1318 replies to this topic

[Turini]

OK, I'll give you that one rally - so what about all the others? Loeb hasn't won EVERY rally over the last five years (even if it feels like it) so there were plenty of opportunities for Sordo to step up to the plate. And he didn't. But already Ogier did. So no surprise that Citroen want Seb Mk2 rather than Dani.

It's not the comparison with Ogier or whoever that matters to me, it's the fact Quesnel is pretending the evil Citroen board didn't allow him to run a third car because Citroen is in big financial trouble - it's absolutely ridiculous considering the kind of money Citroen is spending on their WRC project. What is way more probable in my opinion is that Citroen simply couldn't care less to keep Sordo.

Sordo's had a tough year, a difficult start to the season which definitely knocked his confidence a bit. But if you actually call yourself a team, you stand behind your drivers and you show that you're supporting them even when things aren't going like planned. Did Citroen do that? No, unless you would say demoting Sordo to the Junior Team for the gravel rounds was showing their support for Dani.

Despite all my criticism against Malcolm Wilson, I have to admit Ford looks more like a team to me. When Latvala went through really tough period with crashes and bad performances, they still supported him and now this is really showing effect...

I just hope for Sordo he finds a drive for next year. If Wilson, Al Qassimi etc. get a World Rally Car for next year, he definitely deserves one as well...

Edited by Turini, 30 October 2010 - 21:35.

[BRG]

Sordo's had a tough year, a difficult start to the season which definitely knocked his confidence a bit. But if you actually call yourself a team, you stand behind your drivers and you show that you're supporting them even when things aren't going like planned. Did Citroen do that? No, unless you would say demoting Sordo to the Junior Team for the gravel rounds was showing their support for Dani.

But it isn't just 2010 is it? Citroen have given Sordo 5 seasons during which the best he has managed is third in the WRC. If Loeb could come first each of those years, surely it is not unreasonable for Citroen to expect their #2 driver to take second place in the WRC at least once. Ogier has (probably) managed that in his second season without even being the official #2. I think Citroen have given Sordo a more than fair chance but they cannot be sentimental for ever. Sordo just hasn't got that last little bit of edge that separates the winners from the rest. He isn't the first - Loix was a similar case - all that time at Mitsubishi with no wins and people said that having Tommi Makinen as team-mate was the problem (but Burns replaced him and quickly scored a win, just as Ogier has)

But I agree with you that Sordo ought to get some seat at WRC level - he is certainly more deserving than some others, as you rightly say.

[Mary Popsins]

*edit* off topic. For whatever reason.

Edited by Mary Popsins, 04 November 2010 - 17:42.

[Turini]

Yes, it's nicer, but it's also stupid drivel. Who really believes Citroen all of a sudden can't afford to run a third factory car anymore?

What's so wrong in saying publicly that Sordo didn't fulfill Citroen's expectations?

[saunarobot]

PSA Group made a 1,3 billion euros of profit last year, wouldn't call that as "struggling".

[ArnageWRC]

PSA Group made a 1,3 billion euros of profit last year, wouldn't call that as "struggling".

Despite what we are told, the sport is still in a mess. If Sordo is needing to bring a money for a budget then nothing much has changed. Okay, so he’s not a number 1 driver, but he racks up consistent top 5/6 finishes, plus podiums on Tarmac. He should have a seat – maybe the FiA should have insisted on 3-car teams, allowing for the ‘specialist’ driver – which always added something to the mix in days gone by; Liatti on Tar, Eriksson on gravel/snow for example.
If Ford are serious, they should sign him up pronto – unfortunately, they’re needing money for drives. I would like to know how much money Ford actually put in – seeing as M-Sport rely on AbuDhabi-BPCastrol for sponsorship, and require pay drivers.

[Turini]

Despite what we are told, the sport is still in a mess. If Sordo is needing to bring a money for a budget then nothing much has changed. Okay, so he’s not a number 1 driver, but he racks up consistent top 5/6 finishes, plus podiums on Tarmac. He should have a seat – maybe the FiA should have insisted on 3-car teams, allowing for the ‘specialist’ driver – which always added something to the mix in days gone by; Liatti on Tar, Eriksson on gravel/snow for example.

They should have never disallowed them in the first place!

When I look back at, for example, line-ups in 2002:

Peugeot: Burns, Gronholm, Panizzi/Rovanpera
Ford: Sainz, C. McRae, Martin
Mitsubishi: Delecour, A. McRae, Paasonen
Subaru: Makinen, P. Solberg
Skoda: Eriksson, Gardemeister, Kresta
Hyundai: Schwarz, Loix, Kankkunen

You can only dream of such a level these days...

Edited by Turini, 01 November 2010 - 11:53.

[ArnageWRC]

Yes, absolutely. And until we have that many Manufacturers and drivers, the sport can’t claim to be ‘fixed’. Things are looking up, rumours of any one of VW, Toyota, and Saab – but until they are actually confirmed, rumours they will stay.

I can recommend the October Motorsport magazine podcast which is a WRC special – an interesting listen.

[Turini]

Thanks for the recommendation...

Some very interesting comments, especially on the new cars, but my goodness, some comments were really complete nonsense too. North One, the new global promoter, who is going to invest in the championship. That almost qualifies for joke of the year - same for Stobart and Citroen Junior Team that they are very useful for bringing new talents into the sport - apart from Ogier, there hasn't been anybody, and Stobart rather got rid of their talented drivers, Duval, Galli, Aava...

And what does Matthew Wilson mean that he's unlucky that there's only two manufacturers and four works drives? If there would be competition like in 2002 he would struggle to be in the top 15 in every rally...

The top comment was this though (from Malcolm): The drivers in IRC are not as good as the top drivers in the WRC (what I don't necessarily disagree with, but just hear the reasoning!), because you see when Juho Hanninen comes to the WRC, he is far away from the top WRC drivers - shocking, especially since Hanninen drove a Skoda S2000... he still led the S2000 class on both events he entered... and then when asked about night stages back in the WRC, the WRC has to think about the safety aspect... so those untalented IRC drivers are actually more courageous, or what??

But thumbs up to the interviewers, they asked the right questions, which is not often the case with some others...

Edited by Turini, 01 November 2010 - 14:37.

[ArnageWRC]

Yes, there were some interesting ‘comments’, and I agree with you about the safety aspect regarding night stages. Is this an excuse not to run them?
I actually think it helped that the interviewers/ panel were mainly circuit racing journalists – I mean, Nigel Roebuck, is probably the doyen of Motorsport journalists.

[FlatOverCrest]

And what does Matthew Wilson mean that he's unlucky that there's only two manufacturers and four works drives? If there would be competition like in 2002 he would struggle to be in the top 15 in every rally...
The top comment was this though (from Malcolm): The drivers in IRC are not as good as the top drivers in the WRC (what I don't necessarily disagree with, but just hear the reasoning!), because you see when Juho Hanninen comes to the WRC, he is far away from the top WRC drivers - shocking, especially since Hanninen drove a Skoda S2000... he still led the S2000 class on both events he entered... and then when asked about night stages back in the WRC, the WRC has to think about the safety aspect... so those untalented IRC drivers are actually more courageous, or what??
But thumbs up to the interviewers, they asked the right questions, which is not often the case with some others...

Someone wants to tell Malcolm...that Hanninen could hand his son's best efforts to him on a plate if given the same car!

I find it hilarious that this is now not just the first time that someone from the WRC in a senior position, derides the IRC and it's drivers. Does he really feel he has to try and make the WRC seem better than the IRC? Surely everyone knows the WRC 'should' be the pinnacle of all the worlds rally drivers! Unfortunately... many of those in WRC machines, could easily be beaten by the front runners of the IRC, if given equal machines. For example, Matt Wilson, Kalid al Qassimi, Raikkonen, Block, possibly even Sordo, could all potentially be beaten by the likes of Hanninen, Wilks, Meeke, Kopecky, Loix, let alone Duval, Atkinson or Galli.

[Turini]

Interesting isn't it, that nobody involved in the IRC feels it's necessary to do the same with the WRC... I think the strongest comment I ever heard from Lotti - and then again, it is not even criticism, just a statement of fact - about the world championship was that "the WRC is about manufacturers chasing a title for a budget three times higher than in IRC, while IRC is simply a championship for the fans".

I have the feeling, and correct me if I'm wrong, that quite a few of the guys involved in the world championship are a bit bitter about the fact that the IRC has gained a lot of momentum in very little time, while the WRC has simply lost it in the past years, and that even the arrival of Mini next year has not brought this expected "explosion" of interest in the championship that many were hoping for... but then again all it takes for the WRC to get back on the right track, is the people involved in the WRC to realise that it is first and foremost a sport, not a platform for their business, political or other personal interests... but sadly I just don't see that happening, as long as people such as Jean Todt, Simon Long, and those two utterly funny (because they are) team principals are the people in control...

[alfista]

About Aava, you're actually being unfair to Malcolm Wilson. He actually got TWO rides in the Stobart last season before they dropped him like an old potato.

Actually he only had a budget for two rallies. But up to that point he was speed-wise the best non-factory driver so IMO a great talent got wasted.

[Craigf]

This generation of wrc drivers need to man up. They've got it way too easy. Last week it was mixed stages are too dangerous and now night stages aswell. Rallying is supposed to be a challenge. The cars need to be more challenging to drive aswell.

[ArnageWRC]

If the people involved at the FiA/ISC/Manufacturers had done their collective jobs properly - the IRC would never have been born. They all took their eyes off the ball, and voila!! A new series giving new Manufacturers, fans, etc what they wanted. Simple.
Personally, i feel the autumn of 2005 was when alarm bells were ringing - Skoda, Mitsubishi, Peugeot, and the factory Citroen all pull out. So the FiA introduced SupeRally!!!!! Hmmm.....not what was needed. New regs should have been discussed as a matter of emergency, but no. To lose one is unlucky, two is unfortunate, but 3-4 tells you something is majorly wrong with your sport!!
Stop trying to make it into something it isn't - it's not F1 and never will be - also realise it's not going to be a 'Premier League sport', there's nothing wrong with having a successful niche/minority sport. Knowing your place is pretty important. Sadly, it's lost it's connection with Joe Public - it will take a lot of work to even get a little back.
Also, it might help by not continually clashing with F1 - simply idiotic planning.

[FlatOverCrest]

If the people involved at the FiA/ISC/Manufacturers had done their collective jobs properly - the IRC would never have been born. They all took their eyes off the ball, and voila!! A new series giving new Manufacturers, fans, etc what they wanted. Simple.
Personally, i feel the autumn of 2005 was when alarm bells were ringing - Skoda, Mitsubishi, Peugeot, and the factory Citroen all pull out. So the FiA introduced SupeRally!!!!! Hmmm.....not what was needed. New regs should have been discussed as a matter of emergency, but no. To lose one is unlucky, two is unfortunate, but 3-4 tells you something is majorly wrong with your sport!!
Stop trying to make it into something it isn't - it's not F1 and never will be - also realise it's not going to be a 'Premier League sport', there's nothing wrong with having a successful niche/minority sport. Knowing your place is pretty important. Sadly, it's lost it's connection with Joe Public - it will take a lot of work to even get a little back.
Also, it might help by not continually clashing with F1 - simply idiotic planning.

You know one of the very simplest things they could have done this year to generate interest.... "WRCkhana"... the video starts off with Mr Block and his Fiesta.. only to be told on the 3rd second of the 5 second countdown to his usual run.... "Hang on a minute Ken.... a couple of other guys want a go!" To which Loeb, Solberg, Latvala, Ogier, Hirvonen... all go blasting past at 10 second intervals... and do a WRC gymkhana... with the end of the video coming back to Block sitting in his car saying... "Can I go now?"..... It would be a funny...but proper way to introduce the WRC guys to the millions and I do mean millions of fans watching Block's videos.

Did they do it..... Nooooooooooooo

why?

Because NOS could not market their way out of a paper bag!!!

[ArnageWRC]

How are they going to market the final round? RallyGB is the same weekend as the final F1 Grand Prix.......how many journalists will turn up? The F1 journos quite often covered the old RAC - quite often as co-drivers.

As for the lack of marketing - you're forgeting when they dressed up as Roman centurions in Jordan!!

[Yorkie]

This year there was only 6 credible drivers, Loeb, Ogier, Sordo, Solberg, Latvala and Hirvonen, can they afford to lose a competive driver? I guess it will be better for the pay drivers like Wilson, Raikkonen and Block whilst other drivers who actually have talent/potential will never get a chance to prove their worth.

[Turini]

It's probably nothing else than a summary of the previous posts, but I'll just list the main issues I see currently:

• Mediocre media exposure of the championship, as the WRC's main TV partner is a niche pay-TV broadcaster
• Mediocre promotion of the single events, not helped by clashes with F1
• Questionable selection of events, as popular events with huge fan interest are threatened to be dropped in favour of events in countries with big "car markets" which only benefit ISC+manufacturers
• Manufacturers have too much control over the championship, concerning technical regulations (engine format) as well as sporting regulations (format of events)
• The FIA, which now under Todt's leadership has some good ideas (longer events, GT cars etc.), but has also adopted a quite weird policy of appeasement towards the manufacturers (engine format) but also towards the promoter (not showing them the door)

How to fix this? The FIA has to show they are in control of the championship, not the promoter, nor the manufacturers. In addition to that, the agreement with ISC should be cancelled ASAP. I dearly hope Max cared enough to put some get-out clause when he negotiated the promotion contract with ISC, because otherwise, the soonest possible the WRC will get rid of their miserable promoter is 2020 - and let's be serious, the WRC doesn't have 10 years to get back on track. The damage done is already very difficult to repair, if things don't improve significantly in the next 2 or 3 years, it's going to take ages to make rallying an attractive platform for manufacturers again. To do that though, Todt will have to realise that he cannot avoid to step on toes forever.

[Turini]

Are Wilson and Quesnel having a contest in who can say the most nonsense in a short period of time, or what:

http://www.maxrally....for_privateers/

We know that if Petter will stay with Citroen, his car will be run by Citroen Sport, so he won't be a real "privateer" anymore...

And is he really trying to tell us that the M-Sport run BP Abu Dhabi cars will be challenged by the M-Sport run Stobarts, the M-Sport run Munchi's and the M-Sport run Monster cars? Yeah, right...

And from what I hear neither Citroen or Ford want to supply independents, so you will have Citroen-run DS3s, and M-Sport-run Fiestas, nothing new...

However, one interesting piece of information in there, is that all cars are going to be identical - at least in Ford's case. In this case Ford could potentially give Sordo a factory car, which runs under a different name, and swap him with one of the BP Abu Dhabi drivers on tarmac rallies, to maximize their manufacturer points (except if the current nomination system gets dropped, then this is not necessary).

Edited by Turini, 01 November 2010 - 22:44.

[Craigf]

Cant see the stobart munchi and monster teams gettin the same updates as the full works team.

[Turini]

Cant see the stobart munchi and monster teams gettin the same updates as the full works team.

How can you not believe Malcolm Wilson, he would never say something like this if it wasn't true...;)

I have to say though, this single comment from Malcolm probably is more promotion for the WRC 2011 than what North One did so far...

Edited by Turini, 01 November 2010 - 23:39.

[artista]

About Sordo,

He was interviewed yesterday night on Onda Cero (a Spanish nation-wide radio station) regarding his future. I have made a little summary about what he said:

Citroën:
It’s true they have worsened the offer they are making him, but he admits he should have already won at least one “race” yet and Ogier is doing very well.
He considers the current situation is not the team’s fault.
Citroën has really reduced their budget for racing and the money they had to offer Ogier to exceed Ford’s offer is not helping.
Citroën offered him in Finland a 10 rallies season (all except the three overseas), but they have reduced that number now.
If he gets a sponsor he could stay in the team, but it would be in the “satellite team” and he would have to put a lot of money in it.
If he has to pay to drive, then he prefers to pay to drive in another team.

Mini:
He has an interesting offer from mini. It would not be a commercial agreement.
Problem: they’re not going to be a top team next season and they’re not going to do a full season in 2011.

Ford:
It’s one of his objectives.
Ford asked him for a little bit of time but also told him to call them again before signing anywhere else.

[FlatOverCrest]

About Sordo,

He was interviewed yesterday night on Onda Cero (a Spanish nation-wide radio station) regarding his future. I have made a little summary about what he said:

Citroën:
It’s true they have worsened the offer they are making him, but he admits he should have already won at least one “race” yet and Ogier is doing very well.
He considers the current situation is not the team’s fault.
Citroën has really reduced their budget for racing and the money they had to offer Ogier to exceed Ford’s offer is not helping.
Citroën offered him in Finland a 10 rallies season (all except the three overseas), but they have reduced that number now.
If he gets a sponsor he could stay in the team, but it would be in the “satellite team” and he would have to put a lot of money in it.
If he has to pay to drive, then he prefers to pay to drive in another team.

Mini:
He has an interesting offer from mini. It would not be a commercial agreement.
Problem: they’re not going to be a top team next season and they’re not going to do a full season in 2011.

Ford:
It’s one of his objectives.
Ford asked him for a little bit of time but also told him to call them again before signing anywhere else.

Interesting, ta for that.

[Turini]

About Sordo,

He was interviewed yesterday night on Onda Cero (a Spanish nation-wide radio station) regarding his future. I have made a little summary about what he said:

Citroën:
It’s true they have worsened the offer they are making him, but he admits he should have already won at least one “race” yet and Ogier is doing very well.
He considers the current situation is not the team’s fault.
Citroën has really reduced their budget for racing and the money they had to offer Ogier to exceed Ford’s offer is not helping.
Citroën offered him in Finland a 10 rallies season (all except the three overseas), but they have reduced that number now.
If he gets a sponsor he could stay in the team, but it would be in the “satellite team” and he would have to put a lot of money in it.
If he has to pay to drive, then he prefers to pay to drive in another team.

Mini:
He has an interesting offer from mini. It would not be a commercial agreement.
Problem: they’re not going to be a top team next season and they’re not going to do a full season in 2011.

Ford:
It’s one of his objectives.
Ford asked him for a little bit of time but also told him to call them again before signing anywhere else.

Thanks!

About Citroen reducing their budget, it's interesting to hear, but I seriously don't know what to think about this. Really if you consider how their WRC project developed in the early 2000's and how much money Citroen invested, I find it hard, if not impossible, to believe that now Citroen is switching to economy mode - as someone pointed out earlier, it's not like PSA is financially in the red zone, and after all rally is currently PSA's main racing operation. Why start counting your euros one by one now?

Ford is the safest choice for next year, but Prodrive would be the more "courageous" and interesting one, in my opinion. We'll see...

Edited by Turini, 02 November 2010 - 12:32.

[FlatOverCrest]

it's not like PSA is financially in the red zone, and after all rally is currently PSA's main racing operation. Why start counting your euros one by one now?

No sir... their largest budget goes into their sportscars programme.

[Turini]

I didn't mean from a financial point of view - probably a little linguistic challenge for me here. It's clear to me a sportscar programme is more expensive than rally (other way around would be shocking), but Le Mans is one event in a long year, WRC is a whole year (almost). I know there's other endurance races where Peugeot compete as well, however aren't most of them used precisely as preparation for the 24 hours?

So, why cut back on your financial resources for the WRC - especially when the regulations are changing and you will need to develop the car. What I think is more likely is Citroen is simply not ready to pay more than 2 drivers to be able to spend huge amounts again on the development of the DS3 WRC. I think they are also confronted with a bit of a new challenge in terms of development time. The Xsara WRC and C4 WRC had a much longer development period than the DS3 WRC, as far as I can recall.

Edited by Turini, 02 November 2010 - 13:22.

[FlatOverCrest]

I didn't mean from a financial point of view - probably a little linguistic challenge for me here. It's clear to me a sportscar programme is more expensive than rally (other way around would be shocking), but Le Mans is one event in a long year, WRC is a whole year (almost). I know there's other endurance races where Peugeot compete as well, however aren't most of them used precisely as preparation for the 24 hours?

So, why cut back on your financial resources for the WRC - especially when the regulations are changing and you will need to develop the car. What I think is more likely is Citroen is simply not ready to pay more than 2 drivers to be able to spend huge amounts again on the development of the DS3 WRC. I think they are also confronted with a bit of a new challenge in terms of development time. The Xsara WRC and C4 WRC had a much longer development period than the DS3 WRC, as far as I can recall.

Hehehe no problem mate.

I agree....I personally find it utterly bizarre that you would come up with a brand new engine concept formula, that requires considerable investment in a very short space of time and then complain about budget restrictions and shrinking budget, that effects how many works cars they can run??

Again...the decision to run 1.6 Turbo engined cars in 2011 rather than say 2013 was absolutely ASININE!!!! There were five principle men in this decision... Simon Long, Malcolm Wilson, Olivier Quesnel, Morrie Chandler and Max Mosley. These five clowns made a bad choice.

2011 SHOULD have been S2000+ with normally aspirated 2 litre engines, allowing at least 5-7 manufacturers to agree the new engine format for 2013.

[ArnageWRC]

Maybe winning Le Mans delivers more than a whole string of victories in the WRC season........

As for the engine regs – well it’s been well discussed about what should have happened. Ford/Citroen had far too much say in the regs, of course they were keen on what suited them best. They didn’t want to lose their advantage, which while having sympathy with – isn’t thinking about what’s best for the sport.
Something is wrong with the sport when Sordo hasn’t got a permament drive……How many drivers are actually paid?? That should tell you how strong the sport is.

[Turini]

When I hear comments like this...

http://www.maxrally....key_says_quinn/

“The most important thing here is that we work together,” said Quinn. “We can’t have these changes imposed upon us. We need to realise why we have the current format [of rallies] before we throw the baby out with the bathwater. There’s a whole raft of reasons why the sport has grown and developed in the way that it has recently and we have to consider those reasons when we’re looking to the future. For example, Ford and M-Sport would not have the 10 or 12 cars we’ve seen on rallies at this level if it wasn’t for the current regulations. We need to make sure we are replacing what we have with something better – and we need to work towards this together.”

I feel this is a little bit like what happened last year in Formula 1 with the dispute between the teams and the FIA. The competitors want to make the rules, but in any serious sport the competitors have to obey to the rules. If they don't want to, they are free to leave. Obviously in WRC's case currently with only two manufacturers, to make a move like is potentially suicide for the championship. But really, if the manufacturers continue to dictate everything in the WRC, it is not a serious sport anymore. F1 decided to give teams more power and now nobody can tell who is really making the rules. I guess it's a difficult call for the FIA and for Todt - still, does the FIA want to be dependent on two manufacturers who have clearly zero interest in making the sport open and attractive again? I wouldn't mind if Citroen and Ford would quit and if other manufacturers, superior in number, and not obsessed to control everything in the WRC, would join.

I'm curious how David Richards will fit into this whole picture, whether he will maybe defend other interests than Quesnel and Wilson. But considering he was the head honcho at ISC, I'm not too optimistic.

ASININE!!!!

Thank you very much for adding a new word to my English vocabulary

Edited by Turini, 02 November 2010 - 15:03.

[ArnageWRC]

Sorry for laughing – the “sport has developed and grown “ er, …when was that???? The sport was hi-jacked by money makers, and sold to the devil. Compare the RAC Rally of 15 years ago to the sorry modern version – known as WAG RallyGB. Will it have live terrestrial TV coverage, live updates on national radio, previews in the motoring and national papers????
However, is it making a shedload of money for the Manufacturers, ISC-NorthOne, IMS, etc

[FlatOverCrest]

For example, Ford and M-Sport would not have the 10 or 12 cars we’ve seen on rallies at this level if it wasn’t for the current regulations.

Bingo... we have a winner!

So the 10 or 12 cars are 2 factory cars and a bunch of privateer cars, because the regulations and management have driven away the other manufacturers, leaving competitors with no other choice than a Focus or a C4 and hardly anyone can get a C4...hmmmm I wonder why he is supporting the regs as they stand...

[Turini]

FIA decided today the introduction of the new R4 category and is working on solutions to allow GT cars in WRC events too:

RALLYING

From January 2011 a new Group R4 category will be created. A kit, homologated by the manufacturers of current Group N cars, will be made available for these 2-litre turbo Group N cars to ensure they can remain competitive with the Super 2000 cars.

To increase competition and the spectacle in all FIA Rally Championship events, the WMSC has agreed to the principle of studying technical regulations which may potentially permit GT cars to compete in these events.

http://fia.com/en-GB...msc_031110.aspx

[ArnageWRC]

What solutions are they working on? Just let them in – Porsche already build a racer virtually ready made, the 911 GT3!! Stop dawdling, let them in. NOW!!
Remember when Sportscars were part of the WRC?? 911, Stratos, Alpine-Renault, etc

[FlatOverCrest]

What solutions are they working on? Just let them in – Porsche already build a racer virtually ready made, the 911 GT3!! Stop dawdling, let them in. NOW!!
Remember when Sportscars were part of the WRC?? 911, Stratos, Alpine-Renault, etc

Agreed...its truly pathetic!! GT's have been running in Belgium for years, cars like M3's, 911 GT3 RS's, 350Z's.... all are great to watch.

What this comes down to...is the manufacturers in WRC, namely Ford and Citroen, probably throwing their toys out of the pram, on the off-chance that a very well peddled Porsche 911 GT3RS 3.8 Litre Flat 6 might in fact beat their new 'Let's be socially seen as green' Wheezbox 1.6L Turbos and more importatly...attract greater support from the fans, due to the noise these cars make, the way they look and the way they go.... Hardly what Ford and Citroen want breathing down their necks...

Personally I think it is very simple. Allow any FIA GT car, they simply cannot get WRC points if they run on championship rounds.

In a bizarre twist of fate.... maybe the utter incompetence of NOS and the lack of entrants on WRC events, might in fact force them to introduce GT cars and then once again, many will have great reason to go to WRC and National events and watch some 'proper' cars for a change!!

I know I would try an run a 911GT3 RS in a heartbeat if it were allowed on National and International events....

Edited by FlatOverCrest, 04 November 2010 - 19:16.

[Turini]

As I said a few times in this thread, there were rumours about Suzuki building a Super 2000 car for WRC (when 1.6T engine wasn't yet decided) with Urmo Aava, but those were over a year ago, now this has appeared:

http://www.maxrally....he_world_stage/

Monster Sport Europe will now take over the running of all Suzuki rally cars on the World Rally Championship as well as other national and international series. Tajima also hinted at other research projects, such as the development of a Super 2000 car that could go on to become a World Rally Car. Former Suzuki driver Urmo Aava has been approached in connection with the project.

[vtpachyderm]

Would bringing back homologation rules a-la group B work? 200 cars available to purchase worldwide (not necessarily sold)? Maybe in such a way that the parts are all available through dealers - kinda like the STi, brabus packages. That way, manufacturers recoup some costs. I know Group N is similar, but I was thinking about having more extreme machines?

[ArnageWRC]

Would bringing back homologation rules a-la group B work? 200 cars available to purchase worldwide (not necessarily sold)? Maybe in such a way that the parts are all available through dealers - kinda like the STi, brabus packages. That way, manufacturers recoup some costs. I know Group N is similar, but I was thinking about having more extreme machines?

The Manufacturers don't want it - hence why the WRCar formula was brought in, in 1997. Producing 'Homologation specials' cost too much, and weren't cost effective. However, I can remember being in Hafren in the early 90's and in the car park; Escort RS Cosworth, Toyota Celica Turbo 4WD, Lancia Delta, Sierra RS Cosworth, Mazda 323, Nissan Sunny GTi-R - all road versions of the cars on the stages. Now, nothing - a warm C4 by Loeb, and a FocusRS which is FWD 2.5LTurbo - so basically, a ST, breathed on.
Personally, I think that 4WD has proved it's worth, now forget it. Most road cars are 2WD - so go that route. Look at the 'hot hatch' sector, imagine Rally versions of them. You could have a lot of Manufacturers. Won't happen, Ford/Citroen won't allow it - and they run the show - or so it seems.

[sir jackie walker]

A kit, homologated by the manufacturers of current Group N cars, will be made available for these 2-litre turbo Group N cars to ensure they can remain competitive with the Super 2000 cars

What's the need to keep Gr.N competitive, when there's PWRC and SWRC?

[ArnageWRC]

What's the need to keep Gr.N competitive, when there's PWRC and SWRC?

Why are the GpN cars being given extra performance. They were always meant to be a cheap entry into the sport. Not any more. £$£$£$£$ is ruining the sport.

[Turini]

Slowly I become more hopeful about the future of the WRC...

http://www.maxrally....oney_says_todt/

[BRG]

What's the need to keep Gr.N competitive, when there's PWRC and SWRC?

P(Production)WRC is Group N

[sir jackie walker]

P(Production)WRC is Group N

I do know PWRC is Gr.N. What I tried to say, is why Gr.N should be competitive against S2000, when they are not directly competing in WRC, as the support championships were just separated for '10.

Outside WRC it makes sense, though. I believe S2000 and real N face each other directly in many national championships, and the Gr.N cars aren't selling as they used to.

[Galka]

Some news about Novikov.
He announced to Russian media that he quit his rally career.
It's a pity, the guy is a crasher but he was fun to watch.

[Turini]

Bye bye, Morrie Chandler...

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/87973

Finally, some heads are rolling...

Edited by Turini, 06 November 2010 - 11:41.

[kosmic33]

has there been anything actually confirmed as regards the r4 rules?
ie:sequential boxes, brakes, suspension mounting, shell lightening, drives and most importantof all, exhausts!

The rules have obviously been decided for some time - the megane r4 has been testing for a while (and sounds like it has a sequential box)

[alfista]

Bye bye, Morrie Chandler...
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/87973
Finally, some heads are rolling...

Good news, but isn't it too late?

[Turini]

Good news, but isn't it too late?

We'll see. I hope not.

[FlatOverCrest]

Bye bye, Morrie Chandler...

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/87973

Finally, some heads are rolling...

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I had heard the quiet rumblings that such a move might happen, but thought it would be too good to be true....

Bye Morrie

At last...we have guys involved in the Rallies commission that actually know a little something about the sport, but more importantly, truly love the sport... AGAIN....BLOODY WELL DONE JEAN TODT!!!

Now... I think someone else's replacement is 'LONG' overdue!!!

[FlatOverCrest]

has there been anything actually confirmed as regards the r4 rules?
ie:sequential boxes, brakes, suspension mounting, shell lightening, drives and most importantof all, exhausts!

The rules have obviously been decided for some time - the megane r4 has been testing for a while (and sounds like it has a sequential box)

I dont think so sir. However I have been trying to get hold of someone at the FIA for a few weeks to confirm exactly what is and is not going to be allowed in R4, with not much joy.

For me personally, I feel the FIA is missing the most fundamental and simple solution to help increase competitor numbers at International level. It is something I have wanted for a long time, namely a KIT that is approved to make ANY Group N car, convertible into an R4 car.

I.e. FIA does a deal with say Xtrac, Sadef and Quaife to provide sequential gearboxes and four-wheel drive system that can be bolted onto any car for less than £20,000. They then also approve a nmber of other manufacturers for key parts like ECU, suspension etc. So essentially for £50,000 of parts, you can go and convert your DS3 or Clio, or any other car that is homologated in Group N 2 litre form and it can then become an R4 rally car. Limited restrictor, output etc. Each car would have to get a special R4 roadbook, where the engine is BHP checked and then sealed. Basically, allowing people to build their own car to a sensible budget...while adding huge variety to the stages! This would also stop the likes of Subaru and Mitsubishi from ever increasing pricing, which SHOULD be affordable cars for national competition.

It is a simple idea...and I hope someone might, just might, realise that people should be allowed to build cars that they can take International rallying that are 4WD and have 2L Turbos, without having to fork out and arm and a leg.