140 replies to this topic

[nikhil]

My hazy recollection si the G Lawrence car went to Frank Radisich, then Doug Heney and Ross Calgher all of who raced it

[David McKinney]

I hear Peter Herbert is working furiously to get the exLawrence M4A ready for the Bruce McLaren Festival next January.

Wonder what colour he'll do it in...I think it was black when it came out of Aus. Hope it's not 'McLaren orange/tanderine/papaya/Rhyman's Traffic Yellow/whatever like the O'Donnell car. Wrks open-wheelers weren't orange when the M4A ran in period.

That particular car was orange when Lawrence first raced it (before being redone in Air NZ colours)

And yes, nikhil, you recollection is correct. Then to Jon Warring to win the NZ hillclimb championship

Edited by David McKinney, 18 October 2009 - 10:13.

[Jerry Entin]

Bruce McLaren and the Mk 4
Note the star on the side, this was put on the cars that had Formula One drivers in them, so the fans would know which cars they were in.
Here is what Wally Willmott has to say about this picture:
"Those who are interested can see the fabricated Radius arm to chassis mounts and
the Lucas CD Ignition unit externally mounted to keep it cool. Not sure what
people are talking about in regards to chassis stiffness, compared to what?

We did a lot of testing during development and felt it was more than
adequate."

photo- Wally Willmott collection

Edited by Jerry Entin, 18 October 2009 - 14:43.

[Tim Murray]

The star indicated that the driver was on the list of graded drivers, ie those who had achieved the requisite number of top-six finishes in World Championship sports car and/or F1 races. This graded status meant that the driver was not eligible to score points in the European F2 Championship.

[Jerry Entin]

Here are Wally Willmott's thoughts on Graeme Lawrence's Mk 4:

"As I recall Graeme Lawrence came to England with the blessing of Bruce's father and a
production car was organised in kit form from Trojan/Elva factory and assembled in the McLaren workshop by Graeme, with a lot of help and guidance from 'The Team'. Graeme raced it in several races in Europe before returning with it to NZ. I believe George Begg owned it for a while."

Edited by Jerry Entin, 18 October 2009 - 15:00.

[Macca]

What more can I add, with Giraffe having taken many similar photos to mine?

Here is Michael Lyons in practise:




and here is the stubborn gearbox, with Frank Lyons' thumb working the selector:





Paul M

[David McKinney]

Here are Wally Willmott's thoughts on Graeme Lawrence's Mk 4:

"As I recall Graeme Lawrence came to England with the blessing of Bruce's father and a
production car was organised in kit form from Trojan/Elva factory and assembled in the McLaren workshop by Graeme, with a lot of help and guidance from 'The Team'. Graeme raced it in several races in Europe before returning with it to NZ. I believe George Begg owned it for a while."

Reluctant though I am to question one who was there... the car Lawrence raced in Europe was one of the works/Chequered Flag F2 cars. At the end of the season he (and The Team) assembled a car of his own to take back to NZ (without racing it in Europe)

[Duncan Fox]

I hear Peter Herbert is working furiously to get the exLawrence M4A ready for the Bruce McLaren Festival next January.

Wonder what colour he'll do it in...I think it was black when it came out of Aus. Hope it's not 'McLaren orange/tanderine/papaya/Rhyman's Traffic Yellow/whatever like the O'Donnell car. Wrks open-wheelers weren't orange when the M4A ran in period.

What is the significance of the Blue and yellow colour scheme? My first thought was MRP!

Petes M4 is in its final stages of assembly. When it arrived here it had a fresh coat of Traffic Yellow and after much discussion he accepted my arguement that he was denying the car its rightful history and it is now white awaiting its Teal and Gold Air New Zealand colors and signage. This was helped by the fact that I had located the original body work (seprated from the car for some 30 yrs) in the rafters at Begg and Allens old building in Takanini Auckland . Under Ross Calghers paint are all the ANZcolors and stripes. Perfect for a resto! It will not have the late season high wing.

[Duncan Fox]

Just had a thought, if one of the two original M4As is the current Donington car, wasn't the second one the car that Bruce ran with a 2.1 litre BRM engine in a few F1 events? He finished fourth in the 67 Monaco GP, and would have been second if he hadn't had to pit for a new battery. I think that this car was destroyed later that year in a fire while testing at Goodwood?

The Wybrott car at Donington was built using Courages crashed 1st tub by Howden Ganley at McLarens works . He fitted a modified M7 body and after discussion with Bruce called it from memory an M4C .It spent most of it time racing in the Far East. I saw the M7 bodywork for sale on EBAY some time back in Melborne. The BRM car was destroyed, so there are 3 ex works cars still around.

[Giraffe]

Mike Walker in the Chequered Flag FORMULA THREE version at Monaco in 1968.
NB the F3 team were sponsored by Scalextric hence the tie-up.

By co-incidence, Mike Walker was a guest at Silverstone at the HSCC meeting this weekend, and watched Michael Lyons running the M4A in qualifying.

[hhh]

I used to own M4A-002........with a FVA engine, Orange and looking gorgeous!
Bought at the Brooks auction in Monaco in May 1991, not knowing there was no way I could fit in the car.
I think I owned the car until the late summer of 1992 when sold at a Coys auction for far too little money; when I made bid myself to get the car up to a higher price, suddenly their phone went dead and the car was sold.........

As far as I know it was one of the 2 factory cars, the ex-Piers Courage Tasman car; I have a fax from Creighton Brown in 1992 about the car.

I never knew where the car went after the auction at Coys.

[hhh]

I used to own M4A-002........with a FVA engine, Orange and looking gorgeous!
Bought at the Brooks auction in Monaco in May 1991, not knowing there was no way I could fit in the car.
I think I owned the car until the late summer of 1992 when sold at a Coys auction for far too little money; when I made bid myself to get the car up to a higher price, suddenly their phone went dead and the car was sold.........

As far as I know it was one of the 2 factory cars, the ex-Piers Courage Tasman car; I have a fax from Creighton Brown in 1992 about the car.

I never knew where the car went after the auction at Coys.

Mistake....the car was red when I had it...
Could this be the Donington car??

[raceannouncer2003]

I have an M4 in the USA that was raced by Sketter McKitterick in 1969 using a Alfa Romeo twin plug. the car was Painted red and with Formula 2 wheels and brakes and FT200. Unable to confirm who/how the car got to the states. It has had the same owner from 1970 to 1996.At some point the car was dissassembled and of course the chassis number lost !!The car as it sits today is in Formula B trim (twin cam/MK5 hewland) with the rear radius rod pick ups on the engine side of the rollbar but with the F2 parts.

The following is posted on behalf of horizon...photos and email from Skeeter McKitterick:







"...I do not have much in the way of records, so I will go on memory. The car was owned & sponsored by International Automotive an Alfa Romeo dealer in Encino, CA. Alfa Romeo provided engine components and John Shankle – Shankle Automotive Engineering prepared the engines.

The car was very quick when we did not have engine problems. We ran it in SCCA club races in Southern Calif. with some success. I recall one of the good times being at Santa Barbara which after the engine not starting & being push started on the grid we were black flagged and came into the pits, we were allowed to go back out and caught up to the leaders and continued to lap the whole field including FA cars. Like I said when it ran right it was very fast! We also ran various Continental Pro series races – Sears Point, Elkhart Lake among them along with the Sebring event we spoke about. Sebring was a show of its potential – I spun in an early lap – lost power and after getting it to start came back out just in front of the leaders which included F3 drivers Tim Schenken and Rene Wissel (future F1 guys) along with our regulars at the time Mike Eyerly etc. I was able to lead these guys for a few laps until thinking I better let them through – they were racing for the lead. Anyway the car had great potential.

I found a few photos – not great on track stuff, I don’t know where they are – I think maybe framed in a box? I have attached scanned copies of what I found. If you would like copies of these, I will see what I can do. By the way the one of three people in the photo is not to show us (crew chief, owner & myself) – but to give a little additional up close of the car. Let me know how else I can help.

Skeeter..."

Vince H.

[Giraffe]

Here is the M4A that is currently on display at the Donington Collection, pictured yesterday....


By giraffe138, shot with EX-M2 at 2009-11-03

[Alan Cox]

The following is posted on behalf of horizon...photos and email from Skeeter McKitterick:

Vince H.

Thanks for posting those fascinating photos, Vince, and for Skeeter's recollections.

[gavinevitt]

I saw 2 of the 3 M4 McLarens that were due to appear at the McLaren Festival.
I didn't see the Peter Herbert car at Hampton Downs, so presume it wasn't finished in time, and the Lyon's car did not take to the track, leaving the O'Donnell car to show the form of the M4.

[eldougo]

...Eastern Creek M4a 2008.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

..G.L. & K.B.having a chat.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[sircumference]

. Under Ross Calghers paint are all the ANZcolors and stripes. Perfect for a resto! It will not have the late season high wing.

I may be able to help here as I owned this car and raced it in the mid 1970s here in New Zealand . I did find it hard to accept that under my paint job was the orginal colours . reason . afer purchasing the car from Jon Warring [ who i had known for many years] we raced the car it the red & white paint [ i still have photos of that ] then for the next season we stripped the monocoque to bare metal and resprayed it red & White again , I also had made a complete new top front half of the fibreglass body this was done in a Red gelcoat with no paint underneath . , the only orginal part of the body was the engine cover still left in red . . When i sold the car to late great George Begg it went with the orginal many times repaired body and part of the top front as we had at one stage fitted the sturtees nose cone from G lawerence Sturtees car . the body up in Begg 7 Allen workshop may have been the old I sold the car to George in early 1977 . reason for sale MSNZ had changed the rules and car was classed as a F5000 by MSNZ and had to run with the 10% handicap that F5000 cars had to even though this was a 1600cc car . would love to have a small run in the car again . Ross Calgher / Waitara / New Zealand ,

[Redneb]

From my photo album and marked 1969/1970.

Henky Iriawan, McLaren at Pukekohe.






Then Frank Radisich, McLaren.

[Paul Hamilton]

From my photo album and marked 1969/1970.

Henky Iriawan, McLaren at Pukekohe.






Then Frank Radisich, McLaren.

The Hengkie Iriawan car is an Elfin 600C not a McLaren!!!!

[Paul Hamilton]

From my photo album and marked 1969/1970.

Henky Iriawan, McLaren at Pukekohe.






Then Frank Radisich, McLaren.

The Hengkie Iriawan car is an Elfin 600C not a McLaren!!!!

[SJ Lambert]

The Hengkie Iriawan car is an Elfin 600C not a McLaren!!!!

Well spotted Paul - just the top shot, or the middle one as well?

James

[Redneb]

Darn, the inaccurate notes of a 12 year old's photo album. Apologies.

[Paul Hamilton]

Well spotted Paul - just the top shot, or the middle one as well?

James

The car in the middle shot has an FPF Climax engine. It is neither an Elfin nor a McLaren and is probaly a Brabham of some type.

That 600C of Hengkie certainly looked pretty sleek with the fuel injected FVA which was much more compact on the inlet side of the engine than the usual carburetted twin cam.

[ellrosso]

Yes I still have the RCN story of that crash - the damage was enormous. He was so lucky to get out of that alive.

[GD66]

The car in the middle shot has an FPF Climax engine. It is neither an Elfin nor a McLaren and is probaly a Brabham of some type.

The only Climax-engined car I can recall from that season that had a white low-level exhaust pipe is Peter Moloney's Cooper, could that be it ?

[David McKinney]

The only Climax-engined car I can recall from that season that had a white low-level exhaust pipe is Peter Moloney's Cooper, could that be it ?

Looks more Brabham to me - how about the one young Thomasen raced at that meeting?

[SJ Lambert]

Yes I still have the RCN story of that crash - the damage was enormous. He was so lucky to get out of that alive.

Are we talkig about the Allen incident? Photos/RCN article I've seen have it right up there with the later day Martin Donnolley (spelling?) Lotus F1 disintegration end up strapped to not much of anything effort?

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by David McKinney
Looks more Brabham to me - how about the one young Thomasen raced at that meeting?

David, I have to say that rear bulkhead doesn't look so Brabham to me... just doesn't look right...

elrosso... for those of us watching the Allen crash from a little distance away, we were sure he had to be dead. Of course, he was basically unhurt, which testifies to theories about the destruction of the car dissipating the energy of its momentum.

[David McKinney]

David, I have to say that rear bulkhead doesn't look so Brabham to me... just doesn't look right...

Oh, I don't know....



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[Raido]

Well, don't know if it'll help but here is the chassis interior pic I took of the M4A at Donington, chassis number included.

http://postimage.org/image/p3d9zvk4/

[RonPohl]

The following is posted on behalf of horizon...photos and email from Skeeter McKitterick:







"...I do not have much in the way of records, so I will go on memory. The car was owned & sponsored by International Automotive an Alfa Romeo dealer in Encino, CA. Alfa Romeo provided engine components and John Shankle – Shankle Automotive Engineering prepared the engines.

The car was very quick when we did not have engine problems. We ran it in SCCA club races in Southern Calif. with some success. I recall one of the good times being at Santa Barbara which after the engine not starting & being push started on the grid we were black flagged and came into the pits, we were allowed to go back out and caught up to the leaders and continued to lap the whole field including FA cars. Like I said when it ran right it was very fast! We also ran various Continental Pro series races – Sears Point, Elkhart Lake among them along with the Sebring event we spoke about. Sebring was a show of its potential – I spun in an early lap – lost power and after getting it to start came back out just in front of the leaders which included F3 drivers Tim Schenken and Rene Wissel (future F1 guys) along with our regulars at the time Mike Eyerly etc. I was able to lead these guys for a few laps until thinking I better let them through – they were racing for the lead. Anyway the car had great potential.

I found a few photos – not great on track stuff, I don’t know where they are – I think maybe framed in a box? I have attached scanned copies of what I found. If you would like copies of these, I will see what I can do. By the way the one of three people in the photo is not to show us (crew chief, owner & myself) – but to give a little additional up close of the car. Let me know how else I can help.

Skeeter..."

Vince H.

Ok, a little late in responding to this post, but what's a few years when talking about the old formula b cars. Did the Skeeter car become the Max Callicott car? The Callicott car was also a red Mk4 and was for sale in Snow's Garage in Orange CA about 1970. At the time it had a Lotus Twincam....not an Alfa. Actually, as I recall the engine ended up in my Brabham, so the Callicott car may well have be purchased without an engine.

[horizon]

Ronpohl <

That is a very good question. very Interesting. How did you end up with engine out of the M4 ?

 

This week I discovered that Skeeter McKitterick's car did come from Chq. flag (prob. earily 1969) per an Ad . placed in "Competition Press" (Dec.68). 4 cars were avalable. Black,red,blue, yellow/white. One of the 4 was one of the two F3 cars.

[RonPohl]

Ronpohl <

That is a very good question. very Interesting. How did you end up with engine out of the M4 ?

 

This week I discovered that Skeeter McKitterick's car did come from Chq. flag (prob. earily 1969) per an Ad . placed in "Competition Press" (Dec.68). 4 cars were avalable. Black,red,blue, yellow/white. One of the 4 was one of the two F3 cars.

Max was a friend of engine builder Chuck Willis (CRW) who was building engines for the FF that I owned with Phil Palm. We seriously considered buying the Mk4 but purchased a BT-29 from Doug Brenner.  We new the Brabham had a damaged engine when we bought it (spun bearing) and Chuck offered us a deal….exchange the damaged engine and he would give us the engine from the McLaren with a fresh rebuild.  Not sure if Chuck paid Max, or maybe he actually owned the engine all along. As I recall ,the engine out of the Brabham ultimate went to Lazer

 

BTW, I think it was probably late 1971 or 1972 when I looked at the car in Snows Garage. As i recall, It had what I believe was a MK5, not an FT-200 which was a factor in going with the Brabham. Cheers

[Allen Brown]

Ronpohl <

That is a very good question. very Interesting. How did you end up with engine out of the M4 ?

 

This week I discovered that Skeeter McKitterick's car did come from Chq. flag (prob. earily 1969) per an Ad . placed in "Competition Press" (Dec.68). 4 cars were avalable. Black,red,blue, yellow/white. One of the 4 was one of the two F3 cars.

 

Were those colours given in the advert?  I have not seen that ad.

[Allen Brown]

Max was a friend of engine builder Chuck Willis (CRW) who was building engines for the FF that I owned with Phil Palm. We seriously considered buying the Mk4 but purchased a BT-29 from Doug Brenner.  We new the Brabham had a damaged engine when we bought it (spun bearing) and Chuck offered us a deal….exchange the damaged engine and he would give us the engine from the McLaren with a fresh rebuild.  Not sure if Chuck paid Max, or maybe he actually owned the engine all along. As I recall ,the engine out of the Brabham ultimate went to Lazer

 

BTW, I think it was probably late 1971 or 1972 when I looked at the car in Snows Garage. As i recall, It had what I believe was a MK5, not an FT-200 which was a factor in going with the Brabham. Cheers

 

A F2 car would surely have had a FT200.  Maybe this was the sole remaining F3 car or maybe the Mk 5 came with the Alfa.

[hhh]

Seeing my earlier post on M4A-002, the Courage car: I bought it at the Brooks auction in 1989 for FF 550,000 and old it in 1992 throught the Coys auction.

Sat in my garage for 3 years as I didn't fit in the car......

It had FVA 1030 fitted.

[Allen Brown]

Seeing my earlier post on M4A-002, the Courage car: I bought it at the Brooks auction in 1989 for FF 550,000 and old it in 1992 throught the Coys auction.

Sat in my garage for 3 years as I didn't fit in the car......

It had FVA 1030 fitted.

 

Thanks John.

[ellrosso]

Few shots from ORP library.

[eldougo]

That must be the most ugly M4a ever to race ,such a shame they chose that color.

Here is Michael Lyons in practise:







Paul M

Edited by eldougo, 20 March 2014 - 00:26.

[horizon]

Thanks Ellrosso for posting  some great pics  

[Gary Jarlson]

Chuck Willis was also my engine builder in the mid-70s. The first time I went to his shop I noticed a bare tub sitting in a storage area above the main shop. When I asked about it, Chuck said it was "just some old McLaren." On another occasion, he mentioned that, if he ever found the time, he might put it back together. But during that period he was a main supplier of engines for the Atlantic series so spare time wasn't in abundance. Chuck later spent a couple of years building a Bristol Channel cutter and he and his wife went off to sail the world. When I stopped by the shop, which was now being run by his son, the McLaren was gone. I may have been told who it went to, but I can't recall a name.

[Allen Brown]

I have just published a page on the McLaren M4As on OldRacingCars.com.  I would welcome any additional information.

 

McLaren M4A

 

If anyone would be willing to keep me updated as the cars appear in historic racing this season, I would be hugely obliged to them.

[alansart]

David Coplowe testing M4A/2. Mallory Park 2010.

 

[Allen Brown]

David Coplowe testing M4A/2. Mallory Park 2010.

 

 

May I use that Alan?

[RonPohl]

Chuck Willis was also my engine builder in the mid-70s. The first time I went to his shop I noticed a bare tub sitting in a storage area above the main shop. When I asked about it, Chuck said it was "just some old McLaren." On another occasion, he mentioned that, if he ever found the time, he might put it back together. But during that period he was a main supplier of engines for the Atlantic series so spare time wasn't in abundance. Chuck later spent a couple of years building a Bristol Channel cutter and he and his wife went off to sail the world. When I stopped by the shop, which was now being run by his son, the McLaren was gone. I may have been told who it went to, but I can't recall a name.

[RonPohl]

Got to believe that was the Callicott car. Gary, I sent you a PM...did you race a Merlyn Foemula B?

[Eshe]

Can anyone tell me if the M4A brake rotors as shown in the photo were a McLaren design or did they come off a production car of some sort? 

 

[ChrisJson]

I raced a black McLaren M4 with a Dynaflex chassis

and a GE Silver Hornet engine in my parents garage,

early 70´s. Lap times a little over 5 seconds.

 

Unfortunately no chassis plate but perhaps Mr Boor

will recognise it.

 

Christer

[TerryS]

I see that the ex Piers Courage / Niel Allen M4A is now for sale in the UK. Unfortunately no price given.

https://racecarsdire...n-m4a-formula-2

This car had a HUGE crash in Allen's hands at Lakeside, tearing the car in two. A new tub was required.

See Ray's posts #30 and #40 on this thread for details.

Some photos of the car in Allen's hands:

http://autopics.com....r-lance-ruting/

http://autopics.com....r-lance-ruting/

http://autopics.com....wick-farm-1969/

I personally think the car looked fabulous in Allen's dark blue car rather than how it now appears.