9761 replies to this topic

[Lukin83]

Very interesting, worth for another thread, thanks.

http://forums.autosp...howtopic=120972

It's common known that Renault are more economical, but I'm suprised that the gap is so big.

It's not that big between Renault and McLaren though. Maybe it's down to KERS? Otherwise Mercedes, with it's power and efficiency, will be out of reach next year.

[Carlo's]

I think that is more about aero, drag level of chassis and even downforce. All these things affected on the overall result I guess.

[alecc]

The Vancouver Olympics start February 12 ;)

Oh crap, nothing to watch on January

(sorry for offtop, thats my last one, I promise)

I think that is more about aero, drag level of chassis and even downforce. All these things affected on the overall result I guess.

Exactly, I think even driving styles of the drivers, and race strategies have influence to it?

Edited by alecc, 29 December 2009 - 22:08.

[RF1 fan]

According to the 576th issue of sport auto:

Renault made a fuel tank of 165kg.
Mercedes made a fuel tank of 175 kg.
Cosworth made a fuel tank of 185 kg.

[bankoq]

No engines parity then? Good for Renault.

[Carlo's]

According to the 576th issue of sport auto:

Renault made a fuel tank of 165kg.
Mercedes made a fuel tank of 175 kg.
Cosworth made a fuel tank of 185 kg.

Could you send us link to the source?

[RF1 fan]

Voici un résumé des modifications des F1 2010 en fonction du nouveau règlement (essence et pneus), extrait Sport auto N° 576 :

1- Réservoir XXL : Renault prévoit un réservoir de 165 kg, Mercedes 175 et Cosworth 185; centre de gravité le plus bas donc une bosse de chaque coté des fesses du pilote.

2- Garde au sol réglable par les mécanos lors d'un arrêt au stand car la voiture est plus légère en fin de course.

3- Empatement allongé dû au réservoir entre 5 à 10 cm selon les écuries, le plus court possible sinon problème lors des circuits sinueux.

4- Boite de vitesse plus courte pour éviter allongement de l'empatement et faire de la place pour optimiser le diffuseur.

5- Sorties d'échappement déplacées plus vers l'arrière pour éviter de souffler air chaud sur les suspensions.

6- Endplates étendues à l'arrière (parties latérales de l'aileron arrière) : comme chez Red Bull et Toyota, elles descendent à hauteur du diffuseur pour l'optimiser.

7-Jantes visibles : plus de flasque, c'est le règlement.

8- Centre de gravité déplacé vers l'arrière dû aux pneus étroits de l'avant (49% à 47%); problème car un peu au hasard car pas de Bridgestone 2010 définitive disponible, il va falloir jouer avec le lest mobile.

9- Retour du lest mobile : plus de kers et le poids a été porté à 620 kg au lieu de 605.

10- Pneumatique plus étroit : impacte sur l'adhérence mécanique et la package aéro.

11- Un dessous de monoplace arrondi, innovation de Red Bull, amélioration du flux sous la voiture.

12- Nez à la Red Bull, museau haut et qui plonge.

13- Pontons à la Brawn GP: entrée d'air plus en largeur q'en hauteur comme RF1, permet de sculpter la partie basse de la carrosserie.

14- Capot moteur : percé à proximité de l'arête pour améliorer le rendement thermique et extraire l'air chaud dans une zone neutre, donc de limiter la trainée (la trainée consomme du carburant).

15- Triple et quadruple diffuseur: il faudra fournir de l'air en quantité pour cela !

16- Ecopes de frein : plus important pour refroidir car la voiture est plus lourde.

17- Aileron avant : compte tenu de l'acroissement de l'adhérence arrière avec les triple diffuseurs, il faudra plus d'appuis à l'avant, l'aileron de la Mc Laren va être copié. Les endlates de l'aileron avant risquent de changer avec les pneus étroits.


http://www.rf1-forum...0-t883-460.html

[highdownforce]

[...]

Thanks, that's a lot of details!

[metz]

Good find RF1.
to save some time...

Here is a summary of changes in F1 in 2010 under the new Regulation (gasoline and tires), extracted Sports Car No. 576:

1 - XXL Tank Renault provides a reservoir of 165 kg, 175 and Mercedes 185 Cosworth, center of gravity lower then a bump on each side of the buttocks of the driver.

2 - Ground clearance adjustable by the mechanics during a pit stop because the car is lighter end of the race.

3 - Wheelbase lengthened due to the reservoir 5 to 10 cm according to the stables, as short as possible or problem during the winding circuits.

4 - Transmission shorter to avoid lengthening the wheelbase and make room to optimize the diffuser.

5 - tailpipes displaced over backwards to avoid blowing hot air on the suspension.

6 - ENDPLATE extended to the rear (sides of the rear wing): Like Red Bull and Toyota, they descend in height of the diffuser to optimize.

7-wheels visible: more flaccid, it's regulations.

8 - Center of gravity moved back due to the narrow tires of the front (49% to 47%); problem because a haphazard because no final Bridgestone 2010 available, it must be played with movable ballast.

9 - Back ballast mobile over kers and the weight was increased to 620 kg instead of 605.

10 - Pneumatic Closer: impact on the mechanical grip and aero package.

11 - A car rounded below, Red Bull innovation, improving the flow under the car.

12 - Nose to the Red Bull nose high and plunges.

13 - the pontoons Brawn GP: air intake more q'en width height as RF1, can sculpt the lower body.

14 - Engine Hood: pierced near the edge to improve the thermal efficiency and extract the hot air in a neutral zone, thus limiting the drag (drag consumes fuel).

15 - Triple and quadruple broadcaster: it will supply air quantity for that!

16 - brake ducts: more important for cooling because the car is heavier.

17 - Front wing: Given the greater show of the rear grip with three broadcasters will require more support to the front wing of the McLaren will be copied. The endlates the front wing may change with narrow tires.

[Carlo's]

13 - the pontoons Brawn GP: air intake more q'en width height as RF1, can sculpt the lower body.

Could anyone translate it in a better way? Unfortunately Google Translate isn't the best tool. "q'en"?

Edited by Carlo's, 30 December 2009 - 16:38.

[NSV]

Even in french it's a bit weird, but I guess it means the shape of the air intakes will focus on width rather than on height, as Brawn GP in 2009, in order to allow a better design to the lower half of the body.

[Carlo's]

So, Renault's sidepods are to be thrown away? It's quiet similar image for years:
R27 - http://www.gpjunkie....ltR27launch.jpg
R28 - http://formula1.file...nault_r28_1.jpg
R29 - http://farm4.static....665031e11_o.jpg

[highdownforce]

Even in french it's a bit weird, but I guess it means the shape of the air intakes will focus on width rather than on height, as Brawn GP in 2009, in order to allow a better design to the lower half of the body.

Redesign of the sidepods and floor to allown the design of air intakes to go from this to this.

[highdownforce]

So, Renault's sidepods are to be thrown away?

If the report is correct, yes.
Note that Red Bull uses a different shape.

[Timstr11]

All the other stuff in the list are normal year on year car shape and layout changes. That in itself is not new.

The one thing that strikes me as really new, if true, is:

Good find RF1.
to save some time...

Here is a summary of changes in F1 in 2010 under the new Regulation (gasoline and tires), extracted Sports Car No. 576:

2 - Ground clearance adjustable by the mechanics during a pit stop because the car is lighter end of the race.

I interpret this as ride height change made possible during pit stops, to compensate for the lower car weight towards the end of a GP?

1 -Not sure if that's allowed.
2- How do they implement something like that. How are ride height changes made now?

Edited by Timstr11, 30 December 2009 - 17:32.

[highdownforce]

I interpret this as ride height change made possible during pit stops, to compensate for the lower car weight towards the end of a GP?

Yes, that's what is reported.

1 -Not sure if that's allowed.

I can't say for sure if it's allowed during the race, but I guess it is.

[Timstr11]

The FIA rulebook says:
10.2.3 No adjustment may be made to the suspension system while the car is in motion.

So it doesn't look like it's prohibited.

[highdownforce]

The FIA rulebook says:
10.2.3 No adjustment may be made to the suspension system while the car is in motion.

So it doesn't look like it's prohibited.

Thanks.
It looks like something that all teams will implement.

[RF1 fan]

Thanks.
It looks like something that all teams will implement.

Newey is not sure about the legality of the system.
Loic Bigois is sure that's legal.

[Timstr11]

Newey is not sure about the legality of the system.
Loic Bigois is sure that's legal.

Where did you get that from?

Edit:
LOL - We're possibly looking at 'suspension gate' next year then.

Edited by Timstr11, 30 December 2009 - 18:27.

[RF1 fan]

Une monoplace va commencer la course aux environ de 800 Kg pour la finir à 625 kg : On parle donc de faire modifier la hauteur de caisse (afin qu'il y ait le moins de variataion possible) lors des arrêts aux stands pour les pneus.
Là on commence à avoir des divergences de vue, Newey s'interroge, tandis que Bigois dit que c'est légal si c'est fait par un mécano avec un outil, et non par le pilote qui appuie sur un bouton.

Réservoirs taille XL : Renault demande une capacité de 165 kg, Mercedes 175 kg et Coswort 185 kg. je ne connais la demande de Ferrari. Si on n'échappe pas à l'allongement de l'empattement (5 à 10 cm apparement), on n'échappera pas non plus à des bossages en bas des caisses.
Pour limiter l'allogement, on parle de boites de vitesses plus compactes.

http://www.zonef1.co...?...sc&start=90

[Timstr11]

Une monoplace va commencer la course aux environ de 800 Kg pour la finir à 625 kg : On parle donc de faire modifier la hauteur de caisse (afin qu'il y ait le moins de variataion possible) lors des arrêts aux stands pour les pneus.
Là on commence à avoir des divergences de vue, Newey s'interroge, tandis que Bigois dit que c'est légal si c'est fait par un mécano avec un outil, et non par le pilote qui appuie sur un bouton.

Réservoirs taille XL : Renault demande une capacité de 165 kg, Mercedes 175 kg et Coswort 185 kg. je ne connais la demande de Ferrari. Si on n'échappe pas à l'allongement de l'empattement (5 à 10 cm apparement), on n'échappera pas non plus à des bossages en bas des caisses.
Pour limiter l'allogement, on parle de boites de vitesses plus compactes.

http://www.zonef1.co...?...sc&start=90

Translated the relevant part:

A car will start the race at around 800 kg to finish
625 kg: We are talking to vary the ride height (to
there is the least possible variataion) during pit stops
for tires.
There they began to have differences of opinion, Newey questions, while
Bigois said that it is legal if done by a mechanic with a tool
and not by the pilot presses a button.

I scoured the Sporting and Technical regulations again and could not find anything against manual ride height adjustments during a pit stop.

The teams that get this right will have a big advantage as lowering the ride height brings quite a bit more efficient downforce.

[korzeniow]

after confidential-renault.fr:

"Lucas Di Grassi will take with him several Renault engineers to join Virgin Racing."

"Other information concerning the organizational Renault F1:

Bob Bell should take in 2010, the place occupied by Pat Symonds to the case of Singapore. The UK would become the new head of engineering and strategy, leaving the post of Team Manager vacancy. The media had assigned the job to Eric Bouiller during the past week, but the person was denied, and the situation is still not clarified. James Allison for his part had been confirmed as technical director in 2010."

[highdownforce]

"Lucas Di Grassi will take with him several Renault engineers to join Virgin Racing."

Virgin has signed former Renault test driver and GP2 frontrunner Lucas di Grassi as Glock's team-mate, a choice that Wirth is also very happy with.

"We've got a lot of engineers from Renault who have joined us," he said. "Lucas has been a test driver there for two years. They were super-enthusiastic about Lucas's testing ability, feedback and skill."

[ Autosport.com ]

[PNSD]

Says alot about Lucas. Well done for Virgin!

[whatto999]

Christian Silk, Chief Test Track Engineer and a long-time member of Benetton/Renault team has moved to Virgin Racing. It's believed that he was approached by Nick Wirth, Technical Director at Virgin Racing, as they worked together before in Benetton back in 1990s.

[hunnylander]

15 - Triple and quadruple broadcaster: it will supply air quantity for that!

Triple or quadruple?

[Timstr11]

Triple or quadruple?

It's a diffuser they raced since the Singapore race.
Absolutely nothing new about it.

[FA and RK fan]

Triple or quadruple?

Fish,

anyway, i think it is about time FIA do something about diffusers. Looking at the sheet of changes R30 will be adressed to, i am really looking forward seeing it race.

[hunnylander]

It's a diffuser they raced since the Singapore race.
Absolutely nothing new about it.

You can't say that for sure, post a Singapore diffuser picture, I can't find a good one.
http://forums.autosp...p;#entry4023958

[Anomnader]

with 3rd and 4th level diffusers coming out is anyone slightly concerned that at the beginnning of the season FIA might have an about turn and ban multi-level diffusers

[undersquare]

with 3rd and 4th level diffusers coming out is anyone slightly concerned that at the beginnning of the season FIA might have an about turn and ban multi-level diffusers

I feel they're fairly safe from this kind of thing ATM. Todt is a lot more connected to the teams than Max, and making an effort I think to be different.

[jeze]

Any suggestions of when Renault will announce their second driver?

[farsailor]

Any suggestions of when Renault will announce their second driver?

On the 4th of january i've heard.

[robracer]

Any suggestions of when Renault will announce their second driver?

More on their 2nd driver choice.

http://translate.goo...=...l=&ie=UTF-8

It's between Heidfeld and Grosjean according to this. Reserve is likely to be Jerome d'Ambrosio.

Edited by robracer, 31 December 2009 - 13:08.

[Buckethead]

More on their 2nd driver choice.

http://translate.goo...=...l=&ie=UTF-8

It's between Heidfeld and Grosjean according to this. Reserve is likely to be Jerome d'Ambrosio.

I would like to see Grosjean at Renault since he is much better than he showed this year. If he don't get that seat his career might be over. Heidfeld can go to Sauber

[thuGG]

I want to see Nick, he is much better than Grosjean.

[Buckethead]

I want to see Nick, he is much better than Grosjean.

True, but I like both of them and want to see them in F1 and Sauber ain't hiring second young driver. That's why Romain to Renault and Nick to Sauber.

[korzeniow]

Renault aims at TOP3, similar to Mercedes.

[RF1 fan]

Bob Bell announces that's the team will try to fight for the top 3 in the championship in 2010 but not the title contention.

[bankoq]

Renault aims at TOP3, similar to Mercedes.

No really. Schumacher & Brawn's only aim is the title. On the other hand Bell expects good car but not wins (sth like BMW F1.08 in first part of that season I guess). I can't see Renault being top3 in WCC even if they produce good car until they hire Heidfeld. Paradoxically it isn't a good choice for Robert if you care abotu his reputation.

[Captain Tightpants]

Renault aims at TOP3, similar to Mercedes.

Well, I suppose that's fairly realistic, given that they know how to win championships - unlike those newcomer teams who claim they'll be winning races by the end of their first season.

[robracer]

Well, I suppose that's fairly realistic, given that they know how to win championships - unlike those newcomer teams who claim they'll be winning races by the end of their first season.

I've seen nothing about the new teams aiming for wins in their first season. What are you talking about?

[Megan]

More on their 2nd driver choice.

http://translate.goo...=...l=&ie=UTF-8

It's between Heidfeld and Grosjean according to this. Reserve is likely to be Jerome d'Ambrosio.

Oh no... No this petty and jealous Heidfeld...

[whatto999]

"The real target for us is to build for 2011 and a championship campaign. But we have realistic expectations for 2010."

"We are not going to produce a car that catapults us to the front because F1 is very competitive. But our 2010 expectations are to run towards the front and challenge for the top three."

"It has ended all of the concerns that the staff had and gives a secure base for the future."

"There is a multi-year commitment and a very sensible strategy."


Obviously team is in the worst state since 2001 and Benetton days. Even then i'm not so sure things were this bad.
I believe the main reason for uncompetitive years is continual loss of good engineering force. Renault's aero department is in bad shape for years, and other departments were further hit with last year's scandal resulting in ppl go elsewhere. Uncertain future of the team surely has left consequences in motivations of the stuff back at factory.

Additionaly they have lost super driver and that will have significant effect on team's point-scoring capability next year.

Team won't do any significant progress next year (if any) so i predict them to be only in front of new teams.

[Captain Tightpants]

I've seen nothing about the new teams aiming for wins in their first season. What are you talking about?

I don't mean these new teams. Force India did it. Spyker did it. Midland probably did it. From memory, Jaguar were pretty cocky when they first joined, as was Red Bull. Hell, Reynard claimed that their chassis was so good that BAR would win their first race. And of all those teams, only Red Bull have won a race; Force India came close in Spa but were defeated by Raikkonen's KERS button.

Surely you didn't think Virgin, Campos, Lotus and USF1 are the only new teams to have joined in the history of the sport?

[robracer]

I don't mean these new teams. Force India did it. Spyker did it. Midland probably did it. From memory, Jaguar were pretty cocky when they first joined, as was Red Bull. Hell, Reynard claimed that their chassis was so good that BAR would win their first race. And of all those teams, only Red Bull have won a race; Force India came close in Spa but were defeated by Raikkonen's KERS button.

The only team that openly said they were aiming for wins in their first year were BAR. That is fact. Force India, Spyker and Midland certainly did not aim for wins but for podiums within a few years. There is a difference.

Surely you didn't think Virgin, Campos, Lotus and USF1 are the only new teams to have joined in the history of the sport?

This is why I ignored you for a few weeks, because you seem to take me as an idiot.

Back on the ignore list you go.

[Carlo's]

Probably today will be announcement on the 2nd driver and a new organizational structure.

[Captain Tightpants]

Probably today will be announcement on the 2nd driver and a new organizational structure.

We haven't heard boo from Renault. January 4th was rumoured to be the date of their announcement, but the teams generally like to annouce when they'll be making the official annoucement so that the press can get ready for it. Renault haven't said a word so far (that said, Campos didn't give a heads-up that they'd be announcing a driver signing when they took Senna - but then, I think Adrian Campos had planned to annouce it long after Abu Dhabi, but couldn't wait to do it and went ahead anyway).

We'll know soon enough. The teams seem to like the time between ten in the morning and one in the afternoon to make annoucements. Noon is a very popular time, and it's fifteen minutes away.

[alecc]

Morelli confirmed that Kubica will stay at Renault:
http://news.bbc.co.u...one/8439373.stm

Maybe Nick just waited for this announcement before he decide to join Renault

But seriously, the question if they hire Nick is crucial, because if they take the best available driver (Nick), that will mean, that they take the blabla about TOP3 in 2010 and WCC fighting in 2011 seriously, but if they take anybody other, like some pay-driver or someone from Genii, that will only mean that the team is becoming a playground for Lopez and Genii, and that will mean trouble form Robert.