60 replies to this topic

[V8 Fireworks]

Deploying the safety car out of pit lane beyond the finish line of race is a strange one.

You'd have thought a red flag would be more logical.

Of course, with a red flag Lewis would have kept the 6pts on a countback to the previous lap.

Did the stewards delibrately chose the safety car as they didn't want to "reward" Lewis with the points for dropping it?

No bias either way here, just wondering.

[engel]

Deploying the safety car out of pit lane beyond the finish line of race is a strange one.

You'd have thought a red flag would be more logical.

Of course, with a red flag Lewis would have kept the 6pts on a countback to the previous lap.

Did the stewards delibrately chose the safety car as they didn't want to "reward" Lewis with the points for dropping it?

No bias either way here, just wondering.

Full course yellow and safety car freezes the race, it's enough

[wewantourdarbyback]

Full course yellow and safety car freezes the race, it's enough

QFT

[MegaManson]

He crashed through driver error why should he be rewarded for that with 6 points via a red flag ?

[CaptnMark]

I suspect a Ferrari driver would be

[bankoq]

Did the stewards delibrately chose the safety car as they didn't want to "reward" Lewis with the points for dropping it?

No bias either way here, just wondering.

So every driver who struggles to keep position can crash deliberately to stop the race and keep more points? How stupid is that?

[Muppetmad]

He crashed through driver error why should he be rewarded for that with 6 points via a red flag ?

The same reason why a red flag was put out for Alonso's crash in the 2003 Brazilian Grand Prix.

I'd say the track was equally dangerous in both incidents. There was clearly lots of debris on the course because of Hamilton's accident, and drivers had to slow down a lot to avoid it. Alonso crashed and got a podium, so one could argue, why not Lewis?

I'm not saying I agree with this, btw, it's just something that randomly popped into my head.

[V8 Fireworks]

Why do the stewards think a SC board is okay though, when the SC was past the finish line? The 'pure' full course yellow condition doesn't really exist in F1 rules does it?

My concern is that stewards are usually adverse to deploying SC or red flag on last laps - there are many precedents.

If a car goes into gravel trap near racing line that would cause it in earlier laps, instead they usually avoid deploying the SC on last few laps and just leave it there (for the "show" you would guess)... of course here there was so much debris that they had to do something.

Red flag seems the more standard protocol since it's the last lap and they need everyone to stop as the track is covered in debris IMO.

[cheapracer]

He crashed through driver error why should he be rewarded for that with 6 points via a red flag ?

Interesting point - I have always been of the opinion that if you are the reason the race is stopped you shouldn't be eligible for finish classification.

An example is Nissan winning Bathurst 1992 after the race had to be red flagged because of rain and accidents on lap 144 but the Nissan was one of the cars that caused/needed the decision to be made and wasn't running then (it had 3 wheels and was in a ditch). The results reverted back to lap 143 and the Nissan was in the lead on that lap.

[100cc]

"Safety car" is the right choice. Red flag would've accomplished nothing that the SC didn't. As soon as SC is out everyone know that they will cruise to the finish - with a red flag they would cruise to the pits. A red flag would've had the same result safety-wise with the added confusion of the count back for the results.

[Clatter]

Full course yellow and safety car freezes the race, it's enough

Freezes positions, but we all know that they still go at near racing speed to close the gaps as quickly as possible. I couldn't understand the logic of calling a SC on the last lap, but hadnt really thought about a red flag at the time.

[Clatter]

"Safety car" is the right choice. Red flag would've accomplished nothing that the SC didn't. As soon as SC is out everyone know that they will cruise to the finish - with a red flag they would cruise to the pits. A red flag would've had the same result safety-wise with the added confusion of the count back for the results.

Red flag would have had them cruise to the pits rather than do another unnecessary lap thru the debris. More I think about it a red flag would have been the safest option.

[Nobody]

I don't recall ever seeing an instant 'red flag' first, it's always been the SC first, even when drivers have been gravely injured.

[Just waiting]

Interesting point, but if the car had been blocking the track, then clearly.....but the debris was less of a problem than the famous RS crash at Indy, and no safety car was there

[Seanspeed]

We've seen crashes like that, that didn't result in a red flag. I agree a red flag would have been more 'safety conscious', but what I think they should do is simply change the rules about 'going back one lap' to determine results. Maybe add in a clause about somebody who crashes(and causes the red flag) being classified DNF and not getting included in the count back.

[pRy]

Brazil 2003.

Brazil was not an instant red.

Webber crashed first, and that brought out the safety car. (Just like today).

Then Alonso slammed into the debris and caused an even bigger crash, that brought out the red.. and rightly so, the track was virtually blocked with debris and tyres.

If anyone is sat thinking "today was just as bad as brazil" you need to go to youtube and refresh your memories.

Edited by pRy, 13 September 2009 - 14:30.

[Monad]

Really, who cares. No need to talk about this.

[G. Piezano]

I think the SC was appropriate in this case because it was a single car accident. Sure it's a bit odd to deploy it "after" the finish line, but had the accident happened on the 1st, 10th or 47th lap it would have brought out a SC and not a red flag. I think red flags should be reserved for multi-car accidents.

[rage2]

The same reason why a red flag was put out for Alonso's crash in the 2003 Brazilian Grand Prix.

I'd say the track was equally dangerous in both incidents. There was clearly lots of debris on the course because of Hamilton's accident, and drivers had to slow down a lot to avoid it. Alonso crashed and got a podium, so one could argue, why not Lewis?

I'm not saying I agree with this, btw, it's just something that randomly popped into my head.

Actually, Webber crashed there, which brought out the safety car. When Alonso crashed into the debris, that's when the red flag came out. No different than the SC decision today.

[Muppetmad]

Brazil was not an instant red.

Sorry, my mistake. I thought it was just waved yellows through there when Webber crashed, which was why Alonso was going so fast.

Edited by Muppetmad, 13 September 2009 - 14:50.

[nneads]

A red flag would have just caused more controversy. And highlight another way a driver can cheat for the team. Which is not the case here. But it still would show another weakness in the rules. The last item F1 needs right now.

[sreevishnu]

the race leaders were already on last 1/3 of lap....then there is no point in red flagging

[pippin]

There was a lot of debris I have to say, but all drivers avoided it OK and in the circumstances I think the safety car did the job just fine.

[KWSN - DSM]

Neither.

Yellow flag.

Unless the track is blocked, no need for a safety car.

Yellow flags is enough.

[stevvy1986]

Nothing wrong with the decision to bring out the Safety Car despite it being the last lap. Red flag would have been pointless, SC will have meant the drivers will have had to slow down suitably, and frozen the field. In terms of Alonso in Brazil 03, the Safety Car had been called out anyway, Alonso then went and crashed, and the track (after Alonso crashed) was fully blocked with cars, wheels from the cars, tyres from the tyre barriers, debris, and they obviously decided it was just too dangerous not to red flag it, even though it meant Alonso got points. SC was the right decision today though, no need for a red flag, the cars were able to get through safely at slow speed.

[postajegenye]

No, I don't think they should reward the driver who caused the crash - if this happened halfway through the race, they wouldn't have red-flagged it either (they didn't even red-flag the Canadian GP in 2007) so why should they at the end of the race?

[Dragonfly]

A funny and at the same time hypocritical thread.

[postajegenye]

If anyone is sat thinking "today was just as bad as brazil" you need to go to youtube and refresh your memories.

Agreed, in Brazil there were two heavily damaged cars (and an injured driver, although it was not known at the time of the red flag decision), a completely destroyed tyrewall, some wheels and a huge amount of debris on the track , much worse than this race.

[rsherb]

They have three options: local yellow, safety car, or red flag. SC is the correct decision as the debris was significant and the car was in a dangerous position. It wasn't bad enough for a red flag. Once the SC is deployed it effectively is a full course yellow, with no further racing allowed. And with it near the end of the race, there is no one rushing to the pits for fuel or tyres.

I don't think they consider which drivers benefit from calling a red flag versus a SC when making the decision.

[stevvy1986]

I don't think they consider which drivers benefit from calling a red flag versus a SC when making the decision.

The RD has far more important things to worry about than who'll benefit from a red flag and who'll benefit from a SC.

[HSJ]

Alonso crashed and got a podium, so one could argue, why not Lewis?

Well, they really should have given Alonso a DQ and race ban rather than a podium, because he caused the red flag due to reckless driving. Amazing how some think such actions, like Lewis' today, should be rewarded.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Interesting point - I have always been of the opinion that if you are the reason the race is stopped you shouldn't be eligible for finish classification.

An example is Nissan winning Bathurst 1992 after the race had to be red flagged because of rain and accidents on lap 144 but the Nissan was one of the cars that caused/needed the decision to be made and wasn't running then (it had 3 wheels and was in a ditch). The results reverted back to lap 143 and the Nissan was in the lead on that lap.

Another example is Rich Vogler winning his last race that way, after his fatal crash on the last lap.

[Frank Tuesday]

Although I am generally opposed to the safety car, the big thing here is that it is deployed consistently. Had that crash occurred on lap 1,7,12,31 or 52, or at any other track, the safety car would have been called out. There was nothing there that would have resulted in a red flag at any other point in the race, so why on the last lap?

[stevvy1986]

Although I am generally opposed to the safety car, the big thing here is that it is deployed consistently. Had that crash occurred on lap 1,7,12,31 or 52, or at any other track, the safety car would have been called out. There was nothing there that would have resulted in a red flag at any other point in the race, so why on the last lap?

Definitely agree. Had the tyres in the tyre barrier come across and blocked the track like Alonso 2003 (and it isn't a terribly wide piece of track anyway, and only has gravel on the other side) then a red flag wouldbe suitable, especially if it wasn't the last lap. Other than that, or another car crashing into Lewis or the debris and blocking the track, there'd be nothing to suggest a red flag would be required.

[jesee]

The safety car was right on the money here. There was no need to red flag the race, as the driver was safe and no obstruction to traffic.

[Just waiting]

Another example is Rich Vogler winning his last race that way, after his fatal crash on the last lap.

that is worse than a dq

[LB]

Interesting point - I have always been of the opinion that if you are the reason the race is stopped you shouldn't be eligible for finish classification.

An example is Nissan winning Bathurst 1992 after the race had to be red flagged because of rain and accidents on lap 144 but the Nissan was one of the cars that caused/needed the decision to be made and wasn't running then (it had 3 wheels and was in a ditch). The results reverted back to lap 143 and the Nissan was in the lead on that lap.

The Nissan actually crashed on (its) lap 145 and its second impact was after the red flag was already out. Results did go back to 143 though.

[Fabs]

Deploying the safety car out of pit lane beyond the finish line of race is a strange one.

You'd have thought a red flag would be more logical.

Of course, with a red flag Lewis would have kept the 6pts on a countback to the previous lap.

Did the stewards delibrately chose the safety car as they didn't want to "reward" Lewis with the points for dropping it?

No bias either way here, just wondering.

No bias.. you are just wondering if the stewards deliberately chose to take away Lewis "well deserved points" since the red flag was more logical decision

Poor Lewis.. political decisions took away his points even though red flagging the race was more logical..

Yeah.. right..

[se7en_24]

Well, they really should have given Alonso a DQ and race ban rather than a podium, because he caused the red flag due to reckless driving. Amazing how some think such actions, like Lewis' today, should be rewarded.

Who does?

[ForeverF1]

The safety car is indeed a full course yellow.

Flag Marshals always show the SC board with a waved yellow flag, often, it is with multiple yellow flags and is shown at all Marshal's positions around the circuit.

[scheivlak]

Who does?

There was a hint of it in the opening post.
Red flag meant 6 points for Lewis.

[Tenmantaylor]

Neither.

Yellow flag.

Unless the track is blocked, no need for a safety car.

Yellow flags is enough.

Tyres, suspension arms and carbon fibre shards all over the track on the wrong side of a blind highspeed corner? Glad youre not going to be taking Charlie Whitings job anytime soon.

[KWSN - DSM]

Tyres, suspension arms and carbon fibre shards all over the track on the wrong side of a blind highspeed corner? Glad youre not going to be taking Charlie Whitings job anytime soon.

Yellow flags are taught from the very first license a driver ever gets.

Act according to what the flags tell you.

Basic race track behaviour.

[Tenmantaylor]

Yellow flags are taught from the very first license a driver ever gets.

Act according to what the flags tell you.

Basic race track behaviour.

Why have the safety car if drivers are so good at heeding yellow flags? Could it be because of the too many to name occasions where drivers have ploughed into debris causing further accidents not to mention the fatal and near fatal debris related accidents in the last couple of months?

Take your glasses off, you are not cool.

[wewantourdarbyback]

Yellow flags are taught from the very first license a driver ever gets.

Act according to what the flags tell you.

Basic race track behaviour.

Right, so we'll have the marshals dodging the cars while they try and clear the wreckage that was all over the track.


Thank christ you're nowhere near race control.

[Cool Beans]

A car has a minor crash so we red flag the race? Really? This wouldn't have anything to do with you wanting to erase Hamilton's own mistake would it? No, of course not! He binned it and didn't get any points. That's racing for you. Red flags is a procedure set in place to save lives, not excuse drivers for their mistakes. No question about it, the yellow flags were the only sane solution.

[Clatter]

A car has a minor crash so we red flag the race? Really? This wouldn't have anything to do with you wanting to erase Hamilton's own mistake would it? No, of course not! He binned it and didn't get any points. That's racing for you. Red flags is a procedure set in place to save lives, not excuse drivers for their mistakes. No question about it, the yellow flags were the only sane solution.

The other side of the coin is that yellow flags were the only option that would not change the result, but the red flag would have been safer. Given the stage of the race I think they could have avoided the cars running through the debris again, albeit slowly, on the cool down lap. However I can agree that it would have been wrong if LH had benefitted from it.

[wewantourdarbyback]

A car has a minor crash so we red flag the race?

Much as I agree it shouldn't be a red flag, there's no way that was a minor crash.

[KWSN - DSM]

Why have the safety car if drivers are so good at heeding yellow flags? Could it be because of the too many to name occasions where drivers have ploughed into debris causing further accidents not to mention the fatal and near fatal debris related accidents in the last couple of months?

Take your glasses off, you are not cool.

Safety car is an overreaction being used way to much.

Yellow flags are fine for most incidents. Including the one today.

[plastik2k9]

By no means was it a minor crash, but it certainly was not worthy of a red flag. A safety car was the correct decision, as it provokes the required reaction from drivers when it is deployed.. double yellows means they're cautious but still conscious of race position, safety car basically means, racing has been fully suspended and the pressure is off, be prepared for debris and marshalls on the track.