71 replies to this topic

[cheapracer]

And of course you can remove 99% of the metal by making one appropriately angled cut for each scallop using your cut-off saw. The last 1% with die grinder.

Yes I currently use and my own made adjustable angle jig thingy to hold the pipes - cut one at set angle, turn 180 degrees and cut at different angle and 5 seconds to clean.

Mind you I start with this amazing program which is the only software I have ever actually written to the creator and said thanks - you work with cars and tubes then you must have this on your computer!

http://www.ozhpv.org.../tubemiter.html

[McGuire]

There are any number of ways to fishmouth tubing, all falling short of the best way: vertical mill. Can't be beaten for ease or accuracy. Of course, not everyone owns a vertical mill. We have an interesting situation in the USA right now in that everyone who wants one might be able to have one. A good Bridgeport, used but serviceable, can be had for as little as $1000 these days. For $2500, with DROs and powerfeeds and even some tools. That's a lot of capability for the money. But then you have to decide if you want a three-phase, two-ton, cast-iron monument taking up space forever.

I haven't made up my mind about that for my new shop, where I am trying to keep things simple. As a result, I have been looking around at all the compact vertical mills and milling/drilling machines now on the market, but it appears to be a minefield -- everything from outright junk to pretty nice stuff, or so it seems. Anyone here own one?

Edited by McGuire, 14 February 2010 - 13:31.

[Canuck]

Recent auction here had a <10 year old Okuma MA-550V complete with 4-th axis, high-pressure through-spindle coolant, conveyor and a handful of tools go for $18,000 CAD. It's new price was somewhere in the upper $200k, lower $300k when purchased. I know that particular machine as I'd spent a fair amount of hours on it. Someone got an incredible deal. Of course, that's not going to fit in your average 2-car garage...

[McGuire]

Hell of a deal for somebody. A lot of guys who have done very well got their start just this way. One machine, then two, hustle your ass off and get couple of good customers, next thing you know you are working on your second boat and your third wife. Life is good if you want to work.

Anyway, with many of these machines you can pay more to move them than they cost to buy. Tremendous deals if you have a use for them.

[cheapracer]

Hell of a deal for somebody. A lot of guys who have done very well got their start just this way. One machine, then two, hustle your ass off and get couple of good customers, next thing you know you are working on your second boat and your third wife. Life is good if you want to work.

Anyway, with many of these machines you can pay more to move them than they cost to buy. Tremendous deals if you have a use for them.

If your working in tenth's rather than thou's its hard to go past used ex-State company machines over here, nothing like the new cheap crap you would buy at Harbour Freight but of course a bit older with a bit of wear. Most small machining side street shops have these and a huge variety. You go go from hand held tools to single machines that you would need a tractor trailer/semi trailer to move.

I have bought a used press drill, a 3 die tube roller and a cut off saw so far with success and I will grab a used brake press soon (about $400 with a selection of used punches). The electric motors can be fixed quite well in side streets and for very cheap to boot.

I have considered sending a few lathes and what have you to the States as fillers in my containers later.

By the way, stainless steel is hugely common over here as are TIG welders as all railings everywhere are made from 0.030"/0.75mm S/S tube, surprisingly and opposite to the West, it's good MIG and ARC welding people that are hard to get (for light gage, 3mm and under).

[McGuire]

I'm interested in the RF45-style vertical column mills and all their clones and variations... the trouble being it's a minefield as I said earlier. The quality is extremely variable and often they are not even crated properly and arrive damaged.

There are a couple of firms here in the States who take an interesting approach. They have the machines manufactured to their own upgraded specs (heavier tables and ways etc), then upon arrival they strip, inspect, and calibrate them. Balanced and blueprinted, if you will. Then they crate and ship them properly and supply parts and technical support, including complete turnkey DRO and CNC packages. And there are actual tech people on the phone rather than some clerk at a warehouse. Costs a few hundred to a thousand more than the generic import but that is solid added value as I see it. I think that's the route I will take.

[cheapracer]

I'm interested in the RF45-style vertical column mills and all their clones and variations... the trouble being it's a minefield as I said earlier.

Oh I walk past those (similar) everyday, the aluminium extrusion workshop uses about 10 of them to make extrusion dies daily - I can ask about them if you want.

I'll get some pics but not till next week as its Chinese new year at the moment and everything is shut down for the week.

[McGuire]

Oh I walk past those (similar) everyday, the aluminium extrusion workshop uses about 10 of them to make extrusion dies daily - I can ask about them if you want.

I'll get some pics but not till next week as its Chinese new year at the moment and everything is shut down for the week.

Never mind.... I broke down and got a Bridgeport. I was talking to a friend and he made me an offer I couldn't refuse, mostly because he couldn't stand the idea of an import machine sitting in my shop. Then yesterday I was unwrapping and assembling some equipment (an engine hoist) and while looking at that weird cardboard they use over there -- the kind fireworks comes in -- I asked myself, "Is this the stuff precision machine tools come in?" No, I don't think so.

So a Series 1 Bridgeport will be arriving next week. I haven't run the serial number yet but it's an early-ish one, maybe older than me. There is something reassuring about having a piece of equipment older than yourself. Provides continuity.

[Tony Matthews]

There is something reassuring about having a piece of equipment older than yourself.

As long as it's not a toothbrush.

I envy you the Bridgeport.

[Canuck]

So a Series 1 Bridgeport will be arriving next week. I haven't run the serial number yet but it's an early-ish one, maybe older than me. There is something reassuring about having a piece of equipment older than yourself. Provides continuity.

[cheapracer]

Never mind.... I broke down and got a Bridgeport. I was talking to a friend and he made me an offer I couldn't refuse, mostly because he couldn't stand the idea of an import machine sitting in my shop. Then yesterday I was unwrapping and assembling some equipment (an engine hoist) and while looking at that weird cardboard they use over there -- the kind fireworks comes in -- I asked myself, "Is this the stuff precision machine tools come in?" No, I don't think so.

So a Series 1 Bridgeport will be arriving next week. I haven't run the serial number yet but it's an early-ish one, maybe older than me. There is something reassuring about having a piece of equipment older than yourself. Provides continuity.

Cool, yell if you want mills for it, some of the used machinery outlets have shelves of them (used) and new ones abound in my city being an industrial one. Cheap as chips.

[McGuire]

As long as it's not a toothbrush.

I envy you the Bridgeport.

You will enjoy this:

http://www.craftsman....com/jordan.htm

[Tony Matthews]

You will enjoy this:

http://www.craftsman....com/jordan.htm

Amazing - thanks!

[McGuire]

As long as it's not a toothbrush.

I envy you the Bridgeport.

Well, here it is, all 2500 lbs of it and as you can see, you needn't be totally envious. Obviously, the machine is highly... experienced. Finally got it hauled into the shop and set up, including the 220V/three-phase current required to operate it.

Specifically, this is a Bridgeport J Head vertical knee turret mill, manufactured in 1964 according to its serial number. No CNC, DRO, or automated functions, totally manual including the table feeds and step-pulley change speeds in the spindle head. I have a couple of youngsters around who looked it over very intently -- I think they were looking for data ports. (I told them it's a manual SLA center that makes real parts, har.) Yesterday morning I adjusted the gibs to ~0 and table backlash to .003", and squared the head to .0005" in 12" in the X, Y, and Z planes. So while the machine looks a bit long in the tooth, it's sound as a drum. These old step-pulley Bridgeports are very smooth and quiet, which I am already starting to appreciate. I also installed a tool holder on the left side of the column with a full set of R8 collets (shown). There are a few things that require fixing... lock handles replaced with bolts over the decades, one belt guard broken, rules and protractors faded, etc. But fortunately, most every single part of any Bridgeport is still available, unlike a lot of other machine tools. All that will be made shipshape. Beyond that, I need to decide if I want to repaint and detail the machine or just leave it alone and call it patina.

[OfficeLinebacker]

I vote for patina.

[desmo]

Patina. Pretty tools are like pretty pick-up trucks- unless they are new they just look too precious and unserious to me that way.

[McGuire]

Working on a project vehicle recently, I was told the trick to using hole saw-based tubing notchers like the Joint Jigger brand, according to a top fabricator who uses them more or less exclusively -- even with machine tools sitting a few feet away. I didn't ask for permission to quote him but if you read the car mags or go to the trade shows you have probably seen his work, which is world class.

What he says: The hole saws that come with the Joint Jigger are Lenox brand, and you must take good care of them, using the proper cutting speed and feed, etc. Other brands of hole saws, even high-quality, high-priced pieces including Starrett, won't work as well or last nearly as long. Some common retail brands might last one cut. But if used properly and not abused, the Lenox hole saw will make hundreds of clean cuts, even with 4130. Apparently, it has properties that are ideal for this purpose, perhaps inadvertently -- he's tried every other brand of hole saw he could find, without success.

[Bloggsworth]

Did you read the article? Like Lotus, McKee was running coolant through frame tubes to a front-mounted radiator. The stainless tubes were obviously better suited to this old trick, whereas old Lotus frames (e.g. Lotus 51 Formula Fords) have lots of internal corrosion issues.

As most formula cars were never expected to reach their 3rd birthday, leave alone their 20th, corrosion was never thought a problem. I ran a 1967 FF in 71/72 and corrosion never reared its head. The principal reason for dropping the practice was the possibility of rescue teams scalding themselves when cutting into a water carrying tube, and spraying boiling water at 15PSI all over themselves.

Edited by Bloggsworth, 31 May 2010 - 21:41.

[Canuck]

Thing of beauty McGuire - my vote goes for patina too unless of course you're willing to strip it completely and massage all the bumps and nicks out of the casting. Repainted equipment looks suspicious to me - it's invariably over top of several other coats so the nicks and chips now look like dents and it makes me wonder what it wasthey were tryng to hide.

2 things I'd install on my Bridgeport: power tool-changer (assuming you're going to use more than one tool on a regular basis). If you're just spotting a hole it ends up taking more wrench time to drop out the face mill, install the spot, remove the spot and install the drill than I does to use all three of the tools. OTOH, they tend to be loud.

X-axis power feed.

(but those are just me)

[McGuire]

Meh, can't see the need for a power drawbar. The collets swap out manually in about five seconds each. I am enjoying myself, not trying to do production. And as you say, they are noisy.

I have an X-axis power feed I can stick on there, but don't really have a need for it yet. First use will be making some small two-piece hardwood dies. (Sheetmetal pressings for the '32 Ford project.) So I will be freehanding mainly, using the mill as more of a precision router.

I do have a production job possibly shaping up, but I need only around 50 sets of pieces. For that I will make the prototype and then subcontract the 50. (Simple job, a multi-part plate fixture.) If it takes off from there and I need a few thousand more, maybe I'll drag in a CNC machine.

[dosco]

Meh, can't see the need for a power drawbar. The collets swap out manually in about five seconds each. I am enjoying myself, not trying to do production. And as you say, they are noisy.

I have an X-axis power feed I can stick on there, but don't really have a need for it yet. First use will be making some small two-piece hardwood dies. (Sheetmetal pressings for the '32 Ford project.) So I will be freehanding mainly, using the mill as more of a precision router.

I do have a production job possibly shaping up, but I need only around 50 sets of pieces. For that I will make the prototype and then subcontract the 50. (Simple job, a multi-part plate fixture.) If it takes off from there and I need a few thousand more, maybe I'll drag in a CNC machine.

Nice mill.

I vote for "patina."

[Melbourne Park]

I vote for patina.

But get any surface rust off please.