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Why not Schumacher to Mercedes GP (formerly Brawn GP)? (merged)


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#601 Italiano Tifoso

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 13:55

Todt and Luca I understand but if there was bad blood with Michael, why did they keep him as a "consultant"? Todt was pushed out only a year after MS left.
2 contracts? What is this about?

I will make this quick, flight boarding in 5min.

The relationship with Luca and Todt was definitely worse, but there was a bad period with Michael during and directly after Monza 2006 due to how Luca managed the whole process. I explained this in an earlier post. These wounds have been healed more or less and Michael has obviously very strong ties to Ferrari beyond Luca. The schumacher brand is pretty valuable for Ferrari and vice versa so the consultant status works for both.

Todt was pushed out after his contract came up, and Luca although not getting along with Todt knew that he needed him in 2007 as he had just lost Michael and Brawn.

2 Contracts, one was a pre agreement with Alonso, the second the definitive one, i spoke about this also around the time.

Sorry Klover, gotta go.

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#602 KiloWatt

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 13:55

Myself, i am not in the automotive industry, actually in the cleantech space. I just happen to be fortunate enough to know a few people through nothing more than day to day business dealings. Recently i acquired a direct connection to Virgin F1 heads at the highest level also, they are well across the Brawn/Schumacher/Mercedes issue.

One of my other associates is well connected within Ferrari, confirmed both Kimi's move to Ferrari, the "bad blood" within the team between Luca, Todt and Michael, and Alonso's signed contract/s (there were two) well before the media reported on it.

I have heard now from both of my contacts that Michaels deal is done, the only question is length of contract apparently. Heard the same info from two different sources who actually don't know each other. So unless they both have the same source (unlikely i think) then i thought this was good enough to present on the forum.

I will actually be in London during the Virgin F1 launch on the 15th, and actually right now sitting in Singapore airport lounge waiting for a flight to Heathrow and onto Geneva where i will be staying with a senior FOM figure and F1 shareholder for 4 days. I wont release her name but there aren't that many female shareholders of F1.

I hope that provides a bit of clarity for you while still preserving the identity of my sources.

I released the info on Schumi that i have to see if others who have contacts can support it. As a tifoso i am very conflicted with Michael racing for Merc, he has brought me so much joy over the years and i think he is about to bring me so much pain also. Although less so, once a Ferrari driver, always a Ferrari driver, but this move to Merc is really a hard pill to swallow. I wish him well, but i still wish Ferrari to win the titles, with Michael close behind.

Anyhow, have a great day. About to board a flight.


Wonderfull! Thank you!

I hope you didn't too upset about that. It really isn't suspicion of bad intent. It's just so hard to trust anything someone says nowadays. And your reasons for posting is perfectly valid and, in your position, I'd have done exactly the same.

Your business sounds an interesting one if you manage to build up that amount and quality of contacts. I'm jeolous!

Unlike you, however, I DO hope the rumours are very very true. I'd love for MS to drive a merc. I think I might just get stupidly druk of excitement if it's confirmed. Rosberg is ok, but he has yet to prove himself. And Heidfeld is fast, but again, needs to prove himself. So I'll be right chuffed if they can lure MS. It'll be a nice "**** You" to McLaren, whom I thankfully don't have to like anymore. Happy day!

Anywho, thanks for the info. All of it. I hope you have a safe flight.
Cheers
:up:

#603 the9th

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 13:58

See post #583. But great that you can support the info; i wonder how long until the main stream media grabs this?

Well, to be honest I have to say it comes out of intuition. From the moment Montezemolo started talking of a third car I kinda new they'd open a berth at Brawn.
But glad you can confirm (It's done then), because I'm willing to mitigate my anti-Scu stance. Hope it comes out on Xmas day. :)

#604 klover

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 14:04

I will make this quick, flight boarding in 5min.

The relationship with Luca and Todt was definitely worse, but there was a bad period with Michael during and directly after Monza 2006 due to how Luca managed the whole process. I explained this in an earlier post. These wounds have been healed more or less and Michael has obviously very strong ties to Ferrari beyond Luca. The schumacher brand is pretty valuable for Ferrari and vice versa so the consultant status works for both.

Todt was pushed out after his contract came up, and Luca although not getting along with Todt knew that he needed him in 2007 as he had just lost Michael and Brawn.

2 Contracts, one was a pre agreement with Alonso, the second the definitive one, i spoke about this also around the time.

Sorry Klover, gotta go.

That matches the article in Business F1 about the strange story of MS retirement and the comments about the body language between the two at Monza.
Sorry, I misunderstood - I thought you meant two definitive contracts and wondered why he didn't move earlier.


#605 Galko877

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 14:05

I have not been this excited about F1 since the deciding race of 2007!

Welcome back, Michael! :clap:

#606 craftverk

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 14:12

And Heidfeld is fast, but again, needs to prove himself.

And how does he need to prove himself exactly? :well:

#607 Owen

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 14:16

IF it comes to pass. Can I just say that many here predicted he would tie up with (as it was) Brawn F1 a long, long time ago.
Well done armchair silly season pundits, but you can only feel smug when/if he signs on the dotted line. :)

#608 KiloWatt

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 14:19

And how does he need to prove himself exactly? :well:


Ok, I expected this. I'm not saying he can't win a race or a championship. OK, you know what. I might have expressed myself wrongly. Let me rephrase what I mean.

What I meant was, that I'd prefer an estabished winning driver in one of the seats. From a supporter point of view, it would make me feel a whole lot better knowing that the guy has won some races. I do believe it takes a different temperament to win a race and not choke somewhere in the process. You know how it goes. A driver is on his way to win a race and he misses his brake point to the pits, runs over the white line, spins out, crashes into a backmarker, etc.

Yes, I know the guy is FAST! He's proven that. And he probably deserves the seat as much as anyone. BUT, he hasn't proven he has the temperament to win a race. That's what I meant by proving himself.

I'm not saying he can't win a race. But I have no proof that he can.

#609 Clatter

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 14:20

And how does he need to prove himself exactly? :well:


Well the top teams have not been banging on his door with contracts in hand, so it would appear he still has something to prove.

#610 Frans

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 14:26

Seems many Tifosi's are going Anti-Schumacher soon heh ...... :wave:

#611 Owen

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 14:27

Seems many Tifosi's are going Anti-Schumacher soon heh ...... :wave:

Yeh, will await kar's reaction with interest...

#612 craftverk

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 14:27

Ok, I expected this. I'm not saying he can't win a race or a championship. OK, you know what. I might have expressed myself wrongly. Let me rephrase what I mean.

What I meant was, that I'd prefer an estabished winning driver in one of the seats. From a supporter point of view, it would make me feel a whole lot better knowing that the guy has won some races. I do believe it takes a different temperament to win a race and not choke somewhere in the process. You know how it goes. A driver is on his way to win a race and he misses his brake point to the pits, runs over the white line, spins out, crashes into a backmarker, etc.

Yes, I know the guy is FAST! He's proven that. And he probably deserves the seat as much as anyone. BUT, he hasn't proven he has the temperament to win a race. That's what I meant by proving himself.

I'm not saying he can't win a race. But I have no proof that he can.

So there really is no reason as to why you think he needs to 'prove' himself? That's what I gathered anyway.

#613 the9th

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 14:29

IF it comes to pass. Can I just say that many here predicted he would tie up with (as it was) Brawn F1 a long, long time ago.
Well done armchair silly season pundits, but you can only feel smug when/if he signs on the dotted line. :)

I cannot tell a lie... :smoking:

#614 One

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 14:30

I am posting what I think, and would this make me a lier?

#615 KiloWatt

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 14:37

So there really is no reason as to why you think he needs to 'prove' himself? That's what I gathered anyway.


Oh common man, did you not read my message? The whole winning temperament thing? Drivers chocking?

He has the speed to win, I believe. He needs to prove he has the temperament (the mental calmness and control) to win as well. Winning = speed + temperament. I believe it's what's referred to as "A complete driver".

I'm not saying he doesn't have it. He may well have it. But we can't know for sure. Yes, yes, I know, then he needs to be given the opportunity. But alas, the selfish fan within would prefer another team take that gamble and not our beloved Mercedes GP.

#616 the9th

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 14:39

I am posting what I think, and would this make me a lier?

In your case, yes! Because what you think does not concur with reality... :p
Besides, you don't really think that.

#617 klover

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 14:39

Yeh, will await kar's reaction with interest...

Is kar a tifoso or a schufoso? The schufosi are not to be confused with the tifosi.

#618 Owen

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 14:44

Is kar a tifoso or a schufoso? The schufosi are not to be confused with the tifosi.

We may be about to find out.

#619 craftverk

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 14:45

Oh common man, did you not read my message? The whole winning temperament thing? Drivers chocking?

He has the speed to win, I believe. He needs to prove he has the temperament (the mental calmness and control) to win as well. Winning = speed + temperament. I believe it's what's referred to as "A complete driver".

I'm not saying he doesn't have it. He may well have it. But we can't know for sure. Yes, yes, I know, then he needs to be given the opportunity. But alas, the selfish fan within would prefer another team take that gamble and not our beloved Mercedes GP.

Why do you feel the need to question his temperament? He's no gamble at all, I consider him one of the safest options when actually looking back on his career...

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#620 klover

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 14:46

We may be about to find out.

If MS does sign up with Brawn/Mercedes, the hysteria and hype will reach unbelieavable levels. Just for the entertainment value on the forum I hope he does it.

#621 Owen

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 14:48

If MS does sign up with Brawn/Mercedes, the hysteria and hype will reach unbelieavable levels. Just for the entertainment value on the forum I hope he does it.

Me too. It will create one big sh*tstorm. He's such a 'divider' of opinion that his presence will just make 2010 about 500 times more interesting.

#622 KiloWatt

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 14:58

Why do you feel the need to question his temperament? He's no gamble at all, I consider him one of the safest options when actually looking back on his career...


In a sentence? Well, because I don't know if it exists. Again, I'm not saying it doesn't, I sincerely don't know. I want to see the man in a make or break high pressure situation where he needs to race fast and smart and under pressure. If he then wins, then I'd say he'd have done enough to be considered as having the temperament for winning a race.

#623 Ramses1348

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 15:02

If MS does sign up with Brawn/Mercedes, the hysteria and hype will reach unbelieavable levels. Just for the entertainment value on the forum I hope he does it.


I was a MS "hater" when he was driving (altough I was only doing my hating on private, I was not participating to any board), but I have learned to appreciate him since he left... and I find myself now really wanting to see him back :drunk: Kind of the same as it was for Lance Armstrong in fact :stoned:

And the prospect of having posts of seanvalen in every post qualy and post race topics is just the icing on the cake :p

#624 WebBerK

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 15:31

What a childish comment!

Has it occured to you that maybe he doesn't come back to "outdo" anybody, but for his own fun?

Are you talking about Schumacher ?
The guy that did all those dirty things to win in F1 ?

#625 robracer

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 16:22

In a sentence? Well, because I don't know if it exists. Again, I'm not saying it doesn't, I sincerely don't know. I want to see the man in a make or break high pressure situation where he needs to race fast and smart and under pressure. If he then wins, then I'd say he'd have done enough to be considered as having the temperament for winning a race.


He won F3000 10 years ago, but hasn't had a chance to win a race since then. If you want to find out whether he has the temperament to win then you should want him in the Mercedes, not Schumacher.

#626 Johny Bravo

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 16:25

If you want to find out whether he has the temperament to win then you should want him in the Mercedes, not Schumacher.


Though if You dont have the time / money to experiment with a driver (and gamble with your team), You go for the proven winner.

#627 CaptainJackSparrow

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 16:26

It's not going to happen according to James Allen:
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/

and he's right, Ferrari would have be nuts to let him go.

#628 Spa95

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 16:28

Michael Schmidt's take on it - "More than just a pipe dream": http://translate.goo...=...l=&ie=UTF-8

#629 Owen

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 16:29

It's not going to happen according to James Allen:
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/

and he's right, Ferrari would have be nuts to let him go.

That's all well and good but if he doesn't want to stay at Ferrari, can't he just leave anyway? What are they gonna do, put him in jail?

#630 salamin

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 16:35

It's not going to happen according to James Allen:
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/

and he's right, Ferrari would have be nuts to let him go.


I wouldn't give JA too much credit on this. He's just a PR puppet for ferrari as of now.

#631 Rinehart

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 16:35

IF it comes to pass. Can I just say that many here predicted he would tie up with (as it was) Brawn F1 a long, long time ago.
Well done armchair silly season pundits, but you can only feel smug when/if he signs on the dotted line. :)


Ok I'll bite. I am still resolutely clinging to the belief that this Schuey-Mercedes deal most definately WON'T happen. They (Merc/MS camp) are jerking the media chain and the media are jerking ours. Its all a bit of harmless PR panto. Defo info from armchair expert enterprises.

(I suppose the good news for some of you is that this will probably happen now!).

#632 Rob

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 16:37

Ok I'll bite. I am still resolutely clinging to the belief that this Schuey-Mercedes deal most definately WON'T happen. They (Merc/MS camp) are jerking the media chain and the media are jerking ours. Its all a bit of harmless PR panto. Defo info from armchair expert enterprises.


I agree with you. I bet the Mercedes representatives aren't allowed to talk about negotiations at all, which prohibits them officially denying the Schumacher rumour.

Although, I also agree with you in that it'll probably happen now that I've said that :)

#633 Owen

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 16:38

Ok I'll bite. I am still resolutely clinging to the belief that this Schuey-Mercedes deal most definately WON'T happen. They (Merc/MS camp) are jerking the media chain and the media are jerking ours. Its all a bit of harmless PR panto. Defo info from armchair expert enterprises.

(I suppose the good news for some of you is that this will probably happen now!).

:lol: We shall see. I admire your bravery on the prediction though.

#634 CaptainJackSparrow

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 16:38

That's all well and good but if he doesn't want to stay at Ferrari, can't he just leave anyway? What are they gonna do, put him in jail?


No but they sure can sue him, he just signed a 3 year contract, and he is worth big bucks to Ferrari, so unless MS wants to pay up a fortune in damages I suspect he would stay.

#635 Owen

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 16:41

No but they sure can sue him, he just signed a 3 year contract, and he is worth big bucks to Ferrari, so unless MS wants to pay up a fortune in damages I suspect he would stay.

Then he needs some good legal advice. Maybe that's why this whole thing is so protracted.

#636 salamin

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 16:41

No but they sure can sue him, he just signed a 3 year contract, and he is worth big bucks to Ferrari, so unless MS wants to pay up a fortune in damages I suspect he would stay.


i thought that contract was never signed

#637 CaptainJackSparrow

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 16:45

i thought that contract was never signed


I thought his manager said he signed?

In any case, you can see how Ferrari would be the big loser in such a switch and why they won't let him go, what business manager in his right mind would.

#638 Owen

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 16:47

I thought his manager said he signed?

In any case, you can see how Ferrari would be the big loser in such a switch and why they won't let him go, what business manager in his right mind would.

I suppose my point would be that it's not Ferrari's decision to make (to hold him against his will effectively). Surely this situation is not without precedent.

#639 klover

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 16:48

i thought that contract was never signed

Someone, not sure if it were James Allen again, reported it was a gentleman's agreement and he can walk away but Ferrari would not like it.

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#640 salamin

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 16:50

I thought his manager said he signed?

In any case, you can see how Ferrari would be the big loser in such a switch and why they won't let him go, what business manager in his right mind would.


true that, on the other hand MS has a HUGE fan base, so if the merc deal goes down the drain it would have some negativ effect on the rep of ferrari

#641 Nuvol

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 16:54

Allen is moron. Ferrari wont make any troubles for Schu. For everything he has done for them, they will just kiss him in his big cheek and thats it.

Edited by Nuvol, 10 December 2009 - 16:54.


#642 Owen

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 16:55

If I was Keke I would be a bit upset at the thought of my son having MS as his team mate.

#643 klover

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 16:59

Allen is moron. Ferrari wont make any troubles for Schu. For everything he has done for them, they will just kiss him in his big cheek and thats it.

Didn't Italian Tifoso claim that MS was privy to the development of next year's car and could possibly take a lot of information to his old friend Ross? If that is true, I doubt they will be hugs and kisses.

#644 salamin

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 17:00

Allen is moron. Ferrari wont make any troubles for Schu. For everything he has done for them, they will just kiss him in his big cheek and thats it.


exactly, and IIRC there was an articel on f1live, where LDM said that they would let michael go if he's serious about the comeback

#645 CaptainJackSparrow

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 17:02

true that, on the other hand MS has a HUGE fan base, so if the merc deal goes down the drain it would have some negativ effect on the rep of ferrari


Sure but think how closely MS is tied in with the Ferrari and their products, and what a high profile he maintains, even now. I mean Ferrari have put years and years and years of work into MS (and vice versa), to then lose that, actually, not even lose it but give it away to one of your main competitors?! That would be business madness, I mean imagine if it was you in Luca's shoes, would you let him go? Hell no, oh hell no!:p

#646 ThomFi

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 17:03

So what if MS comes back?

It will never outdo Nikki Lauda's feat of coming back after a massive shunt and a screwed face and lungs and psyco damage about the crash, the trapped body and the fire.

...


Yeah right, what is Schumacher thinking. Laudas tragic accident, that nearly cost him his life, really raised the bar in that “competition”. Schumacher can’t beat that, he should better stay away.


#647 Rob

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 17:04

Allen is moron. Ferrari wont make any troubles for Schu. For everything he has done for them, they will just kiss him in his big cheek and thats it.


Business doesn't work like that.

#648 Claudius

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 17:05

No way MS is coming back IMO.
Like some other poster said I believe it's a PR opportunity (mostly for Mercedes), and they're extracting every last bit of it.


So far it seems to me it's the antis that are anticipating his return with fervour.
I guess that's what happens when their driver gets fired for poor driving...



#649 Claudius

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 17:08

Yeah right, what is Schumacher thinking. Laudas tragic accident, that nearly cost him his life, really raised the bar in that “competition”. Schumacher can’t beat that, he should better stay away.


:lol:
You'll hear everything here.
"MS will never beat Laudas comeback!!!"



#650 KiloWatt

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 17:17

He won F3000 10 years ago, but hasn't had a chance to win a race since then. If you want to find out whether he has the temperament to win then you should want him in the Mercedes, not Schumacher.


As I said previously in my conversation, I'd prefer another team take that gamble. Selfish fan and all that...but I'd hate my beloved Mercedes GP not be competitive due a driver error...