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Pre-war car and motorcycle racing in Hungary


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#1 pnegyesi

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Posted 27 February 2009 - 08:40

There were a couple of topics in this forum which lightly touched upon this subject

I have been researching and collecting photos, documents, recollections, articles etc. on this topic (and a lot of others related to the history of Hungarian auto- and motorycle industry, personnel, racing, events, magazines et. al.)

Here are some examples from my collection:
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Walter Delmar, Semmering, 1923

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Touring race through the Carphatian Mountains, 1914

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A touring race in 1927

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Gr. Kinsky at the 1925 Schwabenberg race

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The start of the first Schwabenberg race in 1920

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the caption says: the fist Bugatti racecars in Hungary, but it has not been verified yet.

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and if you are interested, you can download our list of entries for the Schwabenberg race, whenever it was available.

I am looking for more photos and documents, related to Hungarian events and people ( not necessarily Hartmann :)) from abroad. Through a nice friend I got some very nice pictures from the Porsche Museum.

I have found a few photos on the net, like this one:
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I would like to encourage forum members to suggest me new places, collections, possibilities. I believe I have seen all Hungarian archives, now I'd like to see stuff from outside Hungary :)

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#2 David McKinney

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Posted 27 February 2009 - 09:36

Schwabenberg is the nevue is referred to elsewhere as Svab - yes?
A hillclimb/mountain race

Is the linked entry-list from 1925?

#3 pnegyesi

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Posted 27 February 2009 - 10:59

Schwabenberg is Svábhegy in Hungarian. The attached list contains several years

#4 David McKinney

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Posted 27 February 2009 - 12:12

Thanks

#5 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 04:24

The following Hungarian pre-war venues are known to me...

Brennberg (Sopron or Ödenburg)
1928 -1931 course length 8.200 km.

Dobogókö (Budapest)
1935-1939 course length 7.000 km.

Gödöllő (Budapest-Hatvan Road),
1933 – 1934 course length 2.000 km.

Guggerhegy or Guggerberg (Budapest)
1926 –1933, 1935; 1934 not held; course length 1.752 km.

Hármashatárhegy or Dreihotterberg (Budapest)
1929 –1930 course length 3,575 km
1931, 1934-1937 course length 3,828 km
1932 –1933 not held

Jánoshegy [submitted by Pal Pnegyesi and unknown to me; possibly Johannesberg?]
1907, 1925-1930; for motorcycles only

Johannesberg (Budapest)
1905 course length 10 km (same as Schwabenberg?)
1925 course length 7.4 km
1926 –1929 course length 4.165 km (or 4.6 km)

Mátra (Eger-Gyöngyös, km-marker 7-14), 7 km north east of Gyöngyös. Gyöngyös is 80 km north east of Budapest.
1926 –1930 course length 7.000 km

Svabhegy or Svab or Schwabenberg (Budapest)
1905 course length 10 km (same as Johannesberg?)
1920 –1928 course length 4.740 km
1929 –1930 course length 4.643 km

Citypark Circuit of concrete and asphalt, dust free.
1 lap = 2.750 km. Annual Hungarian GP for motorcycles.
1920, 1930, 1931, 1932

Hungarian Tourist Trophy (Schwabenberg –Johannisberg)
1 lap = 13.5-14 km 1924, 1925, 1926
1 lap = 11.950 km 1927, 1928, 1929, 1930

Kecskemét, 80 km south of Budapest.
1 lap = 4.000 km (Kecskemét-Szeged-Beograd). Motorcycle GP of Kecskemét.

Kilometer Speed Trial (Budapest)
1934-36?

Népliget Park
1936, 1 lap = 5.000 km circuit

Sopron (Ödenburg) about 220 km west of Budapest and 33 km east of Wien-Neustadt.
1 lap =5.027 km. Motorcycle GP.

#6 David McKinney

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 07:36

Thanks very much for that post, Hans, if only to show the confusion of different names for the same venue in Hungarian and German

Some were further anglicised at the time, but easily identified (eg Mount Gugger and Dreihotter)

My limited understanding of languages suggest that János and hegy translate as "Johannes" and "berg", so I guess your suspicion is correct

#7 David McKinney

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 08:17

Other names I have come across:

Dreigrenzen
hillclimb 1936

Gyon (Budapest?)
venue of the annual kilometre sprint 1935-37

Tat (Budapest?)
venue of the 1934 kilometre sprint - same as Gyon?

Are these alternative names for venues already listed?

#8 pnegyesi

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 09:09

I tried to translate Hungarian names to German:
- Schwabenberg - Svábhegy. And we agree that it was 5077 meter long, 'til 1928.
- Guggerhegy - Guggenberg
- Harmashatarhegy - Dreigrenzen

and then we have a myriad others.

From 1899 run of motorized tricycles appeared as part of bicycles races. In 1900 a run of 2-3 four-wheeled cars appeared at a bicycle race in the city of Pécs. In 1901 as part of the first Budapest International Automobile Exhibition an automobile race was held on the Tattersall course (the horse racetrack course. The halls hosted the show itself). Later on there were air-balloon chasing races in Budapest.
In 1909 the Prinz Heinrich Fahrt ran through Hungary
In 1912 the Small Car Race was organized by the Royal Hungarian Automobile Club
In 1913 the Tatra-Adria touring race was held, followed by the 1914 touring race through the Carpathian mountains.
After the war there was naturally Schwabenberg in 1920, but other pioneer events included the Hortobagy-Balaton (Bodensee) run in 1922.
Hmm, let me know a format and I will try to come up with some organized lists.

And I found the map of the Johannesberg race course

Johannesberg and Schwabenberg - Jánoshegy and Svábhegy are two different, though close hills of Budapest

#9 Hugo Boecker

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 11:27

Records were held at Gyon in 1934 as well. I think the first record was Burggaller's with an Austin 748cc on Oct.11th. Caracciola's were on Oct. 28th. In February 35 Auto Union made an attempt, but moved, due to the weather to Florence-Lucca with their streamlined car.

#10 llmaurice

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 11:43

Wonderful photos . Many Thanks for posting them .

#11 pnegyesi

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 14:35

Originally posted by David McKinney
Other names I have come across:

Dreigrenzen
hillclimb 1936

Gyon (Budapest?)
venue of the annual kilometre sprint 1935-37

Tat (Budapest?)
venue of the 1934 kilometre sprint - same as Gyon?

Are these alternative names for venues already listed?


I believe I have clearedthat Dreigrenzen and Hármashatárhegy are one and the same

The first asphalt covered road was completed between Tát (near Esztergom) and Nyergesújfalu around 1927. Between 1928 and 1933 each year there was a "record day" held there
In 1934 the venue was changed. Between 1934-1937 the "record day" was held on a road, adjacent to Gyón (near Dabas)

#12 pnegyesi

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 14:48

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
The following Hungarian pre-war venues are known to me...

Brennberg (Sopron or Ödenburg)
1928 -1931 course length 8.200 km.

Brennberg is on the outskirts of Sopron

Sopron (Ödenburg) about 220 km west of Budapest and 33 km east of Wien-Neustadt.
1 lap =5.027 km. Motorcycle GP. [/B]


Jánoshegy [submitted by Pal Pnegyesi and unknown to me; possibly Johannesberg?]
1907, 1925-1930; for motorcycles only

Johannesberg (Budapest)
1905 course length 10 km (same as Schwabenberg?)
1925 course length 7.4 km
1926 –1929 course length 4.165 km (or 4.6 km)

Regarding races at Johannesberg/Jánoshegy: I find it very suspectible that in 1905 a motorcycle race should've been held there. Please quote a source. The Association of Hungarian Motorcycle Drivers was organized in 1906 and organized a race through Johannesberg-Schwabenberg etc. in 1907. This event was for motorcycles only.
The 1925-1930 were general sporting events, including both cars and motorcycles




Kilometer Speed Trial (Budapest)
1934-36?

See my previous post.

Népliget Park
1936, 1 lap = 5.000 km circuit

Citypark Circuit of concrete and asphalt, dust free.
1 lap = 2.750 km. Annual Hungarian GP for motorcycles.
1920, 1930, 1931, 1932

Népliget and City Park are one and the same. The 1929-1932 events were for motorcycles only, organized by the Budapest Sport Egyesület (Budapest Sport Club), while the 1936 Hungarian GP was an automobile event , part of the international GP calendar.


See my comments in italic.

Oh and one more thing:
Hármashatárhegy

Hármas means three times
határ means grenzen or border (choose your language :))
hegy means berg or hill

#13 pnegyesi

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Posted 01 March 2009 - 19:41

Just a small tidbit from 1937.

The Kispest* Athletic Club hosted a touring race held in the memory of Jeno Reznicsek in the 1930s. In 1937 it took place on 2 May.
And it was won by Ferenc Wiesengrund with a 2-liter BMW.

Fast forward to 1945. The newly formed Ministry for Traffic Matters compiled a list of vehicles which disappeared during the War. Mr Wiesengrund is quoted as saying that he last saw his BMW when the German Army drove it away in November, 1944.


*a village very close to Budapest, which since 1952 is part of Budapest

Well, if my newborn son and my schedule allows it, I will try to share you many results and anecdotes over the course of the next few months. I have already asked a friend of mine who covered the life of Laszlo Hartmann in great detail to submit one of his articles to me so I can translate it for you.

#14 pnegyesi

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 05:27

At the 1928 Schwabenberg race, Count Tivadar Zichy won. His time was an unbelievable 3:09:61 seconds with a Bugatti 2.3-liter Type 37 (if my memory serves me right it was a type 37 and not a type 35).

Maybe someone from UK can help me finding some more on this gentleman, because he was a British citizen :eek:

Theodor Bela Rudolph Zichy was born in 1908, the son of Count Rezso Bela Zichy, one of the founders of the Hungarian Automobile Club and Mabel Elizabeth Wright. He was born at Eastbourne at Sea in Sussex.
The whole family moved back to Hungary when "Count Tivi" was very young.
In his autobiography, That was no gentleman, that was Zichy he mostly describes his endeavours with ladies. But there's a chapter on his racing activities.
"At the age of seventeen I was fumbling my way through rallies, graduating from being placed last to fifteenth, tenth and sixth. Then Ettore Bugatti came into my life and for seven years nothing else mattered much (except drink and women). I raced a series of Signor Ettore's exciting types, showing "great promise" until, in 1928 I acquired the 2.3-litre "Targa Florio" which did 125 mph plus, and I realised with respect that this was not the kind of car which sould be driven unless one was completely sober".
Here's a typical example from his biography on how he won the 10 km "speed test" which is most probably the 1928 10-km speed run at Rakaaz organized by the Tiszantul Automobil Club (Tisztantul means over the Tisza, meaning one of the most eastwards part of Hungary):
"A Hungarian provincial car club organised a ten-kilomtere speed test, with a flying start, over a stretch of road.. As additional harads, the course had several sharp bends and a humpback bridge about half-way. Diriving a 2.3, I was well on the way to my top speed of 127 mph when I flashed accross the starting line. The car was bouncing on the uneven surface like a yo-yo. Safety belts were not invented yet, neither were crash helmets and the only way to remain in one's seat was by clinging grimly to the steering wheel and hooking one's left foot under the clutch pedal, but even so one's bottom was in the air like a jockey's most of the time. Owibng to other commitments I had arrived only the day before and had not had the time to study the course in detail. Quite suddenly the humpback bridge loomed up and I realised it was too late to lose speed. The Bug bounced off the bridge,literally took off, flew fifty fee through the air and landed with a sickening crash of springs on the dust shoulder...
After this there was nothing for it but to press on and I set up a time 116.5 mph. The narrow squeak had won me the race, as the other drivers prudently and sensibly slowed down at the bridge, and the next best time was 12 mph slowe than mine. The racing correspondents raved about my "heroic disregard for safety" and 2bulldog determination" and maybe I should have explained that I was so petrified I forgot to take my foot off the accelerator, but I didn't.
..
For several years, during the summer season, I raced week after week, mainly in Central Europe and the Balkans, against Caracciola, von Stuck, Brauchitsch, Werner, my team-mate von Morgen, Zawodowski, Prince Lobkowitz and on a few occasions against the great Louis Chiron, Count Ulrich Kinsky and the reigning Hungarian veteran chamion, Walter Delmar, from whom, by sheer luck, I wrested the championship in 1928".

His biggest victory was the 1928 Schwabenberg race, Though he said that he'd remained sober driving the Bugatti, one of his friends claimed in an interview in 1987 that back then, Zichy was not entirely sober...

By the early 1930s Zichy went bankrupt several times and ended up being back to United Kingdom.
In later life he became a film director and then a photographer.
He committed suicide on 30, December, 1984 aged 77.
His last known address: 8 Sandwich Street, London WC1

I would like to know what happened to his possessions. Anyone, got any ideas how to research further?

#15 fines

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 09:30

I'm sure there are others more qualified to talk about Zichy, but I have him in a Bugatti 35C, which is a blown 2-litre. The car you're describing (2.3-litre Targa Florio) is a 35T or, if it was supercharged, a 35B. A Bugatti 37 is something entirely different, a 4-cylinder. My records for the period are far from complete, and I have him only finishing 6th at the first AVUS-Rennen and the second Masarykuv Okruh each in 1931, and also a DNA at Juan-les-Pins in 1929 and Lwow in 1932. Sorry, I know nothing about his later life. Director and photographer? Sounds interersting... :smoking:

#16 David McKinney

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 09:47

My records have him in a 35T in 1928, though I suppose it could have been a T37 with the bigger engine

#17 pnegyesi

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 10:35

Okay, so it was a 35T. I learnt something today ;)

#18 Hugo Boecker

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 15:13

pnegyesi maybe you can help.
In 1935 Rudolf Steinweg had a fatal crash at the Guggerhegy (Guggenbergrennen) with his Bugatti.
It is unclear with wich of his cars he had his accident. The old T35C or the 51. To confuse this more he had individual bodies for his cars. One or even two, also still unclear, special monopostos or standard two seater bodies. Do you have some pics from papers or so of his the car he used?
thanks

#19 Vitesse2

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 16:12

Originally posted by pnegyesi

In later life he became a film director and then a photographer.
He committed suicide on 30, December, 1984 aged 77.
His last known address: 8 Sandwich Street, London WC1

I would like to know what happened to his possessions. Anyone, got any ideas how to research further?

According to IMDB he also had bit parts in two well-known British films: "The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp" (1943) and "Private's Progress" (1956). He produced three more (all of which seem to have been eminently forgettable, although one featured a chap called Stanley Morgan who British readers "of a certain age" (45-55!) may remember as the author of a series of soft-porn novels featuring one Russ Tobin ....;) )

Getting back on topic, all I can (perhaps) add to your knowledge is that in late 1981 Count Zichy's photographs of "legs of all shapes and sizes" were exhibited at the David Dawson Gallery, B2 Metropolitan Wharf, Wapping Wall, London E1.

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#20 anjakub

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 17:02

Originally posted by fines
...about Zichy, ... and Lwow in 1932.



Zichy in Lwow in 1932?
It is the same joke as presence of Polish president in GP Lwow 1932 (according to Leif's website).

#21 pnegyesi

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 17:48

Originally posted by Hugo Boecker
pnegyesi maybe you can help.
In 1935 Rudolf Steinweg had a fatal crash at the Guggerhegy (Guggenbergrennen) with his Bugatti.
It is unclear with wich of his cars he had his accident. The old T35C or the 51. To confuse this more he had individual bodies for his cars. One or even two, also still unclear, special monopostos or standard two seater bodies. Do you have some pics from papers or so of his the car he used?
thanks


Keep 'em comin'. In mid-March I am going to visit a local library and get all the race results, tidbits, facts that I can unearth.
I have notes here at home on every newspaper article which covered the Hungarian auto industry, racing, events, personalities etc. between 1897-1949 - dailies, trade magazines, sport magazines etc.
So when I get to visit the library, I know where to look :)

#22 David McKinney

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 18:06

Hugo

I think Erwin Tragasch's Bugatti book was fairly specific on the cars - do you have a copy?

#23 Michael Müller

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 22:18

David, no, Tragatsch has published some mistakes about Steinweg's cars. One of the most important ones is that he never realized that Steinweg converted his T35C into a monoplace. He's only talking about the Burggaller T51A monoplace which went to Steinweg.

The question of Steinweg's car at Guggerberg is extremely important for me, and a photo showing the car including the damages would be like Christmas and Easter falling on one day. Not that I like havoc photos, not at all, but it would help to solve a really complicated puzzle.

#24 Michael Müller

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Posted 02 March 2009 - 23:34

Originally posted by pnegyesi
His biggest victory was the 1928 Schwabenberg race, Though he said that he'd remained sober driving the Bugatti, one of his friends claimed in an interview in 1987 that back then, Zichy was not entirely sober...

Absolutely great...! :lol:

I am very happy that we now have also somebody from Hungary who hopefully will be able to answer all our questions and to fill the enormous gaps we still have. Believe me, questions will come, a lot of them. To give it a start - why was Hartmans Bugatti T51 white?

About Hungarian Bugattis, and especially those of Count Tivadar Zichy.

Chassis #4858 with engine #125T, a type T35B (2.3 litre supercharged), was imported by Bugatti agency Count Salm at Budapest in May 1928 and sold to Zichy. It was driven by road from Molsheim to Hungary with trade plates "6557-WW20". Still with the temporary French registration Zichy entered the car for the Matra hillclimb near Parad (hope this is the correct description) on 10 June 1928.
This race was won by Duke Antal Esterhazy in another Bugatti, chassis #4918 with engine 162, a type T35C (2.0 s/c). Also brand new, imported to Hungary by Count Salm in May 1928 together with the Zichy car. I am convinced that the Bugatti photo earlier in this thread show both cars most probably at Salm's Budapest premises. The right one carries the French trade plates "6557-WW..".
The numbering sequence of Tichy's car does not fit into the time frame, the chassis most probably dates back to 1927, and the engine number more detailed to mid 1927. Therefore I am convinced that #4858 was a former works car. The Bugatti factory files which have survived notice a car only when it has been sold.
Both counts entered their Bugattis also for the Svabhegy hillclimb that year.

A third car was imported by Salm with the same batch, a T35C with serial #4916 and engine #161, and as far I know also sold to Zichy. My notes say that with this car he made some record attempts in 1928, but details are missing. May be this was the 10-km speed run at Rakaaz, despite Tichy himself said it was the T35B.

Esterhazy with his Bugatti in spring 1929 - are we surprised? - made a trip to the Cote d'Azur. He participated in the Grand Prix d'Antibes at Juan les Pins on 1 April 1929, and the Circuit de la Riviera on 7 April 1929 at Cannes. Zichy was also on the entry list for Antibes, but was a "no show".

It must be said that these 3 cars had not been the first Grand Prix Bugattis imported into Hungary. Already in June 1926 Count Salm took delivery of #4828 (with engine #99), a T35 (2 litre unsupercharged). Most probably this car was sold to Count Karoly Haupt.

As my Bugatti research mainly covers the 8-cylinder GP cars, meaning the T35 and derivatives, my data about the smaller brother, the 4-cylinder 1.5 litre T37 and T37A, are very limited. But it seems that Salm imported various of them as early as 1926/27, with one of them went to Zichy.
Also some other T35/35B/35C appear in Hungary in 1928 and 1929, but most probably they had been "grey imports", or bought 2nd hand abroad, as none of them is listed as being exported officially to Count Salm.

Zichy is reported having sold the T35C #4916 to Laszlo Hartmann on 25 December 1929. Whether this deal really took place on Christmas day or already earlier with the car being presented by somebody to Hartmann at present - I have no idea.
However, I don't believe that it was the T35C (2.0 litre), because Hartmann in 1930/31 raced a T35B (2.3 litre), and Zichy in 1931 a T35C. So either the engines of #4858 and #4916 had been swapped when owned by Zichy, or the - basically reliable - information that Hartmann owned #4916 is wrong.

#25 pnegyesi

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 05:52

I don't want to sound like a nit-picker, but:
- Not Tichy, Zichy. Zichy is a very well-known aristocrat family in Hungary, their history stretching back to the Middle Age. There were also the Tichy brothers, but they were distributors of Adler in the 1920s and had no relation to the Zichy family whatsoever.
- And Eszterhazy or if you prefer Hungarian accents: Eszterházy. Another very well-known Hungarian aristocrat family.
- Not Rakaaz, rather Rakamaz
- Karoly Haupt was not a Count. He was a Lovag which in mirror-translation means Knight. It was a much lower rank than being a Count.

And now onto business!

Both "Count Hermann Salm-Hodgstraeten and Istvan Rozsahegyi, Automobiles Bugatti á Molsheim Hungarian main dealer" and Antal Eszterházy are being mentioned in Zichy's autobiography.
Zichy says that Salm and Rozsahegyi were more than just friends, while he describes Eszterhazy as being very aristocratic and looking down on people. Zichy also describes that the two of them set up a "racing stable" and he stole Eszterhazy's girlfriend.

Records of the Salm-Rozsahegyi company did not survive. I found some correspondence in the papers of the Budapest City Archive, Tax Department. Unfortunately the papers of this archive are intact only 'til 1926, and very few records exist beyond that.
On 30, December, 1926 Salm-Rozsahegyi reported that 3 units of 8-cylinder chassis, bearing numbers 38311, 38310 and 38278 were brought to Hungary. Also an earlier chassis bearing number plate Bp 24-852 or 825 (I mistyped something here, so have to check the original letter) was sold to Count Tivadar Zichy
On 14 April, 1927 the company brought chassis no 37248, 37249 and 37250 to Hungary.

I see that you use different numbers, so I wonder what the above numbers should refer to. These are definitely not number plates and these are being referred to as chassis numbers!

BTW Salm was born in 1888 in Klemonovo which was part of Yugoslavia and Rozsahegyi in 1903. They set up their company in October, 1926 (though Count Salm was already importing cars on its own in September, 1926) and they imported Bugatti cars 'til about 1928-1929.
They were not the first to import Bugatti cars to Hungary. The first recorded instance happens to be Motor Automobil Ltd, a rather dubious company from the early 1920s which was closed abruptly in 1923 after some dodgy matters with false checks.

Count Zichy most probably had at least two Bugatti cars. A newspaper report on which was published on 24, December, 1929 says that he sold his Bugatti to Hartmann. So I believe the transaction took place before Christmas. As Zichy was in big, big financial mess by that time, I believe he tried to get as much money as possible very quickly.
As newspapers only reported Hartmann receiving a new Bugatti in 1932, it is safe to assume that Hartmann used Zichy's Bugatti from late 1929, 'til 1932. This very Bugatti carried the number plate Bp 27-480.
I found it interesting that Zichy raced after 1929.

Browsing through my notes, I see that Baron András Wolfner also raced a Bugatti, and several other people. If you wish I can get you photos, but please be patient a bit.

An interesting footnote is that after the 2nd World War, 7 Bugatti racecars are claimed to survive in Hungary. All of them were smuggled out during the 1960s. One of them a Type 37 was featured in Motor Klassik, many years ago :)

#26 David McKinney

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 06:27

Keep it coming, Pal :up:

Originally posted by pnegyesi
On 30, December, 1926 Salm-Rozsahegyi reported that 3 units of 8-cylinder chassis, bearing numbers 38311, 38310 and 38278 were brought to Hungary...On 14 April, 1927 the company brought chassis no 37248, 37249 and 37250 to Hungary.


The first three are presumably Type 38 road cars, and the others Type 37s
I have a note that 36248 was supplied new to the Budapest agent, which seems to confirm this

#27 fines

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 08:25

Originally posted by David McKinney
Keep it coming, Pal :up:

Definitely! This thread is fast developing into one of the most interesting & fascinating going on at TNF! :clap:

#28 Michael Müller

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 09:32

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pnegyesi
Not Tichy, Zichy. [/QUOTE]Come on, a rate of 10:2 in favour of the correct spelling is a good result, isn't it?
The 2 "T's" I guess had to do with the late hour.... :cool:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pnegyesi
And Eszterhazy or if you prefer Hungarian accents: Eszterházy. [/QUOTE]I know that, but you will have no chance on my keyboard to type that, except you accept "´a".

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pnegyesi
Karoly Haupt was not a Count. He was a Lovag which in mirror-translation means Knight. It was a much lower rank than being a Count.[/QUOTE]Can we agree to "Baron"?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pnegyesi
On 30, December, 1926 Salm-Rozsahegyi reported that 3 units of 8-cylinder chassis, bearing numbers 38311, 38310 and 38278 were brought to Hungary. [/QUOTE]The T38 was a road car. It's 8C-2.0 engine was similar to that of the GP cars, but less powerfull.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pnegyesi
Also an earlier chassis bearing number plate Bp 24-852 or 825 (I mistyped something here, so have to check the original letter) was sold to Count Tivadar Zichy[/QUOTE]Would indeed appreciate details. Believe this was the T37 I mentioned in my earlier posting.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pnegyesi
On 14 April, 1927 the company brought chassis no 37248, 37249 and 37250 to Hungary.
I see that you use different numbers, so I wonder what the above numbers should refer to. These are definitely not number plates and these are being referred to as chassis numbers!
[/QUOTE]These are T37, 4C-1.5 unsupercharged.
The Bugatti nomenclature from the mid 20's onwards was 5 digits of which the first 2 refer to the model. However, the T35 was introduced in 1924 and therefore the whole series used the old numbering system with 4 digits in the 4000 block.
Curious to know to whom the 3 T37 went, one possibly to Zichy.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pnegyesi
They set up their company in October, 1926 (though Count Salm was already importing cars on its own in September, 1926) and they imported Bugatti cars 'til about 1928-1929.
They were not the first to import Bugatti cars to Hungary. The first recorded instance happens to be Motor Automobil Ltd, a rather dubious company from the early 1920s which was closed abruptly in 1923 after some dodgy matters with false checks.
[/QUOTE]The T35 of course was not the first Bugatti model. They built the rather successfull T13/T22 model from 1910 to 1926, and I'm sure that some of these cars had been exported also to Hungary. However, the bulk of them had been road cars in multiple versions, only few of the T13 had been short chassis "Brescias" which dominated the 1.5 litre class all over Europe in the 1st half of the 20's.

Interesting that Salm went out of business 1928/29, that confirms the fact that no cars had been delivered to them after 1928. Bugatti was rather generous in granting agency rights, if somebody promised to buy 3 cars he was appointed sole agent on the spot, especially if such person had a good reputation in racing circles. On the other hand such agencies had been taken away on short notice if somebody else looked more prosperous. I'm curious to know who took over the agency after that.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pnegyesi
Count Zichy most probably had at least two Bugatti cars. A newspaper report on which was published on 24, December, 1929 says that he sold his Bugatti to Hartmann. So I believe the transaction took place before Christmas. As Zichy was in big, big financial mess by that time, I believe he tried to get as much money as possible very quickly.[/QUOTE]Should have been 3, the smaller T37 in 1927, and in 1928 the T35C and 35B. Interested to know which one went to Hartmann, the 2.0 (35C) or the 2.3 litre (35B) car. Anything mentioned in the article?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pnegyesi
As newspapers only reported Hartmann receiving a new Bugatti in 1932, it is safe to assume that Hartmann used Zichy's Bugatti from late 1929, 'til 1932. This very Bugatti carried the number plate Bp 27-480.[/QUOTE]The "new Bugatti" is indeed a question which puzzles me since years. The car was a T51, basically a T35B but with DOHC engine and abt. 40 hp plus. Chassis and bodywork differed only in small details. Only 16 T51 had been built and sold before Hartmann's first appearance in his T51 (Avusrennen Berlin 22 May 1932), and none of them was delivered to Hungary. For 13 of them I know the 1932 whereabouts, only 3 may be potential candidates. However, I also cannot exclude that Hartmann's T35B was converted to T51, which was not that difficult. Such conversions had been done by Molsheim factory quite often, but all these cars then had been renumbered as T51 (#51xxx). May be Hartmann did the conversion by himself with parts purchased from Molsheim. Extremely interesting the registration you mentioned - Bp 27-480, because this is exactly the registration of Hartmann's earlier T35B. Don't know the Hungarian registration system, is it possible that he officially transferred this number from old to new car? If not, it would be another indice that the T51 was not new but the re-engined T35B.

I mentioned it already - the color of this T51 was white. Not only at it's first outing at the AVUS, but also at Monaco 1933 as photo proves. His T35B was dark, not multi-colored as his later Maserati, but unicolor.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pnegyesi
I found it interesting that Zichy raced after 1929.[/QUOTE]Me too, because I could not find him in 1930. I also do not know whether this T35C was the same he owned in 1928/29, or possibly another one he bought later 2nd hand.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pnegyesi
If you wish I can get you photos, but please be patient a bit.[/QUOTE]Yes, I really would appreciate these....!

#29 pnegyesi

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 10:01

Originally posted by Michael Müller
Come on, a rate of 10:2 in favour of the correct spelling is a good result, isn't it?
The 2 "T's" I guess had to do with the late hour.... :cool:


Okay, no problem at all, just did not want any further confusions ;)


I know that, but you will have no chance on my keyboard to type that, except you accept "´a".


Sure thing. Let's stick to Eszterhazy

You don't want to go into the trouble of typing Árvíztűrő tükörfúrógép (It is meaningless,just used to test Hungarian accents on any keyboard :))

Can we agree to "Baron"?


Nope, Baron was another title.
You had also sorts of titles in Hungary.
Count, Prince, Baron were real aristocrats. Although the Baron thing got distorted in the late 19th century when all sort of people were given Baron title :)
Lovag (Knight), Vitez (Brave or Victorius) and I can't think others, but I am sure there were others, were titles given to lesser folks.


These are T37, 4C-1.5 unsupercharged.
The Bugatti nomenclature from the mid 20's onwards was 5 digits of which the first 2 refer to the model. However, the T35 was introduced in 1924 and therefore the whole series used the old numbering system with 4 digits in the 4000 block.
Curious to know to whom the 3 T37 went, one possibly to Zichy.


I learnt something today - the Bugatti nomenclature! But no, the 3 T37 went to others, as I mentioned Zichy bought another, where I don't know the chassis number, just the number plate (and even that has a typo in my notes :blush: )


The "new Bugatti" is indeed a question which puzzles me since years. Extremely interesting the registration you mentioned - Bp 27-480, because this is exactly the registration of Hartmann's earlier T35B. Don't know the Hungarian registration system, is it possible that he officially transferred this number from old to new car? If not, it would be another indice that the T51 was not new but the re-engined T35B.


It seems I wasn't clear enough. Bp 27-480 is indeed the number plate of the T35B, the ex-Zichy car which ended up with Hartmann in late 1929!
Let's wait 'til mid-March when I get my hands on some contemporary magazines, not just my notes on further details!

#30 Michael Müller

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 10:39

Originally posted by pnegyesi
It seems I wasn't clear enough. Bp 27-480 is indeed the number plate of the T35B, the ex-Zichy car which ended up with Hartmann in late 1929!

Ah okay, I misinterpreted this.

By the way, also Hartmann owned a T37 before he bought the Zichy car, but that was a T37A thus the supercharged version as a photo confirms. No further details known to me.

#31 Michael Müller

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 10:42

Originally posted by pnegyesi
You don't want to go into the trouble of typing Árvíztűrő tükörfúrógép

Árvíztűrő tükörfúrógép
:p

#32 pnegyesi

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 20:15

Originally posted by Michael Müller

By the way, also Hartmann owned a T37 before he bought the Zichy car, but that was a T37A thus the supercharged version as a photo confirms. No further details known to me.


A photo? Can you share that photo with us? Or tell me its source...

And David:

I have a note that 36248 was supplied new to the Budapest agent, which seems to confirm this


I know you don't keep a lot of notes, but do you have any idea where that info came from?


And another non-Bugatti subject. A couple years ago I saw a book on the history of Sunbeam. There was a rather nice picture of Pal Feledi, a Hungarian motorcycle racer on a Sunbeam motorcycle. I tried to contact the company, but somehow I couldn't get that photo from their archive. Can anyone help tracking down that picture? I hopefully still have details of the book.

Thanks

#33 pnegyesi

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 20:16

Originally posted by Michael Müller

Árvíztűrő tükörfúrógép
:p


Hehe, you probably copied it :)

FYI it means a mirror drilling machine which can cope with floods. Okay, I told you it is meaningless :)

#34 pnegyesi

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 20:52

FYI: Zichy sold Hartmann the Bugatti T35B on 7 December, 1929. Today the car sits in a private collection in Sweden.

#35 Michael Müller

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 21:04

Originally posted by pnegyesi
Hehe, you probably copied it :)

:cool:


Originally posted by pnegyesi
A photo? Can you share that photo with us? Or tell me its source...

Posted Image

My earlier idea that he had this car before the T35B was wrong. He drove it in 1934 in order to race in both classes, the GP class and the voiturette class. Later he substituted it against a Maserati 6CM, as he also switched from the big Bugatti to a big Maserati 8CM.

#36 fines

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 21:41

Michael, how do you know this is a 37A? I really would like to know, as I'm pretty much clueless when it comes to differentiating Bugattis by exteriors... :blush:

#37 David McKinney

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 22:50

Originally posted by pnegyesi

And David:
I know you don't keep a lot of notes, but do you have any idea where that info came from?

I don't know what made you think I don't keep a lot of notes - I have so many I often can't find what I want :lol:
I did have a quick look at my likeliest sources for that information, without success. Perhaps I'll get a chance to delve deeper tomorrow

#38 Michael Müller

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 23:42

The GP cars had alloy wheels with integrated brake drums, the T35A (road version) and the 4-cylinder T37
wire wheels. Due to the brake drums change was not easy. Also the later T51/51A had alloy wheels, but different design. Radiator width was different, a narrow one for the very early GP cars, the "Tecla" (35A), and the 4-cylinders. The GP cars in 1925 got the somewhat wider "Miramas" radiator, and in 1927 the even wider "Targa" version. The radiator of the T51 was again wider, but not for all of them. In 1928 - if I'm correct - the supercharged cars got larger front brakes. Supercharged cars had a hole in the bonnet to exhaust the pressure from the relief valve, which was lower for the DOHC cars (T51/51A). The T51/51A had double tank fillers, but also the last series of T35B/C had these.

Type identification is a combination of all these details, plus potentially known info about who, where, and when. However, not always a type identification is possible, e.g. no way to spot the difference between a T35C and B, or between a T35 and a T39.

The car on the photo has wire wheels and small brake drums, thus a T35A, T37, or T37A. The hole in the bonnet says it's supercharged, so it must be a T37A.

#39 fines

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 08:10

Thanks, Michael! :up: Very much appreciated!

[Ich glaub' das werd' ich mir einrahmen, und über's Bett hängen! :lol:]

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#40 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 14:34

Originally posted by pnegyesi
...Johannesberg (Budapest)
1905 course length 10 km (same as Schwabenberg?)
1925 course length 7.4 km
1926 –1929 course length 4.165 km (or 4.6 km)

Regarding races at Johannesberg/Jánoshegy: I find it very suspectible that in 1905 a motorcycle race should've been held there. Please quote a source. The Association of Hungarian Motorcycle Drivers was organized in 1906 and organized a race through Johannesberg-Schwabenberg etc. in 1907. This event was for motorcycles only.
The 1925-1930 were general sporting events, including both cars and motorcycles...

Source: Automobil-Welt 1905, #16, p628
At the time of the 1905 Budapest Automobile Show (May 7 to May 21) a 10 km road race was planed for May 14 to the Johannisberg and Schwabenberg. The location of the start was at the tavern "Schöne Helena". There were divisions for motorcycles, light cars (400 to 650 kg), heavy cars (650 to 1000 kg) and touring cars (with 4 persons of 280 kg minimum weight). There were prizes for the first three finishers in each class. Additionally Count Bela Rudolf Zichy had donated a challenge trophy for the fastest time.

#41 pnegyesi

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 15:36

Oh, I see.

For the 1st Automobile Exhibition in 1901 a Graz-Budapest touring race was planned :) And eventually a rather smaller event took place at Tattersall :)
No, I never heard or read that this 1905 race really took place. I have to check my notes to be 100 per cent sure, but I am 99.9 per cent sure :)

The first proper automobile race in Hungary was the small-car race which took place in 1912.

#42 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 17:36

The brief article in Automobil-Welt 1905, #16, p628 was published on April 22, 1905 to show upcoming events. It is of course possible that the planned race was not held. There was no follow up report in that magazine.

A better source for Hungarian information was the Allgemeine Automobil-Zeitung, published in Wien (Vienna). This magazine brought regularly information for the many different automobil clubs, including the one for Hungary.

#43 pnegyesi

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 18:27

Yep, I browsed through AAZ from 1900 through 1926. By 1926 the local (Hungarian) motoring press had some excellent magazines, and AAZ seldom featured interesting articles. But I browsed through Europa Motor from the 1920s because it also featured Hungarian events extensively.

Haha! In 20, May, 1905 the Magyar Automobil Ujsag (Hungarian Automobile Magazine) featured an article on a Concours d'Elegance and "gymkhana" (some kind of event) which was held as part of the 2nd Budapest Autoshow.
One more item to look at when I finally get to the National Library :)!

#44 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 07:59

Originally posted by pnegyesi
...In 20, May, 1905 the Magyar Automobil Ujsag (Hungarian Automobile Magazine) featured an article on a Concours d'Elegance and "gymkhana" (some kind of event) which was held as part of the 2nd Budapest Autoshow...

Yes, for May 10 a "Ballon Chase" was planned, for May 12 a "gymkhana" was scheduled, the mountain road race for May 14 and on Monday, May 15 an outing for motorists to Visegrad. On May 19 another "gymkhana" was to take place, on May 20 a banquet for the Auto Show exhibitors and on May 21 evening the closing of the Auto Show.

#45 pnegyesi

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 08:07

A Balloon Chase took place in 1904. Not in 1905. I believe in 1905 only the gymkhana took place.

#46 pnegyesi

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 16:50

Hans, just to make you happy, I ran into the library. In 1905 only a "gymkhana" took place combined with a Concours d'Elegance. The gymkhana was a test of the driver's abilities on a closed circuit on balancing stuff and driving carefully.

#47 pnegyesi

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 17:02

Originally posted by Hugo Boecker
pnegyesi maybe you can help.
In 1935 Rudolf Steinweg had a fatal crash at the Guggerhegy (Guggenbergrennen) with his Bugatti.
It is unclear with wich of his cars he had his accident. The old T35C or the 51. To confuse this more he had individual bodies for his cars. One or even two, also still unclear, special monopostos or standard two seater bodies. Do you have some pics from papers or so of his the car he used?
thanks


Hugo, I looked at two contemporary motoring magazines, but only found obituaries, no pictures. Don't despair yet, there's more, but I will look at other magazines in late March

#48 Michael Müller

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 18:50

Even if there are no pictures, it would be helpful also to know for which class(es) he had entered.

#49 pnegyesi

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 20:05

Originally posted by Hans Etzrodt
The brief article in Automobil-Welt 1905, #16, p628 was published on April 22, 1905 to show upcoming events. It is of course possible that the planned race was not held. There was no follow up report in that magazine.


It is interesting to note that one of the earliest Hungarian motoring journalists was Arzén Cserépy, who went on to become a respected film producer and director in Germany!

#50 Henk

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 23:13

“Die Ballonverfolgung mit Automobilen findet am Sonntag Nachmittags statt. Das für diesen Tag anberaumte Bergrennen auf den Jánoshegy musste auf einen späteren Termin verschoben werden.”
(‘Pester Lloyd’, Friday, May 12, 1905)

Apparently due to unsuitable weather conditions, the balloon chase was re-scheduled several times and probably never took place.

The hillclimb at the Jánoshegy was postponed for an indefinite period.