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Cosworth 4wd for sale?


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#1 RA Historian

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 21:43

I received the Mar/Apr issue of Vintage Motorsport today and there is an ad in the back for a "1968 Cosworth 4WD Prototype". Text includes "One of only two cars made by Cosworth for F-1". It says that it is in Australia and the asking price is $75.000 ! Lots of questions raised here, of course. I was aware of only one such car, and that being in the Donington Museum. And the price, $75,000??? How legit is this?

As if that is not enough food for thought, the next paqe lists a Cobra Daytona Coupe for $245,000 with the info that "this is not a kit car!". Despite statements in the ad that it has "authentic Shelby documentation", "documented serial numbers", "actual competition race history", etc., it just cannot be legit.

Am I not being a very trusting soul?

Tom

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#2 Todd

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 21:59

You can't buy a real Cobra Daytona Coupe for 20 times that. I could swear that one is coming up for auction and expected to set the record for US cars, if not the record for cars. Anything under 8 figures won't touch the reserve.

#3 macoran

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 22:04

Originally posted by RA Historian
It says that it is in Australia

Tom


As far as I know there has been one there for ages. It has been on a site/thread around here somewhere ,
will just have to trace where I saw it.
IIRC in an Aussie museum, last I remember next to an early Tyrrell.

#4 Pils1989

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 22:06

Wouldn't it be a South-African Daytona? I don't think those were/are sold as a kit.

#5 Doug Nye

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 22:11

My understanding is that the Cosworth from the York Motor Museum, WA, is based upon a spare tub/pilot build lash-up. The Donington example is the runner as tested in 1969 by Mike Costin and others. Only 40 years ago...

DCN

#6 macoran

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 22:31

Originally posted by macoran


As far as I know there has been one there for ages. It has been on a site/thread around here somewhere ,
will just have to trace where I saw it.
IIRC in an Aussie museum, last I remember next to an early Tyrrell.


An early Tyrrell = a March 701, you can see the Cosworth 4wd next to it in one of the main homepage pics.
Posted Image

photo from York Museum site.

Thanks for the memory jog Doug.

#7 RA Historian

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 23:49

Originally posted by Doug Nye
My understanding is that the Cosworth from the York Motor Museum, WA, is based upon a spare tub/pilot build lash-up. The Donington example is the runner as tested in 1969 by Mike Costin and others. Only 40 years ago...

DCN

So it is somewhat legit, but what one would get would be essentially a tub and four wheels.

#8 RA Historian

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 23:50

Originally posted by Todd
You can't buy a real Cobra Daytona Coupe for 20 times that.

My thinking exactly.

#9 Vitesse2

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 00:46

http://forums.autosp...&highlight=York

:wave:

#10 Todd

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 02:32

Maybe the Cosworth listing is legitimate. If it is the museum chassis, it isn't a car now and it never was. $75,000 is no bargain for anyone with a lick of sense. You could have more fun with a used Kia, and a wrecked autocross Pinto has more history.

#11 john ruston

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 12:17

It is the ideal thing to buy if you want to race one and price is reasonable as chassis has History.
If things like this did not race or were without value we would not have CM 250F's or Lancia D50's.
It could be an important buy.

#12 Stephen W

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 14:03

Originally posted by john ruston
It is the ideal thing to buy if you want to race one and price is reasonable as chassis has History.
If things like this did not race or were without value we would not have CM 250F's or Lancia D50's.
It could be an important buy.


I just wonder how much more it will cost the purchaser to make it race-worthy?

Engine & gearbox will not be cheap plus all the other odds and sods it will probably be the thick end of £40k. Which would make it over £100k - a lot for an unraced, unproven and in its day uncompetitive car!

:

#13 RA Historian

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 14:21

Originally posted by Stephen W


I just wonder how much more it will cost the purchaser to make it race-worthy?

Engine & gearbox will not be cheap plus all the other odds and sods it will probably be the thick end of £40k. Which would make it over £100k - a lot for an unraced, unproven and in its day uncompetitive car!

:

Not to mention the bits for 4wd!
Tom

#14 john ruston

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 14:48

You would need to spend at least 150K Pounds,probably more.

#15 Peter Morley

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 16:14

Originally posted by Stephen W


I just wonder how much more it will cost the purchaser to make it race-worthy?

Engine & gearbox will not be cheap plus all the other odds and sods it will probably be the thick end of £40k. Which would make it over £100k - a lot for an unraced, unproven and in its day uncompetitive car!

:


Race-worthy might be very difficult, if it didn't run at the time chances are you might not be allowed to run it anywhere these days.

Engine alone will be the best part of 40k - but not a magnesium DFV as they actually used in the test car!

Gearbox and transmission might not be too bad (especially if you could get away with adapting some modern stuff, which would also help make it work), but engine & trans are easily going to cost 50 grand.

But add all the stuff like bag tanks and everything else that has to be replaced to turn an old car into a historic racing car and you could easily end up spending a 100 grand on top of the purchase price.

However if someone could get it running and accepted it would make an amazing looking addition to the grid.

Apparently it was assembled by Crosthwaite & Gardiner from the parts that came with the runnning Donington car.

The official text is as follows:

COSWORTH EXPERIMENTAL 4 WHEEL DRIVE GRAND PRIX RACER
1969
UK
Cosworth-Ford DFV V8 DOHC
2993 cc 430 BHP @ 9000 rpm

During the early 1960s the "kit car" racer concept developed, with manufacturers utilizing engines, gearboxes, and other components to produce race-winning Grand Prix cars.

When the super-successful Cosworth-Ford V8s were developed, they enabled these kit car manufacturers to be even more competitive. By 1969, only BRM and Ferrari were responsible for manufacturing their own engines and gearboxes, as well as the basic chassis for their cars.

In 1968 Keith Duckworth (the "worth" part of Cosworth) decided that he would have a car developed to make ultimate use of his new Grand Prix engine and as a result, one of the most striking of the 1979 season's crop of four wheel drive cars came into being.

Robin Herd (who had designed two race-winning cars for the McLaren team and who later designed the successful March Grand Prix cars) was recruited by Keith Duckworth to design the new car, which was put together in Cosworth's Northampton works.

The cockpit was slightly offset to allow drive-lines to pass by its right hand side and the Cosworth DFV engine was turned around in the chassis to power a centre differential - as is normal four wheel drive practice.

The broad monocoque tub was extended to form flared aerodynamic sections between the wheels on either side, and an unusual inboard suspension system was adopted.

Four wheel drive was adopted as a way of increasing the car's traction. The car's design resulted in a significant proportion of its power being transmitted through the front wheels, with the resultant problems caused by having to transmit around 200 BHP through wheels which also steered.

Although the car was significantly faster in a straight line than any other Formula One car during testing at the Silverstone track in the UK, it suffered from a significant weight penalty and as the two wheel drive competition had by that time perfected other aerodynamic aids which offered lighter and simpler ways of achieving the same aims as the Cosworth car, the project was dropped.

No Cosworth ever raced and similar four wheel designs from Lotus, McLaren and Matra were also unsuccessful.

Only one other Cosworth four wheel drive car is known to survive and this was presented to the Donington Collection of Single Seat Racing Cars by Cosworth Engineering in 1971, together with all spare parts and components available.

This vehicle was purchased from the Donington Collection unassembled, and was restored in the United Kingdom before being made available to the York Motor Museum for display.

#16 Stephen W

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 17:35

It would be OK running the car on the Hills - just imagine it howling up Shelsley or Prescott in the wet!

:up:

#17 john ruston

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 22:17

I am sure it would be welcomed by Masters and it is different!Plenty of races.

#18 Peter Morley

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 22:37

Originally posted by john ruston
I am sure it would be welcomed by Masters and it is different!Plenty of races.


But only if it could get FIA papers?
Given the FIA won't even accredit real cars that actually raced in period, but didn't happen to take part in an International race, would they give papers to a car that is related to one that only did a few tests?
(As you can probably guess I find that bit of bureaucracy absolutely ridiculous).

Without FIA papers Master's can't let you come out to play - not until the revolution anyway.

Would certainly attract attention - the one in Donington always stood out to me, simply because it looks so different.

Hillclimbing - now that is an idea, less time for something to fail as well...

#19 john ruston

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 22:43

One way or another it would get HTP's.Don't know which nationality ASN though!

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#20 Todd

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 04:16

While it would be extremely novel to see one on track, provided it was an accurate reproduction of the car tested in the late '60s, it wouldn't have anything to do with historic racing.

#21 alansart

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 08:33

Originally posted by Peter Morley


But only if it could get FIA papers?
Given the FIA won't even accredit real cars that actually raced in period, but didn't happen to take part in an International race, would they give papers to a car that is related to one that only did a few tests?
(As you can probably guess I find that bit of bureaucracy absolutely ridiculous).

Without FIA papers Master's can't let you come out to play - not until the revolution anyway.


A problem that the unraced Hill GH2, which came up for sale recently, would have.


Originally posted by Peter Morley
Would certainly attract attention - the one in Donington always stood out to me, simply because it looks so different.


It certainly was different. I wouldn't mind seeing all three of these 4wd cars on track again.

Posted Image

#22 Stephen W

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 10:00

Originally posted by alansart
It certainly was different. I wouldn't mind seeing all three of these 4wd cars on track again.

Posted Image


Let's not forget the Matra MS84 that was also raced back in 1969.

:wave:

#23 Tim Murray

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 10:16

Originally posted by Stephen W

Let's not forget the Matra MS84 that was also raced back in 1969.

... and was the only one of the breed to score a World Championship point.

#24 john ruston

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 10:19

If this thing can't race in Historic Racing I could think of lots of other cars that should be banned.
Historic Racing is a game /pastime and a car like this would add interest .The racing scene has gone far beyond a mirror image of old time racing and having been in Sebring at the weekend this also applies to the States

#25 Macca

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 10:22

Originally posted by Tim Murray
... and was the only one of the breed to score a World Championship point.


......but with the 4wd disconnected, IIRC!

Sadly it was dismantled - perhaps Matra could recreate it as they've done with the MS640.

Paul M

#26 Tim Murray

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 10:58

As I understand it, the drive to the front wheels was disconnected completely in Mexico, not Canada. I suspect though that, even with the front wheels connected, the percentage of the torque directed to them would have been very very small indeed at that stage of its career.

#27 Ray Bell

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 11:29

Originally posted by Stephen W
It would be OK running the car on the Hills - just imagine it howling up Shelsley or Prescott in the wet!


Recall the last time a 4WD F1 car struck a wet patch at a hillclimb?

Or is that what you call throwing a dampener on things?

#28 Stephen W

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 12:11

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Recall the last time a 4WD F1 car struck a wet patch at a hillclimb?

Or is that what you call throwing a dampener on things?


Not strickly a hillclimb as it isn't licensed for competition but I know what you mean. The reason that 4-w-d fell out of favour on the hills was that the tyre technology moved ahead of the game and meant a less complicated 2-w-d was more competitive. Mind you having said that the new 'BRM' that is scheduled to appear is 4-w-d.

:wave:

#29 RA Historian

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 15:02

Originally posted by john ruston
If this thing can't race in Historic Racing I could think of lots of other cars that should be banned.
Historic Racing is a game /pastime and a car like this would add interest .The racing scene has gone far beyond a mirror image of old time racing and having been in Sebring at the weekend this also applies to the States

A very good point, John. I shudder to think of the (small) percentage of cars at any given "historic" meet in the States that really are legitimate.
Tom