233 replies to this topic

[Ruud de la Rosa]

Silverstone wasn't the most exciting race I ever saw, but the red bull race pace surprised me. They obvious had a very effective update.

My guess for Silverstone is the red bulls on pole, getting beaten in the pit stops by at least one of the brawns. Their race pace is unrivalled. Mclaren could perform even worse than in Turkey because the Kers system is rumoured to be less effective on the Silverstone circuit. I don't have faith in the Ferrari pace, Toyota might have the upper hand, maybe Nico Rosberg will beat them again as well.

Now the circus moves to Germany. I have no idea which team will have the upper hand on this fairly average circuit. Can someone enlighten me?

[brabhamBT19]

is it next sunday or in fortnihgt time?

[stevvy1986]

3 weeks

[Ruud de la Rosa]

20 DAYS, 3 HOURS, 4 MINUTES AND 52 SECONDS BEFORE THE GERMAN GP

to early of course to make any weather predictions

[brabhamBT19]

3 weeks

nice break

[krapmeister]

nice break

Noooooo! It's too long....

[PeteC]

Noooooo! It's too long....

I agree..

I think it'll be the usual Brawn vs Red Bull, with probably a Red Bull winner.

[Andromeda]

Hard to say at this point the weather will play a huge factor. Nürburgring has less high speed corners than Silverstone so that may play into the hands of the Brawn GP team and Brawn GP may introduce some upgrades over the 3 week break for this but I wouldn't count Vettel out though its his home track so he may be pumped for a win there.

Its too hard to say at the moment because its clear Red Bull are the better team in the cooler weather while Brawn GP would excel much better than Red Bull in the hotter tracks like the Hungaroring. Red Bull did appear to dominate the Brawn GP team but I still wouldn't rule them out yet as they may have some upgrades planned to counter the upgrades Red Bull did for Silverstone. Anyone reminded of Deja Vu from last year? Red Bull share similar traits to the McLaren while Brawn GP share similar traits to the Ferrari. (Brawn GP can't get their temperatures up as fast as Red Bull but in hot weather Brawn GP dominate almost completely)

I really dislike it when one team is completely dominant over another team in a race I'm hoping Brawn GP/Button can be on even pace as Vettel/Red Bull for the Nürburgring that makes for really exciting races I fell asleep before halfway through the Silverstone Grand Prix because I found it pretty boring since Vettel just drove away with the win while Button didn't have an answer to his pace.

Lets hope Nürburgring provides more entertainment than Silverstone.

Edited by Andromeda, 22 June 2009 - 11:15.

[Ruud de la Rosa]

Hard to say at this point the weather will play a huge factor. Nürburgring has less high speed corners than Silverstone so that may play into the hands of the Brawn GP team and Brawn GP may introduce some upgrades over the 3 week break for this but I wouldn't count Vettel out though its his home track so he may be pumped for a win there.

Its too hard to say at the moment because its clear Red Bull are the better team in the cooler weather while Brawn GP would excel much better than Red Bull in the hotter tracks like the Hungaroring. Red Bull did appear to dominate the Brawn GP team but I still wouldn't rule them out yet as they may have some upgrades planned to counter the upgrades Red Bull did for Silverstone. Anyone reminded of Deja Vu from last year? Red Bull share similar traits to the McLaren while Brawn GP share similar traits to the Ferrari. (Brawn GP can't get their temperatures up as fast as Red Bull but in hot weather Brawn GP dominate almost completely)

I really dislike it when one team is completely dominant over another team in a race I'm hoping Brawn GP/Button can be on even pace as Vettel/Red Bull for the Nürburgring that makes for really exciting races I fell asleep before halfway through the Silverstone Grand Prix because I found it pretty boring since Vettel just drove away with the win while Button didn't have an answer to his pace.

Lets hope Nürburgring provides more entertainment than Silverstone.

I believe you a correct on the track temperature.

[MikeTekRacing]

it will probably suit ferrari more than the last two (some good traction areas, some good places for kers), so I would say we will see a red car at least trying to fight for the podium

[HoldenRT]

I really like Nurburgring track. Not so much to watch on the TV during the race. But it's similar to Imola. Watching on onboard lap during qualifying is really cool. It's a cool track to drive.

I think there is question marks for Nurburgring and we will have to wait for the answers.

Temperatures - In Bahrain Redbull were quick despite the very high temperatures. According to Button himself, RBR were on Brawn's pace there. However maybe with the latest updates for both cars, it's become more of an issue. It's been talked about alot since Turkey and now Silverstone and maybe there is something in it.

Track characteristics - Definately will suit Brawn more on this track. The three fastest corners aren't even that fast compared to other circuits. 200 km per hour apex speed.

Development updates - It was a substantial update for the RB5 at Silverstone, similar to Ferrari's at Barcelona. New nose, wheelbase, engine cover, diffuser etc. The diffuser is now wider like the other cars. The wheelbase was lengthened to give more airflow to the diffuser. It could be the x factor, that makes Redbull quicker on all circuits, not just fast corner ones. However, Brawn could rush in a new update, so it's impossible to predict.

You would think by the margin that Redbull had at Silverstone, that even if they are slower or Brawn quicker, that it will be close fight. But you would have thought that after Turkey and look what happened.

It's a naturally understeering track with the camber of some of the corners, and if you have a car that understeers other circuits, it can cause some problems here.

Williams deserve a big for the last two races. Williams were third fastest team at Silverstone. Williams could be on for something decent at Nurburgring, maybe an outside chance of a podium if trouble hits the drivers infront. McLaren will be better and might be able to get some points. It's hard to say with Ferrari or Toyota, they seem up and down race to race. Temperature wise, Williams seem more like Redbull. And Toyota and Ferrari seem more like Brawn, liking it when it's hot. So if it was really hot, maybe Toyota/Ferrari would be ahead of Williams.

Brawn/Redbull
Williams
Ferrari/Toyota/McLaren
Renault

Would be a rough prediction but we will just have to wait and see.

[Ruud de la Rosa]

I really like Nurburgring track. Not so much to watch on the TV during the race. But it's similar to Imola. Watching on onboard lap during qualifying is really cool. It's a cool track to drive.

I think there is question marks for Nurburgring and we will have to wait for the answers.

Temperatures - In Bahrain Redbull were quick despite the very high temperatures. According to Button himself, RBR were on Brawn's pace there. However maybe with the latest updates for both cars, it's become more of an issue. It's been talked about alot since Turkey and now Silverstone and maybe there is something in it.

Track characteristics - Definately will suit Brawn more on this track. The three fastest corners aren't even that fast compared to other circuits. 200 km per hour apex speed.

Development updates - It was a substantial update for the RB5 at Silverstone, similar to Ferrari's at Barcelona. New nose, wheelbase, engine cover, diffuser etc. The diffuser is now wider like the other cars. The wheelbase was lengthened to give more airflow to the diffuser. It could be the x factor, that makes Redbull quicker on all circuits, not just fast corner ones. However, Brawn could rush in a new update, so it's impossible to predict.

You would think by the margin that Redbull had at Silverstone, that even if they are slower or Brawn quicker, that it will be close fight. But you would have thought that after Turkey and look what happened.

It's a naturally understeering track with the camber of some of the corners, and if you have a car that understeers other circuits, it can cause some problems here.

Williams deserve a big for the last two races. Williams were third fastest team at Silverstone. Williams could be on for something decent at Nurburgring, maybe an outside chance of a podium if trouble hits the drivers infront. McLaren will be better and might be able to get some points. It's hard to say with Ferrari or Toyota, they seem up and down race to race. Temperature wise, Williams seem more like Redbull. And Toyota and Ferrari seem more like Brawn, liking it when it's hot. So if it was really hot, maybe Toyota/Ferrari would be ahead of Williams.

Brawn/Redbull
Williams
Ferrari/Toyota/McLaren
Renault

Would be a rough prediction but we will just have to wait and see.

great post, exactly what I like! You mentioned the pace of Red Bull versus Brawn in Bahrain. I've read Brawn had some cooling problems there. Maybe that affected their pace. With their cooling problem solved they started to love the warm weather.

[stevvy1986]

As with any race at the Nurburgring, I reckon turn 1 at the start will have an impact (Nurburgring in this configuration always makes me certain something will happen at turn 1 on lap 1, same with Montreal). Also given where it is, accurate weather forecasts are never too easy to find, as it seems to have its own micro climate, where out of nowhere, with no indication on forecasts or radars, a sudden shower can turn up, and obviously the temperature is also hit and miss, sometimes cold, sometimes steaming hot. Personally I reckon RBR will JUST have the edge there. My gut feeling is they can carry the pace from Silverstone through to some of the following tracks, but that Brawn will be alot closer, and in qualifying in particular I think it'll be very close between Brawn and RBR (fuel corrected). Brawn though are easier on their tyres it seems, so if its warmer (and dry obviously), they may be able to take advantage of the tyres getting into their operating window alot quicker, and not trash the tyres too much.

[stevvy1986]

great post, exactly what I like! You mentioned the pace of Red Bull versus Brawn in Bahrain. I've read Brawn had some cooling problems there. Maybe that affected their pace. With their cooling problem solved they started to love the warm weather.

In Bahrain I think they basically had to try and avoid being caught behind other cars, as that could have pushed them over the edge, clear air was what they needed for as long as possible.

[GNT4ME]

I am sure that I read somewhere (can’t remember where) that after the upgrades at Barcelona, Germany was the next GP that Brawn would have major upgrades ready for their car.
Having said that, I am also sure I read that Brawn claimed to have sorted out their tyre warming problems after they lost in Shanghai…..
Oh well...it may just be that dreaming is free..................

[jonpollak]

Gee..I can't wait so I've set up camp there NOW

Jp

[Ruud de la Rosa]

I am sure that I read somewhere (can’t remember where) that after the upgrades at Barcelona, Germany was the next GP that Brawn would have major upgrades ready for their car.
Having said that, I am also sure I read that Brawn claimed to have sorted out their tyre warming problems after they lost in Shanghai…..
Oh well...it may just be that dreaming is free..................

Interview with Button. Confirmed the Brawn likes the hotter temperatures. Also mentions something about their brakes. Any more info on this?
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/76481

"So they have made a big improvement for sure Red Bull. They have got a lot of new parts on the car and they are obviously working for them. But there were other things that worked for them. This is a circuit that is very high speed, probably not our best part of the car.

"Also it is cold, and we cannot get the tyres in the working range, so we are losing out there. And when you go to hot circuits, we don't just get them working but Red Bull struggles with the tyre which helps us as well. And there is hardly any braking here.

"I don't know if you watched the last few laps when I was behind [Nico] Rosberg, but the braking on our car is the strongest point at the moment. We are stronger than the Red Bulls under braking, but there is no braking here. You never hit the pedal that hard here, and that is another reason why we cannot get tyre temperature.

[Kooper]

20 DAYS, 3 HOURS, 4 MINUTES AND 52 SECONDS BEFORE THE GERMAN GP

to early of course to make any weather predictions

Nonsense. 50% chance of rain...

[Ruud de la Rosa]

Nonsense. 50% chance of rain...

and what percentage chance of snow?

[Kooper]

and what percentage chance of snow?

50% of course

[Ruud de la Rosa]

50% of course

so no dry race!

[FPV GTHO]

Anyone reminded of Deja Vu from last year? Red Bull share similar traits to the McLaren while Brawn GP share similar traits to the Ferrari. (Brawn GP can't get their temperatures up as fast as Red Bull but in hot weather Brawn GP dominate almost completely)

Tyre wise, maybe. The general performance outlook is still alot different though. Whilst Red Bull for example might have similar tyre handling characteristics to McLaren from the past 2 years, their strong aero and high speed form is more reminiscent of Ferrari of late whilst Brawn's strong low speed form is reminiscent of McLaren.

[Kooper]

so no dry race!

50% dry race

[H2H]

I really like Nurburgring track. Not so much to watch on the TV during the race. But it's similar to Imola. Watching on onboard lap during qualifying is really cool. It's a cool track to drive.

I think there is question marks for Nurburgring and we will have to wait for the answers.

Temperatures - In Bahrain Redbull were quick despite the very high temperatures. According to Button himself, RBR were on Brawn's pace there. However maybe with the latest updates for both cars, it's become more of an issue. It's been talked about alot since Turkey and now Silverstone and maybe there is something in it.

Track characteristics - Definately will suit Brawn more on this track. The three fastest corners aren't even that fast compared to other circuits. 200 km per hour apex speed.

Development updates - It was a substantial update for the RB5 at Silverstone, similar to Ferrari's at Barcelona. New nose, wheelbase, engine cover, diffuser etc. The diffuser is now wider like the other cars. The wheelbase was lengthened to give more airflow to the diffuser. It could be the x factor, that makes Redbull quicker on all circuits, not just fast corner ones. However, Brawn could rush in a new update, so it's impossible to predict.

You would think by the margin that Redbull had at Silverstone, that even if they are slower or Brawn quicker, that it will be close fight. But you would have thought that after Turkey and look what happened.

It's a naturally understeering track with the camber of some of the corners, and if you have a car that understeers other circuits, it can cause some problems here.

Williams deserve a big for the last two races. Williams were third fastest team at Silverstone. Williams could be on for something decent at Nurburgring, maybe an outside chance of a podium if trouble hits the drivers infront. McLaren will be better and might be able to get some points. It's hard to say with Ferrari or Toyota, they seem up and down race to race. Temperature wise, Williams seem more like Redbull. And Toyota and Ferrari seem more like Brawn, liking it when it's hot. So if it was really hot, maybe Toyota/Ferrari would be ahead of Williams.

Brawn/Redbull
Williams
Ferrari/Toyota/McLaren
Renault

Would be a rough prediction but we will just have to wait and see.

Yeah a good post. There are three big question marks. How much of the RB5's margine can they carry over to the slower course? Is there a large Brawn update on the way? How will the weather be?

Edited by H2H, 22 June 2009 - 17:43.

[Peter Perfect]

One thing the non-KERS teams will have to do lengthen their top gears. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard drivers complaining that they can't overtake the (KERS) car in front because they're hitting the limiter.

[FlashMaster]

33 % dry / 33% rain / 33% snow

Was there at Rock am Ring three weeks ago and saw Korn at 5°C. Considering that the rest of Germany had at least 10°c+ everything is possible

[Ruud de la Rosa]

One thing the non-KERS teams will have to do lengthen their top gears. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard drivers complaining that they can't overtake the (KERS) car in front because they're hitting the limiter.

but with a longer last gear they will be too slow to overtake.;)

[nudger1964]

One thing the non-KERS teams will have to do lengthen their top gears. I've lost count of the number of times I've heard drivers complaining that they can't overtake the (KERS) car in front because they're hitting the limiter.

mclaren seem to be pretty set on dumping kers, so i guess it will be easier to lap them from now on

[SpeedFanatic]

mclaren seem to be pretty set on dumping kers, so i guess it will be easier to lap them from now on

20+ million euros thrown at the trash can.

Edited by SpeedFanatic, 23 June 2009 - 07:26.

[krapmeister]

20+ million euros throw at the trash can.

I think it would be safe to say that it was a lot more than that....

[danii]

but with a longer last gear they will be too slow to overtake.;)

But without rev-limiter imposed by regs, each car will have its own limited revs due to mecanical failure. No difference from my point of view.

[Ruud de la Rosa]

But without rev-limiter imposed by regs, each car will have its own limited revs due to mecanical failure. No difference from my point of view.

Engines can overrev for some time. The mechanical boundary isn't a fixed number.

[danii]

Engines can overrev for some time. The mechanical boundary isn't a fixed number.

I see, but overrev is the same for the car in front and the back one.
The same situation as using kers for defending position or the push to pass in nascar.
In my opinion, at silverstone the problem was the wind. every time in every race in any competition with such a wind changes in speed and direction, you will always hear drivers complaining about taller gear hitting the limiter.

But in normal conditions this is just another variable to consider when trying to maximize the "speed vs top speed" ratio. (like rear wing, engine mapping, ...)

Just an opinion.

[hunnylander]

Just to fancy about...

[chhatra]

Just to fancy about...

I dunno about you guys but i'm hoping for a deluge like the 07 race. One of the best races for me especially the last few laps. Can anyone give me any hope that McLaren aren't going to be completely useless there.

[hunnylander]

I dunno about you guys but i'm hoping for a deluge like the 07 race. One of the best races for me especially the last few laps. Can anyone give me any hope that McLaren aren't going to be completely useless there.

The track has more low speed corners, than high speed corners. So it'll emphasize the weakness of the car less. New wings, new sidepods, new diffuser are planned, but may delay.

[raiseyourfistfor]

Nurburgring will definitely favor Brawn. The RB5 can't handle slow speed corners and there are plenty of them there.

[Yellowmc]

Ferrari could well be the dark horse for a victory.

[Scotracer]

Gee..I can't wait so I've set up camp there NOW

Jp

I lol'd

[lbennie]

Nurburgring will definitely favor Brawn. The RB5 can't handle slow speed corners and there are plenty of them there.

red bull were quicker than brawn over sector 3 at silverstone too

they seem to be untouchable on allcorner types now.

could have all been track temperature though

[Yellowmc]

red bull were quicker than brawn over sector 3 at silverstone too

they seem to be untouchable on allcorner types now.

could have all been track temperature though

....and a compromised setup. When you have a high speed deficiency you will sacrifice some of your slow corner strength to stay competitive for the rest of the lap.

[Emlyn]

AUTOSPORT Live doesn't open up again until Monday, so I thought I would mention here in the meantime that the early forecasts for the Nurburgring weekend are woeful. A lot of time to go yet of course, but do be aware that if the current long-range forecasts (as of today, Thursday 2nd) play out, then a Fuji-esque / Italy 2008-type weekend is likely. We'll see how it develops.

Something for us all to ponder over the weekend as we look forward to the racing again.

[Ruud de la Rosa]

AUTOSPORT Live doesn't open up again until Monday, so I thought I would mention here in the meantime that the early forecasts for the Nurburgring weekend are woeful. A lot of time to go yet of course, but do be aware that if the current long-range forecasts (as of today, Thursday 2nd) play out, then a Fuji-esque / Italy 2008-type weekend is likely. We'll see how it develops.

Something for us all to ponder over the weekend as we look forward to the racing again.

looks like it's going to be fun

[D.M.N.]

AUTOSPORT Live doesn't open up again until Monday, so I thought I would mention here in the meantime that the early forecasts for the Nurburgring weekend are woeful. A lot of time to go yet of course, but do be aware that if the current long-range forecasts (as of today, Thursday 2nd) play out, then a Fuji-esque / Italy 2008-type weekend is likely. We'll see how it develops.

Something for us all to ponder over the weekend as we look forward to the racing again.

http://www.accuweath...-...RG&metric=1

Doesn't look too bad, although I'd definitely prefer rain.

[Henrytheeigth]

I wonder if Hamilton remembers what happened to him in ah can't remember if it was prac or qual in 2007 there? Surely it shall be in the back of his mind to a degree, on the other hand he is driving a completely different car, but one never knows what's around the corner of course. I'm sure all will be fine.

[Owen]

Recent races have been frankly dire in terms of 'entertainment' value. Looking for a turn around here, dare I say it, some overtaking.

[H2H]

While we don't know if it rains or not, the weather should be almost certainly rather cold. I recon that this plays into the hands of Red Bull and especially Vettel and is particulary bad for Button's driving style in a Brawn which suffers cold temperatures.

[hunnylander]

I wonder if Hamilton remembers what happened to him in ah can't remember if it was prac or qual in 2007 there? Surely it shall be in the back of his mind to a degree, on the other hand he is driving a completely different car, but one never knows what's around the corner of course. I'm sure all will be fine.

Lewis Hamilton - Onboard Crash at Qualifying Session Nürburgring 2007

[Henrytheeigth]

Lewis Hamilton - Onboard Crash at Qualifying Session Nürburgring 2007

Ah thanks mate, yea qual it was! Nasty huh, I don't know he and other drivers hold onto the steering wheel like that though. One can snap a wrist or two like that.

[Yellowmc]

I'm pretty sure other drivers let go of the wheel once they've lost it and kow they're going into the wall.

I remember watching that and seeing him pump his legs, I wondered whether or not it was serious.