5890 replies to this topic

[Risil]

At this rate, we'll have quite the showdown between MotoGP and WSBK in the next couple of years, given that they both seem to want to run to the same rules.

What chance the Evo class of Superstock/Superbike hybrids, due for introduction onto BSB grids next season, replaces the current Superbike regulations? Why, that would make Roger Edmondson a pioneer! And it would give Dorna a clear run at introducing production-based motors into their series.

But seriously, Glen Richards suggested when the new BSB rules were announced, that a stock-engine-and-spec-ECU would be the way to go for British Superbike.

Edited by Risil, 20 November 2009 - 21:46.

[Kaiser]

Here's a link to a neat video of Gardner talking about the 09 Superbikes after riding them all during the journo day.

http://www.superbike...ov/091120a9.htm

[Lazy Prodigy]

If that's a problem, just go with a mass produced simplified 1050cc engine.

Or a 1.2 litre V6

It's not about the displacement, its about "production based".

They got past that in moto2 because its a single engine produced by Honda that can be argued is not production based. If there was a generic motor for motogp there wouldn't be a problem, but when Peter Clifford arrives with an engine based on a R1 motor and Moriwaki one based on a fireblade motor, its another kettle of fish.

IMO a production derived engine in a prototype bike isn't an issue really as long as its just that. Once they start with production based other bits then it needs to be stopped.

It's okay. Let WSBK have their 1000cc exclusivity. motoGP should move to 1005cc or 1010cc for their new formula.

And this is what is so fascinating to me and others about this whole thing... and after reading this EVEN MORE SO! There is some good info in here if you are wondering about the line to a production engine here and what they are working to to make them prototype with crank cases, cylinder heads and bore & stroke ratios... AND POSSIBLE MIXED GRID...


http://moto-racing.s...-2011-pt-1//P1/

Edited by Lazy Prodigy, 21 November 2009 - 08:35.

[Atreiu]

In hindsight, it's a pity Moto GP didn't find a way to stick with "race whatever you want on 2 wheels" up to a 990cc engine.

[Kaiser]

I miss 2 strokes. The racing was better, the sound was unique, they smelled better and it was much cheaper. In hindsight the move to 4 strokes was a mistake. There's no going back now, but it'd be nice. I hope someone runs a 250 in moto2 next year and it's faster than the diesels.

[Risil]

I miss 2 strokes. The racing was better, the sound was unique, they smelled better and it was much cheaper. In hindsight the move to 4 strokes was a mistake. There's no going back now, but it'd be nice. I hope someone runs a 250 in moto2 next year and it's faster than the diesels.

Before the two-strokes were discontinued, it did look likely that the four-stroke World Superbike championship (let alone the AMA Superbike series) would eclipse Grand Prix racing. It was a sad move, and a lot was lost, but I think it really was a case of adapt or die for GP. They really savaged WSBK with the 990cc rule changes, it seemed to be a real territorial dispute.

[beanoid]

Rossi Qualifies 10th for the 6 Hours of Vallelunga

Not bad! Never driven a sportscar before. He was faster than the actual sportscar driver on the team in practice yesterday as well, even though he had a little off-track excursion.

[Risil]

Rossi Qualifies 10th for the 6 Hours of Vallelunga

Not bad! Never driven a sportscar before. He was faster than the actual sportscar driver on the team in practice yesterday as well, even though he had a little off-track excursion.

Oh God, it'll be Rossi-to-Le Mans now... On the other hand, with the way F1's going in a few years that'll mean something.

[beanoid]

I think that would be rather excellent, actually.

[beanoid]

Rossi at Vallelunga

Finished 11th overall, third in class--but only because of a mechanical problem that caused them to pit 10 minutes from the end. Before that, they were running fifth overall and second in class.

[CIN]

According to gpone.com, Rossi was first in class until a starter motor problem. After that was fixed his team was back 2nd (in class). Later when he was trying to close the gap, the Ferrari engine went up in flames and they had to stop. Got 3rd in class at the end. http://www.gpone.com....asp?NNews=5962

[Lazy Prodigy]

http://moto-racing.s...-2011-pt-2//P1/

[Gilles4Ever]

Yoshimura To Enter World Superbikes Series?

News emerging from Japan, however, suggests that at least one team is to swell the ranks of World Superbikes. More significant than the number of riders this team will bring is the name involved: It is not just any old team which is to make the jump from the All Japan Superbike championship, the team under discussion is Yoshimura Suzuki. The team has a long and rich history in the Japanese Superbike championship, with several JSB titles to its name, as well as wins in the prestigious Suzuka 8 hour race and a host of international events.

[Lazy Prodigy]

Wasnt there something about them switching manufactures awhile back?

[Chubby_Deuce]

Yoshimura? They've been with Suzuki forever, that would be a shocking decision.

[maczippy]

Yoshimura To Enter World Superbikes Series?

Maybe it's because I what I do but there were rumbling about this last year as far back as Miller....

[Lazy Prodigy]

Yoshimura? They've been with Suzuki forever, that would be a shocking decision.

Yes I know. I thought there was a motomatters article where, it said someone was switching to Yamaha. I dont remember what but it was a big team and a big rider.

[Risil]

Yes I know. I thought there was a motomatters article where, it said someone was switching to Yamaha. I dont remember what but it was a big team and a big rider.

Stiggy?

[Gilles4Ever]

Aprilia has announced it will not be competing in the Moto2 championship next year, as it believes it would be detrimental to its image.

and from earlier

Aspar to take over Aprilia Moto2 project?

[Risil]

Aprilia has announced it will not be competing in the Moto2 championship next year, as it believes it would be detrimental to its image.

Not sure why Moto2 doesn't allow the use of homologated 600s from other manufacturers. Forcing everyone to use Honda blocks seems to be driving away interest, if anything.

Edited by Risil, 24 November 2009 - 15:15.

[Gilles4Ever]

Driving away interest?

How many frame manufacturers in 250 this year?
How many engine manufacturers?
How many entries this year?

Now do the same for next year.

IMO stock engine keeps field close, cost down, Flamini out of court.

[Lazy Prodigy]

http://moto-racing.s...-2011-pt-3//P1/

Lets hope the legal battle gets sorted and this comes to pass, because there should be really interesting times ahead.

[Risil]

Driving away interest?

How many frame manufacturers in 250 this year?
How many engine manufacturers?
How many entries this year?

Now do the same for next year.

IMO stock engine keeps field close, cost down, Flamini out of court.

Surely that's as much to do with the fact that no one except Aprilia is really interested in building 250cc two-strokes anymore? 600s are an enormous market for Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki, as well as Honda. Don't see why stock versions of those engines shouldn't be allowed to be used -- the different engine characteristics should allow a greater variety of frames and teams to take advantage of them. What's good for (the proposed) Moto1 ought to be good for Moto2.

A single engine supplier will likely result in a single optimum chassis, which -- after a couple of exciting years -- leaves us exactly where we came in. Look at F3000 after the switch to Lola-Zyteks.

[primer]

600s are an enormous market for Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki, as well as Honda. Don't see why stock versions of those engines shouldn't be allowed to be used -- the different engine characteristics should allow a greater variety of frames and teams to take advantage of them.

If moto2 is allowed usage 'production based' 600cc motors it will be in competition with WSS. Two FIM series with very similar formula and two unhappy promoters fighting it out in courts. The 'prototype' 600cc Honda engine is a compromise of avoiding legal troubles. Another thing: while the different engines and bikes will be very interesting to us as viewers, the teams themselves might not have been so fascinated given the severe economic crisis.

It makes me wonder though, how on earth are they gonna get 'production based' 1000cc engines past WSBK? Carmelo Ezpeleta needs to grow a backbone and fight the battle for motoGP's future. The sooner this issue is tackled (and settled) the better. If some manufacturer announces sudden withdrawl from motoGP now, the situation could get perilous.

[Gilles4Ever]

Seems the "fixed bore and stroke" is the angle to keep the Flamini brothers at bay. I can see what Risil is saying about Moto2, I just dont think it is the class Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki or Kawasaki will throw money at right now if it were an "open" 600cc engine formula, a cheap "same for everybody" engine is great for the teams imo. And truth be told, Aprilia not playing is even better for the series. It really is a privateer team series now.

[Atreiu]

Feeder series, like 250/Moto 2 must be kept reasonably tight and controleed to prevent escalating costs and self defeating actions, like facing a legal battle it cannot win over techical regulations. Maybe 2010 will be a odd and weak year with all the new names and unknowns, but I think it'll quickly grow into us and vindicate itself.

Just wondering, how long is the Flamini's contract?

[Risil]

Seems the "fixed bore and stroke" is the angle to keep the Flamini brothers at bay. I can see what Risil is saying about Moto2, I just dont think it is the class Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki or Kawasaki will throw money at right now if it were an "open" 600cc engine formula, a cheap "same for everybody" engine is great for the teams imo. And truth be told, Aprilia not playing is even better for the series. It really is a privateer team series now.

The "same for everybody" engine, IMO, will be great for the series in the short-term. As the motor is by far the biggest performance differentiator on a motorbike, we'll see some close, inexpensive racing, possibly with few genuine no-hopers. Contrasted with 250 GP this year, where a competitive ride meant either a factory contract with Aprilia or Honda, or being Jules Cluzel. But once Moriwaki, Suter, or whoever get a grip on the competition and produce the uber-frame, there'll be one package to buy, and the cost/benefit equation will be suckier than it was in the recent Aprilia-dominated 250s. The same thing's pretty much happened in Indycars under the IRL, where a dominant package is maintained by moribund sporting regulations, and keeps the cost of competing too high.

I get the feeling we're coming to the end of the cosy separation of Superbike and Grand Prix. Dorna creating an undercard that mirrors WSBK's Supersport championship should be enough of a hint of that. But if the new Productotype rules are introduced, any semblance of philosophical differences between the two series will be lost. Of course, the MSMA will throw all in for one or the other, so there won't be a strung-out kind of war between the two. But I don't see both series existing five years from now.

[Atreiu]

Negotiations between FIM and Interlagos fail, no Moto GP here any time soon.
http://tazio.uol.com...p/textos/15241/


Basically, the demands FIM made (more run-off, knocking grandstands down, running clockwise) are just more Intelagos and SP can afford.

Edited by Atreiu, 26 November 2009 - 23:04.

[THE "driverider"]

Negotiations between FIM and Interlagos fail, no Moto GP here any time soon.
http://tazio.uol.com...p/textos/15241/


Basically, the demands FIM (more run-off, knocking grandstands down, running clockwise) are just more Intelagos and SP can afford.

No Point ruining the best circuit in F1 for Moto GP guys to complain it's too bumpy, maybe go to Curitiba?

[Atreiu]

Curitiba isn't suited for Moto GP. Too short and unsafe.
The race track here in Brasilia is in shambles, but could much easily be revamped for Moto GP. Easily compared to Interlagos, that is.

[carbuff]

If moto2 is allowed usage 'production based' 600cc motors it will be in competition with WSS. Two FIM series with very similar formula and two unhappy promoters fighting it out in courts. The 'prototype' 600cc Honda engine is a compromise of avoiding legal troubles. Another thing: while the different engines and bikes will be very interesting to us as viewers, the teams themselves might not have been so fascinated given the severe economic crisis.

It makes me wonder though, how on earth are they gonna get 'production based' 1000cc engines past WSBK? Carmelo Ezpeleta needs to grow a backbone and fight the battle for motoGP's future. The sooner this issue is tackled (and settled) the better. If some manufacturer announces sudden withdrawl from motoGP now, the situation could get perilous.

Going OT: Primer who's the gal in your avatar? Can't take me eyes off her...

[Nova]

Going OT: Primer who's the gal in your avatar? Can't take me eyes off her...

Just a bit of warning. When Primer give you a link to this gal there will be pictures of a scantily dressed woman, just in case you want to avoid such filth on the net. Sadly to late for me, when I realized where the link went it was already to late.

[ehagar]

Negotiations between FIM and Interlagos fail, no Moto GP here any time soon.
http://tazio.uol.com...p/textos/15241/


Basically, the demands FIM made (more run-off, knocking grandstands down, running clockwise) are just more Intelagos and SP can afford.

Saw that coming a mile away. The place is not suited for Grand Prix or World Superbikes. I would avoid the place based on past history alone. It came close to a Riders revolt back in the Rainey/Lawson era and they have never been back since. There is nothing to suggest that they have made substancial improvements or have the willpower to do so. The place was a wreck several years ago when signage started falling.

I love the track layout and think F1 should put up with the places inconveniences because at the end of the day its worth it. But by no means is it worth putting riders lives at risk.

It's sad that the Rio track went away, it wasn't epic by any stretch of the imagination but it seemed to put on a good show. But again, bending over backwards for Panam/Olympic games. Too bad.

[bonneville]

SBK lineup updated to include Broc Parkes on a private Honda.

[primer]

Going OT: Primer who's the gal in your avatar? Can't take me eyes off her...

Miranda Kerr....and no links this time. ↓

Just a bit of warning. When Primer give you a link to this gal there will be pictures of a scantily dressed woman, just in case you want to avoid such filth on the net. Sadly to late for me, when I realized where the link went it was already to late.

/ /

You might wanna learn the hover-the-pointer-over-a-URL 'trick', boss.

[primer]

De Angelis To Sit Out A Year?

This gives an idea what a difficult time this is for motorsports. ADA can't find sponsorship (or enough sponsorship) for moto2!

[Gilles4Ever]

Interesting that Ducati were ready to supply them with a bike.

[Nova]

Miranda Kerr....and no links this time. ↓



/ /

You might wanna learn the hover-the-pointer-over-a-URL 'trick', boss.

Hey, you know me from the PC, don't spoil my fun as a BA

[Lazy Prodigy]

Interesting that Ducati were ready to supply them with a bike.

scared to ride the gp10 maybe

[Kaiser]

Yoshimura? They've been with Suzuki forever, that would be a shocking decision.

Unless I've missed something this is ther Yosh team from Japan talking about a few wildcard races for a Japanese rider, not the Yosh team from California. Stiggy was rumored to be switching to Yamahas this year, they weren't ahppy with the support they received from Honda. Any club racer could have told them that.

[giddyup409]

from crash.net:

2010 World Superbike Championship - confirmed signings:

Factory teams:
1. Noriyuki Haga JPN Ducati Xerox
2. Michel Fabrizio ITA Ducati Xerox
3. James Toseland GBR Yamaha Sterilgarda
4. Cal Crutchlow GBR Yamaha Sterilgarda
5. Jonathan Rea GBR Ten Kate Honda*
6. Max Neukirchner GER Ten Kate Honda*
7. Leon Haslam GBR Suzuki Alstare
8. Sylvain Guintoli FRA Suzuki Alstare
9. Chris Vermeulen AUS Kawasaki SRT
10. Tom Sykes GBR Kawasaki SRT
11. Max Biaggi ITA Aprilia Racing
12. Leon Camier GBR Aprilia Racing
13. Troy Corser AUS BMW
14. Ruben Xaus ESP BMW

Other teams
15. Carlos Checa ESP Althea Ducati
16. Shane Byrne GBR Althea Ducati
17. Jakub Smrz CZE Guandalini Racing
18. Broc Parkes AUS Echo CRS Honda

* Honda believes it is misleading to call Ten Kate a 'factory team'.

beautiful, can't wait to see the lads racing. ahh... it's still Nov

[Risil]

GSE Racing about to close. Terrible, if not unexpected news. HM Plant are thought to be in a similarly precarious position.

With this and the current difficulties faced by the AMA series, I think the viability of Superbike has to be questioned.

[ehagar]

Not really... if Airwaves Yamaha & HM Plant go away BSB might be *really* competitive. There is a decent sized field.

As for AMA, most of its problems are self induced. The incompetent management just made it easier for the factories to withdraw support.

Edited by ehagar, 30 November 2009 - 22:11.

[Risil]

Not really... if Airwaves Yamaha & HM Plant go away BSB might be *really* competitive. There is a decent sized field.

As for AMA, most of its problems are self induced. The incompetent management just made it easier for the factories to withdraw support.

It depends on how well this hybrid Evo class takes off. If Superstock engines and ECUs, with Superbike chassis can be competitive with full Superbikes, at far reduced cost, then I think they'll become standard equipment in the next few years. Wasn't that what AMA Pro wanted with 2009's rule changes? And obviously from the other side, MotoGP seems increasingly likely to be encroaching upon the more prototypical end of the production series idea.

And BSB's problems go right down the field. AFAIK Hydrex Honda, the most impressive non-works outfit, are still unsure as to what and how they'll be running next year. With Stiggy's Superbike programme unlikely to survive the winter, their engine supply will have to be rethought. Rob Mac look like they're going ahead, but without a shitload of development and support, the Yamaha just isn't competitive -- it was the paying for this that did for the Airwaves team. MSS Kawasaki did the season without traction control, which gives an idea of their level of support and funding. Suzuki are falling back alarmingly outside of America (actually, if it wasn't for Mat Mladin, they'd have had an average season even in AMA), even with decent works support the Crescent team aren't really front-runners.

I guess what I'm saying, is that with a big national series like BSB, 'competitive' isn't just relative to the guys you race every week. You want them to be a match for the best squads in the world, at least on your own terms, at your own tracks. I do agree, though, that if you take GSE out of the picture, the title's anyone's. Which will be enough to get me down to Brands in April.

[Chubby_Deuce]

AMA just got worse, by the way. All that prize money that was promised went poof for 2010.

[carbuff]

Miranda Kerr....and no links this time. ↓



/ /

You might wanna learn the hover-the-pointer-over-a-URL 'trick', boss.

Thanks buddy!

[ex Rhodie racer 2]

from crash.net:

Factory teams:
1. Noriyuki Haga JPN Ducati Xerox
2. Michel Fabrizio ITA Ducati Xerox
3. James Toseland GBR Yamaha Sterilgarda
4. Cal Crutchlow GBR Yamaha Sterilgarda
5. Jonathan Rea GBR Ten Kate Honda*
6. Max Neukirchner GER Ten Kate Honda*
7. Leon Haslam GBR Suzuki Alstare
8. Sylvain Guintoli FRA Suzuki Alstare
9. Chris Vermeulen AUS Kawasaki SRT
10. Tom Sykes GBR Kawasaki SRT
11. Max Biaggi ITA Aprilia Racing
12. Leon Camier GBR Aprilia Racing
13. Troy Corser AUS BMW
14. Ruben Xaus ESP BMW

The ones in bold type are the riders I think will excell in their respective teams.
I would love to know what others think.

[Atreiu]

It seems BMW were very conservative with their line-up.
I guess they must be happy.

Fabrizio is way more mistake prone than Haga, and he does seem to go off the radar with no reason. I expect Haga to have the better of him again.

[Risil]

The ones in bold type are the riders I think will excell in their respective teams.
I would love to know what others think.

I'm not convinced, as of yet, by Camier, with the level of equipment he had he should have put the bike on the podium at Donington. Of course he couldn't have done any better in BSB this year, but there were a lot of extenuating circumstances. I think he's on the level of Byrne, Sykes and Haslam. 2011 with the new Kawasaki will be the definitive year for Vermeulen, but I'd expect a significant improvement on the results Parkes, Tamada and Morais were logging. Crutchlow would be my bet for the title; he's shown phenomenal pace on 600s and litre bikes over the last two seasons. He was just on another planet in Supersport this year.

[santori]

I'm predicting Max Biaggi for the championship, although that's as much a hope as a predicition. I think Camier will do well, though.

I'd expect Haga to keep a small edge over Fabrizio but I didn't expect Fabrizio to take such a step forward this year. It'll only take a small step more for him to come out on top.

Haslam over Guintoli but only because of his experience. I expect them both to do well.

And Rea and Neukirchner... I'll flip a coin. Oh.

It landed on its edge.

Edited by santori, 01 December 2009 - 15:41.