30 replies to this topic

[roadshop]

Was ist denn das fûr ein ding?



Poul Erik

[Russell Burrows]

Was ist denn das fûr ein ding?



Poul Erik

Easy for you to say.....

[roadshop]

What I meant to say: What is this?
Sorry to have spread this topic all over the place - first time try.

[fil2.8]

What I meant to say: What is this?
Sorry to have spread this topic all over the place - first time try.

Thats ok roadshop , it takes a bit of getting used to , and hi

[Russell Burrows]

Yes, Hello there and welcome...no idea I'm afraid.

[LamboNZ]

Jennifer Lopez' bike?

[roadshop]

Yes, she would look good on that one, from behind.
I will give you a hint: First works-bike in 50cc racing!!??

Poul Erik

[fil2.8]

Well , I guess our 50cc chums know , 'cause I don't think I do ...............mmmmmmmmmm Magalutti ? or simular

[roadshop]

Well, the question is on the 50cc thread as well, I think they are thinking.
Think german.
Sorry to be a pain in the ass. Poul Erik

[fil2.8]

Well, the question is on the 50cc thread as well, I think they are thinking.
Think german.
Sorry to be a pain in the ass. Poul Erik

Tomos ?? was that German ??

[roadshop]

No, I have a Tomos, it does not look like this at all, it`s Slovenian.
This one is german, but not well known.
Not their own engine though.
Poul Erik

[Leif A Nielsen]

No, I have a Tomos, it does not look like this at all, it`s Slovenian.
This one is german, but not well known.
Not their own engine though.
Poul Erik

Hi Poul Erik,

Welcome to the Forum, don't really know anything about the bike , but are you from Denmark?

Leif

[roadshop]

Hi, Leif

Yes, I`m danish
You were one of the fast guys on TZ`s. I remember.
I rode 50cc Minarelli and 125 Yam. and MT 125 Honda.
Now Ì´m going to do some classic racing before I fall over.
Har du det godt derovre?

Best regards
Poul Erik Oversø

[Rennmax]

Victoria Avanti ??

[roadshop]

Sorry. no
But german
small factory.

[fil2.8]

I guess not BMW then !!!

[T54]

I am really surprised that no one appears to know... because there are so many here who are virtual walking encyclopedias! And I believed that I actually knew something.
JLO was a German manufacturer of motorcycle engines and from 1957 on, especially moped engines as the motorcycle market had collapsed. But they apparently never built complete bikes from what I recall, and this is a JLO engine alright, that appears mounted in what I believe and guess is a modified Meister frame. This appears to date from 1959. The JLO engine was rather slow, producing a mere 1.2HP. Fitted with the 16 to 18mm Dell'Orto carb and this definitely not-period expansion-chamber exhaust that dates from many years later, it might get (but barely) out of its own way unless someone went in there and made the holes quite bigger. I believe that the fuel tank is also from another motorcycle (Itom?).
This also could be the whole product of one of those very small moped companies, but certainly not derived from a street machine, unless highly modified.
JLO and Sachs were the most popular engines on the incredible number of German-built mopeds in the 1950s, about two DOZENS of them! I believe that one survives today but JLO does.
So OK, I gave it my best guess, whotizzit?

Edited by T54, 07 September 2009 - 00:42.

[HEMEYLA]

... because there are so many here who are virtual walking encyclopedias!

And off we go ........... Click.

[T54]

Ok, so I was a bit off, but not that much...

Now I could be wrong again, but I would like to see a PERIOD picture of this bike, because I am almost absolutely sure that it did not look quite like that.

This is a STOCK Gritzner Monza, very much like a Kreidler Florett:



So I am pretty sure that the bike shown in the first post is a hand-built special using components of the Monza, and not an actual production bike. Am I wrong?

Edited by T54, 07 September 2009 - 03:39.

[roadshop]

See post #836

[roadshop]

That is post#836 on the Fast racing "moped" topic.

[HEMEYLA]

The rider looks like Manfred Woll ........... Click.

Also Claus Klüglich raced a Gritzner/Kayser Monza with 3 gear JLO engine in 1963 on the Berlin Avus track.

And my old friend Henk van Beek won his first ever race at Tubbergen 1963 on a homemade bike with JLO engine.

[jcbc3]

... like a Kreidler Florett:
...

I should hope NOT. (Joke for the Danes coming up):

Køb en Kreidler
Se hvad den fejler
Hvis den intet fejler
er det ikke en Kreidler

(Buy a Kreidler
check what's wrong
if nothings wrong
it's not a Kreidler)

[roadshop]

Yes, it is Manfred Voll testing the restored machine in 1992.
Works-riders at the time was Kurt Deris, Franz Geissinger and Willi Metzger,
who by the way, had a proteze-left leg.
The maschine newer stood a chance against the Kreidlers, but had many good placings.
It evolved from 3hp/8.000r, 3-speed in 59 to 7hp/10.000r, 4-speed in 62.
In 1962 they experimentid with a 6-speed gearbox from a Zündapp-gelände.
One wonders why they did not use the Zündapp-engine.

[roadshop]

Everywhere I wrote Zündapp, I meant Sachs, off course, sorry.

jcbc3
You are way too far out, both in danish and in english.
Is that because you are a Minarelli-fan!?

[jcbc3]

That's why I wrote 'joke' and not QFT.

My brother was the proud owner of a Kreidler and very satisfied with it. The verse was just something we chanted to tease.

[T54]

When I said "like a Kreidler", I meant of course strictly as a street cruiser on looks. No doubt that a Florett simply demolished any other period moped or mokick!
Now 7HP in 1962 from the JLO engine? Sounds wildly optimistic to me. That would have made it a possible GP winner... the Suzuki that was world champ that year was barely pushing 9HP.

[HEMEYLA]

Euro Cup 50cc 1961, Franz Geissinger 23 in the championship with JLO, 2 times 6th place, St.Wendel and Opatija ...... Click.

[roadshop]

jcbc3
What I wrote, was also with a smile on my face.

T54
The 7hp is only what I have read, revs even rose to 10.500 on the last engine.
The pictures shows the original restored bike. But, you are right, the
exhaust-pipe looks a bit modern.
I have some period pictures, but they only shows the later versions
which had twin-port exhaust.
I will post the pictures when my son returns, he is the one who knows how to do it.
The tank is a "stretched" Monza tank.
PE

[HEMEYLA]

Remember that Erich Wolf had already resonant expansion pipes on the DKW racers in 1952.

[T54]

The 7hp is only what I have read, revs even rose to 10.500 on the last engine.
The pictures shows the original restored bike. But, you are right, the
exhaust-pipe looks a bit modern.

That is often the case in many restorations and I deplore it.

Remember that Erich Wolf had already resonant expansion pipes on the DKW racers in 1952.

Yes of course, but even in 1961 when Walter Kaaden was the incontestable finest two-stroke tuner in the world, no one had expansion chambers looking like that. This is a modern restoration using modern technology at least for the exhaust. I have seen many such restorations on many 50cc racers with much more modern exhausts, the owners of restored and much evolved Itoms hardly looking like they really used to being the biggest culprits as they attempted to modernize their bikes to be more competitive in vintage racing.

The most evolved Itoms I have ever seen in period were the two 1961 works-supported machines built for the French distributor to be driven by Jean-Pierre Beltoise and Jean-Claude Serre, and Serre who was quite an engineer, reckoned that they possibly had as much as 5HP and that without a new alloy cylinder, that was as much as they would ever get. The minute the CR110s showed up, those things became obsolete, and the minute the Derbi production racers showed up, the CR110 could only win if the Derbis broke down, which of course happened often. This was years before Van Veen began making his own machines from Kreidler engines of course and made it easy for everyone to have plenty of reliable power at a reasonable cost..

As far as power and at "world" (well, european at the time anyway) level, I have recently read all over websites some pretty fantastic figures but in 1960, the fastest works-supported Kreidlers, that were the incontestable fastest 50cc in the world then, had just about 7.5HP. In 1961, this did not change much for the European Cup where the works Kreidlers dominated, with hardly more power but now more usable because of the complex 12-speed cluster and better handling and brakes than anything around. The following year and for the first world championship, the fastest were the Derbis and Suzukis with 9HP (official number for the Suzuki), the Kreidlers having not progressed much and being overwhelmed by the Japanese machines. Honda claimed 8HP for their works RC110s. These are real figures. Everything else is well wishing.
Things got serious and past 10HP in 1963 and reached 15HP by 1966, but the figure of 19HP advanced by some for the Suzuki RK67 are simply too optimistic and Susuki always claimed no more than 15HP. Honda claimed 13HP for their 1966 twin and 32HP for their 5-cylinder 125cc derived from the 50cc.

The standard JLO 3-speed engine was rated at 1.5HP by JLO, like most mokick engines at the time (1960) except for a few "super sport" like the Itom and Franco-Morini top of the line engines. The Kreidler engine was a "touring" engine but was of course one of the best then, with slightly over 3HP.
The first Derbi production racers of 1963 had 7HP and they were faster than all the home-built Kreidlers then. Sure not as reliable of course. Only the works Kreidlers with the rotary valve and of course the Suzukis were faster than those cheaply built but rather fast machines in the day.

It is a lot of fun to reminisce the old days, and 1959 to 1961 documentation is not that easy to get anymore, but this nostalgia forum cannot be a case of "the Older I am, the faster I was".
Let's restore the old bikes the way they were, not the way of modsports.
Regards,

T54