59 replies to this topic

[tkulla]

Now I know this will bring out the Button bashers, but I was wondering about this and was conflicted about the answer. I always thought it was very odd that Brawn signed Rosberg so early. It made no sense to sign Nico before Jenson, unless he was thinking about signing Schumacher all along. With Rosberg, Schumi can claim the #1 spot based on experience and relationships, but that wouldn't be the case with Button, who as reigning WDC and a long time fixture in the team would have had the loyalty of most of the squad going in. Of course, it's possible that things just sort of organically happened, but that doesn't really sound like Ross to me. And I still can't come up with a decent reason to sign Rosberg so early. There was no strong demand for him, and certainly no better seats available. It really does look to me like they paved the way for Michael to return in such a way that he would have an advantage over his teammate (by his relationship with Ross) at least to start the season.

[Raincoat]

Now I know this will bring out the Button bashers, but I was wondering about this and was conflicted about the answer. I always thought it was very odd that Brawn signed Rosberg so early. It made no sense to sign Nico before Jenson, unless he was thinking about signing Schumacher all along. With Rosberg, Schumi can claim the #1 spot based on experience and relationships, but that wouldn't be the case with Button, who as reigning WDC and a long time fixture in the team would have had the loyalty of most of the squad going in. Of course, it's possible that things just sort of organically happened, but that doesn't really sound like Ross to me. And I still can't come up with a decent reason to sign Rosberg so early. There was no strong demand for him, and certainly no better seats available. It really does look to me like they paved the way for Michael to return in such a way that he would have an advantage over his teammate (by his relationship with Ross) at least to start the season.

I doubt it, he was too scared to face Kimi. He would never the guts to face a team mate who is on form

[Clatter]

I think signing Rosberg early was an indication that MS wasn't on the cards at that time. I think his signing was because of the sudden and unplanned for vacancy when Button suddenly found the Mac drive available. As to would he have signed to race with Button, no idea whatsoever, but I don't think he would have even been approached in that situation.

[Johny Bravo]

I doubt it, he was too scared to face Kimi. He would never the guts to face a team mate who is on form

So true. Schumacher was already ******* in his pants from Button back in 2005.

[Slartibartfast]

I agree with Clatter, I think Rosberg was signed as a replacement for Barrichello. If so, the Button + Schumacher scenario wasn't ever imagined, it was Button + Rosberg. I don't think Brawn considered Schumacher until he realised that there was a real possibility of Button not re-signing and he needed a replacement PDQ.

[RodrigoL]

I'm sure he would have signed anyway.

Raikkonen was the only driver Schumi ever feared...

[MARDRU]

Depends on what would be his agreement with Brawn.

Fair, clean internal batlle? Schummi wouldn´t go, as he knew he wouldn´t have a chance to beat JB.

Number one status? Yes, Schummi would sign Mercedes and could claim he beat the WDC even if he was 41.

[dabrasco]

lol if it was Button and Schumacher, I wonder if Schumie would have told Button he likes odd numbers

[Clatter]

lol if it was Button and Schumacher, I wonder if Schumie would have told Button he likes odd numbers

[FenderJaguar]

I think he would have. But - I think that Ross was aware of the Schumacher possibility and that is why the contract wasn't signed with Button.

[Jay101]

At 41 Schumi isn't scared of getting back into a F1 car so I don't believe he would be scared of any team mate, and I'd say Ross thought his driver line up would be rosberg and button but button felt the need to prove himself against Hammy and Schumi couldn't get a drive with Ferrari but saw potential in the 2010 Merc with his old friend Ross.

[Galko877]

I'm really starting to get tired of all these threads suggesting Schumacher is afraid of everybody and their mother.

The guy was ready to be in the same team as Alonso in Team Santander (if they had managed to push through the three-car idea, according to Montezemolo), so do I think he was afraid of Button? No, I don't.

If he would be afraid of anybody he would not return in first place putting his reputation on line at the age of 41.

The only reason why I think Schumacher probably wouldn't have come back if Button had stayed is that Brawn called Michael only after Jenson left. At least that's my understanding. I think the original idea was Button-Rosberg: Button for continuity, experinece and PR asset as a WDC, and Rosberg for youth and fresh blood. I think Brawn only started seriously consider Schumacher after Jenson left.

[giacomo]

Strange question. There wasn't ever a chance of a Button-Schumacher pairing at Mercedes.

Brawn wanted to sign Button-Rosberg, but Button surprised him with his McLaren move. A move which opened the curtain for the Schumacher solution.


But as Schumacher was ready to join Raikkonen during mid-season 2009, in a difficult car, without the option for sufficient testing, after not racing F1 for 2.5 years, with a sore neck, I have a hard time to believe that Button of all people would have scared him out of F1.

[Zdeus]

Actually - I don't think either Rosberg or Button would give Michael reason to worry. As much as as I think Button is good he isn't in the special league that Alonso, Hamilton or Vettel are. So , I don't think Michael would care too much.

That said - technically it wasn't possible to have Michael and Button at merc anyways.

[johnmhinds]

Strange question. There wasn't ever a chance of a Button-Schumacher pairing at Mercedes.

Brawn wanted to sign Button-Rosberg, but Button surprised him with his McLaren move.

I'm sure Brawn knew months before anyone else that Mclaren and Button were working on something.

Buttons move wasn't a last minute thing, it was the whole reason he didn't sign a longer contract for Brawn in the summer, and Button wasn't even prepared to talk about the subject during the end of the 2009 season because he knew he would have got really bad press for appearing to dump the team before the season was over.

The whole announcement was timed to minimise the negative press.

Edited by johnmhinds, 23 January 2010 - 13:27.

[The Ragged Edge]

Schumacher scared of Button? Yeah, and all politicians are honest and truthful.

[Mauseri]

Now I know this will bring out the Button bashers, but I was wondering about this and was conflicted about the answer. I always thought it was very odd that Brawn signed Rosberg so early. It made no sense to sign Nico before Jenson, unless he was thinking about signing Schumacher all along. With Rosberg, Schumi can claim the #1 spot based on experience and relationships, but that wouldn't be the case with Button, who as reigning WDC and a long time fixture in the team would have had the loyalty of most of the squad going in. Of course, it's possible that things just sort of organically happened, but that doesn't really sound like Ross to me. And I still can't come up with a decent reason to sign Rosberg so early. There was no strong demand for him, and certainly no better seats available. It really does look to me like they paved the way for Michael to return in such a way that he would have an advantage over his teammate (by his relationship with Ross) at least to start the season.

I think it made sense to sign Rosberg early. I think Brawn didn't rate Button extremely highly, so getting Rosberg in, the team already had fast and cheap replacement for Button. I believe Rosberg was kind of back up plan for the nr1 drive, in case they cannot get a proven champion for a cheap price, or in case the Mercedes buy out fails.

I don't know at which stage Schumacher started knocking on Brawn. He stayed a Ferrari man quite long, but it's possible discussions were already going on while he was still there. Maybe these discussions were also part of the reasons, why Brawn was reluctant to give Button a new contract with pay rise. Why pay much for an average driver if you have Schumacher?

Edited by Bianchimont, 23 January 2010 - 13:53.

[noikeee]

Button had lots more trouble with Rubens than Michael ever did. So I think Michael wouldn't find him too threatening...

[salamin]

Button had lots more trouble with Rubens than Michael ever did. So I think Michael wouldn't find him too threatening...

yeah RB clearly beat Button in the 2nd half of the season

[JPW]

I don't know at which stage Schumacher started knocking on Brawn. He stayed a Ferrari man quite long, but it's possible discussions were already going on while he was still there. Maybe these discussions were also part of the reasons, why Brawn was reluctant to give Button a new contract with pay rise. Why pay much for an average driver if you have Schumacher?

According to this Schumi interview the first approach by Brawn was at the Abu Dhabi race (november 1st) which was just after the Button to McLaren rumours started to get stronger.
Second (and more serious) approach was three weeks later, so just after Button to McLaren was a fact and right around the time Rosberg was announced.

[KateLM]

I'm sure Brawn knew months before anyone else that Mclaren and Button were working on something.

Buttons move wasn't a last minute thing, it was the whole reason he didn't sign a longer contract for Brawn in the summer, and Button wasn't even prepared to talk about the subject during the end of the 2009 season because he knew he would have got really bad press for appearing to dump the team before the season was over.

The whole announcement was timed to minimise the negative press.

I doubt thats true when McLaren were certainly looking at Raikkonen seriously at that time - probably more seriously than at Button, before things started to go wrong at the end of the season.

[SAFC09]

As much as as I think Button is good he isn't in the special league that Alonso, Hamilton or Vettel are

I respect your opinion but IMO Jenson is better than Vettel, at the end of Vettel's career i will probably have a different opinion, but if i was told to pick one or the other i'd have Jenson everytime - more well rounded, can win from pole or off the front row

[johnmhinds]

I doubt thats true when McLaren were certainly looking at Raikkonen seriously at that time - probably more seriously than at Button, before things started to go wrong at the end of the season.

Come on, Mclaren never seriously wanted Raikkonen back, they were just using him to keep Buttons asking price down.

[giacomo]

I respect your opinion but IMO Jenson is better than Vettel, at the end of Vettel's career i will probably have a different opinion, but if i was told to pick one or the other i'd have Jenson everytime - more well rounded, can win from pole or off the front row

When I hear people here talk about Massa the ability to win from pole or front row is a sign of weakness.

[noikeee]

When I hear people here talk about Massa the ability to win from pole or front row is a sign of weakness.

I think you misunderstood his post, as he's talking about Button's strength of winning from both the front row or OFF the front row.

[RodrigoL]

When I hear people here talk about Massa the ability to win from pole or front row is a sign of weakness.

No, that's a competitive advantage. His inability to win from anywhere else is the sign...

[pRy]

Considering they've been quite good friends since Button joined F1 I see no reason why not.

[F1 Tor.]

The important word for me is atmosphere. It's essential when trying to read into Michael's return.
Michael and Nico: Michael's ducks are all in a row(the way it's always been) and the 'criteria' he needs to perform at his best are all met.
Michael and Jenson:not so much.

[Sakae]

Now I know this will bring out the Button bashers, but I was wondering about this and was conflicted about the answer. I always thought it was very odd that Brawn signed Rosberg so early. It made no sense to sign Nico before Jenson, unless he was thinking about signing Schumacher all along. With Rosberg, Schumi can claim the #1 spot based on experience and relationships, but that wouldn't be the case with Button, who as reigning WDC and a long time fixture in the team would have had the loyalty of most of the squad going in. Of course, it's possible that things just sort of organically happened, but that doesn't really sound like Ross to me. And I still can't come up with a decent reason to sign Rosberg so early. There was no strong demand for him, and certainly no better seats available. It really does look to me like they paved the way for Michael to return in such a way that he would have an advantage over his teammate (by his relationship with Ross) at least to start the season.

Why not? Jason Button is as good No. 2 as any of them after all.

[KateLM]

Come on, Mclaren never seriously wanted Raikkonen back, they were just using him to keep Buttons asking price down.

Thats your opinion. I have mine

[tkulla]

I find the whole second half of this season with regard to Button and Brawn rather peculiar. The consensus opinion is that Button just tightened up and struggled in qualifying. But what's odd to me is that Ross wasn't able to overcome the technical problems that were causing him trouble (heating the tyres). What Ross has said is that they moved most of their resources to 2010 once it looked like Button had the championship in hand. This is reasonable and practical - and very much a Brawn thing to do. It's not much different than "managing" a race win by only pushing as hard as you need to (as Button did early on). But it also had the side effect of minimizing Button's leverage when it came to negotiations for 2010 (or minimized the PR hit were he to leave). That sounds very Machiavellian, but giving Rubens a bit more support (which also serves as payback for the Ferrari years) and letting Button struggle a bit did give Ross the advantage in negotiations. Had Button wrapped up the championship with five races left and beat Rubens by 40 points Brawn would have little choice but to pay him in excess of $10 million. Or he would have potentially looked like a fool if Button left (as he did) and Michael wasn't the driver we all remember.

Sure, it's a bit of conspiracy-think. But if there's one person in F1 clever enough to pull something like this off, it's Ross Brawn. Personally, I think Brawn holds Button in the highest regard, but getting Mercedes probably meant luring Schumacher back to F1. And he probably figures Michael hasn't lost much and can still win the WDC in style if given the car, so not much different than Button at this point. And he's also now a very, very rich man after selling out to Mercedes.

[giacomo]

As if it would be the task of Brawn to cure Buttons underperformance.

[Group B]

Depends on what would be his agreement with Brawn.
Fair, clean internal batlle? Schummi wouldn´t go, as he knew he wouldn´t have a chance to beat JB.

[Tifosi90]

I love how every MS basher always says how MS is scared of everyone. But the only problem with that theory is that if MS is scared of everyone, then why the hell has he decided to comeback after 3 years out and at a age of 41? That's sound like a driver that is scared of competing

MS is not scared of button or anyone else, infact Button struggled more against Rubens this year than MS did in his whole Ferrari partnership with rubens.

Yes MS is scared of Button

[Tifosi90]

I find the whole second half of this season with regard to Button and Brawn rather peculiar. The consensus opinion is that Button just tightened up and struggled in qualifying. But what's odd to me is that Ross wasn't able to overcome the technical problems that were causing him trouble (heating the tyres). What Ross has said is that they moved most of their resources to 2010 once it looked like Button had the championship in hand. This is reasonable and practical - and very much a Brawn thing to do. It's not much different than "managing" a race win by only pushing as hard as you need to (as Button did early on). But it also had the side effect of minimizing Button's leverage when it came to negotiations for 2010 (or minimized the PR hit were he to leave). That sounds very Machiavellian, but giving Rubens a bit more support (which also serves as payback for the Ferrari years) and letting Button struggle a bit did give Ross the advantage in negotiations. Had Button wrapped up the championship with five races left and beat Rubens by 40 points Brawn would have little choice but to pay him in excess of $10 million. Or he would have potentially looked like a fool if Button left (as he did) and Michael wasn't the driver we all remember.

Sure, it's a bit of conspiracy-think. But if there's one person in F1 clever enough to pull something like this off, it's Ross Brawn. Personally, I think Brawn holds Button in the highest regard, but getting Mercedes probably meant luring Schumacher back to F1. And he probably figures Michael hasn't lost much and can still win the WDC in style if given the car, so not much different than Button at this point. And he's also now a very, very rich man after selling out to Mercedes.

WTF lol? Nice conspiracy theory, now go and see a doctor mate

[Mauseri]

I love how every MS basher always says how MS is scared of everyone. But the only problem with that theory is that if MS is scared of everyone, then why the hell has he decided to comeback after 3 years out and at a age of 41? That's sound like a driver that is scared of competing

Because finally he is offered a number 1 drive again? At Ferrari he either was denied of that or he was scared of Kimi.

Ok, this time around I'm also considering that he might be coming back just for fun - although competively. He got bored in retirement. I don't think it's guaranteed he can perform well enough to take the number 1 role at Brawn.

[Group B]

I love how every MS basher always says how MS is scared of everyone. But the only problem with that theory is that if MS is scared of everyone, then why the hell has he decided to comeback after 3 years out and at a age of 41? That's sound like a driver that is scared of competing

It's a big conspiracy; Merc (who only entered F1 to boost MS' image) are going to slow Rosberg down with lots of sabotaging so MS wins. On top top of that the Merc will be 4 seconds quicker tha anything else, thus allowing donkey Schumie to beat even Fred, Lewis & Co. MS knows all this, otherwise he'd never dare come back.

[Uwe]

Button has earned his championship fair and square and the claims by some that he isn't a worthy champion are completely off the mark. But to suggest MS would be afraid to be partnered with Button is outright stupid. I can't find any less harsh words for such an assumption.

[tkulla]

The purpose of this thread was not to accuse MS of being "afraid" of Button. That's schoolboy nonsense no matter which drivers we're talking about.

But Michael is a very smart man, and has always been very aware of his legacy (perhaps too aware, some would argue). To make this comeback, he's going to want to put himself in the best possible situation for his own success. It's the job of every driver to do so, and a lax attitude of "my talent is all I need" is simply not going to work consistently in F1. The top 6 or 7 drivers in F1 are all extraordinarily gifted, and when they are head to head the things that determine who wins are preparation, politics, style compatibility to the hardware and regulations, adaptability and consistency. To me, these are the things that make Schumacher stand apart from all other drivers in history. Yes, he's always had fantastic car control and skill. But outliers in physical ability are extraordinarily rare and it's likely that there have been times when he hasn't had an advantage in "talent", which is difficult to define anyway.

[tkulla]

WTF lol? Nice conspiracy theory, now go and see a doctor mate

Care to respond with some substance? Why isn't it possible? Would Ross not benefit from such a plan?

[apoka]

Would MS have signed with Mercedes if Button was his teammate?

Yes. I don't think the other driver played a major role. It was the Merc-Brawn combo that attracted MS. (My opinion is that he would even prefer to race against the current WDC.)

[Galko877]

The purpose of this thread was not to accuse MS of being "afraid" of Button. That's schoolboy nonsense no matter which drivers we're talking about.

But Michael is a very smart man, and has always been very aware of his legacy (perhaps too aware, some would argue). To make this comeback, he's going to want to put himself in the best possible situation for his own success. It's the job of every driver to do so, and a lax attitude of "my talent is all I need" is simply not going to work consistently in F1. The top 6 or 7 drivers in F1 are all extraordinarily gifted, and when they are head to head the things that determine who wins are preparation, politics, style compatibility to the hardware and regulations, adaptability and consistency. To me, these are the things that make Schumacher stand apart from all other drivers in history. Yes, he's always had fantastic car control and skill. But outliers in physical ability are extraordinarily rare and it's likely that there have been times when he hasn't had an advantage in "talent", which is difficult to define anyway.

I don't think he was as much aware of his legacy at all as people think. And he is definitely not doing this comeback worrying for his reputation. If anything he is taking a big gamble as the risk of getting beaten is bigger than him winning again. Sure Mercedes is a great team, but already last year many people thought they were a one-season wonder, on the back of the diffuser controversy. They won't have that DD advantage any more and already in the second half of 2009 they were caught and surpassed by other teams. So, no what Schumacher is doing is not at all without risk for his reputation. On the contrary.

Button reasoned his switch to McLaren by saying he thinks they will do better in 2010 than Mercedes (based on the pace of their development in 2009, infrastructure, resources). Kimi was only willing to sing to McLaren if staying in F1, but not to Mercedes - apparently for the same reason: he thought they would have the better chance for winning. So that's how safe bet Mercedes is for Michael.

[JtP1]

I'm really starting to get tired of all these threads suggesting Schumacher is afraid of everybody and their mother.

Surely Dave Morgan and Marrku Alen have long retired and niether apper to have a Mercedes F1 contract for 2010.

[sephiroth]

I'm sure he would have signed anyway.

Raikkonen was the only driver Schumi ever feared...

What a stupid thing to say. Schumacher retired at the end of 06 and that was the only reason kimi was signed by ferrari. No way would ferrari have paid for kimi if Schumacher was still racing. (Conspiracy theorists will say that luca pushed out Schumacher for kimi but even that doesn't change the fact that it wasn't really up to Schumi - and this year when Schumacher bends luca over and pushes his **** all the way up it will be a fitting revenge).

[Group B]

The purpose of this thread was not to accuse MS of being "afraid" of Button. That's schoolboy nonsense no matter which drivers we're talking about.

But Michael is a very smart man, and has always been very aware of his legacy (perhaps too aware, some would argue). To make this comeback, he's going to want to put himself in the best possible situation for his own success. It's the job of every driver to do so, and a lax attitude of "my talent is all I need" is simply not going to work consistently in F1. The top 6 or 7 drivers in F1 are all extraordinarily gifted, and when they are head to head the things that determine who wins are preparation, politics, style compatibility to the hardware and regulations, adaptability and consistency. To me, these are the things that make Schumacher stand apart from all other drivers in history. Yes, he's always had fantastic car control and skill. But outliers in physical ability are extraordinarily rare and it's likely that there have been times when he hasn't had an advantage in "talent", which is difficult to define anyway.

You are, of course, right in that MS very astute indeed and very good at getting a team organised, motivated and working for him. However, and it's a big however, there's no way you get teams offering you that sort of dedication over so long a time period unless you're bringing something pretty special to the party. In summary; 1) I don't think MS would return unless he feels confident that he stll has decent pace, 2) there's clear potential for him to get #1 status at Merc, BUT it won't be automatic, 3) if he was 'afraid' of the current field he'd stick to counting his millions and racing other things for fun.

[Zdeus]

I respect your opinion but IMO Jenson is better than Vettel, at the end of Vettel's career i will probably have a different opinion, but if i was told to pick one or the other i'd have Jenson everytime - more well rounded, can win from pole or off the front row

I would agree with you , but we need to remember that Vettel is still very young and rough on the edges. There is brilliance in that kid, provided he irons out the rough edges. Vettel is where Jenson was during his time at Renault and in my opinion on that time scale Vettel has achieved more and holds more promise.

[Group B]

I would agree with you , but we need to remember that Vettel is still very young and rough on the edges. There is brilliance in that kid, provided he irons out the rough edges. Vettel is where Jenson was during his time at Renault and in my opinion on that time scale Vettel has achieved more and holds more promise.

Yup. JB was the better driver in 2009, but Vettel has the greater potential.

[Raincoat]

What a stupid thing to say. Schumacher retired at the end of 06 and that was the only reason kimi was signed by ferrari. No way would ferrari have paid for kimi if Schumacher was still racing. (Conspiracy theorists will say that luca pushed out Schumacher for kimi but even that doesn't change the fact that it wasn't really up to Schumi - and this year when Schumacher bends luca over and pushes his **** all the way up it will be a fitting revenge).

Rubbish! Kimi was signed before Schumi decided to retire. The fact was Schumi was scared of Kimi. Also, after Alonso beat him twice the thought of facing 2 strong drivers got the better of him and quit while he was ahead. Schumi would never risk having a strong team mate, imo he lacks the courage and is insecure to go head to head with strong team mate. He needs Brawn to guarantee him the number 1 status.

[Group B]

Rubbish! Kimi was signed before Schumi decided to retire. The fact was Schumi was scared of Kimi. Also, after Alonso beat him twice the thought of facing 2 strong drivers got the better of him and quit while he was ahead. Schumi would never risk having a strong team mate, imo he lacks the courage and is insecure to go head to head with strong team mate. He needs Brawn to guarantee him the number 1 status.

Is Brawn his lover?

[Altitude]

lol if it was Button and Schumacher, I wonder if Schumie would have told Button he likes odd numbers

Yes because Button was always going to be the number 3 driver in a 2 car team!.