969 replies to this topic

[Youichi]

Where is this report that you speak of? 29 million per race would nearly be half of the population!

That report is probably spin.

The FOM figures used count everyone who sees any footage of the race, so if you see the result on the 9 o'clock news, and then again on the 10 o'clock news you count as 2 viewers.

[Max!]

Most FOM/FIA numbers are cumulative per race ie every part of a grand prix weekend that gets televised has it's viewing figures added to the total ... ie like for FIA/FOM Quali Viewers + Race Viewers + Race Rerun Viewers + Highlights viewers = Viewers for X GP

You're right but it still shows that the UK is not very important for the global market. Also the interest in F1 is lower than in the other European countries.

[engel]

Interest is a fickle thing ... the figures quoted are from 05, smack in the middle of Alonso-mania in spain for eg, hence the very high viewing figures.

Anyways, you can't really gauge marketing potential from figures alone ... most marketing people tell me they only care for a specific demographic (18 to under 50, varies by country) so if you 're getting a good slice of that demographic you 're a good TV product.

Edited by engel, 21 July 2009 - 21:59.

[Slartibartfast]

You're right but it still shows that the UK is not very important for the global market. Also the interest in F1 is lower than in the other European countries.

FOM only care about viewing figures because they care about exposure for sponsors/advertisers. In that respect, the UK viewing figures as a total are less relevant than the spending power and predisposition towards F1 sponsors of those viewers.

[Max!]

FOM only care about viewing figures because they care about exposure for sponsors/advertisers. In that respect, the UK viewing figures as a total are less relevant than the spending power and predisposition towards F1 sponsors of those viewers.

Of course. That's why the UK market is even less relevant. Building up brand awareness etc make much more sense in emerging countries like Brazil, India or China.

[Max!]

Interest is a fickle thing ... the figures quoted are from 05, smack in the middle of Alonso-mania in spain for eg, hence the very high viewing figures.

Anyways, you can't really gauge marketing potential from figures alone ... most marketing people tell me they only care for a specific demographic (18 to under 50, varies by country) so if you 're getting a good slice of that demographic you 're a good TV product.

I can't find solid figures for the Spanish market, but I do recall that after Schumacher retired the German public kept watching F1. So yes, a local hero does grow the audience (as shown in Germany and in Spain) but once hooked on the sport they keep watching.

[jez6363]

Qualifying will always be lower than the race because it's not as interesting (usually).

I look forward to the day when this statement is once again unequivocally true...

[Alexis*27]

Who cares about ratings on Saturday? I am fine with qualifying. A sprint race will only dilute my anticipation of the race proper on Sunday where all the question marks become answers.

I guess this is the kinda mindless ratings chasing we'll see if the car manufacturers have their way with controlling F1.

Well that's the attitude we have at the moment. Ratings can be a reflection of excitement - if nobody watches on Saturday isn't that a measure that it's not as interesting as it could be?

Imagine a sprint race if it was wet on the Saturday and dry on the Sunday. Twice the excitement!

Expand your horizons! Most people like action, not the anticipation of it.

[D.M.N.]

I look forward to the day when this statement is once again unequivocally true...

I must admit I find qualifying more exciting, because it seems more intense - anything can happen, you just don't know who will get knocked out and stuff...

[Dalton007]

U.K. may not be the racing country that is made out to be, but it plays a pivotal role when you consider that it is a piece of the European racing community. Where do most drivers come from? Europe. Where is the biggest audience? Europe.
Only South America and Japan can be considered important markets outside of the E.U.
America is inbred, it doesn't quite have the worldwide pedigree of motorsport like F1. Indycars and Nascar don't translate well outside of the States and Canada thus not given the coverage it perhaps deserves.

[irish_sean69]

Qualifying will always be lower than the race because it's not as interesting (usually). Which begs the question - with two slots on two days - why doesn't F1 have two races?

• Saturday: half hour qualifying, half hour sprint race
• Sunday: full GP

Ratings would jump on Saturdays. They've always had this idea that qualifying is just something that has to be done, rather than an integral part of the show. Whilst it's format has been tweaked, people will always prefer racing to cars driving and a stopwatch.

Your a tool at this point in time qualy is way more exiting than the racing

[ivanalesi]

Sponsors care also about buying capacity, which part of the market you touch. If they have a premium brand or some cheap brand. If you've got 5 mln. w/o job, education and so on, then you've got 500k upmarket audience... if you're Walmart kind of company - you go with the 5mln. audience, if you're a premium brand - you go with the 500k upmarket.
F1 and racing has lots of upmarket, so it's audience is more valuable. Obviously Brazil, China or India's audience isn't as valuable as the numbers show. Not many people in India can buy a second hand car ;)

[Ross Stonefeld]

America is inbred, it doesn't quite have the worldwide pedigree of motorsport like F1. Indycars and Nascar don't translate well outside of the States and Canada thus not given the coverage it perhaps deserves.

Much like F1 has a limited following outside of Europe. Europe is no more 'the world' than North America is.

[Max!]

Sponsors care also about buying capacity, which part of the market you touch. If they have a premium brand or some cheap brand. If you've got 5 mln. w/o job, education and so on, then you've got 500k upmarket audience... if you're Walmart kind of company - you go with the 5mln. audience, if you're a premium brand - you go with the 500k upmarket.
F1 and racing has lots of upmarket, so it's audience is more valuable. Obviously Brazil, China or India's audience isn't as valuable as the numbers show. Not many people in India can buy a second hand car ;)

Yes, that's exactly why China is much more interesting than the UK. See the quotes below for an impression:


This year, Nissan skipped Detroit and attended the Chinese event in April. Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Porsche all unveiled new-vehicle models in Shanghai.
Sales reached 872,900 vehicles in June - the largest increase in more than three years.
Carmakers worldwide are looking to China to help drive revenues as they struggle with a slump in demand in North American and other markets.
General Motors recently reported that sales in China surged 38% in the first half compared with a year ago, while Ford reported first-half sales in China were up 14%.

Compare this to the UK:

Thanks to the car scrappage policy the figures released by the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) showed 176,264 vehicles were sold in June, up from 134,858 in May.

And don't think this is about cheap cars:

BMW said Monday that sales at its core BMW brand in China were up 46% on the year in June at 8,033 cars, fueled by strong demand for its X5 and X6 models
Compare this to the UK which only sold 3622 of BMW 3-series in june.

So the Chinese market is already six times as big as the UK market and growing at an enormous rate. There are more Maybachs sold to China than to the UK etc. Where would you like to advertise your premium brand?

Edited by Max!, 22 July 2009 - 12:19.

[pitflaps]

F1 isn't bloody tin-tops: qualifying is qualifying, the race is the race. Honestly: they'll be playing 20 over cricket next...

[Brodequin]

Thanks for the post D.M.N. Great info!

[D.M.N.]

So the Chinese market is already six times as big as the UK market and growing at an enormous rate. There are more Maybachs sold to China than to the UK etc. Where would you like to advertise your premium brand?

While I agree with your post as a whole - does China have any interest in motor sport? Any compared to UK? No.

The grandstands at Shanghai demonstrate this - I'd prefer to see packed out stands rather than empty stands in places like China - even if the car industry is booming there.

[bigginge]

BMW said Monday that sales at its core BMW brand in China were up 46% on the year in June at 8,033 cars, fueled by strong demand for its X5 and X6 models
Compare this to the UK which only sold 3622 of BMW 3-series in june.

Do you not see the obvious flaw in your figures. 8,033 Cars. 3,622 3-Series Models. You realise that BMW also make 1,5,6,7, X3,X5,X6, Z4 and all the M's?

Yes, BMW are interested in China (and other emerging markets) because they provide growth, but currently they are nowhere near their biggest market. The majority of cars sold in China are made by local manufacturers.

Edited by bigginge, 22 July 2009 - 14:24.

[ForeverF1]

While I agree with your post as a whole - does China have any interest in motor sport? Any compared to UK? No.

The grandstands at Shanghai demonstrate this - I'd prefer to see packed out stands rather than empty stands in places like China - even if the car industry is booming there.

Completely agree.

With the turnout shown at the GPs it would appear that the sales figures are not fueled by the interest in motor sport and F1 in particular.

[Owen]

Do you not see the obvious flaw in your figures. 8,033 Cars. 3,622 3-Series Models. You realise that BMW also make 1,5,6,7, X3,X5,X6, Z4 and all the M's?

Yes, BMW are interested in China (and other emerging markets) because they provide growth, but currently they are nowhere near their biggest market. The majority of cars sold in China are made by local manufacturers.

You've got profit margins also. They will make good money on the UK prices. Not sure if the same can be said in China.

[Alexis*27]

Your a tool at this point in time qualy is way more exiting than the racing

Are you for real? Feck off Father Ted.

[DOF_power]

Much like F1 has a limited following outside of Europe. Europe is no more 'the world' than North America is.

European "exports" favor better in the rest of the world vs. american "exports".

China, Brazil and Japan are stronger F1 markets then the US and have a bigger viewership vs. population (even excluding the cumulative non-sense). And India wasn't mentioned.

Football and Formula 1 are more exported then NFL and NASCAR.



Initiative Sports Futures numbers.

[Max!]

Do you not see the obvious flaw in your figures. 8,033 Cars. 3,622 3-Series Models. You realise that BMW also make 1,5,6,7, X3,X5,X6, Z4 and all the M's?

Yes, BMW are interested in China (and other emerging markets) because they provide growth, but currently they are nowhere near their biggest market. The majority of cars sold in China are made by local manufacturers.

I do realize that, but the three series is by far the best selling BMW in the UK.
The sales figures for BMW UK in the first quarter of 2009 were 30.222 versus 18.254 in China, BUT with growth in China versus diminishing figures in the UK AND according to BMW the costly X5 and X6 are doing extremely well in China. Based on these figures it's reasonable to expect China to be a bigger market for BMW than the UK in 2009.

So where would you advertise? In a shrinking UK market which is almost saturated or in a growing Chinese?

[D.M.N.]

I do realize that, but the three series is by far the best selling BMW in the UK.
The sales figures for BMW UK in the first quarter of 2009 were 30.222 versus 18.254 in China, BUT with growth in China versus diminishing figures in the UK AND according to BMW the costly X5 and X6 are doing extremely well in China. Based on these figures it's reasonable to expect China to be a bigger market for BMW than the UK in 2009.

So where would you advertise? In a shrinking UK market which is almost saturated or in a growing Chinese?

Are we talking about cars we drive in everyday life? No.
Are we talking about motor racing? Yes.

Is China a country interested in motor racing? Clearly not.

[bigginge]

Are we talking about cars we drive in everyday life? No.
Are we talking about motor racing? Yes.

Is China a country interested in motor racing? Clearly not.

But for better or worse, are BMW/Toyota/etc/etc using F1 to sell cars? Yes.

Edited by bigginge, 22 July 2009 - 15:48.

[bigginge]

I do realize that, but the three series is by far the best selling BMW in the UK.
The sales figures for BMW UK in the first quarter of 2009 were 30.222 versus 18.254 in China, BUT with growth in China versus diminishing figures in the UK AND according to BMW the costly X5 and X6 are doing extremely well in China. Based on these figures it's reasonable to expect China to be a bigger market for BMW than the UK in 2009.

So where would you advertise? In a shrinking UK market which is almost saturated or in a growing Chinese?

Actually I agree with you, I just didn't like your evidence - as you've just detailed the UK market is bigger for BMW than China *at the moment*, and in the medium term it's very likely that the Chinese market for BMW will eclipse that of the UK.

Based on these figures it's reasonable to expect China to be a bigger market for BMW than the UK in 2009.

Based on the fact that in the first quarter UK sales were 66% higher than China? In a massive recession? Weak.

Edited by bigginge, 22 July 2009 - 15:58.

[Max!]

Actually I agree with you, I just didn't like your evidence - as you've just detailed the UK market is bigger for BMW than China *at the moment*, and in the medium term it's very likely that the Chinese market for BMW will eclipse that of the UK.


Based on the fact that in the first quarter UK sales were 66% higher than China? In a massive recession? Weak.

If the 44 percent Chinese market growth from June 2008 to 2009 as reported by BMW is anything to go by it will not be the medium term but this year. And you ignored the market share of the more expensive models in China.

The thing is that manufacturers want F1 to be in China and I showed why. They sell cars for a profession and use F1 as a tool. I don't know if the Chinese are interested in F1, but the television figures suggest so. The FOM figures will be inflated, but the 119 million viewers are a sign that they want to watch it. They just don't want to visit the circuit at the moment.

[bigginge]

And you ignored the market share of the more expensive models in China.

You haven't supplied any evidence that they are significantly better than the UK, that's why.

The thing is that manufacturers want F1 to be in China and I showed why. They sell cars for a profession and use F1 as a tool. I don't know if the Chinese are interested in F1, but the television figures suggest so. The FOM figures will be inflated, but the 119 million viewers are a sign that they want to watch it. They just don't want to visit the circuit at the moment.

I agree. Quite frankly, given the cost of tickets I'm suprised people visit the circuits anywhere!

Edited by bigginge, 22 July 2009 - 16:17.

[bigginge]

To return to the main topic - UK Viewing figures....

D.M.N. I don't know how much work this would be for you, but would you be able to update your graphs with outliers for the the max and min so we can see if the spread has changed? I would be interested to see how the gap between most and least watched race has changed - maybe it would indicate which circuits are popular?

Edited by bigginge, 22 July 2009 - 16:23.

[Max!]

You haven't supplied any evidence that they are significantly better than the UK, that's why.



I agree. Quite frankly, given the cost of tickets I'm suprised people visit the circuits anywhere!

All I have is a quote: 'BMW AG (BMW.XE) said Monday that sales at its core BMW brand in China were up 46% on the year in June at 8,033 cars, fueled by strong demand for its X5 and X6 models

As BMW apparently doesn't give publish regional market profits that's all we have, but as a sign of the times I would say these figures are a clear direction. Another indication is that the Shanghai 2009 show was used to introduce new cars by BMW, Mercedes and Porsche, while Detroit was a dull show.

[D.M.N.]

To return to the main topic - UK Viewing figures....

D.M.N. I don't know how much work this would be for you, but would you be able to update your graphs with outliers for the the max and min so we can see if the spread has changed? I would be interested to see how the gap between most and least watched race has changed - maybe it would indicate which circuits are popular?

Sorry, but I don't think I'd be able to do that - because I don't have all the ratings. The only seasons I have a complete picture for (including Asian re-runs) are 1999, 2002 and 2008. The lowest rating I can see in front of me for a particular race is 1.66 million for a re-run airing of the 1995 Pacific Grand Prix. Next is 1.8 million for the 2006 French Grand Prix live.

However, to copy a response I did earlier in the thread:

05.22m - Portugal *no races since 1996
04.74m - Great Britain
04.38m - Luxembourg *only two races
04.18m - Monaco
04.07m - Europe
03.76m - San Marino
03.73m - Germany
03.73m - Singapore *only one race so far
03.70m - Belgium
03.69m - South Africa *only two races
03.65m - Italy
03.62m - Hungary
03.60m - Austria
03.48m - Spain
03.32m - France
03.29m - Bahrain
02.75m - Turkey

That's just for the European daytime races. Out of the current crop - as expected, Britain and Monaco are near the top - prestige of course helps. Europe seems quite popular as well - although that has been all over the shop in terms of month. I can't do Asian races as I'm missing dozens of live ratings, which dents the average by at least a million. Hope the above helps though.

[bigginge]

Sorry, but I don't think I'd be able to do that - because I don't have all the ratings. The only seasons I have a complete picture for (including Asian re-runs) are 1999, 2002 and 2008. The lowest rating I can see in front of me for a particular race is 1.66 million for a re-run airing of the 1995 Pacific Grand Prix. Next is 1.8 million for the 2006 French Grand Prix live.

That's a shame, I know how frustrating collating this kind of information can be!

That's just for the European daytime races. Out of the current crop - as expected, Britain and Monaco are near the top - prestige of course helps. Europe seems quite popular as well - although that has been all over the shop in terms of month. I can't do Asian races as I'm missing dozens of live ratings, which dents the average by at least a million. Hope the above helps though.

And of course 'Europe' has also been at a number of different circuits over the years.

[D.M.N.]

That's a shame, I know how frustrating collating this kind of information can be!

I am finding ratings as I go along - I'm building a picture of how the ratings are doing. I'll update this thread throughout as the season progresses with how '09 fares up against other seasons.

And of course 'Europe' has also been at a number of different circuits over the years.

True.

[Ensign]

Interesting that none of the US Grand Prix races at Indianapolis show up, even in the top ten 'American' races. That would include Murray's last broadcast at Indy 2001. Of course they might have got a top rating for the first Indy GP in 2000, for which there was a lot of hype, except ITV chose not to air it live on their main channel - I think ITV 2 had it live - and instead showed it around 11.30 pm.

[Ensign]

The ratings for the UK show it to be a good motorsport market. F1 is much bigger as a TV event in the UK than all motorsports combined in the US, NASCAR included.

In English-speaking Canada ratings are up in recent years yet still only between 175,000 and 200,000 watch each race. (The population of English Canada about 25 million compared to 60 million in the UK).

In the early part of this decade I recall Grandprix.com (I think) showing the average ratings in Europe. In Britain the number of viewers was double that of France but considerably lower than in Italy - all three countries having roughly the same population.

[D.M.N.]

Interesting that none of the US Grand Prix races at Indianapolis show up, even in the top ten 'American' races. That would include Murray's last broadcast at Indy 2001. Of course they might have got a top rating for the first Indy GP in 2000, for which there was a lot of hype, except ITV chose not to air it live on their main channel - I think ITV 2 had it live - and instead showed it around 11.30 pm.

The reason 2001 isn't in there is because the title had already been won. 2000 would have got a high rating - but ITV as you say sent the live race off to ITV2. The repeat aired at 22:45 that evening and only got 2.75 million I think off the top of my head.

It didn't help either that ITV put qualifying in a graveyard slot.

[jez6363]

America is inbred, it doesn't quite have the worldwide pedigree of motorsport like F1. Indycars and Nascar don't translate well outside of the States and Canada thus not given the coverage it perhaps deserves.

I lived in the USA for 3 years - the reputation americans have in other countries is not very fair. However, they do package their sports very differently, which doesn't translate well to europe. But don't confuse the packaging with the sport itself.

I spent a happy year a few years back, following Indy, and it was very good. This year I have also watched a few - and it was pretty good too. But the american coverage is really not to my taste.

I think Indy would be a lot more popular in Europe, if it was covered like the BBC cover F1 - and with the picture quality we get in F1 (even tho not HD). I am sure the same is true in reverse, with F1 - but its harder to create the show that they may want, to really get into F1 in the USA.

Still, they have some nice things in Indy coverage - the continuous banner over the top, so you always know how people are doing is particularly good (albeit in cheesy graphics).

They have more overtaking than F1 - at least in the ones I have seen recently.
The strategy also applies - they have two types of tyres etc - but their coverage really doesn't follow it.

If the BBC covered Indy, I bet it would be much more highly regarded, at least in the UK.

[ivanalesi]

Yes, that's exactly why China is much more interesting than the UK. See the quotes below for an impression:

So the Chinese market is already six times as big as the UK market and growing at an enormous rate. There are more Maybachs sold to China than to the UK etc. Where would you like to advertise your premium brand?

This is different, it wasn't what I was refering to. What I meant was, X number of Chinese viewers are not worth as much as X number of UK viewers. You may have more BMW's selling in China, but they are 2 billion people country. So if you have to choose between X UK viewers and 3X Chinese viewers, it's easy. In other words, the quality and ability to spend cash for the UK viewer is much, much higher than those in China or India, and this plays a role.

[bigginge]

I lived in the USA for 3 years - the reputation americans have in other countries is not very fair. However, they do package their sports very differently, which doesn't translate well to europe. But don't confuse the packaging with the sport itself......

.....If the BBC covered Indy, I bet it would be much more highly regarded, at least in the UK.

I agree the reputation Americans have is in many cases undeserved, however there are two reasons that it will never be a serious sport in the UK:

1) It's just another spec series
2) It's totally irrelevant to people in the UK because events are only held in the US (although a superstar British driver in Indy could have a draw)

It's not really fair to compare domestic sports (Indy/NASCAR) to F1 in terms of worldwide coverage.

[Ross Stonefeld]

European "exports" favor better in the rest of the world vs. american "exports".

China, Brazil and Japan are stronger F1 markets then the US and have a bigger viewership vs. population (even excluding the cumulative non-sense). And India wasn't mentioned.

Apart from a stronghold in Brazil, the majority of the F1 fanbase is EU.

[D.M.N.]

I agree the reputation Americans have is in many cases undeserved, however there are two reasons that it will never be a serious sport in the UK:

1) It's just another spec series
2) It's totally irrelevant to people in the UK because events are only held in the US (although a superstar British driver in Indy could have a draw)

Besides, F1 and MotoGP are the only two real motorsports in the UK that draw ratings. MotoGP regularly gets 1 million viewers - anything else is under 1 million:

- BTCC about 300,000 to 600,000
- 125cc and 250cc on Eurosport about 100,000 to 200,000
- GP2 about 150,000
- A1 GP about 50,000 to 150,000
- NASCAR/IndyCar about 20,000 to 100,000

[saudoso]

So just bring the season finale back to Brazil, I'm OK with that.

[ivanalesi]

D.M.N., what about BTCC in the heyday? Also what about British Superbikes? Actually where do you find this information?
saudoso - considering the track, the time, the atmosphere(not last year), it's really the best place for the finale!

Edited by ivanalesi, 23 July 2009 - 11:28.

[D.M.N.]

D.M.N., what about BTCC in the heyday? Also what about British Superbikes? Actually where do you find this information?

BTCC in its heyday probably about 1/2 million. No idea about British Superbikes.

The information isn't available widely in public I'm afraid - unless you spend time looking for the information. Some of the stuff I've got from research with others - asking others, looking on other forums where posted, ratings posted on this forum etc...

[Rinehart]

DMN, well played.

To my mind, the overwhelming conclusion is that TIME is the most important factor. Your more likely to gain £7m + viewers if you start a race at 6pm on Sunday - away from the UK traditions of Sunday lunch and football. Not all of those Brazilian GP's were title deciders.

[ivanalesi]

Thanks for the effort D.M.N.!
Absolutely, but on the other they get prime-time in Asia and there is the future.
In the summer, Sunday afternoon is the perfect time for everything but watching TV ;)

[D.M.N.]

Thanks for the effort D.M.N.!
Absolutely, but on the other they get prime-time in Asia and there is the future.
In the summer, Sunday afternoon is the perfect time for everything but watching TV ;)

The BBC so far at the start of Summer has held up very well. The only race to have dipped under 4m is Monaco where Britain had an unusual hot spell in May. I suspect Hungary and Europe may drop under 4m though before it goes back up for the final stages of the year.

[DOF_power]

Apart from a stronghold in Brazil, the majority of the F1 fanbase is EU.

To my knowledge China has the biggest viewership figures, but it's low vs. the population. Besides it, Russia and India could provide growth in the future.
I also remember reading article witch stated that in South Africa in was a top watched sport.


I'll search for it.

[Ensign]

TV viewing figures for China should be taken with a grain of salt. Initiative Sports Futures estimated that during the 1998 World Cup FIFA's numbers for Chinese viewers were five times greater than they actually were. A Premier League match in 2007 between Arsenal and Man U was supposedly watched by one billion people largely thanks to China. However, it later turned out that the Chinese channel showing the match only had 20,000 subscribers and the number of viewers worldwide was between 8-10 million! The American basketball league, the NBA, regularly claims hundreds of millions of viewers for single NBA games. It's all nonsense put out by the sports leagues themselves that then gets repeated by journalists who are either lazy or just shills for the sport.

Another trick is to obfuscate the difference between audience potential with actual viewing audience.

[DOF_power]

TV viewing figures for China should be taken with a grain of salt. Initiative Sports Futures estimated that during the 1998 World Cup FIFA's numbers for Chinese viewers were five times greater than they actually were. A Premier League match in 2007 between Arsenal and Man U was supposedly watched by one billion people largely thanks to China. However, it later turned out that the Chinese channel showing the match only had 20,000 subscribers and the number of viewers worldwide was between 8-10 million! The American basketball league, the NBA, regularly claims hundreds of millions of viewers for single NBA games. It's all nonsense put out by the sports leagues themselves that then gets repeated by journalists who are either lazy or just shills for the sport.

Another trick is to obfuscate the difference between audience potential with actual viewing audience.

I know that, it's Initiative Sports Futures numbers that I'm talking about.