2615 replies to this topic

[F.M.]

They closed my precious Ferrari F60 thread

It seems like this thread is inclined to wander off topic. At 184 pages, I'm not surprised. If you would like to start a new thread on a specific topic, please feel free to do so.
Thanks, Mel

So let us take another try at keeping this about the car as much as possible! Maybe if we are good boys here, they will open the actual thread again.

In any case, it might be a good thing to start a special "Ferrari post race thread" after each GP


--------------------


IMPORTANT:

rdebourbon aked me to change the first post of this thread together with its title in order to make it clear that this thread is about the car.
However, I think it should be possible to post other information about Ferrari in here too (regarding the drivers, management, etc.), as well as having sensible discussions about them. I believe every Ferrari fan here should be mature enough to make this possible.

People who desperately want to bash the Ferrari pitcrew, drivers, management or the guys at the factory: feel free to do so in a separate thread!

If some members aren't able to bring up this bit of respect towards the other posters here, I hope the moderators take action against them, instead of closing this thread too (no offence though, the previous thread wasn't readable anymore anyway)

As a last note: if YOU feel an (informative) post will lead to a big discussion, open up a new thread about it or ask the poster to do it, while also deleting his post here or making a reference in it to the new thread;
Be sensible enough to not start the discussion in here yourself.

So to summarize:
- All information regarding Ferrari is still welcome, but
- Let's all keep this thread clean of the trash that ruined the "Ferrari F60"-thread

Edited by F.M., 11 May 2009 - 12:45.

[Tomerell]

I think we should keep this topic alive, but in topic

The inside info esp. from AFCA has been really welcomed. Hope we can still keep this discussion alive and interesting.

Is there any news of the new Ferrari gearbox and full DDD floor yet? MTV3 commentator JJ-Lehto said during the weekend that is should be ready by Monaco...

[Tomerell]

They closed my precious Ferrari F60 thread



So let us take another try at keeping this about the car as much as possible! Maybe if we are good boys here, they will open the actual thread again.

In any case, it might be a good thing to start a special "Ferrari post race thread" after each GP

Damn, you were 6 mins faster than me

[Atreiu]

1 - the car seems reasonably quick;
2 - the team has made so many mistakes and suffered from so many mechanical problems and gremlins that it barely seems like the Ferrari we got used to;
3 - I wonder if - and only if - when Alonso joins Ferrari it'll self implode like Prost at Ferrari. I doubt Alonso would show much patience having something going wrong ever other race.

[F.M.]

Damn, you were 6 mins faster than me

Hehe, but I have to give it to you that "Ferrari F60B" might have been a better name New car, new thread.
I can't change it, can I?

Mods?

[modamas]

It would be very nice to see the new gearbox + full DDD already at Monaco. Might be another good step then.

[F.M.]

It would be another great achievement indeed. However, I think it would be better to spend the extra 2 weeks before Turkey on it too, as in Monaco downforce isn't that important.

Any word on Ferrari using KERS in Monaco? You read everywhere that KERS won't be beneficial there, but I think having a slight boost of 0.5-1 sec. out of each corner could still help quite a bit in overall laptime (Qualifying!)

[brabhamBT19]

car is ok, but the management is awfull. They would still be on few points even if they ahd a dominant car. DDD has nothing to do with it. They need to sack 50% of the team. Maybe even one of the drivers. And at the end of the season sack the other one two. Than sign Pat Symmonds, Fernando Alonso and Sebastian Buemi for 2010, and they should build a team around Alonso, just like they did with MS

designers are ok they do not need to be sacked

Edited by brabhamBT19, 11 May 2009 - 10:36.

[F.M.]

Hehe, but I have to give it to you that "Ferrari F60B" might have been a better name New car, new thread.
I can't change it, can I?

Mods?

Thanks!

[Verderer]

It would be another great achievement indeed. However, I think it would be better to spend the extra 2 weeks before Turkey on it too, as in Monaco downforce isn't that important.

Any word on Ferrari using KERS in Monaco? You read everywhere that KERS won't be beneficial there, but I think having a slight boost of 0.5-1 sec. out of each corner could still help quite a bit in overall laptime (Qualifying!)

Is there really any hurry anymore? This season is done in any case, so they might take their time. Sure, they can collect some points and even wins if they do the development, but what will that gain them except their pride?

This being their all time low in recent history, coupled with the proposed budget cap, and I wouldn't wonder if Ferrari pulled out of F1 altogether. Max should play his cards really carefully now... (well what he really should do is resign, but fat chance of that happening?)

[F.M.]

car is ok, but the management is awfull. They would still be on few points even if they ahd a dominant car. DDD has nothing to do with it. They need to sack 50% of the team. Maybe even one of the drivers. And at the end of the season sack the other one two. Than sign Pat Symmonds, Fernando Alonso and Sebastian Buemi for 2010, and they should build a team around Alonso, just like they did with MS

No no no, not in this thread!

[brabhamBT19]

No no no, not in this thread!

why?

[mel]

So let us take another try at keeping this about the car as much as possible! Maybe if we are good boys here, they will open the actual thread again.

perhaps you need a clear spec for this thread?

[Gilles4Ever]

perhaps you need a clear spec for this thread?

keeping this about the car as much as possible

not clear enough?

[kar]

Sadly, the one remaining island of sanity, the car threads, have been swamped.

Time to push the eject button

[F.M.]

keeping this about the car as much as possible

not clear enough?

I think he means to get the "Ferrari F60" thread re-opened?

So what do you propose Mel, making this an "official" Ferrari (management) bash-thread or something?
I think my idea of having a special "Ferrari post-race"-thread was quite good already

[Tomerell]

It would be another great achievement indeed. However, I think it would be better to spend the extra 2 weeks before Turkey on it too, as in Monaco downforce isn't that important.

Any word on Ferrari using KERS in Monaco? You read everywhere that KERS won't be beneficial there, but I think having a slight boost of 0.5-1 sec. out of each corner could still help quite a bit in overall laptime (Qualifying!)

The problem with introdusing the new gearbox and floor is that driver should run 4 races with one box or a penalty of 5 places will be imposed. Now at least Kimi is free to change the gearbox without penalty, so why not try it with him already in monaco if possible. Things cant go much more wrong than they did in Spain...

Edited by Tomerell, 11 May 2009 - 11:14.

[F.M.]

The problem with introdusing the new gearbox and floor is that driver should run 4 races with one box or a penalty of 5 places will be imposed. Now at least Kimi is free to change the gearbox without penalty, so why not try it with him already in monaco if possible. Things cant go much more wrong than they did in Spain...

Massa used a new gearbox in Barcelona, wonder if they are going to wait till Germany with him..

[Tomerell]

Massa used a new gearbox in Barcelona, wonder if they are going to wait till Germany with him..

That is a severe problem for Ferrari, which only shows how stupid rules we have in F1 nowadays:
You can change engines as you wish as long not using more than 8, but you must run 4 races in a row with the same gearbox. What was the idea FIA had when they rolled out this rule, why not have the same max number of units, but free choice for change for gearbox also

Edited by Tomerell, 11 May 2009 - 11:36.

[1fastSS]

If the benefit in speed gained outweighs the costs, then Ferrari will take the penalty.

[MikeTekRacing]

Things cant go much more wrong than they did in Spain...

I keep thinking that from australia but they always prove me wrong

[MikeTekRacing]

Any word on Ferrari using KERS in Monaco? You read everywhere that KERS won't be beneficial there, but I think having a slight boost of 0.5-1 sec. out of each corner could still help quite a bit in overall laptime (Qualifying!)

and race start...crucial at monaco

[1fastSS]

Let's put it this way, Ferrari won't go any faster without it.

[jano]

It would be another great achievement indeed. However, I think it would be better to spend the extra 2 weeks before Turkey on it too, as in Monaco downforce isn't that important.

Any word on Ferrari using KERS in Monaco? You read everywhere that KERS won't be beneficial there, but I think having a slight boost of 0.5-1 sec. out of each corner could still help quite a bit in overall laptime (Qualifying!)

Using KERS in the tunnel and especially when going uphill would be an advantage for sure.
Also using it a bit in each corner would help with acceleration and help them achieve somewhat better lap times.
Not to much of an advantage at the start given the short distance to turn 1, however if they start on the first row they can make sure they stay first.

I hope they will keep it for all races.

[Tomerell]

Let's put it this way, Ferrari won't go any faster without it.

I think Ferrari will keep it in every race left this season. The F60 was built with KERS in mind and now that they have managed to lighten Kimis chasis the weight disadvantage has reduced. They will gain more with than without the KERS.

Edited by Tomerell, 11 May 2009 - 12:22.

[rdebourbon]

I think Ferrari will keep it in every race left this season. The F60 was built with KERS in mind and now that they have managed to lighten Kimis chasis the weight disadvantage has reduced. They will gain more with than without the KERS.

Yup thats the way I see it to.

[Madras]

I'm not sure it is useful at Monaco, it really depends how much time they lose in the many corners because of the less than ideal weight distribution.

For us to sit here at home and claim we know the answer is a bit ridiculous.

[OfficeLinebacker]

No no no, not in this thread!

The other constructors' threads are called, for example, Brawn GP/BGP 001. Why does Ferrari warrant a thread ONLY about the car? There has to be a place to discuss the team itself, the strategy (or lack thereof), etc. That's the way it works.

I know, dumb question. Ferrari gets special dispensation.

[jano]

Massa used a new gearbox in Barcelona, wonder if they are going to wait till Germany with him..

Getting a 5 place penalty once is actually less penalizing than running a slower car for 3 races. Especially if the new package means they are best. Also they can make up at least 1-2 places at the start.

[jano]

I'm not sure it is useful at Monaco, it really depends how much time they lose in the many corners because of the less than ideal weight distribution.

For us to sit here at home and claim we know the answer is a bit ridiculous.

IMO weight distribution is more important on tracks with medium and high speed corners. Monaco is rather about slow corners and the small advantage in terms of balance would not be more than the advantage given by having KERS to improve acceleration out of the many very slow corners.

[Madras]

IMO weight distribution is more important on tracks with medium and high speed corners. Monaco is rather about slow corners and the small advantage in terms of balance would not be more than the advantage given by having KERS to improve acceleration out of the many very slow corners.

In your opinion? And your opinion is based on what?

[tarmac]

http://www.mtv3.fi/u.../2009/05/875509

So according to MTV3 Kimi said to Schumi in Malaysia to get lost.

[rdebourbon]

The other constructors' threads are called, for example, Brawn GP/BGP 001. Why does Ferrari warrant a thread ONLY about the car? There has to be a place to discuss the team itself, the strategy (or lack thereof), etc. That's the way it works.

I know, dumb question. Ferrari gets special dispensation.

No thats not it, As shown with the previous CAR thread, as soon as Ferrari team discussion is introduced, the thread rapidly grows to unmanageable sizes.

By starting a CAR specific thread, all the info relevant to the updates, is in 1 place, and that was the original intent of the F60 thread.

If you want to discuss Ferrari tactics and strategy, feel free to use another already exisiting thread, or create a new thread..

As to why Ferrari discussions take up so much more space, Someone summed it up pretty nicely on the old thread:
While Ron Dennis created a business, and a popular race team, Enzo created a religion..

Edited by rdebourbon, 11 May 2009 - 12:45.

[primer]

http://www.mtv3.fi/u.../2009/05/875509

So according to MTV3 Kimi said to Schumi in Malaysia to get lost.

He did?
In which case it deserves its own thread.

[jano]

In your opinion? And your opinion is based on what?

On my knowledge.

[jano]

http://www.mtv3.fi/u.../2009/05/875509

So according to MTV3 Kimi said to Schumi in Malaysia to get lost.

Let's keep at talking about the car.

[F.M.]

READ THE FIRST POST


------

He did?
In which case it deserves its own thread.

Exactly what I mean!

Edited by F.M., 11 May 2009 - 12:46.

[brabhamBT19]

why isnt car exclusiv thread in thechnical sub forum at first place

[F.M.]

The other constructors' threads are called, for example, Brawn GP/BGP 001. Why does Ferrari warrant a thread ONLY about the car? There has to be a place to discuss the team itself, the strategy (or lack thereof), etc. That's the way it works.

I know, dumb question. Ferrari gets special dispensation.

Read the edited first post

It's just that we can miss the "the Ferrari drivers should be replaced by those two guys, the management should be sacked and be replaced by that guy, etc." discussions in here

[F.M.]

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/75252

Q. What do you have to do because you have trouble with strategy and trouble with the car?

SD: I think that we need to rely on our people to make sure they will do a step in their performance. It is easy to say to people - go home! Then, what do you do? You don't improve the situation for that, so we have to be very rational now. We need to put all the problems one behind the other, because for sure the problems up to now are not acceptable.

I think he is right in what he says here!

Q. Looking at the fuel weights from Saturday, Felipe should have gone in the first stint much longer than the Brawns. Why did he come in so early?

SD: I think that there is an interesting point to see what is the situation with the fuel consumption. It could be an interesting element for the future. I would say, that is it.

Q. You seem to be suggesting that the engine is thirsty?

SD: I don't know, to be honest, we need to see. Looking at the weight of the car, it seems it can be a factor with fuel consumption and driving style. For sure we need to understand that.

[HSJ]

I think the revised F60 is a really, really good car. Pace-wise it isn't all that far behind even the Brawn (at least in Barcelona, and that should be a good indicator for most races this season), although in the race Massa was mainly a roadblock to Vettel, who I think could have won if he had kept clear of Massa in the start. However, I think the car's potential wasn't shown properly yet. The team will need some time to analyze the data to find the optimal setups because the car has changed so much, and will keep on changing some more in the next few races. IMHO Ferrari can challenge for wins very soon now, maybe already in Monaco or Turkey. In fact, if everything had gone just right, they might have challenged for the win already in Barcelona. Nothing has been lost yet, even though people seem to have lost their faith. Sure, any championships will be extremely hard to win now, but not impossible, especially since Brawn and Button, I suspect, will not ultimately be the benchmark, but rather Red Bull and Vettel. You see, I think Brawn will not keep up in the development race and will later on be able to finish only in 5th position or lower, i.e. the minor points finishing positions. Red Bull will probably overtake them sooner or later and Ferrari can overtake even Red Bull.

Whatever, certainly race wins, many of them, are on the cards for Ferrari this season, and that's not bad at all. Unless of course they keep shooting themselves in the foot, but come on, it has to stop sooner or later.

You know, it's funny. I guess so many Ferrari fans have lost all patience and endurance after so many good years, that when things get a little tougher, they have none left. Whereas I and other KR fans long endured crappy years at McLaren, this year is nothing!

Edited by HSJ, 11 May 2009 - 13:01.

[rdebourbon]

Massa used a new gearbox in Barcelona, wonder if they are going to wait till Germany with him..

Getting a 5 place penalty once is actually less penalizing than running a slower car for 3 races. Especially if the new package means they are best. Also they can make up at least 1-2 places at the start.

Thats a really tough call to make. I would only make the call *IF* Ferrari were fighting, and I mean almost guaranteed, to stick the car on the front row in qualifying then I would gamble on it. By being on the front row, the 5 place penalty, at least keeps you in the hunt for a 3-4-5 finish. Otherwise, I would not likely bring it direct to the car risking the penalty.. Unless, the improvement was another large step. I would rather sacrifice up to 2 race weekends at the sharper end of the grid and give it more reliability tested back at the factory..

Reports I have read indicate the new gearbox housing will be ready along with an updated DD diffuser for Turkey, that will be Massa's 3rd race from a 4 race gearbox. Because Kimi retired this weekend, he can get a new gearbox next race, so he would potentially be on the 2nd race of a 4 race gearbox..

[Enzoluis]

I feel that Monaco may end like Monaco 1981, where nobody give a penny for turbo cars in that track and GV won. Maybe the first win of a Kers car?

[jano]

Thats a really tough call to make.

Not at all.
Say the new package will give them an advantage of 0.2 seconds per lap over the package they have now (and it should be at least 0.2 seconds given that it's all about a properly integrated double decker diffuser.

1.) 0.2 seconds/lap = difference between 1st and 4th on the starting grid!
2.) 0.2 x 60 laps = 12 seconds over a race distance. Looking at how close the field is now that might be about a couple positions.

A 0.2 seconds/lap gain means that the points that might be lost because of the 5 place penalty will be made up by the superior pace in maximum 2 races. Much better than losing the chance for 3 races.

[J2NH]

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/75252



I think he is right in what he says here!

QUOTE
Q. Looking at the fuel weights from Saturday, Felipe should have gone in the first stint much longer than the Brawns. Why did he come in so early?

SD: I think that there is an interesting point to see what is the situation with the fuel consumption. It could be an interesting element for the future. I would say, that is it.

Q. You seem to be suggesting that the engine is thirsty?

SD: I don't know, to be honest, we need to see. Looking at the weight of the car, it seems it can be a factor with fuel consumption and driving style. For sure we need to understand that.

And how is it possible that they do not know?
Same engine as last year and with all the data they have to know what their consumption is as well as their competitors. Either the engine is thirsty or KERS is pushing them over the 605 min weight and the starting weights are not a true indication of the fuel on board. They made a leap forward in terms of pace but again not enough and reliablility, a Ferrari trademark, let them down again. Looking back at the 20 races MS went without a mechanical failure perhaps the lack of testing is hurting Ferrari more than anyone else.

New gearbox may push them back to the top but with no testing, other than straightline, how reliable will it be?

[Owen]

I can see Ferrari bagging a few wins this season. Fundamentally the car IS quick enough. Just need to iron out the operational issues.

[Johny Bravo]

Q. You seem to be suggesting that the engine is thirsty?

SD: I don't know, to be honest, we need to see. Looking at the weight of the car, it seems it can be a factor with fuel consumption and driving style. For sure we need to understand that.

Sorry if it's outside the scope of this thread, but isn't Stefano some sort of team boss? He should know a bit about consumption...

[Johny Bravo]

Read the edited first post

It's just that we can miss the "the Ferrari drivers should be replaced by those two guys, the management should be sacked and be replaced by that guy, etc." discussions in here

How could we? However good car we might have technically if it's sabotaged by the team.

The car won't get into Q2 from Q1, unless a driver drives it, and a team sends the driver out to drive it.

But I'll rest it here, just wanted to say that.

[jano]

New gearbox may push them back to the top but with no testing, other than straightline, how reliable will it be?

Engine and gearbox can be bench tested very well, that shouldn't be the biggest problem.

[Johny Bravo]

I can see Ferrari bagging a few wins this season. Fundamentally the car IS quick enough. Just need to iron out the operational issues.

As we saw in Vettel's case , if You can jump a non-kers car, even if it's actually quicker a few tenths, it's possible to keep it behind. (Well You might need to be fueled till the finish line...;) )

So a win should really be possible. But with a slower car Ferrari need to reach the first corner as first.

IF Ferrari could be quicker on pure pace as well, that's another story, nothing will stop Ferrari.

Edited by Johny Bravo, 11 May 2009 - 14:12.