474 replies to this topic

[Ray Bell]

And who she was?

[fines]

Schu and sex appeal? Naah, look at the chin!

[Milan Fistonic]

While going through my box of newspaper clippings I came across a report on the 1962 New Zealand Grand Prix. That was the final race at Ardmore and it was held in torrential rain, so heavy that the race was shortened from 150 to 100 miles.
Moss simply outclassed a field that contained drivers like Brabham, McLaren, Surtees, Bandini, Salvadori and Flockhart. Despite backing off towards the end of the race Moss finished 1m 39.4s ahead of Surtees with McLaren two laps behind in third place.
In those days the drivers on the podium were expected to address the crowd (not like today where they rush off to be interviewed for TV), and Surtees made the comment that I'm sure was in everyone's mind that day. Of Moss he said, "He's just not normal."

[Roger Clark]

I thought I would resurrect this thread to include this quote, from 1963. He has been talking about the battle for te championship in 1958, and the strain it put him under.

'Now if last year 1 had been in the position of Jim Clark or Graham Hill, with a near chance of the world title, 1 reckon 1 might well have had a private word with Rob Walker and driven a race totally different from what most people would have imagined. 1 would have liked to have driven absolutely flat-out for perhaps ten laps, then pulled into my Pits for a short while, and set off again behind the others to really enjoy myself.

'I mean that quite sincerely. Towards the end of my racing career 1 began to have an entirely different attitude towards the world championship. So 1 didn't win the championship, and everyone says 1 should have done. Well, 1 reckon that the finest driver the world has ever known is Fangio, and he won it five times. What could 1 do to try to demonstrate that 1 was better? Win the title six times, 1 suppose. If 1 had won it once or twice 1 wouldn't have proved myself better than others of less calibre than Fangio. This doesn't mean that 1 am denigrating the championship: people like Jack Brabham, Graham Hill and Phil Hill are jolly good drivers, and 1 have the greatest respect for their ability and courage. All 1 am saying is that in the later stages of my racing career 1 began to get the world championship in perspective and in doing so 1 enjoyed my racing all the more. And 1 went motor racing for the enjoyment it gave me.

[Ray Bell]

From All But My Life?

I'm sure it is... yes, and this quote could fit in well with some earlier discussion in the Amon thread.

I wonder what impact such a move might have had on future WDC contests?

That is assuming, of course, that others knew this was his plot...

[Wolf]

Roger, Ray- thanx for excavating this thread. I was contemplating to do the same, thinking I've given you all long enough pause...;)

Ray, nnah, 'tis not from there. In 'All But My Life' he said he'd pull in, sit on a pit wall, drink a cup o' tea and enjoy the race.

BTW, how did he get to dislike BRM so much? Was it P15 itself, or...?

[Ray Bell]

As you should well know, he disliked the fact that they didn't put rack and pinion steering on the V16... Design and Behaviour...

But he didn't seem to dislike them that much, raced the BRP car a few times... it was more or less his team, after all....

[Roger Clark]

The quote was from an interview inMotor Racing magazine. It was conducted just a few days after his run at Goodwood and decision to retire.

In the course of his interview he was asked about other drivers. The first was Fangio, of course ("he never revelled in a fight; he was so good he didn't have to fight"). Ascari he rated slightly below Fangio on judgement. He also rated Villoresi from his (Moss') early days. The only other drivers he mentioned were Jean Behra ("because of his guts, courage and fight") and Dan Gurney ("the greatest driver thrown up by America").This, remember was before the start of the 1963 season.

[Barry Boor]

I don't have time to go through all this thread to see if there is one anywhere, so may I ask, can anyone post a picture or direct me to an image of Stirling's 250F Maserati painted green? Naturally a colour photo would be preferable!

[Barry Boor]

While surfing around this afternoon, looking for a picture that answers the above question, I came across a very interesting picture on Stirling's website.

It is of Stirling in the HWM at San Remo (Ospedaletti) in 1951. I have never seen the picture before, but immediately spotted the thirty metres or so of road because I walked along it last summer.

I really would LOVE to post two images, side by side for a 'then and now' comparison spanning nearly 50 years, but Mr. Moss' site has a warning that if I (or anyone else) posts an image without permission, very large objects will tumble from the sky onto my already-short-of-hair cranium. So I had better not!

If anyone is interested, I'll post my image and add a link to the 'other' one.

[jarama]

Please, Barry B, would be interesting.

[Ray Bell]

Come on Barry, be brave... email Mossy and get permission... I'm sure you'll get it if you credit the site!

He might even be chuffed that a Croatian who drinks in the Slaughtered Lamb* would start this thread in his enthusiasm for him.

*a pretend pub in the Paddock Club

[Wolf]

Barry, I think I know the picture You're referring to and moreover I belive that photo popped up on this thread earlier (if You don't say it to Moss or Gurney- I belive it's his manager's name, I won't either ;))... BTW, just to get the record straight- it's the one leading Gonzalez in Ferrari 500 in tight righthander? I guess it must be in the first half of the thread...

[Ray Bell]

Do you ever sleep, Wolf?

You and Barry and me.... what a team!

Hope you didn't mind me mentioning your addiction to cyber alcohol...

[Barry Boor]

No, Wolfie, it's not that one. That's the thing about it, I have NEVER seen it before. It's a rear view of SM on his own in a short section of road that is the most northern part of the track. Look here for the photo http://www.stirlingm...mossimage4.html

This is my picture of the same piece of road. Incidentally, this is one of the pictures included in my 'Ghost of San Remo' story on www.retroracing.co.uk



I see they have built a factory, but the track directly opposite seems unchanged.

[Roger Clark]

Is this taken at hte start of that straight?

[Barry Boor]

No, Roger, I don't think so. There is little to aid recognition of where this particular picture was taken but I have an idea it is the last corner on the lap.

It's just a feeling I get.

Hey, this looking around old circuits is a great idea, isn't it!

[Wolf]

Well, consider me 'a man on a mission' again.;)

I was surprised by reading in Design & Behaviour... that neutral handling cars were considered a no-no back in those days. It seemed logical that if they intended to fo in a drift, it would seem desirable.

And I was very much surprised by that short-wheelbase W196 story. Why would car loose so much stability by loosing only 2"? But it seemed a good tool to separate good and great drivers, judging by Nurnburg test results.

[Ray Bell]

The SWB was faster at Nurburg for Moss and Fangio, slower for Kling and Neubauer, as I recall...

And wasn't it considered it might be too much of a handful for race distance?

[Gary Davies]

Years ago, when I was a wee lad, the BBC used to broadcast the occasional Grand Prix live, with Raymond Baxter commentating. The 1961 Monaco GP was one such. I was 12. And I was hooked. I'd already heard of SM; this was that day he became my idol. I think that every Grand Prix I have seen since has been somewhat less exciting - and yes, I was at Adelaide in '94 and Silverstone '87!

I digress. This is one Stirling Moss story I love, paraphrased from Jenks' wonderful book "The Racing Driver".

Moss was always very serious about getting the start right ... never more so than in Le Mans type starts. Invariably, he would assume a highly athletic stance awaiting the starter and sprint to his car, normally well ahead of most of the others.

One day at Goodwood, Mike Hawthorn decided as a joke on his friend Stirling, to run for his car outrageously early. The prank worked, sort of. Upon seeing Hawthorn running well before the starter's signal, SM bellowed out: "You bastard Hawthorn!" before himself sprintiing for the car upon the starter's signal a second or two later.

Hawthorn himself dissolved into tears of helpless laughter at hearing SM's outburst and, staggering helpless into his car, was the last away.

[Gil Bouffard]

Hawthorn (Champion Year) says the run (described by Jenks) was at the 1958 Nurburgring 1000 Km race. I have seen a sequence of pictures of that start and Hawthorn is in the middle of the road doubled over. One of the captions said he had jumped the start.

Gil

[oldtimer]

Welcome 'Vanwall' from a Vanwall fan!

I confirm Gif's location. Hawthorn was on the pole, and John Wyer's book on the Aston Martins shows Hawthorn well ahead of Moss in the sprint across the track. I believe the doubling up with laughter occured in the car, so Mike didn't get his jump on Moss, though I suspect his real intent was to enjoy the joke.

[Gary Davies]

Thank you Gil and oldtimer. Nürburgring. Happy to stand corrected. I have to confess to assuming it was Goodwood.

Vanwall

[Bernd]

I was reading a book where the author described talking to Moss whom identified his three favourite circuits in the world. The first two are no surprise but the third I found quite surprising but Moss was very enthusiastic about this track calling it a 'real racers track'

Who can guess what it is

1. Nurburgring
2. Monaco
3. ?

It is a track that I find quite nice myself but doesn't seem to get much praise in great circuit conversations.

[UAtkins]

I have just posted a long article written by Bruce McLaren (1962) in which he talks about competing against Stirling all season. I think you will all enjoy the article. The article is on the thread that is about my Dad, C.T. "Tommy" Atkins.

Ursula

[jarama]

Bernd,

it's only a guess, but, are we talking of Pescara?

[oldtimer]

Ursula: Great posting - thanks!

Bernd: How about Oulton Park?

[Wolf]

Thanx Ursula, excellent stuff!

No, guys- I'm putting my money on Spa.;) Bernd- tell them I'm right (for a change).;)

[fines]

Bernd, from when is the book? Could make a difference...

[Bernd]

OK not Spa, Pescara or Oulton Park. It really is a surprise

The book is David Mackay's Scuderia Veloce which probably will be hard for non-Australians to get.

Sorry Wolf you weren't right no change

[Gary Davies]

Aha! Bernd, you cunning devil! Your profile doesn't reveal your location so there were no deductions to be made there, BUT! ... you said: "... hard for non-Australians to get ..."

So I say Bathurst!

Vanwall.

[Bernd]

Sorry unintentionally misleading clue there guys. The book will be hard for non-Aussies to get the track is NOT in Australia.

*Clue*

Wine Bottle



hehe thats a fiendish clue

[KzKiwi]

Bernd,

It's not Laguna Seca by any chance is it? Or, should that be the 'Mazda Mayhem somethingorrather', as it is about to be known as.

Regards,

Kirk

[Bernd]

Damn KZ you got it! was my cryptic Wine Bottle as in Corkscrew hint any help?

[Gil Bouffard]

Yahoo!

I have finally reconstituted my Stirling Moss library. A divorce and what seems like a lifetime ago I had the first book Stirling Moss had written. I then bought the second book. The last book was "All But My Life," with Ken Purdy.

Moss wrote "In The Track of Speed," in 1957. He followed with "A Turn At The Wheel," in 1961. A little diligent searching finally got my collection together.

They are very interesting because Stirling is writing "in the moment," rather than retrospectively.

Gil

[Ray Bell]

It's a long time since I saw that first one, Gil... have the other two in my collection, however, though All But My Life isn't really all that immediate, having come over a year after his last race...

[prettyface]

Greetings all.

Nothing but questions, I'm afraid

Wasn't Stirling writing another autobiography recently? I seem to recall reading about it somewhere, and the fact that he would be publishing some new evidence on his crash.

I'm quite fascinated with Moss, but I´m not really knowledgeable about him. What's so mysterious about his Goodwood crash that he´s still digging up evidence? I mean, it´s clear that it was very atipycal of him to not try to correct the "off"; but the fact that he himself doesn´t seem to have all the facts is baffling. Did he lose his memory? Some unresolved mechanical failure? A ripple in the space-time continuum? Or was he just eyeing a beatiful woman?

No, but seriously.

[Ray Bell]

Were you there?

I think the main issue is that he did suffer a memory loss and he's unconvinced of whether it was a mechanical failure or driver failure.

Welcome to the Nostalgia Forum, by the way... you seem to be new... like about another fifteen who've popped up around here in the week I've been away... hope you all register on the roll call... where did that go? About page four?

[prettyface]

About me being there, I wished!!! I was born a bit too late for that.

I registered a couple of days ago and then I found out the Nostalgia Forum, which is about 80% of my reading here since I'm more enthusiastic about the old stuff than the watered-down modern F1. The thing is, I don´t see myself posting here much due to vast ignorance, nothing much to say except for questions, I'm afraid Reading through all this thread was a blast, but I don' t expect to finish the Amon thread anytime soon. Jesus!

[UAtkins]

I have been the lucky recipient of copies of some articles that Bruce McLaren wrote, one of them is about Stirling's crash so I thought I would share something written at the time of the event by another racer.

"May 8, 1962 Motoring Page by Bruce McLaren

Stirling’s Accident Still Is A Mystery

As I write this, Stirling Moss is lying unconscious in hospital having been in a coma since his smash in the Lotus V8 at Goodwood on Easter Monday.
At the moment the main topic of conversation in Britain is “what’s the latest news on Stirling?”
But the concern is not limited to the motor-racing fraternity.
Everyone is discussing Stirling’s accident–the man in the street, people in bus queues, boys on bicycles.
Everywhere I have heard one person asking another: “How is he?”
News on Stirling has had priority in the newspapers and on radio and television, and to a whole nation’s relief hospital reports say he will recover.
People are also asking how it happened.
For Stirling to go off at that point on the circuit there must have been a mechanical mishap of some form.
It has been confirmed that the brakes were working, and the second suspect factor of a sticking throttle has also been discounted.
However, a sudden ignition failure or a transmission breakdown which could have made the car unstable, are possible causes.
We’ll probably never know what triggered off the accident.

115 mph
I usually take that corner in the top gear of my six-speed gearbox at about 115 miles an hour.
Graham Hill, who was leading Stirling immediately before the accident, said that just before he entered the slight right-hand sweep Stirling suddenly appeared, traveling very fast on the grass to his left.
This leads me to believe Stirling either had trouble with the brakes or had the throttle stick for a second and instantly steered to the left, on to the grass, to avoid ramming Hill who would have been braking in front of him.
An action of this sort by a driver and sportsman of Stirling’s calibre would be no surprise to me."

I wasn't at the race where he was injured but I do remember walking around the course later that year and having rather a funny feeling knowing what had happened. I was only 10 at the time but remember that indeed everyone was talking about it and also reading about it. Since my Dad was an entrant at the time and very much involved in the racing scene the accident was often a topic of conversation.

Ursula

[Wolf]

Thanx, Ursula- great stuff. I was always wondering if he remembered what happened, what would he do? If it was his mistake (which I doubt), my guess is that he would admit it. But would he say decisevly in case it was car failure? Or would he rather say nothing?

BTW, if it was really the case of throttle stuck open could it on impact worked itself loose and 'unstuck'? I mean, we're talking major impact here...

[UAtkins]

I am in the process of reading "Grand Prix Carpetbaggers" by John Cooper with John Bentley, came across this item I thought you might enjoy:

"Among our first customers were Sir Francis Samuelson, followed by Stirling Moss (destined to reach the pinnacle of fame in motor racing) and Peter Collins, a natural-born enthusiast whose father, Patrick, had a large automotive dealership in Kidderminster (Worcestershire), the carpet manufacturing center on the river Stour. Moss had got wind of the fact that we were building a production 500 cc race car, but he was at this time still at school. He was under sixteen years old and not really old enough to drive a four-wheeled motorcar legally; but he did have a three-wheeler Morgan which his father had bought him. This in itself was quite a “hairy” machine tha demanded good handling and driving.
Stirling came to see us on a Friday, I remember, and took a look at our “production line” which was just then getting under way. He at once ordered a car from us and went off quite happily. Until Sunday, that was, when his father called us up and canceled the order.
“Stirling’s still too young to go racing,” he said, “no matter how enthusiastic he may be. What’s more, this whole project is going to affect his school studies.”
I don’t know how Stirling got around his father, but on Monday morning Mr. Moss was back with a check and reinstated the order. So it came about that Stirling had one of the first production Coopers to come off the line. Upon its completion, we agreed to deliver the little car to his home at Bray, near Maidenhead. I well recall how eagerly the lad was waiting for us when we arrived. He already had his white coveralls on and was ready to go! So we towed the car to a local building site where they were putting up houses but there was no traffic since the project was located on a very large farm estate. We quickly unloaded the car and I drove it around the half-built houses a couple of times to get things warmed up. Then I handed over the machine to its youthful new owner for his first effort in a four-wheel race car. And I must say I realized right away that this boy was going to be somebody in motor racing. He was quite fantastic in the sure, easy way he handled the car. In fact I grew terrified just watching him. Within minutes of first getting into the car he was going at a tremendous speed and with complete self-confidence.
Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately at the time, the terrific noise of the car’s open exhaust brought the cops around and we had to load up and once and do a lot of fast talking. Then we went back to the Moss farm. I remember also that in those days Stirling was a great horseman–a sport at which his sister, Pat, also excelled. Anyway, the converted the horse box into a covered trailer for the Cooper, so that it could easily be transported to the next race meeting. Soon after, the whole outfit got a coat of white paint, which made it look very attractive and clean. They used a Jeep, I think, as a tow-car for the horse-box trailer, and this too was painted white."

Ursula

[FLB]

Originally posted by Wolf
Thanx, Ursula- great stuff. I was always wondering if he remembered what happened, what would he do? If it was his mistake (which I doubt), my guess is that he would admit it. But would he say decisevly in case it was car failure? Or would he rather say nothing?

On another site, Mike Lawrence wrote a story about it. The explanation he gave was that Alf Francis had modified the rear suspension and gearbox. Chapman had seen it and rolled his eyes in disgust. According to Lawrence, the car simply jumped out of gear unexpectedly at St. Mary's.

This is only speculative, but as Moss was close to Francis, could he simply have been protecting him all these years? Even if he knows what happened?

[Wolf]

Wolf, weary from excavations lays his showel aside and takes a deep breath...

Phew, that's what I call a work. But seeing lots of new people around, I thought some of them might want to contribute...

[dmj]

Yesterday I found a interesting short story that includes probably the fastest vehicle Moss ever drove... if that's a right word. Now, I don't know if Moss was related to airplanes before but now I know he drove an airplane during a transatlantic flight a few years ago... Full story tomorrow - if no one beats me before!

[dmj]

Here it is, from Thoroughbred & Classic cars, November 1998, written by executive editor Robert Coucher:
"All the movers and shakers were in California in August for the Monterey Weekend. I bumped into Hugh Taylor, Alfa Monza owner, having eggs Benedict in the Virgin lounge and once on board I heard Maserati afficionado Alexander Fyshe muttering because a very pretty but firm air hostess wouldn't let him light one of his pungent Davidoff cigarettes. Thank God.
Stirling Moss wandered down for a chat and I suggested he visit the cockpitt. Half an hour later he emerged and asked if I could feel when he took over!"

[Wolf]

Dmj, I guess that beats his (almost) 250mph F class landspeed record MG car. I notice that most GP drivers were fascinated with piloting airplanes* because of the sheer speed, although Massa Moss hit the nail on the head when he said that it's the speed on the ground that matters the most (speed in the air being very relative expirience, and on the water 'unreliable')...

Heh, BTW, just the other day I edited all my pic posts in this thread to comply with copyright standards.

* As an OT- who was the driver who was supposed to give Fangio a lift from Ireland to Monza race in '52, but has forgotten about this arrangement? I notice that most sources do not disclose his identity...

[Joe Fan]

Moss's crash at Goodwood in 1962, is it just me or does anyone else think it was just plain driver error? It seems that Moss was such talented driver that the British press gave him the benefit of the doubt that the crash was due to something mechanical. Moss has no memory of what actually happened and several theories involving mechanical failure were thrown out with none to my knowledge ever being proven. What makes me wonder is that Moss and John Surtees had been on a torrid pace before his crash with both posting an identical fast times of 1 minute 22 seconds--a new lap record for the Goodwood circuit. Was Moss charging too hard in the corner and trying to outbrake Hill?

[Wolf]

Joe, let us recapitulate the course of events and see what we can make out of it... Being a Moss fan, I'm inclined to look for blame elsewhere, but I'm open-minded about the whole thing (he is human, after all, and humans do make mistakes).


1. Walker Lotus 21 was on his way from New Zealand, so Moss drove Yeoman Credit Lotus 18/21
2. lap 9: Moss was in 4th place when gearbox stuck in 4th gear
3. 5 minute pitstop to fix it; exits the pits three laps down on G. Hill leading the race
4. sets FL (1:22.0, shared with FJ)
5. catches Hill and has accident when unlapping himself
___5.1. stretch between Fordwater (fast) and St.Mary's (slow)- unusual place for overtaking; speed cca. 120mph (190kph)
___5.2. down-shifts from 5th to 4th gear at the right spot
___5.3. goes off the track (on the outside) on the grass, presumably to avoid hitting Hill
___5.4. goes straight off, slowing down to 60-80mph (100-130kph) in the process
___5.5. hits an earth embankment

What else do we know?
1. Yeoman Credit Lotus 18/21 '912' (previous Walker car) had been heavily modified by Alf Francis and some sources tend to give him the blame (I'm not in favour of that theory, either); apparently changes made to the rear end to allow mounting the FWMV (V8), have seriously reduced stiffness of the rear end (some say to 300 lb/ft/deg)
2. gearbox getting stuck might be the result of the reduced stiffness, but:
___2.1 The FWMV was first put into the 18/21 during practice for Italian GP previous year- that should be the time those modifications were made; the car did not show those symptoms (AFAIK) during the rest of '61 season. BTW, the reason for not using it in the race is (apart from Moss driving Ireland's works Lotus 21 car '933') was greater fuel consumption with not so much power more than FPF.
___2.2 he used the same car in Bruxelles GP (April 1st) and Lombank Trophy (April 14th)- in the first DNF (engine failure) and 7th in latter because of many pit-stops (related to throttle lingage trouble)
___2.3 some sources blame the car because the car looked like having throttle stuck and jumping out of gear, which is somewhat moot point- what would be effect of stuck throttle with gearbox out of gear (engine cut out, of a sort), esp. in braking zone?
3. he didn't spin the car which was obvious course of action (to lose some speed like with P25 brake failure depicted earlier in this thread, and to hit with rear end because of more advantageous stress distribution over the body- a fact he was well aware of)

What are we to make out of it? I don't think he missed the braking point, because there are competent observers testifying to 5.2 (apparently, Laurence Pomeroy among others). But before I try to come up with something, please tell me where was he supposed to make a mistake?

P.S. I think we can make some nice discussion over matter at hand...

[Bernd]

I have never discounted driver error in the Moss shunt and as far as I know Moss himself hasn't either. Graham Hill tended to be of the opinion that it was a simple mistake and that Moss had started an understeering slide round the outside of him and simply run out of road. I find this a plausible scenario on that particular corner where there is no room for error whatsoever.

But really we'll never know, he was in a Lotus that even Chapman had shaken his head at and I've heard the term sponge cake regarding the engine mounting so.....