14491 replies to this topic

[Gareth]

Its quite funny how you include every mistake which didnt even cost a single position for driver, like for example Valencia and Spa for Hamilton. You can make an endless list of mistakes for almost any driver in that way, but whats the point? Alonso has throw away much more points than anybody else by his mistakes this season, twisting things and nit picking every wheel spin from other drivers in cases where they didnt lose anything because their "mistake" isnt going to make Alonso look better.

Well, I'd see Hamilton's error in Valencia to be pretty much equivalent to Alonso's start in China in terms of how much of a brainfade the driver has to be for it to happen. The points consequences were very different, but I would say that is more down to circumstances than the drivers.

I think "nit picking" is an unfair description too. For example, Alonso's Turkey Q2 is included as an error for me as is Hamilton's Australia Q2. Webber's DNF through collision with Kova is included as is Alonso's DNF in Spa. The range of errors is pretty similar for each driver IMO, with the exception of Button.

[gaston_foix]

Well, I'd see Hamilton's error in Valencia to be pretty much equivalent to Alonso's start in China in terms of how much of a brainfade the driver has to be for it to happen. The points consequences were very different, but I would say that is more down to circumstances than the drivers.

I think "nit picking" is an unfair description too. For example, Alonso's Turkey Q2 is included as an error for me as is Hamilton's Australia Q2. Webber's DNF through collision with Kova is included as is Alonso's DNF in Spa. The range of errors is pretty similar for each driver IMO, with the exception of Button.

Yes but some were passing through their errors but Alonso couldn't. He has made a lot of mistakes. I hope he will cut them off for once...

Edited by gaston_foix, 02 September 2010 - 13:31.

[syph0nJZ05]

I think the problem with just compiling a list of driver mistakes is that you don't distinguish how severe they were or how many points each mistake cost. Now many drivers this season have lost points through errors or DNF's and all in all it's pretty balanced in my opinion. If anything you could say Hamilton has come out the worst as he has lost the most points due to no fault of his own, whereas all the others have lost lots of points due to crashing or making errors.

In terms of Alonso I think an issue arises when comparing the amount of errors he makes with his reputation. In 2006, 2007 and even some of the subsequent seasons he was generally regarded as the most complete driver on the grid. I think some people on here have raised some good points essentially questioning whether this label is still relevant now. In my opinion it's a valid proposition. The 2006 Alonso probably was the best driver on the grid. But surely we should start re-judging Alonso this season on his current performances in this as well as recent seasons, rather than basing it on his past form. I mean I doubt anybody classes Schumi now as at the same level he performed at in his prime. The point I propose now is do we still see Alonso as the class of the field? Because in my opinion there is more weight in judging Hamilton and maybe Kubica to be potentially even better.

[cardin]

Let us not generalize. There are many Alonso fans out there (including this one) that believes Alonso is having a year full of .. for lack of a better term "stupid" mistakes. He has not yet lived up to my expectations of him coming in to this season.

In the heat of an argument we tend to exagerate a little. I know there are Alonso fans that are critical of his performances so far this year.

[JackTorrance]

You haven't seen Hamilton vs. Kovalainen. Rosberg vs. Schumacher. Räikkönen vs. Badoer/Fisichella/Montoya. Alonso has been slightly faster than Massa that's all. Not even near slaughter. And that's with FA being the undisputed #1 driver at Ferrari + having been gifted a 50% of his wins this season. And on the ultimate drivers track being soundly thrashed by the #2 driver of Ferrari.



Unbelievable. FA is making mistake after mistake and Ferrari rewards him by ordering Massa to gift him victory.

Well, it seems to me gauging a driver from a forum member point of view is always very subjective. You dont wanna agree with me, fine. The numbers themselves dont lie. In all 39 free practise sessions this season Alonso has outpaced Massa 33 times. That is by far the biggest teammate crushing of the entire grid. And dont start about the serial rape of kovalainen by Mclaren. He got raped so bad he got criticised for bringing home points while the crashed out prodigal don Lewis got praised for crashing out at Monza. Gareth list of mistakes by drivers also omitioned the crash Lewis had fp1 hockenheim.
Really, Alonso has done well this season. Impressed a lot of people. He could do better, but a lot of the disapointing results werent all down to him. Im happy with his work.

Edited by JackTorrance, 02 September 2010 - 14:33.

[Buttoneer]

I think the problem with just compiling a list of driver mistakes is that you don't distinguish how severe they were or how many points each mistake cost.

I think that's irrelevant to the point being made.

Question; Has Alonso made more, less or about the same number of errors as his peers?

Once you've ascertained the answer, then you can talk about the points cost. The important issue (as far as this thread is concerned at least) is are we unfairly castigating Alonso for screwing up a real chance at the WDC or is a lot of it just happenstance?

[bonjon1979a]

I think that's irrelevant to the point being made.

Question; Has Alonso made more, less or about the same number of errors as his peers?

Once you've ascertained the answer, then you can talk about the points cost. The important issue (as far as this thread is concerned at least) is are we unfairly castigating Alonso for screwing up a real chance at the WDC or is a lot of it just happenstance?

A 'mistake' could be defined as locking a wheel on a qualifying lap, as could binning your car in final practice so you miss qualifying altogether. They're both mistakes, one is far more costly and serious than another. Alonso has made far more serious mistakes this year then he has in previous seasons. He's also made more serious errors than Hamilton and webber and it looks like it's costing him the WDC. So no, I don't think he's being unfairly castigated. Even the Spanish press have been critical of Alonso which must indicate that he's not having a great one this year.

[syph0nJZ05]

I think that's irrelevant to the point being made.

Well I think it is important to differentiate between separate errors. For example Vettel's error in Spa is not comparable to Hamilton's error there both in terms of severity and points lost.

Question; Has Alonso made more, less or about the same number of errors as his peers?

Once you've ascertained the answer, then you can talk about the points cost. The important issue (as far as this thread is concerned at least) is are we unfairly castigating Alonso for screwing up a real chance at the WDC or is a lot of it just happenstance?

Without compiling a really detailed analysis (which would be OTT anyway) I believe that both Vettel and Alonso could have won the WDC this year with their respective equipment (especially Vettel), yet both have limited themselves that opportunity primarily because of the combination of lack of form as well as multiple errors. So to answer your second question about happenstance, then I believe the answer is no.

[syph0nJZ05]

A 'mistake' could be defined as locking a wheel on a qualifying lap, as could binning your car in final practice so you miss qualifying altogether. They're both mistakes, one is far more costly and serious than another. Alonso has made far more serious mistakes this year then he has in previous seasons. He's also made more serious errors than Hamilton and webber and it looks like it's costing him the WDC. So no, I don't think he's being unfairly castigated. Even the Spanish press have been critical of Alonso which must indicate that he's not having a great one this year.

My sentiment exactly . Essentially comparing the quantity of errors is a little inconsequential as the severity holds more weight.

[Buttoneer]

My sentiment exactly . Essentially comparing the quantity of errors is a little inconsequential as the severity holds more weight.

Only in terms of the WDC. No, I'm not discounting the WDC as irrelevant I'm saying that if you want to take a look at the performance of a driver over the season you should look at how many errors they have made first, and then examine where they have had an effect. So the weighting comes afterwards.

[Ferrari2183]

I think that's irrelevant to the point being made.

Question; Has Alonso made more, less or about the same number of errors as his peers?

Once you've ascertained the answer, then you can talk about the points cost. The important issue (as far as this thread is concerned at least) is are we unfairly castigating Alonso for screwing up a real chance at the WDC or is a lot of it just happenstance?

He has made a fair amount of mistakes coupled with some heavy badluck. Now I am not saying he hasn't had good fortune because he has but here is list of how I see things.

By my count, Alonso has found himself at the back of the grid in 7 out of 13 races this season.

1. Australia: Driver mistake off the line subsequently hit by Button in a racing incident. Driver error coupled with bad luck.

2. Malaysia: Alonso and team missed the boat during qualifying in changeable conditions. They should of put in a banker. Stupidity.

3. China: Jumped start. Driver error.

4. Monaco: FP3 crash subsequently couldn't qualify. Driver error.

5. Valencia: Safety car. Bad luck.

6. Spa: Crash with Rubens. Bad luck.

7. Silverstone: Cutting the chicane while overtaking Kubica (Stupidity) and serving his drivethrough immediately after the safety car, sending him to the back.

How would you quantify these? In some of these the safety car has been his nemesis and his saviour. I find it very hard to quantify his mistakes.

[syph0nJZ05]

Alonso has done well this season. Impressed a lot of people.

Really? I tend to disagree. I feel more questions have been asked about his current form and ability rather than people praising his seasons performance.

He could do better, but a lot of the disapointing results werent all down to him. Im happy with his work.

It still stands that he isn't living up to his expectations and on top of that is making a lot of errors completely of his own doing. Thus the points that I brought up in this post still stand.

[Buttoneer]

Well if we're looking at driver errors a load of those go straight away;

1. Australia: Driver mistake off the line subsequently hit by Button in a racing incident. Driver error coupled with bad luck.

2. Malaysia: Alonso and team missed the boat during qualifying in changeable conditions. They should of put in a banker. Stupidity.

3. China: Jumped start. Driver error.

4. Monaco: FP3 crash subsequently couldn't qualify. Driver error.

5. Valencia: Safety car. Bad luck.

6. Spa: Crash with Rubens. Bad luck.

7. Silverstone: Cutting the chicane while overtaking Kubica (Stupidity) and serving his drivethrough immediately after the safety car, sending him to the back.

Not even sure about 7 which might be down to the team but lets leave it there. Not a long list, particularly, of driver errors so IMO while the team orders stuff has created issues with his reputation, as well as the complaints on the radio about Hamilton at Valencia, he's not really done too badly.

[bonjon1979a]

Well if we're looking at driver errors a load of those go straight away;

Not even sure about 7 which might be down to the team but lets leave it there. Not a long list, particularly, of driver errors so IMO while the team orders stuff has created issues with his reputation, as well as the complaints on the radio about Hamilton at Valencia, he's not really done too badly.

Was the crash in spa not a mistake?

EDIT: I also think he could've done better with the back markers in Canada.

Edited by bonjon1979a, 02 September 2010 - 15:42.

[rabbitleader]

Well, it seems to me gauging a driver from a forum member point of view is always very subjective. You dont wanna agree with me, fine. The numbers themselves dont lie. In all 39 free practise sessions this season Alonso has outpaced Massa 33 times. That is by far the biggest teammate crushing of the entire grid. And dont start about the serial rape of kovalainen by Mclaren. He got raped so bad he got criticised for bringing home points while the crashed out prodigal don Lewis got praised for crashing out at Monza. Gareth list of mistakes by drivers also omitioned the crash Lewis had fp1 hockenheim.
Really, Alonso has done well this season. Impressed a lot of people. He could do better, but a lot of the disapointing results werent all down to him. Im happy with his work.

I don't think Alonso has impressed anyone this season when you consider how much Ferrari paid for him. I am not a raikonnen fan but I think he would have done better.

One can quote qualifying stats all day long but where it counts, on race day, Alonso has made several rookie mistakes this season - quite error prone. Comparing Alonso to the other top 4 drivers in contention for the WDC, Alonso may have created the most out of all five and considerably more than Hamilton, his nemisis.

Edited by rabbitleader, 02 September 2010 - 15:41.

[Diablobb81]

Was the crash in spa not a mistake?

EDIT: I also think he could've done better with the back markers in Canada.

Or his place on the grid in Spa?

[bonjon1979a]

Or his place on the grid in Spa?

True. No one forced him to take the 'wet set up' that put him 10th.

[Buttoneer]

Was the crash in spa not a mistake?

Yeah sure, but Rubens' not Alonso's.

As far as his setup is concerned, we have zero idea whether it was governed by Alonso or recommended by the team but feel free to add it as it makes little difference. The errors are few in number.

[Ferrari2183]

True. No one forced him to take the 'wet set up' that put him 10th.

The wet setup is a myth. He got caught out by the conditions because he only had one set of new options left. He didn't use it on his 1st run and it started raining when he actually went out on the new set.

Edited by Ferrari2183, 02 September 2010 - 15:54.

[rabbitleader]

Yeah sure, but Rubens' not Alonso's.

As far as his setup is concerned, we have zero idea whether it was governed by Alonso or recommended by the team but feel free to add it as it makes little difference. The errors are few in number.

Didn't Alonso spin off late in the race?

[Clatter]

True. No one forced him to take the 'wet set up' that put him 10th.

Talking of wet, who gets the blame for coming in on the 1st lap to put wets on and then again 3 laps later because they were the wrong tyre?

[artista]

Yeah sure, but Rubens' not Alonso's.

Hmm, I thought Rubens was out of the race in the first lap

As far as his setup is concerned, we have zero idea whether it was governed by Alonso or recommended by the team but feel free to add it as it makes little difference. The errors are few in number.

Both, Serras and Villadelprat wrote on Monday in El Pais, that it had been Alonso who had chosen the set up. They are usually well informed.

Serras (1st question):
http://www.elpais.co...?encuentro=7058

Villadelprat (2nd paragraph):
http://www.elpais.co...lpepidep_18/Tes

[gaston_foix]

Talking of wet, who gets the blame for coming in on the 1st lap to put wets on and then again 3 laps later because they were the wrong tyre?

Is not what happened in China with almost all drivers? They were gamble but didn't payed off...

[gaston_foix]

Hmm, I thought Rubens was out of the race in the first lap




Both, Serras and Villadelprat wrote on Monday in El Pais, that it had been Alonso who had chosen the set up. They are usually well informed.

Serras (1st question):
http://www.elpais.co...?encuentro=7058

Villadelprat (2nd paragraph):
http://www.elpais.co...lpepidep_18/Tes

I know that and for me this was his biggest mistake at Spa...

[bonjon1979a]

Yeah sure, but Rubens' not Alonso's.

As far as his setup is concerned, we have zero idea whether it was governed by Alonso or recommended by the team but feel free to add it as it makes little difference. The errors are few in number.

I wouldn't call half a dozen mistakes 'few in number'. We've only had 13 GP's so far, that's 6 in 13 which is nearly half of all races. (admittedly, two of those mistakes occurred in the same race! so it's a bit unfair!)

1. Australia: Driver mistake off the line subsequently hit by Button in a racing incident. Driver error coupled with bad luck.

2 China jump start.

3. Monaco: FP3 crash subsequently couldn't qualify. Driver error.

4. Silverstone cutting the chicane (admittedly, this one is a fine line - but I remember a lot of people saying Hamilton's was a 'big mistake' when he cut the chicane in Magny Cours in 2008)

5. Chose the wrong set up in Spa (please, a driver sets his car up with his engineers and he opted for a 'wet setup' which put him down in 10th on the grid and so was more likely to get caught up in the type of accident he did)

6. Put the car into the wall in Spa.

This is not what we're used to from Alonso who has proved himself an incredibly consistent driver at other seasons. I used to think that he was the best driver on the grid but on this years showing doesn't support that any more. I'm sure he'll go on to prove me wrong and be faultless for the last 6 races and win the WDC. Kudos to him if he manages to pull it off but at the moment there is no doubt he is not performing like a 2XWDC.

Edited by bonjon1979a, 02 September 2010 - 16:12.

[Buttoneer]

Didn't Alonso spin off late in the race?

Yeah I'm a fool

Still, add it to the list and I'll still maintain there's not a lot of driver error in it.

[syph0nJZ05]

Only in terms of the WDC. No, I'm not discounting the WDC as irrelevant I'm saying that if you want to take a look at the performance of a driver over the season you should look at how many errors they have made first, and then examine where they have had an effect. So the weighting comes afterwards.

I completely understood what you meant first time around. But see it a different way. I think a driver that makes severe errors, that directly or indirectly impact the WDC, is more incompetent than a driver that makes less critical errors. For example I think it is unfair to compare losing pole and getting second as you may have lost the rear in the final corner with crashing into a competitor like Vettel on Sunday. So even though they are both errors, they shouldn't be grouped together. Essentially the quantity of errors a driver makes is a little fruitless as what is more important is what significant indiscretions are made. And usually these are the events that do have an influence on the WDC.

[Gareth]

Talking of wet, who gets the blame for coming in on the 1st lap to put wets on and then again 3 laps later because they were the wrong tyre?

Rubens for forcing Alonso into gamble mode; the team for making a bad call; Alonso for making a bad call; or a mixture of all 3.

[rabbitleader]

Yeah I'm a fool

Still, add it to the list and I'll still maintain there's not a lot of driver error in it.

I agree his race was already lost that day at Spa but Alonso has made some seriously large howlers this year which totally screwed up his race - Jumping lights, choosing not to give back position after the Kubica overtake and a few more!

Edited by rabbitleader, 02 September 2010 - 16:13.

[bonjon1979a]

Rubens for forcing Alonso into gamble mode; the team for making a bad call; Alonso for making a bad call; or a mixture of all 3.

TBH I can kind of understand that call. At the stage he'd been put to the back of the grid because of Rubens, the only way he was going to get back into the race is if everyone limped around on a wet track on slicks while he got the jump on them and put on some intermediates, I think it was the right call, even if ultimately it didn't come off.

[syph0nJZ05]

True. No one forced him to take the 'wet set up' that put him 10th.

I still hold doubt over how much the 'wet set-up' really cost him. I mean he didn't seem much better in the wet during the race, even losing it in wet. Seems a little bit like an excuse to me, especially considering that his S2 times weren't much better than his team mate or the McLarens which surely would have been a factor if he had been given more wing. On top of that his straight line speed wasn't hampered much. So if you want to compile a list of 'errors' then his Spa qualy may well slot in there.

[Kovalonso]

Was the crash in spa not a mistake?

I think that's debatable... [this is a forum, right ?]

Jean Todt would say it was Alonso's mistake, bcs he should qualify further ahead.

When Felipe made a poor Q session in Australia and started around 10th and crashed in the first lap, Massa started to blame other drivers for being sandwiched. Then Todt said, "shut it, you should qualify ahead to avoid such risks, it was you fault".

The Monday race starts on Saturday qualifying, you know.

[syph0nJZ05]

Yeah sure, but Rubens' not Alonso's.

As far as his setup is concerned, we have zero idea whether it was governed by Alonso or recommended by the team but feel free to add it as it makes little difference. The errors are few in number.

I think there is a little ambiguity here. The crash at the start was Rubens' mistake. But the crash that ended Alonso's race was definitely his error. An error which likely cost him points.

[bonjon1979a]

I think that's debatable... [this is a forum, right ?]

Jean Todt would say it was Alonso's mistake, bcs he should qualify further ahead.

When Felipe made a poor Q session in Australia and started around 10th and crashed in the first lap, Massa started to blame other drivers for being sandwiched. Then Todt said, "shut it, you should qualify ahead to avoid such risks, it was you fault".

The Monday race starts on Saturday qualifying, you know.

Yep, debates are good. I was referring to the crash where Alonso went wide, spun it and stuck it into the wall.

[Ferrari2183]

I still hold doubt over how much the 'wet set-up' really cost him. I mean he didn't seem much better in the wet during the race, even losing it in wet. Seems a little bit like an excuse to me, especially considering that his S2 times weren't much better than his team mate or the McLarens which surely would have been a factor if he had been given more wing. On top of that his straight line speed wasn't hampered much. So if you want to compile a list of 'errors' then his Spa qualy may well slot in there.

He didn't have a wet setup. He said in his blog the rain destroyed his strategy. I'm more inclined to believe him than some article written after quali by Alonso apologists. He got caught out by the rain in quali based on the fact that he only had one set of new options left and chose to use it at the end and not his first run, which wasn't a perfect lap either.

[Buttoneer]

I agree his race was already lost that day at Spa but Alonso has made some seriously large howlers this year which totally screwed up his race - Jumping lights, choosing not to give back position after the Kubica overtake and a few more!

Indeed, the whole weekends drama stemmed from a couple of problems - the poor setup for qualifying and then the Rubens crash, neither of which were entirely his fault. Maybe he would still have spun off (albeit from a higher position) had Rubens not hit him but maybe not.

[bonjon1979a]

He didn't have a wet setup. He said in his blog the rain destroyed his strategy. I'm more inclined to believe him than some article written after quali by Alonso apologists. He got caught out by the rain in quali based on the fact that he only had one set of new options left and chose to use it at the end and not his first run, which wasn't a perfect lap either.

That's not what he said in his blog, he said this:

'I could have done without going off the track, but it did not make a great difference: the rain meant that any chance I had of making up some places through our strategy evaporated.'

At this stage, the two mercedes and maybe a couple of other cars in front of him still had to pit because they'd only used one set of tyres. When the rain came everyone had to pit again to go on to the intermediates. So his strategy was nullified.

If he wasn't on a wet set up (which it was widely reported he was) then he must've made a mistake in qualifying to put him down in tenth. He has proved to be quicker than Massa this year and he was a lot further up the grid (especially when you count the extra 2 metres! )

Edited by bonjon1979a, 02 September 2010 - 16:28.

[Smile17]

Considering all his mistakes, he should have been out of the WDC fight a long time ago..

Edited by Smile17, 02 September 2010 - 16:28.

[syph0nJZ05]

He didn't have a wet setup. He said in his blog the rain destroyed his strategy. I'm more inclined to believe him than some article written after quali by Alonso apologists. He got caught out by the rain in quali based on the fact that he only had one set of new options left and chose to use it at the end and not his first run, which wasn't a perfect lap either.

Ahh makes sense, I haven't read his blog so missed that.

[JackTorrance]

Really? I tend to disagree. I feel more questions have been asked about his current form and ability rather than people praising his seasons performance.


It still stands that he isn't living up to his expectations and on top of that is making a lot of errors completely of his own doing. Thus the points that I brought up in this post still stand.

He doesnt live up to his expectations or yours? As far as mine are concerned, im totally satisfied. Some of the Fia decisions have totally gone against him wich could easely have fallen differently. A reprimand for silverstone, a warning at malaysia combined with more heavier penalties to other drivers and we be likely to have looked to a significantly different picture in the pointstable.

I hate typing on phone displays.

[rabbitleader]

He doesnt live up to his expectations or yours? As far as mine are concerned, im totally satisfied. Some of the Fia decisions have totally gone against him wich could easely have fallen differently. A reprimand for silverstone, a warning at malaysia combined with more heavier penalties to other drivers and we be likely to have looked to a significantly different picture in the pointstable.

I hate typing on phone displays.

Too many if's in your statement. That could be said about all the drivers in the top 5 or 6 WDC rankings.

For many, Alonso has made too many rookie mistakes this year and more than the other drivers in the top 5 seeking to win the WDC.

If you are cool about Alonso making so many mistakes so be it!

[Watkins74]

No.

For reasons already given.

But I think most posters here (with one or two notable exceptions) will agree that Alonso has the ability to turn things around. It's up to him now to prove us right.

Good take on the situation. I do think he needs to turn it around quickly though.

[jesee]

Alonso has made so many rookie mistakes he is starting to look like Piquet.

[Flamini]

Alonso has made so many rookie mistakes he is starting to look like Piquet.

Piquet was slower than his teammate. Slow and erratic.
Alonso is at least faster than teammate. So fast and erratic.

Really look like Piquet?

[Buttoneer]

Alonso has made so many rookie mistakes he is starting to look like Piquet.

So you think Alonso crashed out to try and get Massa the win? Because your argument isn't perhaps as well thought out, researched and communicated as you might think it is.

[Atreiu]

Maybe he meant 1986?

[as65p]

Maybe he meant 1986?

I just had a little chuckle, thinking of Massa featuring as Mansell in that picture .

[Kovalonso]

"Can't buy my love".

Alonso managed to get the seat he wanted and radio control the other one.

I wanna see the reaction of the crowd if Alosno performs badly, a former #1 enemy trying to conquer the hearts of the tifosi.
Fred promissed and promissed but it's not delivering.

IMO, Lewis despite being the current #1 rival [McLaren Rider] is much more appreciated by the italians due to his agressive driving and car control.

[F.M.]

Haug after Alonso crashing out

http://www.formula1....race_edits.html

[AlanWake]

A very young Fernando Alonso in the European Karting Championship in Belgium at the age of 16. He has the number "82" on his kart

1st race: --> Nobody can catch him!!!

2nd race: --> Look at the minute 3:05, he seemed to be crying

What a great videos!