82 replies to this topic

[f1steveuk]

I've been going through the boxes of photo's I have aquired over the years, and this one was at the bottom of one box. It still has it's "Topical News" caption sheet attached, which I think is wrong!! I don't think this is Eyston , in the AEC Diesel record breaker at Brooklands, I think we're in France, but I'd rather not suggest too much, and throw it open!!


I've left it "big" to allow for detail looking, but if Stuart wants to shrink it, no problem!

[fuzzi]

It is Montlhery and I think it is Eyston's AEC heavy oil engined record breaker.

[alansart]

Originally posted by fuzzi
It is Montlhery and I think it is Eyston's AEC heavy oil engined record breaker.

Although I have no idea as to who, what and where, isn't it going in the wrong direction for Montlhery. Or did they run the banking in both directions?

[RStock]

I don't know who that is , but it doesn't look like any of George Eystons cars that I have seen , but that doesn't mean much . It does bear a slight resemblance to some , perhaps it's a different version of one .

What puzzle's me is the wooden fencing at the top of the banking . I can't recall ever seeing any at Brooklands , Montlhery or even Sitges . Does that look familiar to anyone ?

[kayemod]

Originally posted by alansart


Although I have no idea as to who, what and where, isn't it going in the wrong direction for Montlhery. Or did they run the banking in both directions?

This subject is way out of my (small) areas of racing expertise, but I do know something about printing and photography. The original negative could well have shown the car going the other way, so you can't rule out Montlhery on those grounds. There have been a great many instances where photos were printed the wrong way round, either deliberately to fit in better with a page layout, or through a simple mistake on the part of the printer. With older printing processes, it was very easy to do this by accident, the voice of experience unfortunately.

[raceannouncer2003]

Although Eyston did run there, I don't know if it is Montlhéry...the wooden fencing doesn't look right to me either.

Also, Steve, the car in your photo appears offset, so designed to run on a track with left turns, and doesn't look the same to me as the cars in the following photos.

http://www.uniquecar...tory_diesel.htm

http://www.uniquecar...orge_eyston.htm

http://www.brookland...0/target26.html

http://www.brookland...0/target27.html

Vince H.

[lil'chris]

I've seen film of record attempts using the Montlhery banking anticlockwise on ,I think ,John Tates A Gentlemans Motor Racig Diary. IIRC there's some in car footage he shot from his road car.

Chris

[D-Type]

So, not George Eyston's AEC. Definitely offset so a purpose built record breaker?

Not Brooklands, probably not Montlhery. It doesn't look to me like Avus, but that might be a brick surface ... Monza? Sitges?

Or is it in the USA?

[RStock]

Originally posted by D-Type


Not Brooklands, probably not Montlhery. It doesn't look to me like Avus, but that might be a brick surface ... Monza? Sitges?

Or is it in the USA?

I'm wondering if it's a private test track , with the wooden fencing there so no one one can watch on . I suppose it could have been temporarily erected at an existing track though .

[f1steveuk]

Athought, there is more to this picture! The caption just didn't sit right, and still doesn't! I've gone through all I have on Eyston, some of it given to me by one of his daughters, and nothing matches. The offset is curious, as is the fencing, although the offset matches the direction of travel, curiously Eyston prefered running the other way to this, e.g clockwise, olthough it could have been printed in reverse. It looks like a concrete banking, but there aren't many clues!!

[RStock]

I agree it doesn't look like any of Eyston's cars .

The fencing is most puzzling to me . I've seen lots of photo's from Brooklands , Sitges and Montlhery , but never any with fencing .

It looks a bit dodgey in it's construction , which made me think it could have been a temporary one .

And if it's a test track , the only one I know of from that period is GM's Milford proving grounds .

[D-Type]

I wonder. Could the track be incomplete? And what we are calling fencing is actually the timber shuttering for a concrete wall or very steep road at the top of the banking. I'm at work so can't compare this with the detail at the various tracks to see if it fits any.

Is anybody in a position to ask Bill Boddy (WB)? He would know.

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by raceannouncer2003
Although Eyston did run there, I don't know if it is Montlhéry...the wooden fencing doesn't look right to me either.

Also, Steve, the car in your photo appears offset, so designed to run on a track with left turns, and doesn't look the same to me as the cars in the following photos.

http://www.uniquecar...tory_diesel.htm

http://www.uniquecar...orge_eyston.htm

http://www.brookland...0/target26.html

http://www.brookland...0/target27.html

Vince H.

I don't see why the original caption shouldn't be right.

If you look at the car in the 3rd photo the windscreen is the same as are the fairings around the front axle, radiator cap etc.
The nose has obviously changed but that isn't surprising on a record car.

If you look at the top of the banking in the 4th photo there is some kind of outer wall - could it be that the wooden fencing is some kind of shuttering for that?
The initial photo could have been taken in the opposite direction slightly further (anti-clockwise) round the track.

(I don't know about the first two pictures I was too impatient to wait for them to open!)

The construction looks similar to Brooklands as well - large 'square' sections of concrete, Sitges has a zig-zag between each section.

The banking is the right sort of angle for Brooklands - Sitges is narrower and much steeper (similar to Monza), Montlhery is steeper as well and the transitions aren't long enough for it to be near the start of the banking.

[Gerr]

Originally posted by fuzzi
It is Montlhery and I think it is Eyston's AEC heavy oil engined record breaker.

I think it is Eyston's Hotchkiss.

[Allan Lupton]

Originally posted by Gerr


I think it is Eyston's Hotchkiss.

Similar, I agree. Can only find this photo of a model of the 1934 Hotchkiss - perhaps it was modernised later.

[D-Type]

I would say that the track is not Sitges as there appears to be no sign of a wall opr fence at the top of rthe banking.

Any other candidates? Miramas, the Fiat factory roof,

[lil'chris]

Miramas banking was mucher flatter I think, whilst the FIAT building track ( Turin ) was more like a velodrome in terms of steepness and radius.

[Pullman99]

Steve has started something here!

I think Hotchkiss may be correct and that this could be Brooklands. It's the sort of thing that artist Geo Ham would have illustrated.

I believe that there is some reference to this car in one of George Eyston's books. Unfortunately, I do not have access to any references at the moment. The last time I visited the archives of Castrol at Swindon there was a good deal of material that remained essentially unidentified and I believe that there may have been some pics of this car in there as well. The NMM at Beaulieu also has some pics of thsi car I believe. I wonder also if this was another vehicle that aerodynamicist Jean Andreau had developed. The offset suspension would endorse the view that it was created solely for a banked circuit based attempt. 1934 perhaps?

[Dutchy]

A random thought but could the photo have been taken in America? I don't know enough about American racing history to offer anything serious but the offset to the left would suggest an American influence.

[D-Type]

Originally posted by Dutchy
A random thought but could the photo have been taken in America? I don't know enough about American racing history to offer anything serious but the offset to the left would suggest an American influence.

I had the same thought and I've asked the Americans on Trackforum what banked paved circuits other than Indianapolis existed in the USA prewar.
Board tracks were a short lived phenomenon both in terms of the market for that type of racing and the life of the tracks themselves.
I have a suspicion that most of their racing was done on dirt whether Championship cars or Midgets and the only paved banked tracks were a very few short tracks.

[f1steveuk]

Hopefully not a spanner in these good works, but.................

The same caption appears on this picture, because, as I often found on LSR pictures, the captioner would just print four the same rather than check for differences!

[f1steveuk]

Rad cap in the same place, but cannot see an offset!

[Alan Cox]

Originally posted by lil'chris
I've seen film of record attempts using the Montlhery banking anticlockwise

Although Montlhery seems in the process of being been ruled out, ISTR that the Moss/Hadley/Fairman XK120 record-breaking run was run in an anti-clockwise direction, too

[RStock]

Originally posted by D-Type
I had the same thought and I've asked the Americans on Trackforum what banked paved circuits other than Indianapolis existed in the USA prewar.
.

I also wondered if it could be an American track , particularly a test track/proving grounds , hence the fencing . The only one I know of from that time is the GM Milford track , which had some pretty steep banking , but the few period photo's I could find didn't show any fencing .

[RStock]

Does anyone have any photos of the Delahaye speed record car used in 1934 , I believe it was ? I think it was painted in the French blue , but I'm not sure . I've never seen a photo of the car , just a drawing .

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Alan Cox


Although Montlhery seems in the process of being been ruled out, ISTR that the Moss/Hadley/Fairman XK120 record-breaking run was run in an anti-clockwise direction, too

It was. There's a picture in the original edition of WB's Montlhéry book. And one of Eyston's Panhard - also travelling anti-clockwise.

Somewhere, I'm sure I've seen a picture taken from the section under the banking where the garages were showing a fence on top .....

[Gerr]

Originally posted by Vitesse2

It was. There's a picture in the original edition of WB's Montlhéry book. And one of Eyston's Panhard - also travelling anti-clockwise.

Somewhere, I'm sure I've seen a picture taken from the section under the banking where the garages were showing a fence on top .....

I have seen a pic like that also, but it wasn't so much a fence as it was advertising placards. The "fence" in the pic in post #1 doesn't look very strong or safe, looks more like the back of a billboard.

[vivafroilan!]

I was looking at images from Arteauto's current auction tonight and came across this poster -- different car, but Montlhery, counter-clockwise, & maybe some sort of fence thing on top...?

http://www.arteautoa...em.asp?ID=16224

[Pullman99]

Still not sure!

There are some pics on several sites of the Renault Nervasport record breaker that set new 48 hours records in Spring 1934. The daytime pic in Steve's original thread intro could be show a nose section that is removeable at night to expose the headlamps ??? The various Renault sites have more info on this attempt. Just a suggestion!

[f1steveuk]

Although curiously, the windscreen in the "poster" picture looks very similar! And just to add a twist, I recall it was Bert denly that gave me the picture..............

[Vitesse2]

Aha! Mention of the Nervasport reminded me where I'd seen the picture! In "Renault et Compétition: les folles équipées" by Gilbert Hatry there is a picture of the remains of the Vivasport, the Nervasport's successor. It was wrecked in Georges Berthelon's fatal crash at 3.30am on August 11th 1934, going over the top of the banking above the garages and tearing down a substantial section of the fence.

But the car in Steve's picture is neither the Nervasport nor the Vivasport.

[f1steveuk]

Of course, assuming the picture has been printed correctly, the offset could be because the car is simply based on a road going chassis, which means it would be left hand drive?

I have to say, I am now even more convinced the "Topical News" caption sheet, is wrong!

[Doug Nye]

Montlhery - record cars commonly circulated anti-clock.

DCN

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

Longshot.

I'm sure that most if not everyone has noticed but in the off-chance that it's escaped some, the banking in the initial post is clearly progressive in slope as opposed to uniform ala most NASCAR tracks of the modern day. Does this help pin down the venue?

Sry for stating the obvious.

[Jones Foyer]

Originally posted by Manfred Cubenoggin
Longshot.

I'm sure that most if not everyone has noticed but in the off-chance that it's escaped some, the banking in the initial post is clearly progressive in slope as opposed to uniform ala most NASCAR tracks of the modern day. Does this help pin down the venue?

Sry for stating the obvious.

It's definitely a bowl shaped section.

[f1steveuk]

oooooh! That's very "CSI" !!

[Alexander M]

I've found this picture not so long ago and was wondering what car it is. I think it looks like the one pictured in post #1, but features a different front end. Unfortunately, I don't remember the source of the photo, so if it violates the rules of the forum or someone's rights, I would immediately remove it from my post.
I hope this helps.

[markpde]

Originally posted by Alexander M
I've found this picture not so long ago and was wondering what car it is. I think it looks like the one pictured in post #1, but features a different front end. Unfortunately, I don't remember the source of the photo, so if it violates the rules of the forum or someone's rights, I would immediately remove it from my post.
I hope this helps.

Well done, Alexander! We're getting there, folks - louvres in the front cowling are different, but the lower nose intakes and cockpit / air intake are identical.

Here's an illustration of George Eyston's 1934 Hotchkiss at Montlhéry - pannier tanks are offset:



Link: http://cgi.ebay.com....emZ370159651804 (scroll down the link for further info)

So are Steve and Alexander's photos earlier versions of Eyston's Hotchkiss at Montlhéry?

[Alexander M]

I've found a bit of information here:

http://www.autodiva....180bc95f6ce3fa0

There are two versions of the car - the first one and the one I have already posted above.

[RStock]

Originally posted by Alexander M
I've found a bit of information here:

http://www.autodiva....180bc95f6ce3fa0

There are two versions of the car - the first one and the one I have already posted above.

Very good Alexander !

And the photo there is different a bit also .




No vent on the cockpit cowling , and the radiator , or what I suppose is the radiator , is under cover .

But all still a bit different than the first photo posted by f1steveuk . I guess we are seeing the different version of it's evolution ?

[markpde]

Originally posted by REDARMYSOJA
I guess we are seeing the different version of its evolution ?

Great find, Alexander - I was on that (excellent) website (http://www.autodiva.fr) yesterday (for the first time!) looking for info about the demolition of Jo Siffert's garage, and I never thought to look for this!

Perhaps Steve's photo (without lights, but with the cockpit vent) is the first evolution; the one Alexander posted yesterday is the second; the one posted today by Robby is the third; and this one (the other photo from the Autodiva website) is the fourth, and just about final, evolution:



Here's a vivid artist's impression (also in the eBay link posted yesterday) of a pitstop during the Hotchkiss's record run:

[Alexander M]

Mark, I completely agree with you that Autodiva was a great thing to discover. And I did it just today

I can't say that I know French, unfortunately, but with the help of translator I tried to figure out the meaning of those couple phrases there.
As far as I understood, the version with four headlights (shown by you in your last message) was the first one to come, while the one previously posted by me was a later version. But here again, I don't know where should the car in a first post stand - between or after both of them, although I have to say it resembles the 'later' car more than the 'first' one.
Maybe if we could ask the same question there, we could get an answer?

[markpde]

Hi Alexander. From various internet sources, it seems the Hotchkiss set numerous records at Montlhéry - 500 km, 500 miles, 1000 km, 1000 miles, 3 hours and 6 hours - for these, it wouldn't have needed the headlights, but perhaps it would have had the cockpit air vent (the runs took place in March 1934, so it wouldn't ever have been especially hot, but maybe there simply wasn't enough air to breathe). However, it also set records for 4000 miles, 5000 miles and 48 hours (it averaged just over 100 mph for the shorter runs, so presumably under 100 mph for the longer ones). The large headlights, as in the last photo posted and in the two paintings by Geo Ham (of its 48 hour run), would have been used for its 'long distance' configuration - maybe the three smaller headlights were found to be inadequate? Either that or they provided just enough light but saved drag, so maybe they were the later evolution?

It's possible that even the shorter runs were tried at night, since the car would probably have been faster in the cooler air - cars which race at 24-hour events such as Le Mans or Daytona often lap quicker in the cool of the night than in the heat of the day!

You could try inquiring further about the Hotchkiss on the Autodiva forum - good luck - you're better at foreign languages than me!

[RStock]

I decided to put all 4 versions in one post , for easier comparisons .









The last one , posted by Mark , looks to be the same one as in the artists drawing .



I notice that last one has one long slot for an air intake under the headlights , as opposed to three in the other pics . I wonder if there were more than one car during those runs ?

[fines]

Just a word of advice: look to the number of louvres in the bonnet if you want to find out about the chronology of the different versions of the car. Drawing boards tend to go for the minimum, while practical considerations usually add to the number, rather than the other way round...;)

[f1steveuk]

SUPERB!!!

So as I thought, "Topical Press" being British, or lazy, or a mixture of both, decided that it was Eyston, in the UK (Brooklands) in a British car (AEC) and applied the label accordingly, or it got unstuck, and re-applied by someone without a clue.

Thanks chaps I feel more confident about applying the correct info' to this picture now!

[Alexander M]

And Steve, by the way, was your picture called 'mont' from the very beginning? In this case I think there is no doubt that means 'Montlhery'.
I will try to ask on Autodiva and search somewhere else, as this car has intrerested me very much.

[f1steveuk]

No I called it "Mont" as I was pretty certain it wasn't the AEC at Brooklands!

[Alexander M]

Here is Montlhery with a fence. Picture dated 1932.

http://www.autodiva....=4693&mode=view

[Henk]

This seems to be the final version….