Never overstimate an Alonso fan. You can add another mistake to my tally.
Mistakes are no issue at all, I think. Then lengths some go to cover them up, OTOH... wow.
Posted 01 September 2010 - 18:22
Never overstimate an Alonso fan. You can add another mistake to my tally.
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Posted 01 September 2010 - 18:58
The McLaren drivers were in a 1-2 situation in Turkey yet were allowed to race. Fair racing - simple. My point about Kova and Hamilton still stands from my previous post, no need to elaborate on that. What we do know however, is that Ferrari definitely don't employ fair racing in their team and this upsets their own fans (especially Massa supporters), the general fan base of the sport and even worse brings the sport into disrepute. This never happened at McLaren when Kova was there.Try to figure why Massa has been able to finish in front of Alonso sometimes, in Australia, for example. Despite obviously inferior speed on the day. Precisely because Ferrari didn't do there what was common between Ham and Kova at McLaren.
What you're in fact propagating is a predetermined 1-2 situation in which there wouldn't ever be the need for race specific teamorders on the radio, because it would have been made clear to all participants before the race how to behave.
Fair racing, yeah right...
Posted 01 September 2010 - 19:03
Mistakes are no issue at all, I think. Then lengths some go to cover them up, OTOH... wow.
Posted 01 September 2010 - 19:06
Yet the very existence of such a public act of favoritism instantly hints to private (behind the scenes) bias. I believe extrapolating in this way is pretty logical and acceptable. In any case there is more feeling and evidence towards the favoritism claims than against them. Anyway you know what I feel, I believe the team are now fully behind Alonso. What do you think? Favoritism or equality?How should I know about the 2nd option as I never claimed such? All I can tell you is that the first, i.e. deducting from a single documented case of team orders that Massa is constantly screwed by the team, is not bolstered by any further facts we know of.
Absolute load of rubbish.Actually the very issue of Massa needing to be ordered aside over the radio indicates that it was the first time this season any favouritism took place.
Posted 01 September 2010 - 19:11
And you are not understanding me. What I stated was that if Ferrari favor Alonso then by definition they will give him the most favorable options and backing. Furthermore that means Massa is getting lesser backing and thus is hindered. By hindered I mean not being given equal support. Which is pretty obvious really.You not understanding me... It's obvious that Ferrari are favouring Alonso in the sense that should Massa find himself ahead of Alonso he should move over. That's pretty evident if we go by Germany. What the other guy is saying is that Ferrari are hindering Massa, and I've only seen it happening once and that was Germany... So he must be implying that they are compromising his setups because I haven't seen evidence of them hindering Massa except that one instance. Can you mention another or can he?
Posted 01 September 2010 - 19:13
I thought so as well, and took that for granted when reading your original post in question. Seems others feel Alonso deserved those points ;) .The only mistake I made was to assume I was having a decent conversation about their relative performances. On my calculations I inverted the results from germany and didn't even mentioned it because I thought it was so obvious that it wasn't worth mentioning. And I admit, I was wrong for thinking we were having a decent and honest conversation. That was my mistake.
Edited by syph0nJZ05, 01 September 2010 - 19:13.
Posted 01 September 2010 - 19:24
Yet the very existence of such a public act of favoritism instantly hints to private (behind the scenes) bias. I believe extrapolating in this way is pretty logical and acceptable. In any case there is more feeling and evidence towards the favoritism claims than against them. Anyway you know what I feel, I believe the team are now fully behind Alonso. What do you think? Favoritism or equality?
You are the one talking smack here... Please provide me with some of what you are smoking. I also want to go to fantasy land.Absolute load of rubbish.
Posted 01 September 2010 - 19:34
Find a dictionary and look up the word extrapolating.Logical and acceptable without evidence? Makes alot of sense to me... Instead of making all these unsubstantiated claims why don't you just say that you hate Alonso and Ferrari and you wish the FIA just hand the constructors title to Mclaren and Hamilton and Button can flip a coin to see who takes home the drivers title.
Firstly I have already explained this to you: http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=4568280 . And secondly surely it is obvious that if a team puts all its support behind one driver by favoring that driver "in terms of results" (as you put it) then the other driver will miss out on some team backing that he should be entitled to. In the extreme this can manifest itself as an on track team order like we saw in Germany.And btw nobody is denying that Alonso is being favoured in terms of results. What you are doing, is implying that they are compromising Massa's setup and what not by your behind the scenes bias. So why don't you prove it? I haven't seen anything that suggest that.
What have I said that is so crazy. Or is it that I have not kissed the feet or your precious Alonso?You are the one talking smack here... Please provide me with some of what you are smoking. I also want to go to fantasy land.
Posted 01 September 2010 - 19:51
That's a tatic I wouldn't use since I don't think it's an honest one but hey, you are an Alonso fan and you probably don't pay too much attention to small things such as honesty and fairness.
Posted 01 September 2010 - 20:00
Find a dictionary and look up the word extrapolating.
Firstly I have already explained this to you: http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=4568280 . And secondly surely it is obvious that if a team puts all its support behind one driver by favoring that driver "in terms of results" (as you put it) then the other driver will miss out on some team backing that he should be entitled to. In the extreme this can manifest itself as an on track team order like we saw in Germany.
If you had said my precious Ferrari, then yes.;) And what you have said is crazy because it is unsubstantiated.What have I said that is so crazy. Or is it that I have not kissed the feet or your precious Alonso?
Posted 01 September 2010 - 21:28
Correct , well done, gold star. In my other post I said "the very existence of such a public act of favoritism instantly hints to private (behind the scenes) bias". That is me extrapolating. I am saying that since Ferrari have used public team orders on the track then surely they are favoring Alonso behind the scenes as well (maybe giving him better qualifying slots, the better pit-stop times etc). Seems reasonable doesn't it?I know exactly what it means...extrapolation is just conjecture.
Explained in multiple posts previously and briefly above. And just to clarify I think some of the top Ferrari officials have preferred Alonso for the entire season (something I cannot back up) but I believe that there was a substantial shift in support for Alonso circa Germany, hence the team orders.All you keep saying is that Ferrari are hindering Massa. Now I wanna know in what way? Setup? Updates? Because he has had all those... Or has Alonso taken all the best engineers to his side of the garage? Again no evidence of that... I want you to tell me how exactly Ferrari have been hindering Massa since you believe it has been happening before Germany...
Posted 01 September 2010 - 21:55
What a nice self-defeating sentence you created there, claiming the high ground in the first part only to switch to childish personal insults against a whole group of people in the second part. Impressive work!
I think the ship of meaningfull discussion has sailed but I'll try again. Massa outscored Alonso in the last 5 races(I'm talking legal, clean honest points not the get ou of my way 'this is ridiculous' points. Is it bold enough for you?)Not to speak of the claim that Massa outperforms Alonso lately - suggesting it's some kind of trend when in reality it only happened over one single weekend.
Now you are just confused but I'm going to try and help you out here. First of I said Alonso fans don't care a great deal for honesty, at the very least when picking a driver to support. Didnt say anything about the honesty of my observations. Now for the 'only Alonso fans' part. Saying all Alonso fans are stupid(I'm not saying it's true, it's just an example to help you understand) is not the same thing to say all the stupid people are Alonso fans.Mr. Honest, eh? Now go one and tell us what you really meant by "lately" and how it's only all those Alonso fans, all of them, that can't get the true meaning of your "honest" observations.
Edited by cardin, 01 September 2010 - 21:56.
Posted 01 September 2010 - 22:31
It was not my intention to insult you and please if you feel this way folow your own advice and report me. There's a logic to what I said. A very strong argument can be made for Alonso being the most repulsive guy on the grid nowdays. Just not to go to far, a couple of pages back an excerpt of his blog was posted in which he burps this pearl; "I could have done without going off the track, but it did not make a great difference". See what he did there with these two very dishonest phrases ? If you can't see it please let me know and I'll explain it to you. On a second tought I'll do it anyways. He minimized his own mistake by saying 3 points is nothing to talk about. That's utter bs in a tight championship like this one. That's one of the mildest displays of his character but I didn't want to go far to pick an example. If that and his last three and a half years of shenanigans don't bother or you can't recognize them then I'm right in my observations.
I think the ship of meaningfull discussion has sailed but I'll try again. Massa outscored Alonso in the last 5 races(I'm talking legal, clean honest points not the get ou of my way 'this is ridiculous' points. Is it bold enough for you?)
Now you are just confused but I'm going to try and help you out here. First of I said Alonso fans don't care a great deal for honesty, at the very least when picking a driver to support. Didnt say anything about the honesty of my observations. Now for the 'only Alonso fans' part. Saying all Alonso fans are stupid(I'm not saying it's true, it's just an example to help you understand) is not the same thing to say all the stupid people are Alonso fans.
Edited by as65p, 01 September 2010 - 22:31.
Posted 01 September 2010 - 22:46
Massa outscored Alonso in the last 5 races(I'm talking legal, clean honest points not the get ou of my way 'this is ridiculous' points. Is it bold enough for you?)
Posted 01 September 2010 - 22:55
Earlier this year he gave an interview, and it was published here in the Autosport website, congratulating himself for having colaborated with the FIA on the Ferrari stolen info afair. What was the extent of his colaboration ? After getting imunity to testify he corfirmed he exchanged emails with Pedro taking advantage of this info. Information he know it was stolen. It was a pitty Mosley was only after Ron. Does that bother you a little ? There's a lot more than that but I guess that should be enough.That's fine, get some relief, let it all out! So the underlined is your claim not only to Alonso being the most repulsive guy on the grid, but also everyone who supports him displaying serious character flaws? And everyone who doesn't agree with you is proof that you're right?
Hmm, I think we've really achieved something with our neat little conversation: I've hardly seen a more convincing display of a posters mindset than the above.
Edited by cardin, 01 September 2010 - 22:56.
Posted 01 September 2010 - 23:06
Posted 01 September 2010 - 23:14
Hadn't FM started 1.5m ahead of his position FA would have passed him on the start and the points standing would be different. But FM is a liar and a cheater who does not deserve the points he carries under his belt this year.I'm sure you're trying to make point but sorry, I didn't get it.
Posted 01 September 2010 - 23:20
Ahhh !!! It makes sense now.Hadn't FM started 1.5m ahead of his position FA would have passed him on the start and the points standing would be different. But FM is a liar and a cheater who does not deserve the points he carries under his belt this year.
Guessed right?
Posted 01 September 2010 - 23:34
Hadn't FM started 1.5m ahead of his position FA would have passed him on the start and the points standing would be different. But FM is a liar and a cheater who does not deserve the points he carries under his belt this year.
Guessed right?
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Posted 01 September 2010 - 23:43
I thought he did that so that he could avoid starting with a wheel on the white line...Hadn't FM started 1.5m ahead of his position FA would have passed him on the start and the points standing would be different. But FM is a liar and a cheater who does not deserve the points he carries under his belt this year.
Guessed right?
Posted 02 September 2010 - 03:09
Let me start by saying that i am Alonso fan. I think he is/was one of the most talented and smart personality of the grid. However, he is not the Alonso of '05 and '06. Probably the reasons for that are:I thought he did that so that he could avoid starting with a wheel on the white line...
Posted 02 September 2010 - 03:49
Let me start by saying that i am Alonso fan. I think he is/was one of the most talented and smart personality of the grid. However, he is not the Alonso of '05 and '06. Probably the reasons for that are:
1. He has accomplished in a relatively short period of time almost everything he wanted. Something that other drivers will probably will never have the opportunity even though talented (ie Kubica).
2. He got over-confident of his abilities and thinks that wins will come naturally. He does not have the fire that we show in '05 and '06
3. F1 nowdays burns drivers a lot faster than the part. He realized that through FIA and Stuarts manipulations ability and a fast car are not enough to take the title. He started recognizing that things are face, so why bother.
Posted 02 September 2010 - 08:11
Nah. You know I'm compleatelly unbiased when it comes to Alonso. But seriously, I liked the guy, a lot. Still think he was fantastic in 2005-06 and was extremelly happy he helped retire MS. Then Hamilton happened in his life and I don't think he'll ever recover. Still think if he hadn't become unhinged he would have been champion in 2007, but his sense of entitlement got in the way and the rest is history. This year he's just a shadow, still shows some flashes of his enourmous talent but you can feel he's not all there. So, if I'm too harsh judging him it's, in no small measure, because I was very disapointed with him.
Dunno about right, but that's certainly how cardin would have judged that little incident had it been Alonso.
Posted 02 September 2010 - 08:20
Posted 02 September 2010 - 08:45
Alonso won 2 'Michelin Championships' and ever since then over the next 3.5 seasons he's been between average and good, but never shown the sort of consistent brilliance that would suggest he will one day be regarded amongst the greats - as was the expectation earlier in his career. His star has definately fallen somewhat in recent times as has his reputation as a person.
Posted 02 September 2010 - 09:18
Alonso won 2 'Michelin Championships' and ever since then over the next 3.5 seasons he's been between average and good, but never shown the sort of consistent brilliance that would suggest he will one day be regarded amongst the greats - as was the expectation earlier in his career. His star has definately fallen somewhat in recent times as has his reputation as a person.
Posted 02 September 2010 - 09:37
As opposed to a 'double diffuser' championship or a 'flexible wing' one etc etc. It would be easy to play down pretty much any championship of recent years with that sort of statement. Alonso did a storming job in those years and it was far from plain sailing.Alonso won 2 'Michelin Championships'
Posted 02 September 2010 - 09:47
I agree that this year he is failing miserably to live up to the expectation we had for him. The team orders shenanigans has been a terrible blow to his reputation, but even last year he was still being regularly hailed in the paddock as the most complete driver on the grid, this despite Singapore '08.
Posted 02 September 2010 - 09:50
Earlier this year he gave an interview, and it was published here in the Autosport website, congratulating himself for having colaborated with the FIA on the Ferrari stolen info afair. What was the extent of his colaboration ? After getting imunity to testify he corfirmed he exchanged emails with Pedro taking advantage of this info. Information he know it was stolen. It was a pitty Mosley was only after Ron. Does that bother you a little ? There's a lot more than that but I guess that should be enough.
Posted 02 September 2010 - 09:53
Posted 02 September 2010 - 09:59
Posted 02 September 2010 - 10:01
It's a rough patch compared to 05 and 06. Similarly most of Hamilton's career has been a rough patch (mistake wise) if compared to his first 9 races in F1.
I think that kind of consistency in F1 is just utterly incredibly difficult to obtain. Kudos to Alonso for doing it for 2 full seasons. It's hardly a disaster when he's not repeating it.
Although he's made errors this year, I wouldn't say he's made significantly more than many others. Kubica (hailed as the most consistent this season) has had errors in each of the last 2 races that have cost him. Webber's Australian and Valencian GPs were disasterous. Hamilton's made some blunders in qualy (Oz and Malaysia) and in the race (Spa and Valencia).
I really think Alonso's only driven badly this season if you expect 05/06 driving as the minimum from him. I think he's been pretty decent this year. He's not been the best guy out there IMO but he's not that far off.
Posted 02 September 2010 - 10:01
Could not agree moreI think that's the problem though Gareth (the close but still too far away performance). The mistakes he has made this year have hit hard because the car has been capable of fighting for podiums most of the year (no, I appreciate not at all races but...). Tony Dodgins did an article earlier this year in which he added up all the 'lost' points. It was fanboyish and unbalanced, I agree, but he was making an important point that this was a driver and team whose points tally did not reflect what they were truly capable of.
It's a case you make for either Red Bull driver too if you like, but I think nobody expects this sort of inconsistency from Alonso, which is testament to our high expectations of him.
Posted 02 September 2010 - 11:02
2 'Michelin Championships' What a stupid post. Keep it up...
Posted 02 September 2010 - 11:18
Sorry but I think his Championship in 2005 with a Michelin - Renault colluded car, no 1 status ovrer Fisi and against a fast but fragile McLaren was possibly one of the easiest of Championships ever won. Fair enough he still one it, but the quality of it in terms of guaging Alonso's stock, surely has to be considered? Let's give him 2006 - fair play.
But anyway my point is that by the end of 2006 he was a double world champion and being lauded as the best of his generation and expected to go on to be a GREAT. We're talking Senna, Stewart, triple Championship plus territory here.
By all means dispute the value of his 2005 Championship, but can you honestly dispute that he is being regarded now, universally, as highly as he was in 2006? Or am I right, his stock HAS fallen? Its just an observation. I'm sure his biggest fans will say he is just as good - but I'm not asking what some people think, I'm asking what the overall view is.
Posted 02 September 2010 - 11:27
No.Oh and I think his stock now is much more than it was in 06, no?
Posted 02 September 2010 - 11:36
No.
For reasons already given.
Posted 02 September 2010 - 11:36
Posted 02 September 2010 - 11:37
No one ever agrees on top [X] lists of F1 drivers but 10 years after his career ends I reckon that if you were composing a top 10 (or even a top 5) F1 drivers ever and put Alonso in there no one (reasonable) would complain that you were being silly (even if they disagreed).But anyway my point is that by the end of 2006 he was a double world champion and being lauded as the best of his generation and expected to go on to be a GREAT. We're talking Senna, Stewart, triple Championship plus territory here.
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Posted 02 September 2010 - 11:45
It's a rough patch compared to 05 and 06. Similarly most of Hamilton's career has been a rough patch (mistake wise) if compared to his first 9 races in F1.
I think that kind of consistency in F1 is just utterly incredibly difficult to obtain. Kudos to Alonso for doing it for 2 full seasons. It's hardly a disaster when he's not repeating it.
Although he's made errors this year, I wouldn't say he's made significantly more than many others. Kubica (hailed as the most consistent this season) has had errors in each of the last 2 races that have cost him. Webber's Australian and Valencian GPs were disasterous. Hamilton's made some blunders in qualy (Oz and Malaysia) and in the race (Spa and Valencia).
I really think Alonso's only driven badly this season if you expect 05/06 driving as the minimum from him. I think he's been pretty decent this year. He's not been the best guy out there IMO but he's not that far off.
Posted 02 September 2010 - 11:52
I didn't say the same, I said not significantly more. There's also Canada for Kubica where his entry to the pits was an error. There are perhaps more, too. I'd have to spend a lot more time thinking about it. For Alonso a quick think gets me to about 5.Oh come do on really you think mistakes in two races is the same as a total that is almost a mistake in every other race so far this season?
Posted 02 September 2010 - 12:12
I didn't say the same, I said not significantly more. There's also Canada for Kubica where his entry to the pits was an error. There are perhaps more, too. I'd have to spend a lot more time thinking about it. For Alonso a quick think gets me to about 5.
So if 3 errors is the best of this season (Kubica) and Alonso's at 5 then I think Alonso isn't making significantly more errors than anyone else this season. Has he made more? Yes. Is he waaaay worse than the other contenders bar Vettel? IMO no.
Posted 02 September 2010 - 12:24
Posted 02 September 2010 - 12:28
No.
For reasons already given.
But I think most posters here (with one or two notable exceptions) will agree that Alonso has the ability to turn things around. It's up to him now to prove us right.
Posted 02 September 2010 - 12:34
It's no joke.Please tell you're kidding with this?
Posted 02 September 2010 - 12:40
The way he shades Massa in terms of laptimes is as brutal a slaughter ive ever seen.
Hes been robbed a few times, harsly and unjustly punished, and suffered from a pitwall wich remains clueless most of the time.
Posted 02 September 2010 - 12:50
The question is why is he doing this many mistakes ? I think it's a combination many of factors, none of them very easy to overcome.No.
For reasons already given.
But I think most posters here (with one or two notable exceptions) will agree that Alonso has the ability to turn things around. It's up to him now to prove us right.
Posted 02 September 2010 - 12:52
Let us not generalize. There are many Alonso fans out there (including this one) that believes Alonso is having a year full of .. for lack of a better term "stupid" mistakes. He has not yet lived up to my expectations of him coming in to this season.Never overstimate an Alonso fan. You can add another mistake to my tally.
Posted 02 September 2010 - 12:54
Oh come onThe way he shades Massa in terms of laptimes is as brutal a slaughter ive ever seen.
Posted 02 September 2010 - 13:06
Completely off the top of my head:
Hamilton: failure to get into Q3 in Australia; spin in Malaysia qualy; overtaking the SC in Valencia; off track excursion in Spa.
Button: failure to get into Q3 at Silverstone; same for Hungary; off track excursion at Shanghai; failure to get out of Q2 Malaysia.
Webber: Bahrain Q3; first collision with Hamilton in Australia; second collision with Hamilton in Australia; losing so many places at the start of Valencia; collision with Heikki in Valencia.
Vettel: collision in Turkey; start at GB; start at Germany; SC in Hungary; collision in Belgium.
Alonso: white line in Oz; jump start in China; FP3 in Monaco; failure to get into Q3 in Turkey; overtaking Kubica in GB; spinning out in Belgium.
Looking at that, I don't think Alonso is significantly worse on this score than the other WDC contenders.