6542 replies to this topic

[MinT]

And why is Hamilton afraid of Kimi?

Who said he was - other than a few muppets on the internet ??

[FormerF1Driver]

Finished in the points in every race bar one, which he was knocked out of.

Irrelevant, the discussion was about Button handling pressure during the second half of the season, in which Barrichello clearly outperformed him.

[FormerF1Driver]

Who said he was - other than a few muppets on the internet ??

He very well could be. After all who says he isnt? Apart from a few Muppets on the inernet.

[Captain Tightpants]

He very well could be. After all who says he isnt? Apart from a few Muppets on the inernet.

By my rough calculations, Button scored 24 points since Turkey, Barrichello 39. Not much in it.

[Rinehart]

It certainly is the 'Silly Season'!

[Captain Tightpants]

He very well could be. After all who says he isnt? Apart from a few Muppets on the inernet.

He pretty much says so himself. After all, he claimed Button was underperforming in the second half of the season without considering the fact that the Brawn was nolonger the best car on the grid, when any F1 driver would know that cars are frequently updated and developed over the course of a season, and that Button's form was not so much a prouct of underperformance, but of McLaren and Red Bull briding the gap in performance.

[FormerF1Driver]

He pretty much says so himself. After all, he claimed Button was underperforming in the second half of the season without considering the fact that the Brawn was nolonger the best car on the grid, when any F1 driver would know that cars are frequently updated and developed over the course of a season, and that Button's form was not so much a prouct of underperformance, but of McLaren and Red Bull briding the gap in performance.

who... Hamilton??

[Captain Tightpants]

who... Hamilton??

No you. For someone who would like us to think that you're a former Formula One racing driver, you have a fundamental lack of understanding about how the teams develop the cars, something they have been doing - ad which has been an important part of car consistency - for a very long time.

[egg1980]

He pretty much says so himself. After all, he claimed Button was underperforming in the second half of the season without considering the fact that the Brawn was nolonger the best car on the grid, when any F1 driver would know that cars are frequently updated and developed over the course of a season, and that Button's form was not so much a prouct of underperformance, but of McLaren and Red Bull briding the gap in performance.

I really don't see the point in this debate rumbling on and on and on and on.

Button's always had his detractors who said that he would never win a race, he proved them wrong, they said he would never win another race, he proved them wrong, they said he would never string it together to win a championship, he proved them wrong too.

It's time to get over it now, just act like men, admit you were wrong and get on with it.

[Clatter]

Irrelevant, the discussion was about Button handling pressure during the second half of the season, in which Barrichello clearly outperformed him.

Rubens has managed to score only 9 points more than Button over the second half of the season and only managed to finish in front on 4 occasions to JB's 5. I think clearly outperformed is an exaggeration borne out from people who only watch qualifying or don't appreciate that the points are awarded on race day.

[FormerF1Driver]

No you. For someone who would like us to think that you're a former Formula One racing driver, you have a fundamental lack of understanding about how the teams develop the cars, something they have been doing - ad which has been an important part of car consistency - for a very long time.

The Brawn was still the car to have over the whole season. There were periods where Red Bull just plain started to suck, like Valencia, Monza and they only really got up to speed again in Singapore. But Brawn were always there or theirabouts. They had a consistently quick car

You are still not seeing my point though, The competition from other teams really has nothing to do with this debate as i was comparing Button to Barrichello in the Same care for the second half of the season where Rubens outscored, out qualified, and got two wins to Buttons zero.

[Captain Tightpants]

You are still not seeing my point though, The competition from other teams really has nothing to do with this debate as i was comparing Button to Barrichello in the Same care for the second half of the season where Rubens outscored, out qualified, and got two wins to Buttons zero.

And that would be an excellent point to make ... if the World Championship was decided solely by a driver's results in the second half of the season.

[egg1980]

The Brawn was still the car to have over the whole season. There were periods where Red Bull just plain started to suck, like Valencia, Monza and they only really got up to speed again in Singapore. But Brawn were always there or theirabouts. They had a consistently quick car

You are still not seeing my point though, The competition from other teams really has nothing to do with this debate as i was comparing Button to Barrichello in the Same care for the second half of the season where Rubens outscored, out qualified, and got two wins to Buttons zero.

Button slaughtered Rubens in the first half though, so I don't see what your point it.
Whether it was pressure or the upgrade/downgrade package that Brawn introduced, that didn't suit Button's style, it really is irrelevant, Button was the better driver over the course of the season and that's really all that matters.

[cardin]

By my rough calculations, Button scored 24 points since Turkey, Barrichello 39. Not much in it.

Let me see 24, 39. That's 60% more points. This rewritting of history is getting silly.

[OSX]

Button is the star now at Brawn for the time being anyway. He will not go to McLaren - even if offered the chance - because he would get beaten by Hamilton and would end being another Kovalainen. Not that it will be easy for Jenson at Brawn next season with Rosberg but at least he's in familiar and supportive surroundings.

[Captain Tightpants]

Let me see 24, 39. That's 60% more points. This rewritting of history is getting silly.

Well, allow me to counter with the stats for the first half of the season: Button had 66 after Turkey, Barrichello 35. Almost twice as many.

But, at the end of the day, what really matters is how many more points he has at the end of the season, howver they ere obtained. As of Interlagos, Button has 89 whereas Barrichello has just 72. The gap between them is larger than it has been since about Valencia.

[GhostR]

Actually, the best stat to look at is the average points per race that the second placed driver would need to score to beat Button. This stat tracked through the season shows that Button's advantage was almost exclusively getting bigger as the season went on. He was always doing enough to stay sufficiently out in front despite the problems he had.

Unlike others (Vettel, Webber and to a lesser extent Rubens) Button always seemed able to steal a point or few from his bad races. The others had an off race and they scored nothing.

#Edit to add: Button also had an incrediable knack of always seeming to beat the driver who was closest to him in the title chase. If that was Barri, he beat Barri. If it was Vettel, he outscored Vettel. If it was Webber, he clearly did a deal with Satan and had Mark's title chase completely shut down ;).

Edited by GhostR, 23 October 2009 - 16:44.

[Archybald]

Actually, the best stat to look at is the average points per race that the second placed driver would need to score to beat Button. This stat tracked through the season shows that Button's advantage was almost exclusively getting bigger as the season went on. He was always doing enough to stay sufficiently out in front despite the problems he had.

Unlike others (Vettel, Webber and to a lesser extent Rubens) Button always seemed able to steal a point or few from his bad races. The others had an off race and they scored nothing.

This isnt exactly the "average points per race the second placed driver would need to score to beat button" but its got the average points won per race by jenson and rubens (i probabaly should have included vettel) rounded to the nearest tenth (scroll down for averages)

Race #  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16Jenson 10  5  6 10 10 10 10  3  4  2  2  0  8  4  1  4Rubens  8  2  5  4  8  8  0  6  3  0 10  2 10  3  2  1    TotalRace #  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16Jenson 10 15 21 31 41 51 61 64 68 70 72 72 80 84 85 89 Rubens  8 10 15 19 27 35 35 41 44 44 54 56 66 69 71 72AVG PointsRace #  1   2   3    4    5   6   7   8   9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16Jenson 10 7.5   7  7.7  8.2 8.5 8.7   8 7.6   7 6.5   6 6.2   6 5.7 5.6 Rubens  8   5   5  4.8  5.4 5.8   5 5.1 4.9 4.4 4.9 4.7   5 4.9 4.7 4.5

Im beginning to think i have too much time on my hands (though it didnt take long)

(Had to use the codebox because the BB ruined my formatting grr! lol)

*edit* Quick note ... if the averages have been done somewhere else could someone tell me so i can hit my head against a wall thx in advance

Edited by Archybald, 23 October 2009 - 15:27.

[egg1980]

Actually, the best stat to look at is the average points per race that the second placed driver would need to score to beat Button. This stat tracked through the season shows that Button's advantage was almost exclusively getting bigger as the season went on. He was always doing enough to stay sufficiently out in front despite the problems he had.

Unlike others (Vettel, Webber and to a lesser extent Rubens) Button always seemed able to steal a point or few from his bad races. The others had an off race and they scored nothing.

As the voice of reason you're wasting your breath, the same people who are saying he doesn't deserve the championship (what a ridiculous notion) are the same people who said he'd never win a race, the same people who said he would never win his second race and the same people who then started saying - ah yes, but he'll never win the title. Rather than just admit they were wrong in the first place, they're now having to resort to this... pathetic.

[Psymon]

Actually, the best stat to look at is the average points per race that the second placed driver would need to score to beat Button. This stat tracked through the season shows that Button's advantage was almost exclusively getting bigger as the season went on. He was always doing enough to stay sufficiently out in front despite the problems he had.

Unlike others (Vettel, Webber and to a lesser extent Rubens) Button always seemed able to steal a point or few from his bad races. The others had an off race and they scored nothing.

Here, in graph form, is the average number of points needed after each race to overhaul Button for all three drivers who have held second place in the championship - ie Barrichello, Vettel and Webber.



The average number of points needed by the second placed driver dropped only once - after the British GP - all other races saw an increase in the relative gap.

Anyway... more on topic... in a way I hope that it takes as long as possible for all the seats to be filled... we've got to have something to discuss over the winter, especially with the limited amount of testing there will be!

Edited by Psymon, 23 October 2009 - 16:55.

[cardin]

Well, allow me to counter with the stats for the first half of the season: Button had 66 after Turkey, Barrichello 35. Almost twice as many.

But, at the end of the day, what really matters is how many more points he has at the end of the season, howver they ere obtained. As of Interlagos, Button has 89 whereas Barrichello has just 72. The gap between them is larger than it has been since about Valencia.

No need to counter with anything. I was just commenting on your dismissal of the difference in points in the second half. If you think there's nothing in a difference of 15 points in half a season, I wonder what you make of a difference of 17 points in almost the whole season. I'm well aware that there's no second half champion and that Jenson was much better than Rubens in the first half. He's the champion and he deserves it but I've been reading a few comments here on this BB trying to portray Jenson as somebody he is not. He's a good driver but he has clear limitations and I suspect there are quite a few drivers who could have the job done with the equipment he had this year.

[Captain Tightpants]

Button hoping to stay at Brawn, stresses manager
23 October 2009

Richard Goddard, the manager of Jenson Button, has firmly said that the new World Champion is hoping to renew his contract with the Brawn team, contrary to reports that the Englishman could join predecessor Lewis Hamilton at McLaren in 2010.

With Button having sealed his first world title in Brazil on Sunday, the Frome man is yet to finalise a deal for next season as, naturally, the World Champion aims for a pay rise after taking a cut of £5m - to a total of £3m - ahead of this season. Goddard, however, stresses that reports are no more than just that.

"Brawn could have sorted Jenson out weeks ago and none of this would be going on," he told the BBC. "We've been trying to agree terms with them. He's made it clear that he wants to stay and, had they agreed a contract, there would be no speculation; the press will speculate that anyone with a free seat next year will be offering Jenson a drive - he's displayed his great talent in a good car this year.

"That speculation won't die until Brawn offer him new terms; a lot of quality seats may still be available, so it's down to Brawn to make us an offer, but this stuff certainly did not stem from us."

Source

[Archybald]

This whole story was invented to hide the real secret!

Lewis hamilton going to brawn! With lucia badoer heading to McLaren to take seat 1!


*edit* I figure when i start making posts like this its time to go to bed lol

Edited by Archybald, 24 October 2009 - 00:47.

[Conny_Mary]

This whole story was invented to hide the real secret!

Lewis hamilton going to brawn! With lucia badoer heading to McLaren to take seat 1!


*edit* I figure when i start making posts like this its time to go to bed lol

The silliest of the silly season.

[Music Lover]

Button slaughtered Rubens in the first half though, so I don't see what your point it.
Whether it was pressure or the upgrade/downgrade package that Brawn introduced, that didn't suit Button's style, it really is irrelevant, Button was the better driver over the course of the season and that's really all that matters.

Really? How many car related issues had Rubens? (clutch to mention one...)

[Magnus]

Rubens has managed to score only 9 points more than Button over the second half of the season and only managed to finish in front on 4 occasions to JB's 5. I think clearly outperformed is an exaggeration borne out from people who only watch qualifying or don't appreciate that the points are awarded on race day.

Its 15 points and thats not factoring in the points rubens lost through bad luck, like start failure at turkey which cost him 8 points, gearbox change at singapore, clutch problems at start of spa, and puncture at brazil. Without them he would have won the wc and totally dominated button in the second half of the season.

[Magnus]

Button slaughtered Rubens in the first half though, so I don't see what your point it.
Whether it was pressure or the upgrade/downgrade package that Brawn introduced, that didn't suit Button's style, it really is irrelevant, Button was the better driver over the course of the season and that's really all that matters.

Highly debatable when you factor in reliability. Button had zero problems, rubens had a lot. If you weight it all up they were pretty even all season with rubens being more consistent. Button was amazingly lucky in the second part when all his rivals kept screwing up or having problems.

[MinT]

He very well could be. After all who says he isnt? Apart from a few Muppets on the inernet.

For a "formerF1driver" you do post a lot of rubbish - no respect for fellow drivers then ?

[krod]

Can we get back on topic? This is one of my favourite threads and this handbags at dawn stuff is not interesting.

[Phucaigh]

McLaren will not enter a bidding war for any driver.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/79720

[Captain Tightpants]

McLaren will not enter a bidding war for any driver.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/79720

Old news.

[HSJ]

No you. For someone who would like us to think that you're a former Formula One racing driver, you have a fundamental lack of understanding about how the teams develop the cars, something they have been doing - ad which has been an important part of car consistency - for a very long time.

No no, anyone who has ever been at all officially connected with Formula 1 is inifnitely knowledgeable about all things regarding F1. This is what many would like us to believe while debating around here, with their reference to "authority", for example when they can find a quote they like, even if it isn't supported by actual evidence or logic.

[RF1 fan]

According to Christophe Malbranque,f1 commentator in france and Renault's french podcast animator Renault and Red Bull have signed a new deal.

[mkay]

Old news.

No. It's not old news. McLaren just confirmed the rumors that they aren't going to sign someone asking for outrageous amounts like *cough* Kimi *cough*

[RF1 fan]

Horner and Newey went to Viry-Châtillion this week.

[Conny_Mary]

According to Christophe Malbranque,f1 commentator in france and Renault's french podcast animator Renault and Red Bull have signed a new deal.

It also means

[RF1 fan]

Red Bull should use Renault engine in 2010.

[saunarobot]

Does Alguersuari deserve a seat in F1, it's incredible how mediocre he is in World Series By Renault.

[PrettyBoy22]

Hamilton will not care who his team-mate is.

I think it could be Adrian Sutil. Anyone knows the odds?

[Clatter]

Does Alguersuari deserve a seat in F1, it's incredible how mediocre he is in World Series By Renault.

Having thrown him in the deep end with no testing, I do think he deserves to test and have a season to prove himself.

[Dispenser89]

Does Alguersuari deserve a seat in F1, it's incredible how mediocre he is in World Series By Renault.

He's 3rd in the standings in his rookie season. How is that mediocre?

He hasn't been great in F1, but has done a solid job with no testing, so i think he deserves a seat next year.

[saunarobot]

Yeah I know but I mean he hasn't shown anything in WSR, can't imagine any other current F1 driver not being able to dominate WSR.

[ezequiel]

Before joining F1 he was consistently slower than his teammate indeed (though the difference wasn't big...). He improved after joining F1, which is not casual I think. Anyway Bertrand Baguette has been the only superior driver this season. Alguersuari hasn't been better than Turvey, Walker or even Pic and Martínez, and even after joining F1.

[showtime]

He's a rookie fighting against most experienced drivers that have been in this series for years and don't have to focus in any other competition, despite that he has won a race and ranks third. In F1 Tost tells him in every race that 19 are racing and one is learning plus many times things look different when you don't know some details. For example, Brazil race looked a bit disappointing but is more understandable when you know TR decided before the q2 to prepare his car for a wet race (which explains why he didn't pass the q2 and his lack of pace in the race) and he was told before the start not to be an obstacle for Vettel. I'm not saying he's definitely F1 material but we should wait untill next season to judge him.

[CWeil]

Before joining F1 he was consistently slower than his teammate indeed (though the difference wasn't big...). He improved after joining F1, which is not casual I think. Anyway Bertrand Baguette has been the only superior driver this season. Alguersuari hasn't been better than Turvey, Walker or even Pic and Martínez, and even after joining F1.

Says the guy who championed Jose Maria Lopez?

Alguesuari hasn't been bad, though not particularly different to Bourdais (though I'd argue Bourdais was better). But I think he's done enough for his seat unless there are better options available.

[ezequiel]

Says the guy who championed Jose Maria Lopez?

Alguesuari hasn't been bad, though not particularly different to Bourdais (though I'd argue Bourdais was better). But I think he's done enough for his seat unless there are better options available.

Who championed López?. I just commited the crime of saying he wasn't another Mazzacane and that he is a better driver than someone like Tuero who wasn't bad in F1 at all, so if he gets to F1 he won't be a movile chicane as some people here suggested after it was known he had a few chances with US and Campos for next season... apart from that, I have made no comment in my previos post over Alguersuari's performance in F1 so far, I just pointed that he wasn't better than several other young drivers in WSR (including his teammate, who's a rookie too). Considering his age and that he made his debut with no testing in F1, I think he has performed quite correctly in F1 and that he needs more time to prove how good he really is there.

[Timstr11]

Button-Brawn deal is underway according to Goddard (Button's manager).

[COUGAR508]

Ross Brawn was on BBC radio earlier and said that Jenson is "99% certain" to drive for the team next season....

[Timstr11]

Ross Brawn was on BBC radio earlier and said that Jenson is "99% certain" to drive for the team next season....

That should kill all this baseless speculation about Button.

[Phucaigh]

It was on the Mail on Sunday too, Button close to £8 million contract with Brawn.