1997 replies to this topic

[One]

Do we have already a thread on Sauber 2010?


As I hope Mr. Sauber's team will be on grid it will be good to start a new one on his name. I note some questions to start with.



Some questions.

1. WHo is this US investor which SpeedTV.com talks about.
http://formula-one.s...-rescue-effort/
The company is KNOWN to F1 and will be welcomed by Mr.B

2. What is the plan of Theissen? He is still around. Is he thinking about buying out the team?

3. Wy is BMW still spending their money? Is Theissen and the board of BMW directors in a some kind of confrontation, which Theissen decided to complete spending that he is allowed to do it by the board?

4. ...

[highdownforce]

Silliest season ever!

[metz]

The uncertain situation surrounding the current BMW Sauber team requires some speculation and resolution.
As it stands today we know that:
-BMW did not sign the new Concord Agreement, which should have been our first clue that all was not well with the team.
-Peter Sauber is still 20% owner of the BMW team.
-He made an offer to BMW to purchase the team with the help of several Swiss investors.
-BMW turned him down on the basis that the funds were not enough.
-Munich then decides to sell the team to Qadbak Investments, fronted by a known con artist.
-BMW's grid position is given to another team.
-Toyota's departure was not an automatic slot on the grid.
-Seems the FIA first wants to hear Toyota's intentions and then decide on the appropriate fine to levy on them for breaking the CA agreement.
-Renault wants to see what such a fine would be before they decide to possibly follow suit.
-As the Qadbak purchase grows in confusion, there is still no deposit paid. Not even into escrow.
-FOTA has said that they will make necessary accomadations to allow the team to enter, only provided respected Peter Sauber is involved.
-Frank Williams has refused to grant admission to a 14th team under any circumstances.
-Recently, Peter Sauber seems to have found a significant investor in America.
http://www.motorspor...r_09112609.html
-Article in German and again mostly speculation but from a fairly reliable site.
-It states that the FIA will make a decision on Sauber within the next two weeks
-Meanwhile, Nick Heidfeld has stayed true to the team, believing that Himwil has, or can produce a winning car for next year.

Where is this all going?
Let's see if we can discuss the developments here.

[highdownforce]

Where is this all going?
Let's see if we can discuss the developments here.

The question now is how big is this investor.

[metz]

The German article states that the investor has been very interested since July. He's not new.
What is new is that he (they) are teaming with Peter.
The Speed artice and subsequent discussion seems to be about Bernie. It's not.

I'm going to call my friends at Target. See what they know.

[PNSD]

I really do think a big NASCAR team could bring F1's popularity up in the US.

[metz]

Any big name, like McDonald's or Coka Cola would.

But, apparently this is a well known investment company.

Edited by metz, 26 November 2009 - 21:00.

[One]

Any big name, like McDonald's or Coka Cola would.

But, apparently this is a well known investment company.

HP?

[ryan86]

http://en.wikipedia....tment_companies

It would probably be on this page then I guess? Atlas F1 Team perhaps?

[metz]

About the money. This is what AMuS said.

Dem Vorschlag der FIA, das Geld auf ein Sperrkonto einzuzahlen, ist Qadbak bislang ebenfalls nicht nachgekommen. Was die Frage aufwirft, welche Strategie hinter einem solchen Gebaren steckt. Skeptiker wittern natürlich sofort Betrug, doch das ist nicht zwingend notwendig. Qadbak oder wer auch immer dahinter steckt, könnte so gerechnet haben: Mit der Startplatzgarantie fließen die Altlasten von Bernie Ecclestone gegenüber BMW (42 Millionen Dollar) und die üblichen Auszahlungen (rund 35 Millionen Dollar für Platz sechs). Dazu gibt es Sponsorgelder. Mit dem Geld zahlen wir BMW aus. Wäre das wirklich der Plan gewesen, wäre das ziemlich naiv gedacht. Erstens fließen Ecclestones Zuschüsse nur im Quartal, zweitens gehen Experten davon aus, dass Ecclestone die Altschulden einbehält, um BMW für den Ausstieg zu bestrafen.

The FIA's suggestion that Quadbak's funds be paid into a holding account was not taken up. This begs the question as to what strategy lies behind such refusal. Perhaps they felt that with the guaranteed grid slot, the money owed BMW would flow. They are owed $42mil in TV revenue and about $32 mil for finishing 6th in the WCC. In addition, there is sponsorship funding. This gets close to the $80 - $100 mil asking price for the team. If the new investors were counting on these funds to pay out BMW, it was a naive plan. First off, Bernie only pays out quarterly. Secondly, experts believe Bernie will probably find a way to keep ALL the money, as a way to punish BMW for leaving.

As usual. It's all about the money.

[Lukin83]

-Meanwhile, Nick Heidfeld has stayed true to the team, believing that Himwil has, or can produce a winning car for next year.

That's the most interesting part. Theoretically Sauber has it all to build a championship contender - experienced engineers, great resources and BMW funding till the end of the year. Sad that without a grid slot the team is nothing more than a sinking ship, and even Nick seems to be quite desperate to leave it (assuming rumors about his departure to USGP are true).

[Chezrome]

I really do think a big NASCAR team could bring F1's popularity up in the US.

Yeah! Penske F1!

[Bbbut]

3. Wy is BMW still spending their money? Is Theissen and the board of BMW directors in a some kind of confrontation, which Theissen decided to complete spending that he is allowed to do it by the board?

Most people here do not get how a major corporation works.

All decisions regarding spending money are done 1 year in advance. Every department gets allocated its budget at the beginning of the fiscal year. And F1 is just a subdivision of the motorsport section of BMW.

At the end of the season Theissen gets told how much money he can calculate with for the next season. He is a small employee, he never has a say in this process.

Exceptions are only made for special projects like the KERS development last year. Theissen only got extra money from the board because he promised them additional publicity for their "efficiency" campaign and usefulness for their consumer cars.

Remember, last year Theissen was blamed for not vetoing on KERS? People called him arrogant and such. But he never had a choice! Once he got the 30 Mio KERS budget there was no turning back. He simply would have been fired, had he gone to his board saying "Sorry guys, the others do not want to develop this system, so I stop as well, half the money you gave me 2 month ago is now wasted, don't be mad, ok?".

With the new concord agreement there was a special situation. BMW (unlike Toyota and Renault) realized that they had to commit to F1 for at least three years if they sign in. So in a special board meeting they decided to not do so. Again Theissen, who had been pushing a lot for a FOTA friendly compromise, did not had a say in this. And as a side note, he also is not involved in the selling process of the team now!

The board's decision to end the F1 project was completely independent from the current 2009 budget of the team. Whether they sell the team or close it down does not matter. The money was grated and spent. They never stopped the development for this and next years car!

Edited by Bbbut, 26 November 2009 - 22:56.

[metz]

Some valid point Bbbut, bbbut this sentence; And as a side note, he also is not involved in the selling process of the team now! is wrong.
The board still expects him to find a buyer and in everything I have read, he (Dr.T) is quoted widely..

[One]

Well sorry I know all that, some ppl here just want to preach like Monks.


Any corporation can stop any activities in case if the Board decides to do so.

[Bbbut]

Some valid point Bbbut, bbbut this sentence; And as a side note, he also is not involved in the selling process of the team now! is wrong.
The board still expects him to find a buyer and in everything I have read, he (Dr.T) is quoted widely..

German Quote
In regards to the Qadback rumors: "I can not say anything to this, since I only know the media reports as well. I am not the responsible person for the selling process in the company."

[J-Raid]

Now it looks like Toyota is going to sell its entry, leaving Sauber sidelined: http://www.f1network...91/st151928.htm

[juary]

Now it looks like Toyota is going to sell its entry, leaving Sauber sidelined: http://www.f1network...91/st151928.htm

Oh my God...Stefan Grand Prix...i really like to know the Ferrari thoughts about this new team...if it's true. but i don't believe it, and Sauber will miss the grid to give place to this Serbian team the 2010 grid will be the most ridicoulous ever.

[Psymon]

Lee McKenzie has just tweeted:

Peter Sauber buys BMW with condition team will be on grid in 2010

No mention of a source or anything yet though...

[One]

Another credit crunch and the Stephen is gone,... government backing for how long...?

[Greem]

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/80350

[Timstr11]

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/80350

A further agreement with Sauber proposes personnel cuts from the current level of 388 to around 250 employees.

That's a very small number.

[Rinehart]

Peter Sauber buys BMW with condition team will be on grid in 2010


So, Peter Saubers world, as well as 250 employees, now entirely depends upon the vengance of the FIA with regards to Toyota...

[pgj]

Joe Saward is reporting that Toyota has sold its FIA F1 entry. This could prove to be a problem for Sauber as things would revert back to there being no free grid slot available. READ

[RedBaron]

Can Sauber do a Brawn? It is similar and I know it's been asked before and poo pooed, but you never know. Brawn was basically just down to ditching your terrible car with most of the season still to go and working on next years car. No major rule changes for 2010, but still very early on the in the development stages of the new rule book (still in year 1), so still a big chance to make gains on a brand new car rather than developing a 2009 one. That's if they make the grid, of course.

[hunnylander]

Joe Saward is reporting that Toyota has sold its FIA F1 entry. This could prove to be a problem for Sauber as things would revert back to there being no free grid slot available. READ

Then the FIA/FOTA should give that 14th slot, dammit! Now it's not fishy Qadbak, it's Sauber!

[Timstr11]

Joe Saward is reporting that Toyota has sold its FIA F1 entry. This could prove to be a problem for Sauber as things would revert back to there being no free grid slot available. READ

Unless Williams budges and agrees to a 14th entry.

[kaivo]

Crazy season.

[juary]

Can Sauber do a Brawn? It is similar and I know it's been asked before and poo pooed, but you never know. Brawn was basically just down to ditching your terrible car with most of the season still to go and working on next years car. No major rule changes for 2010, but still very early on the in the development stages of the new rule book (still in year 1), so still a big chance to make gains on a brand new car rather than developing a 2009 one. That's if they make the grid, of course.

Awaiting the FIA slot, i don't believe they can do what Brawn did, but it would be a strong midfield contender. The rumours say with Ferrari engines and gearbox, and with a pair as Heidfeld- Fisi or Fisi-Klien.

[One]

Then the FIA/FOTA should give that 14th slot, dammit! Now it's not fishy Qadbak, it's Sauber!

Indeed. the situation has become too complex.



There is one news that may be good for the team.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/80350

Peter Sauber to buy back the team from BMW, with the condition to entry in 2010.

Only if BMW were smart enough to do this before the CA...

Edited by One, 27 November 2009 - 11:01.

[wingwalker]

It's slap in the face of F1 fans that Peter Sauber team hasn't got a secured place on the gird since months now. It's gonna be a total disgrace if he'll be left out.

[hunnylander]

Indeed. the situation has become too complex.

I have a feeling, at least one of the new and small teams (who starts from scratch) won't make the Sakhir grid or won't finish the next season or will give up after one year. So we need a strong and passionate 14th team. If they don't allow Sauber on the grid, they'll eventually kill the team.

[Mungo Fangio of the Year]

It's slap in the face of F1 fans that Peter Sauber team hasn't got a secured place on the gird since months now. It's gonna be a total disgrace if he'll be left out.

[One]

What will be with Virgin move on Manor?


Some time a go there was a story of Virgin to buy Manor, now the story seem to be gone and now we hear that an American wants to buy the team... ???

Edited by One, 27 November 2009 - 11:15.

[MegaManson]

Shows how little faith the Americans have in USF1

The investors would surely have invested in USF1 if they had confidence in the project as USF1 badly need money so if they are sniffing around Sauber this shows USF1 is not as strong as some think ?

[midgrid]

Shows how little faith the Americans have in USF1

The investors would surely have invested in USF1 if they had confidence in the project as USF1 badly need money so if they are sniffing around Sauber this shows USF1 is not as strong as some think ?

Well, Sauber is an established F1 team, with or without BMW's support, and USF1 isn't. Simple as that.

[One]

Shows how little faith the Americans have in USF1

The investors would surely have invested in USF1 if they had confidence in the project as USF1 badly need money so if they are sniffing around Sauber this shows USF1 is not as strong as some think ?

Sauber is stronger than USF1 in all cases, only if they were to get a slot...

[MegaManson]

Yeah would be good to see Peter Sauber back in F1, a true racing man unlike the likes of Howett

[Mungo Fangio of the Year]

Lets not also forget the IMPORTANT fact that IF Sauber gets gridplace, they also get Ferrari engines!

[salamin]

i wonder if a redbull would back sauber as title sponsor, like in the old days

[noikeee]

What will be with Virgin move on Manor?


Some time a go there was a story of Virgin to buy Manor, now the story seem to be gone and now we hear that an American wants to buy the team... ???

What?! All the news that I've seen about Manor always mention the connection to Virgin, and the folks in the Manor thread here seem all convinced of it. What's your source on this american investor?

[MegaManson]

i wonder if a redbull would back sauber as title sponsor, like in the old days

Wouldn't and shouldn't be allowed to happen

Imagine it - Vettel on last lap and is in 9th place, needs 8th to be WDC, infront of him is a Sauber Red Bull, conflict of interest ?

[noikeee]

Wouldn't and shouldn't be allowed to happen

Imagine it - Vettel on last lap and is in 9th place, needs 8th to be WDC, infront of him is a Sauber Red Bull, conflict of interest ?

Doesn't that already happen with Toro Rosso?

[Phucaigh]

If Peter Sauber is not in F1 next year it will be the fault of BMW for not signing the Concorde agreement.

[salamin]

Wouldn't and shouldn't be allowed to happen

Imagine it - Vettel on last lap and is in 9th place, needs 8th to be WDC, infront of him is a Sauber Red Bull, conflict of interest ?

and 1/4th of the field would run with RB liveries

[Captain Tightpants]

Lets not also forget the IMPORTANT fact that IF Sauber gets gridplace, they also get Ferrari engines!

Hardly important; in fact, it doesn't really bode well for the team - Ferrari have a reputation for only providing customer engines to teams that cannot challenge their position.

[Dalton007]

It's slap in the face of F1 fans that Peter Sauber team hasn't got a secured place on the gird since months now. It's gonna be a total disgrace if he'll be left out.

And whose fault is that? BMW for not securing a position on the grid and then looking to sell the team!

[MegaManson]

Doesn't that already happen with Toro Rosso?

Morally it would be more acceptable Materschitz ordering a driver from a team he already owns to move over than ordering a driver from a team he doesn't own to move over

[Captain Tightpants]

And whose fault is that? BMW for not securing a position on the grid and then looking to sell the team!

They did it for a reason. The darker rumours suggest that they didn't want a repeat of the Honda-Brawn scenario.

[Clatter]

Morally it would be more acceptable Materschitz ordering a driver from a team he already owns to move over than ordering a driver from a team he doesn't own to move over

Sorry, but I can't really see the difference.