26653 replies to this topic

[femi]

Jeez that was quick

LOL, hoping to pinch the Mclaren guy perhaps and probably a pointer that they haven't really figured it out yet.

Edited by femi, 11 March 2010 - 22:23.

[Gareth]

We have another thread for the rear wing discussion, let's keep it there so other people can read it too.

http://forums.autosp...w...80&start=80

People can read it here, afterall this thread is about the MP4-25.

The problem is that you have to scroll through pages of other discussion to pick out the relevant bits. Without that other thread you'd need to start reading at around page 150, what page are we on now? That would be a lot of reading just to catch up on and discuss the rear wing. It's interesting enough in it's own right...

For what it's worth, I agree with you both. I think this is a subject deserving of its own thread (especially as other teams will no doubt come up with their versions). It's also very relevent to the MP4-25 discussion. So I think there's space for discussion in both places.

For what it's worth (despite having posted in this one ) I'd tend towards Guizotia's view that the other thread is the better place to discuss the issue, as it doesn't get lost in amongst all the other issues. But that's just a matter of taste, not one of moderation, as I say there's space for discussion in both.

[undersquare]

Yes it was Sunday, the last test day. The day they began doing setups on the car with the upgrades.

Ah OK.

Well only 8.x hours to wait and we can see how it's looking...

I have a good feeling, anyway. But tbh quite enjoying the prospect of a techno war with Newey .

[Gareth]

Wrong way round.

Imagine a cooling slot that vents into the cockpit. Without the driver's knee there, that's what it does. There just so happens to be a duct connected to that all the way through to the back of the rear wing. When the driver happens to accidentally cover the cooling slot with his knee, instead of following the path of least resistance into the cockpit, the air travels down the duct and stalls the wing.

Which is just a coincidence.

The main function is to cool the cockpit, and unless the driver's knee just so happens to cover the cockpit opening, that's what it does. So, nothing moves, it's all static.

If you ban the driver's body from affecting the airflow, you essentially ban his head.

Cheers alex - awesome last line. Odds on Mac's lawyer using it if any rival does appeal this to the ICA have to be short ...

[F.M.]

I am very sorry, but I just have to post it here:

[undersquare]

As an aside it occurs to me the knee switch/chimney apparatus would be part of why it took all that time to fit Jense into the car when testing started.

[buzatlas]

As I understand the 25 escape being a donkey.
And it certainly provide them with a lot of speed to pass on the straits.
Still can they dominate this year?
I doubt it: the system will possibly not working perfectly yet (and for sure no advantage at all at low speed tracks).
And I'm convinced it will be banned in the future but can be a effective tool this year.

[OwenC93]

I am very sorry, but I just have to post it here:

Love it.

[jjcale]

Could you remind me which day you were there at Barca? Was it the Sunday?

Yes

[Wingnut]

As I understand the 25 escape being a donkey.
And it certainly provide them with a lot of speed to pass on the straits.
Still can they dominate this year?
I doubt it: the system will possibly not working perfectly yet (and for sure no advantage at all at low speed tracks).
And I'm convinced it will be banned in the future but can be a effective tool this year.

Either way, it will force rival teams into using precious resource developing the system which they had not planned for. So even if it is not working perfectly, it may well give them an advantage for at least the first few races. It's going to be interesting how fast the others can put theirs together, especially as there's no testing.

[undersquare]

Yes

It was a great report you did for us. Let's hope FP setup development can tidy things up a bit, then.

[jjcale]

The expressed pessimisms about the car have proved wrong so far. Even you stated that the car improved as the last day of testing went on but you need to remember that there was no way they were going to get the best out of that car on that one day. The drivers you mentioned could only present what they percieved but I would take the word of an outspoken Mclaren driver over theirs - JB stated that the car had no weakness to speak off.

The team are in Bahrain with further updates and I don't think those will just be on the car as decorations. I just don't agree with your best case scenario of 5th position and you accuse me of being irrepressibly optimistic?

I didnt say best case 5th. I said I expect 5th. 2 cars faster equals 5th. I said best case a podium in a nondramatic race (TBH I expect Redbull 1-2 or one Redbull and a Ferrari in front).

Do you think the other teams are not also bringing small updates?

Anyway this race is not being run on the Sunday of the last test in Barca. It is being held 2 weeks later on a different track in different conditions. The biggest unknown right now is not upgrades (except for Merc) it is how the higher temps will affect the various teams/drivers.

Edited by jjcale, 11 March 2010 - 22:45.

[werks prototype]

I am very sorry, but I just have to post it here:

[alexbiker]

thanks, that was my idea of how it worked also, but then if there is a valve in the duct, wouldnt it be a moveable aero device??

well thanks for the answer

The ventilators I work with daily switch flow using the Coanda effect - you can use a small flow of air - like the one flowing from the snorkel - to switch a large flow of air from one channel to another. They could be using the snorkel duct in the cockpit to favour flow into the wing, stalling the wing, whilst with the cockpit duct open it flows over the gearbox oil cooler, and the snorkel air cools the driver. This would involve no moving parts, only air pressure - no movable aerodynamic parts.

God it's a beautiful idea.

Edited by alexbiker, 11 March 2010 - 22:48.

[f1rules]

I am very sorry, but I just have to post it here:

priceless

About expectations, i truely exspect Hamilton to fight for the win.

[f1rules]

The ventilators I work with daily switch flow using the Coanda effect - you can use a small flow of air - like the one flowing from the snorkel - to switch a large flow of air from one channel to another - they could be using the snorkel to favour flow into the wing, stalling the wing, whilst with the cockpit duct open it flows over the gearbox oil cooler.

ah interesting, thanks a lot

[femi]

I didnt say best case 5th. I said I expect 5th. 2 cars faster equals 5th. I said best case a podium in a nondramatic race (TBH I expect Redbull 1-2 or one Redbull and a Ferrari in front).

Do you think the other teams are not also bringing small updates?

Anyway this race is not being run on the Sunday of the last test in Barca. It is being held 2 weeks later on a different track in different conditions. The biggest unknown right now is not upgrades (except for Merc) it is how the higher temps will affect the various teams/drivers.

The biggest unknowns right now are how much improvement or lack of the updates to each car would deliver and as you mentioned the effect of the higher ambient and track temperatures as you mentioned. With regards to Mclaren, the data collection methodology and the proven fact that their updates worked out of the box is a source of huge encouragement to me and I still maintain my view that the worst case scenario is a podium and that we may even have both cars on the podium.

[Wouter]

I admire your irrepressible optimism... Its not just my observation its Heidfeld's as well as other more knowledgeable observers. I am as much a fan as you are but I dont know what your opinion is based on .... how can it be worst case a podium with 4 teams so close at the top?

And, for that matter, Sauber/Williams/Force India not looking half bad either. Mclaren could well get a podium or even win the race, but a worst case scenario would be much worse than a podium "for sure".

[alexbiker]

ah interesting, thanks a lot

Here's a link to the advanced drawing I did with my engineering software (MS Paint):



This is my theory - they've made a fluid logic switch with no moving parts to turn the rear wing on or off at will.

1. Is the large mass flow of air coming from the airbox inlet in the roll hoop. It's enough to stall the wing or cool the gearbox.

Because of the Coanda effect, air will naturally stick to one side of the v-shaped split or the other, because that's what air does. It's an extension of the Bernoulli effect.

2. In usual driving, there's a small flow through port 2. This means that the airflow will "stick" the side of the V supplying the gearbox cooler (4) and the rear wing will work normally, and the vent in the cockpit is open, cooling the driver.

3. When the driver puts his knee over the cockpit vent, he seals it off. That means air flows into the control port (3) and switches the airflow from the gearbox cooler to the back side of the rear wing (5), stalling the wing and greatly increasing the straight line speed. The flow through 3 is greater than 2, so that's what happens.

As soon as he gets to the corner, the driver takes his knee off the vent, the cockpit is cooled, and the rear wing starts working again. No moving parts, no movable aerodynamic devices.

Powerfully clever.

Edited by alexbiker, 11 March 2010 - 23:23.

[OwenC93]

I'm not discussing it in this thread but Scarbs made an article.

http://scarbsf1.word...2010/03/11/235/

[Pharazon]

teams without a sharkfin or a whaletail will surely not be able to implement this without redisgning their engine cover completely right?

[alexbiker]

I've replied on Scarbs' site - I wonder if there's enough mass flow through a small snorkel into what must be both a small and very long tract to stall a two-foot wide wing moving at 200mph. Maybe this is it?

[alexbiker]

teams without a sharkfin or a whaletail will surely not be able to implement this without redisgning their engine cover completely right?

I can't see how they do it without redesigning their tub with a port to have airflow through, or a space in and around the airbox for the flow to go through.

[Pharazon]

I've replied on Scarbs' site - I wonder if there's enough mass flow through a small snorkel into what must be both a small and very long tract to stall a two-foot wide wing moving at 200mph. Maybe this is it?

all it needs to do is disrupt the airflow

[OwenC93]

Perhaps the air box inlet contributes a large factor and the central "snorkel" pushes it over the edge at high speed.

[alexbiker]

They'll be doing 190mph into turn 1 at Suzuka and needing the rear wing - this has to be an on/off system - if the airbox inlet were contributing, they could go fast enough to stall without driver input, at some point, and a headwind could stall the wing, maybe half way round the corner.

[Wouter]

They'll be doing 190mph into turn 1 at Suzuka and needing the rear wing - this has to be an on/off system - if the airbox inlet were contributing, they could go fast enough to stall without driver input, at some point, and a headwind could stall the wing, maybe half way round the corner.

There are some very fast corners at Barcelona too (turn 9?), presumably the system was tested there and worked fine.

[alexbiker]

There are some very fast corners at Barcelona too (turn 9?), presumably the system was tested there and worked fine.

I'm sure it did - I'm suggesting another way for how it works.

[OwenC93]

Stolen from the Sauber thread.

http://motorsport.ne...1mar/122wri.jpg

Edited by OwenC93, 11 March 2010 - 23:49.

[Guizotia]

Here's a link to the advanced drawing I did with my engineering software (MS Paint):



This is my theory - they've made a fluid logic switch with no moving parts to turn the rear wing on or off at will.

1. Is the large mass flow of air coming from the airbox inlet in the roll hoop. It's enough to stall the wing or cool the gearbox.

Because of the Coanda effect, air will naturally stick to one side of the v-shaped split or the other, because that's what air does. It's an extension of the Bernoulli effect.

2. In usual driving, there's a small flow through port 2. This means that the airflow will "stick" the side of the V supplying the gearbox cooler (4) and the rear wing will work normally, and the vent in the cockpit is open, cooling the driver.

3. When the driver puts his knee over the cockpit vent, he seals it off. That means air flows into the control port (3) and switches the airflow from the gearbox cooler to the back side of the rear wing (5), stalling the wing and greatly increasing the straight line speed. The flow through 3 is greater than 2, so that's what happens.

As soon as he gets to the corner, the driver takes his knee off the vent, the cockpit is cooled, and the rear wing starts working again. No moving parts, no movable aerodynamic devices.

Powerfully clever.

Very interesting, and that might mean that what we see as the "top" of the diffuser behind the beam wing, is actually a deflector to prevent this air flow from interacting with the diffuser.

[alexbiker]

This is really a test of the "New" FIA under Todt. It's been declared legal under the rules, everyone seems clear it's legal, but I'm sure some nasty bugger will protest it - will it be banned under a whim if certain teams moan?

Journalists report never being allowed close to the MP4-18, despite it never having been raced. Was this one of the secrets McLaren were hiding, waiting for a reasonable FIA to race it?

[mclarensmps]

hey big guns - you still doubt me?

Yes.

They already said that there was a modified diffuser coming to Bahrain, we knew this.

Can you tell me exactly how much time it brings to the car?

[Clatter]

This is really a test of the "New" FIA under Todt. It's been declared legal under the rules, everyone seems clear it's legal, but I'm sure some nasty bugger will protest it - will it be banned under a whim if certain teams moan?

Journalists report never being allowed close to the MP4-18, despite it never having been raced. Was this one of the secrets McLaren were hiding, waiting for a reasonable FIA to race it?

Do you seriously think they would have just sat back waiting for a change of leadership in the FIA to use this idea? And how did they keep it secret from Newey?

[raiseyourfistfor]

lol nope! He was running at the correct weight limit. It'd be Hamilton and Rosberg underweight. To be honest it would be a shock for any F1 driver to be on the pace due to the fact they don't drive karts as often.

However, you have to remember that the other weekend de Vries was owning drivers that Schumacher couldn't get near the other month in Las vegas.

This kid is the real deal!

Slow down big guy, a good karting driver does not always make a good F1 driver

[Clatter]

Slow down big guy, a good karting driver does not always make a good F1 driver

No, but it's a pretty good bet that a bad one won't make it.

[Alonzo]

After reading autosport article regarding Mclaren's vent, I think Mclaren is gonna win the first races untill the others have their own vent system.

[BiH]

there is no way this stall wing is the next dd diffusor. not a chance. according to scarbs it might give 3-4 km/h of top speed advantage.

[femi]

I wonder what F1 cars are going to look like next year - sieves?

[nawz]

there is no way this stall wing is the next dd diffusor. not a chance. according to scarbs it might give 3-4 km/h of top speed advantage.

Every little helps.

[BillBald]

Some people have been saying in this thread that the latest McLaren updates have been forced on them by the FIA, is there anything to this? I haven't seen it anywhere else.

[Clatter]

Some people have been saying in this thread that the latest McLaren updates have been forced on them by the FIA, is there anything to this? I haven't seen it anywhere else.

I can't find anything to suggest anything failed scrutineering either. Until I do I'm putting it down to wishful thinking by those that are worried about the Mac's speed.

[BillBald]

there is no way this stall wing is the next dd diffusor. not a chance. according to scarbs it might give 3-4 km/h of top speed advantage.

Being able to overtake might make a huge difference. For instance, you could maybe work on race setup without worrying about qualifying on the front row.

[teejay]

Do you really think macca did all this work for 4kmh on some straights?

Has to be alot more to it then that.

(I hope)

[Talisker]

Do you really think macca did all this work for 4kmh on some straights?

Has to be alot more to it then that.

(I hope)

According to my maths, that's potentially quite a significant gain.

Let's say that at a given circuit there is 250m of straight bits where the car would have done 250km/h but now does 254km/h because of the snorkel thing. It would have taken 0.25*3600/250 = 3.6 seconds to do these bits of track. It now takes 0.25*3600/254 = 3.54 seconds. That's 0.06 seconds a lap. Not to be sneezed at.

Obviously this is massively simplifying the numbers and assumptions, but it's probably reasonably conservative.

Edited by Talisker, 12 March 2010 - 01:49.

[mclarensmps]

Jeez that was quick

I found that hilarious

[New Britain]

According to my maths, that's potentially quite a significant gain.

Let's say that at a given circuit there is 250m of straight bits where the car would have done 250km/h but now does 254km/h because of the snorkel thing. It would have taken 0.25*3600/250 = 3.6 seconds to do these bits of track. It now takes 0.25*3600/254 = 3.54 seconds. That's 0.06 seconds a lap. Not to be sneezed at.

Obviously this is massively simplifying the numbers and assumptions, but it's probably reasonably conservative.

Also, that speed advantage would develop at those points on the circuit that tend to offer the best overtaking opportunities.

[BiH]

Also, that speed advantage would develop at those points on the circuit that tend to offer the best overtaking opportunities.

if they are not good in slow and medium corners then they wont be close enough to use it to overtake cars.

[klyster]

Maybe they could use the small vented tunnel to test a small model of next years car?

Multi purpose, multi-tasking McLaren

Edited by klyster, 12 March 2010 - 06:26.

[Mika Mika]

if they are not good in slow and medium corners then they wont be close enough to use it to overtake cars.

Well i think the point is that they can run more wing so will be good in the med speed corners.

[raiseyourfistfor]

Well i think the point is that they can run more wing so will be good in the med speed corners.

Yep you can have more downforce without losing any straight line speed.