutely no idea how to say "levente" in English.

The "Levente" movement was brought to life after the 1st World War in Hungary to circumvent a ban on recruiting regular soldiers. This ban, which was an idea by the winning powers was meant to limit Hungary's abilities to set up an armed military again.
By the 1920s Levente education became part of the education system and a lot of young people took part in training, which naturally involved military training as well.

Fast forward to the 1940s. There were a lot of young people within the Levente movement, who needed further training and some activities before they were sent to the War.
Therefore in the early 1940s, up until 1943 there were Gyorslevente (Quick Levente) races and even championships, where these young folks raced with each other. The motorcycles were usually 125 cc powered machines from Phanomen, Adler or from Hungarian companies, like SHB and BMG.

[pnegyesi]

Quote

Originally posted by Hugo Boecker
pnegyesi maybe you can help.
In 1935 Rudolf Steinweg had a fatal crash at the Guggerhegy (Guggenbergrennen) with his Bugatti.
It is unclear with wich of his cars he had his accident. The old T35C or the 51. To confuse this more he had individual bodies for his cars. One or even two, also still unclear, special monopostos or standard two seater bodies. Do you have some pics from papers or so of his the car he used?
thanks

Here we go

[Michael Müller]

Finally, after years of searching and waiting...!!
Thank you very much!!

Although I have to admit that this photo brings up new questions, because it is a mix out of both options I had in mind.
However, it seems clear that the car was not heavily damaged, and that a repair was worthwile. Important...

I don't like photos of fatal accidents, but this one is rather important for research.

[Hugo Boecker]

Thanks a lot. It will help.

[Hugo Boecker]

Quote

Originally posted by Hugo Boecker
Records were held at Gyon in 1934 as well. I think the first record was Burggaller's with an Austin 748cc on Oct.11th. Caracciola's were on Oct. 28th. In February 35 Auto Union made an attempt, but moved, due to the weather to Florence-Lucca with their streamlined car.

Caracciola's 1934 attempt to set a new record.

[humphries]

Hans

Thanks for the offer of Svab results but I know virtually nothing about any of the races. Unfortunately I am hopelessly behind with some deadlines and would not have time to collate the results. In any case I'm sure our Magyar TNFers would do a much better job with your information and theirs.

John

[pnegyesi]

Quote

Originally posted by pnegyesi
On 30, December, 1926 Salm-Rozsahegyi reported that 3 units of 8-cylinder chassis, bearing numbers 38311, 38310 and 38278 were brought to Hungary. Also an earlier chassis bearing number plate Bp 24-852 or 825 (I mistyped something here, so have to check the original letter) was sold to Count Tivadar Zichy

It was Bp 24-852 and was an 8-cylinder chassis which was sold to Count Zichy. Power is noted as 16 hp.

Can you tell me which model was this?

[Hugo Boecker]

In Rainer Simons book BMW 328 "Vom Roadster zum Mythos" I found a result for the 1938 Schwabenbergrennen (Svab?).
Date Oct. 10th 1938 (a monday !)
1. Rautenstrauch (BMW)
2. Christea (BMW)
3. Heinrich Graf von der Mühle-Eckart (BMW)
4. Paul Heinemann (BMW)
5. Fritz Huschke von Hanstein (BMW)
The class looks like 2Litre sportscar.
Was there a hillclimb at Svab 1938?
Was this event part of a rallye or something similar?

[Michael Müller]

Quote

Originally posted by pnegyesi
Can you tell me which model was this?

Must have been the T35 (2 litres un-supercharged) with serial #4828.

[terry mcgrath]

In a book I just received "Austin 7 competition history 1922-1939"
it mentions The Hungarian International Race meeting Prague 10 October 1934 in which Ernst-gunther Burggaller was driving an Austin 7 it notes he went on to aquire a bugatti.
I can highly recommend the book
terry

[David McKinney]

Not if it thinks Prague was in Hungary in 1934

[pnegyesi]

Quote

Originally posted by Hugo Boecker
In Rainer Simons book BMW 328 "Vom Roadster zum Mythos" I found a result for the 1938 Schwabenbergrennen (Svab?).
Date Oct. 10th 1938 (a monday !)
1. Rautenstrauch (BMW)
2. Christea (BMW)
3. Heinrich Graf von der Mühle-Eckart (BMW)
4. Paul Heinemann (BMW)
5. Fritz Huschke von Hanstein (BMW)
The class looks like 2Litre sportscar.
Was there a hillclimb at Svab 1938?
Was this event part of a rallye or something similar?

Are you sure this has taken place in Budapest?

[Hugo Boecker]

No, I haven't found this race at any primary source. Have you found any other possible event which fits from the result? Was thi monday perhaps a bank-holiday in Hungary?

[pnegyesi]

Hugo Boecker, on Mar 31 2009, 15:11, said:

No, I haven't found this race at any primary source. Have you found any other possible event which fits from the result? Was thi monday perhaps a bank-holiday in Hungary?

Hi
Sorry for the awfully late reply.

In mid-March my company got a new task and since then we worked our a.. off. It's now getting a little bit better.

Anyhow, I believe there's a Schwabenberg in Germany so I think this race took place in Germany, not in Budapest.

[pnegyesi]

Well, I was meant to send this in mid-March when we were discussing Bugatti racecars in Hungary.

I got into an argument with Gyula Buranyi, owner of these pictures,but after all, he let me publish these on the net:



Both pictures were taken at Svábhegy, 1926.
One is Károly Haupt, who was working for the Salm Hermann, the local Bugatti dealer with this red Bugatti T35A and the other is Károly Csermely, a renowned local racer and car dealer with this T37



Svábhegy, 1930, Count Ferdinand Liechtenstein who won the 2-liter sports category.

[venator]

I believe it was at Gyon where Eric Fernihough met his end while attempting a motor cycle World Speed Record on a Brough Superior in 1938.

[Hans Etzrodt]

Pnegyesi wrote:
... I believe there's a Schwabenberg in Germany so I think this race took place in Germany, not in Budapest.

In all the years of searching, recording and sorting hill climbs, I did not come across a German Schabenberg venue for motor sport.

BTW, I will delete the 1905 Svab climb from the list, thanks also due to Henk's post.

[pnegyesi]

Hans,
Couple more races which may be of interest:
- Race of the beginners. Hosted by KMAC (Royal Hungarian Automobile Club). Date: 25 April, 1937. Venue: Somewhere in Budapest. Street race for touring cars and motorcycles
- Jenő Reznicsek Memorial Race. Hosted by KAC (Kispest Athlete Club). Date: 2 May, 1937. Venue: in Kispest, which is today part of Budapest. Street race for touring cars, sports- and racing cars and motorcycles
- Frontharcos Túraút (Touring Race for Fighting Soldiers). Date: 29-30 May, 1937. Venue: all over Hungary.
- György Bartal Memorial Race. Hosted by the Tolnavármegyei Automobil Club. Date: 20 June, 1937. Venue: have to check

Is this format okay? What kind of other details do you need?

Regards,
Pal

[Rob Semmeling]

From checking the Austrian papers at ANNO:

The third Hungarian GP for motorcycles was held on a 2.75 km circuit in Budapest on 5 April 1931. Then on 8 April, there were records attempts over the flying kilometre and mile in Tat. Due to a problem with the electronic timing, it was ultimately decided to time by hand...!

No mention of a GP for cars on 6 April, since the "Sport Tagblatt" had very detailed coverage you can be sure it did not take place.

[pnegyesi]

During Easter, 1931 an "Autós-Motoros Hét" - automobile and motorcycle week was held in Budapest, including a Concours d'Elegance and the 3rd Motorcycle GP. The GP was hosted by the Budapest Sport Club (BSE), while most major sporting events were hosted by Royal Hungarian Automobile Club (KMAC).

There were efforts to add cars to the motorcycle GP but high costs prohibited this from happening. As far as I can gather from contemporary reports, a race required a lot of fuel which was expensive and Hungary did not have too many reserves.
No wonder that Motalko, a petrol-alcohol mix was introduced in the early 1930s which became the de facto fuel. However during races, petrol was used.

[Vitesse2]

A Hungarian Grand Prix appeared on the AIACR International Calendars for both 1937 (Jun 27th) and 1938 (June 29th). Presumably these were to be held in Nepliget Park like the 1936 race? Any information on when and why they were cancelled?

[pnegyesi]

Apparently there were efforts in 1935 to host a GP. After the success of the 1936 GP there were efforts to repeat it in 1937. I have to check contemporary reports why it was cancelled - I know where to look, just need to find the time to visit a library.