14491 replies to this topic

[bsoares]

no, he was coned into it per De la Rosa, and had the guts to leave this milieu, although this milieu was about to win the WDC 2008.
Great character

Simply brilliant!!

[YellowHelmet]

Simply brilliant!!

what else?

[puxanando]

Camara lenta - Alonso in F2012

[katmen]

watching alonso in struggling car is much more fun....

[garoidb]

Alonso was at the forefront of it...you know he could have said 'stop this is wrong' but he didn't, he shares the equal blame along with the rest of the people involved and if you can't grasp that then there's something a miss with the stars tonight!

no, he was coned into it per De la Rosa, and had the guts to leave this milieu, although this milieu was about to win the WDC 2008.
Great character

Pedro de la Rosa has just been made Chairman of the GPDA, having continued to work at McLaren for years after spygate (despite not being a "must have" driver). Fernando Alonso has been made team leader at Ferrari, the wronged team. This is not taken as seriously by the F1 drivers and teams as by some on these boards.

Edit: Also, Mike Coughlan is technical director (or equivalent) at Williams. My own suspicion is that the espionage is all standard practice in F1 (since they all seem so relaxed about it), but Mosely used the opportunity to pursue an agenda against McLaren/Dennis.

Edited by garoidb, 06 March 2012 - 19:52.

[Tifosi4ever]

Pedro de la Rosa has just been made Chairman of the GPDA, having continued to work at McLaren for years after spygate (despite not being a "must have" driver). Fernando Alonso has been made team leader at Ferrari, the wronged team. This is not taken as seriously by the F1 drivers and teams as by some on these boards.

Edit: Also, Mike Coughlan is technical director (or equivalent) at Williams. My own suspicion is that the espionage is all standard practice in F1 (since they all seem so relaxed about it), but Mosely used the opportunity to pursue an agenda against McLaren/Dennis.

Espionage is standard practice in every sector. It all comes down to the basic idea that everything is ok unless you get caught. When you do get caught, however, you are effed. The Mobile phone sector is a classic example. My Father worked for a very well known mobile phone company in a team dedicated to reverse engineer rivals phones. I have also visited the HQ of Ericsson many years ago, and the security entering every room was like CIA HQ. Working in the banking sector, I also know that when you join another firm, you take your client list with you. Strictly speaking, this is wrong, but everyone does it. (Apart from me, it has to be said, I am only talking about colleagues ).

Espionage, insider trading, bribery, et al are all illegal, but all take place on a regular occasion within every sector. Whilst I choose to not do this because I am a coward who is scared of being caught, a large percentage of people in all sectors do have the balls to break the law in a way that is highly unlikely to ever be noticed.

As an example, I technically have the ability to make a back office payment to a bank account in the Cayman's that I own from the bank that I work for, for billions of dollars. I have the ability as I can both approve payments, and approve people the ability to make payments. So, theoretically, I could create a user who could make payments, make the payment from them, then approve the payment. I could then be on the next flight to the Caymens.

I wouldn't, because I would probably get caught and sent to jail, and I don't wan't to go to jail, but that is the only reason. If the chances of getting caught are low, the chances of people doing it is high.

[garoidb]

Espionage is standard practice in every sector. It all comes down to the basic idea that everything is ok unless you get caught. When you do get caught, however, you are effed. The Mobile phone sector is a classic example. My Father worked for a very well known mobile phone company in a team dedicated to reverse engineer rivals phones. I have also visited the HQ of Ericsson many years ago, and the security entering every room was like CIA HQ. Working in the banking sector, I also know that when you join another firm, you take your client list with you. Strictly speaking, this is wrong, but everyone does it. (Apart from me, it has to be said, I am only talking about colleagues ).

Espionage, insider trading, bribery, et al are all illegal, but all take place on a regular occasion within every sector. Whilst I choose to not do this because I am a coward who is scared of being caught, a large percentage of people in all sectors do have the balls to break the law in a way that is highly unlikely to ever be noticed.

As an example, I technically have the ability to make a back office payment to a bank account in the Cayman's that I own from the bank that I work for, for billions of dollars. I have the ability as I can both approve payments, and approve people the ability to make payments. So, theoretically, I could create a user who could make payments, make the payment from them, then approve the payment. I could then be on the next flight to the Caymens.

I wouldn't, because I would probably get caught and sent to jail, and I don't wan't to go to jail, but that is the only reason. If the chances of getting caught are low, the chances of people doing it is high.

I am making no moral judgement one way or the other, but it seems to me that if this episode was really frowned upon to the extent claimed at the time, the individuals involved simply would not be in demand. And they are. No-one really cares.

The only guy who is really gone is Stepney, and he was actually leaking his own teams data. It is understandable that this would not be forgiven.

[Tifosi4ever]

I am making no moral judgement one way or the other, but it seems to me that if this episode was really frowned upon to the extent claimed at the time, the individuals involved simply would not be in demand. And they are. No-one really cares.

The only guy who is really gone is Stepney, and he was actually leaking his own teams data. It is understandable that this would not be forgiven.

Now here comes the point of "It is only bad if you get caught". Stepney was working with Caughlen to gain data to take to Honda to get a job. If they weren't caught with their pants down, Honda would have had no problem in hiring them, knowing that they were stealing data. Honda may deny this, but if I were a hiring manager at Honda, I would welcome the data from Ferrari/McLaren. If they were caught, however, I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole.

Let's put it this way, if you work for Apple and somebody from Samsung comes to you wanting a job with valuable data taken from Samsung, would you hire him? The politically correct answer is no, but in the real world, you want the data. If, however, Apple know they are doing this, and can prove it, obviously you wouldn't hire him.

It is only wrong when you get caught.

[garoidb]

Now here comes the point of "It is only bad if you get caught". Stepney was working with Caughlen to gain data to take to Honda to get a job. If they weren't caught with their pants down, Honda would have had no problem in hiring them, knowing that they were stealing data. Honda may deny this, but if I were a hiring manager at Honda, I would welcome the data from Ferrari/McLaren. If they were caught, however, I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole.

Let's put it this way, if you work for Apple and somebody from Samsung comes to you wanting a job with valuable data taken from Samsung, would you hire him? The politically correct answer is no, but in the real world, you want the data. If, however, Apple know they are doing this, and can prove it, obviously you wouldn't hire him.

It is only wrong when you get caught.

That's right, they could have ended up at Honda and been part of the Brawn GP adventure, hugely enhancing their reputations and wealth. How many times has this happened without a whisper, I wonder? But I agree with you completely, and I don't think there is much innocence in Formula 1.

[metz]

Recently the key composite guy leaves RBR and shows up at Lotus.
Hey, this year's Lotus is now 40KG lighter before balast.
This stuff happens all the time. It's the business of F1.
Not worth going to court for.

[speng]

no, he was coned into it per De la Rosa, and had the guts to leave this milieu, although this milieu was about to win the WDC 2008.
Great character

[HPT]

Are you suggesting that Prost is gay?

I laughed out loud! Hahaha thanks for that!

[Oho]

Recently the key composite guy leaves RBR and shows up at Lotus.
Hey, this year's Lotus is now 40KG lighter before balast.
This stuff happens all the time. It's the business of F1.
Not worth going to court for.

Well the 40kg figure sounds too good to be true. Anyway European labor laws are very strict on restrictions of trade thus as long as the guy only took what he had in his head, and I don't mean a USB flash hidden in his mouth, worth or not there is nothing RBR could do about it in courts. Then again Renault essentially got off scott free of essentially the same deed, proven beyond reasonable doubt, McLaren paid 100 million for.

Edited by Oho, 07 March 2012 - 06:39.

[bourbon]

new single-seater has some characteristics, which are difficult to understand and maybe we’re not where we want to be yet

How the heck do you create parts with characteristics which are difficult to understand? Did they steal them and are now stuck figuring them out? Did the dude who built them quit? Is the whole so much greater than the parts it has them completely confounded?

[TheBunk]

I wonder how long Alonso will tolerate Domenicalis incapacity to lead a big F1 team, and just offer his services to another team, even if that will lead to a pay cut. Im sure that 90 million dollar he now made at Ferrari sis more than enough for the rest of his life.

[teejay]

Now here comes the point of "It is only bad if you get caught". Stepney was working with Caughlen to gain data to take to Honda to get a job. If they weren't caught with their pants down, Honda would have had no problem in hiring them, knowing that they were stealing data. Honda may deny this, but if I were a hiring manager at Honda, I would welcome the data from Ferrari/McLaren. If they were caught, however, I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole.

Let's put it this way, if you work for Apple and somebody from Samsung comes to you wanting a job with valuable data taken from Samsung, would you hire him? The politically correct answer is no, but in the real world, you want the data. If, however, Apple know they are doing this, and can prove it, obviously you wouldn't hire him.

It is only wrong when you get caught.

They did go to Honda for a job, who said no.

Honda still remembered being done for cheating in the BAR days and thus didnt want to take the risk as a team.

Had that not happened I reckon they would have grabbed them up.

[Tifosi4ever]

They did go to Honda for a job, who said no.

Honda still remembered being done for cheating in the BAR days and thus didnt want to take the risk as a team.

Had that not happened I reckon they would have grabbed them up.

Honda only said no when they were caught.

[teejay]

They had approached Honda before either were caught.

[YellowHelmet]

1. there is an own thread for this topic, so dont spam this thread with that nonsense.
2. Mad Max was and is just as much a stranger to this as everyone else. he was not personally involved. he was just influenced from a particular storyline, which hasnt to be true! + in this there is just the suggestion that alonso was coned into it by de la Rosa, because he didnt ask for the email, he was given the email and answered to it.

Edited by YellowHelmet, 07 March 2012 - 08:14.

[YellowHelmet]

I wonder how long Alonso will tolerate Domenicalis incapacity to lead a big F1 team, and just offer his services to another team, even if that will lead to a pay cut. Im sure that 90 million dollar he now made at Ferrari sis more than enough for the rest of his life.

Not a very good thought.

Domenicali is the right guy, just give Domenicali the time to find in this aerodynamic-oriented F1 the right guy who can match Newey.

Edited by YellowHelmet, 07 March 2012 - 08:18.

[TheBunk]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...o_the_poin.html

Andrew Benson questions whether Alonso sometimes feels regrets he didnt sign for Red Bull in 2008.

[Showty]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...o_the_poin.html

Andrew Benson questions whether Alonso sometimes feels regrets he didnt sign for Red Bull in 2008.

I bet he doesn´t even think about it anymore, he doesn´t look like that kind of person.

He was asked once about it in a radio interview, and he said at the moment he took what he considered the right decision knowing what he knew back them.

He could have joined Honda as well, then turned into Brawn, now turned into Mercedes, he was a couple of times at the factory with Ross Brawn.

[kosmos]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...o_the_poin.html

Andrew Benson questions whether Alonso sometimes feels regrets he didnt sign for Red Bull in 2008.

hindsight is great.

[kosmos]

Alonso new tattoo?.

https://yfrog.com/Hi...a...0&ysize=480

[puxanando]

Alonso new tattoo?.

https://yfrog.com/Hi...a...0&ysize=480

YES!

[F1Newbie]

YES!

But what is it? It doesn't look real to me

[MaranelloSnowStorm]

Alonso new tattoo?.

https://yfrog.com/Hi...a...0&ysize=480

[sheSgoTthElooK]

Alonso new tattoo?.

https://yfrog.com/Hi...a...0&ysize=480

what's that...a backbone tattoo? adapting kimi, huh? first the hap, now the tattoo...hasn´t worked yet, right?
at least they have a conversational topic now as I believe they`ll meet often this season

btw when did kimi made his second tattoo? the first one 07 - and no.2?

[hello86]

what's that...a backbone tattoo? adapting kimi, huh? first the hap, now the tattoo...hasn´t worked yet, right?
at least they have a conversational topic now as I believe they`ll meet often this season

btw when did kimi made his second tattoo? the first one 07 - and no.2?

End of 2007

[MaranelloSnowStorm]

what's that...a backbone tattoo? adapting kimi, huh? first the hap, now the tattoo...hasn´t worked yet, right?
at least they have a conversational topic now as I believe they`ll meet often this season

btw when did kimi made his second tattoo? the first one 07 - and no.2?

Fernando has his own style.

[mursuka80]

Fernando has his own style.

Of course he has. People are just joking.

[Smile17]

Alonso new tattoo?.

https://yfrog.com/Hi...a...0&ysize=480

Maybe it's interesting to note that this is just 20% of the whole tattoo (according to Raquel). My first reaction is that it isn't pretty, I hope it looks better in total...

[prty]

I've seen in another forum that according to Raquel del Rosario twitter, that's 20% of the tatoo. To be honest it looks preety horrendous

[ForzaGTR]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...o_the_poin.html

Andrew Benson questions whether Alonso sometimes feels regrets he didnt sign for Red Bull in 2008.

That would have ended up being 2007 all over again. No way would Alonso want a top driver like Vettel in his team. I'm not saying Vettel is better, just that I doubt Alonso can cope with competitive team mates. After 2007 a lot of teams will think twice about who they pair Alonso with. Massa is the perfect No.2 for Alonso, no way will Massa ever beat Alonso in the same car so it's easy for Alonso to assert his authority.

Ferrari will come good soon and Alonso will grab that 3rd WDC and elite status. He is perfect for Ferrari. All he needs is a better car than he has had so far.

[garoidb]

Massa is the perfect No.2 for Alonso, no way will Massa ever beat Alonso in the same car so it's easy for Alonso to assert his authority.

And yet, Massa was considered a top driver before being paired with Alonso. Ferrari did not deliberately appoint a slower team-mate to help Fernando.

You might also remember that for the first half of 2010 Massa was often in Alonso's way and they were often quite aggressive with each other. Alonso had to be quite brutal with him at times.

[puxanando]

Ferrari will come good soon and Alonso will grab that 3rd WDC and elite status. He is perfect for Ferrari. All he needs is a better car than he has had so far.

Nothing else toadd! Say it all!

[Fontainebleau]

That would have ended up being 2007 all over again. No way would Alonso want a top driver like Vettel in his team. I'm not saying Vettel is better, just that I doubt Alonso can cope with competitive team mates. After 2007 a lot of teams will think twice about who they pair Alonso with. Massa is the perfect No.2 for Alonso, no way will Massa ever beat Alonso in the same car so it's easy for Alonso to assert his authority.

Ferrari will come good soon and Alonso will grab that 3rd WDC and elite status. He is perfect for Ferrari. All he needs is a better car than he has had so far.

That is the mantra that certain British press has been repeating endlessly to make sure that everybody blames Alonso for everything that happened in 2007.

And for the record, after 2007 a lot of teams have thought twice about whether they would want Hamilton or not, too. He did not cover himself in glory in that year either.

[jrg19]

Looks like a blade of some sort, with blood on it?

* the tattoo that is.

Edited by jrg19, 08 March 2012 - 22:12.

[Skinnyguy]

That would have ended up being 2007 all over again. No way would Alonso want a top driver like Vettel in his team. I'm not saying Vettel is better, just that I doubt Alonso can cope with competitive team mates. After 2007 a lot of teams will think twice about who they pair Alonso with.

Alonso has grown up since 2007. If Vettel beated him, he would stay quiet and let life go on. Even Hamilton could do it this year. I´m sure today´s Alonso can too.

Massa is the perfect No.2 for Alonso, no way will Massa ever beat Alonso in the same car so it's easy for Alonso to assert his authority.

You never know. Massa might get back to his previous shape. He would be a tough rival.

[ForzaGTR]

That is the mantra that certain British press has been repeating endlessly to make sure that everybody blames Alonso for everything that happened in 2007.

And for the record, after 2007 a lot of teams have thought twice about whether they would want Hamilton or not, too. He did not cover himself in glory in that year either.

Hamilton coped with Button just fine. At no point has their relationship appeared to suffer despite Button trouncing him last year. For the record I think Alonso is currently the most complete driver on the grid, but I also think he is at his best when he has clear No.1 status or else he is likely to throw his toys out of the pram. It is clear also grassed his team up and threw away 2 opportunities to win a WDC. Alonso should have been WDC in 2007 but he let a rookie get to him, albeit a very good rookie.

Like I said, everything is perfect for Alonso at Ferrari, apart from the car. Once that gets sorted I expect a lot of race wins and probably a couple championships.

[as65p]

Hamilton coped with Button just fine. At no point has their relationship appeared to suffer despite Button trouncing him last year. For the record I think Alonso is currently the most complete driver on the grid, but I also think he is at his best when he has clear No.1 status or else he is likely to throw his toys out of the pram. It is clear also grassed his team up and threw away 2 opportunities to win a WDC. Alonso should have been WDC in 2007 but he let a rookie get to him, albeit a very good rookie.

Like I said, everything is perfect for Alonso at Ferrari, apart from the car. Once that gets sorted I expect a lot of race wins and probably a couple championships.

If you step back from the fanboy view for a second, what's left is:

- Alonso having serious teammate related troubles once in his career
- Hamilton having serious teammate related troubles once in his career

- in all other seasons, both drivers didn't have any teammate trouble worth mentioning (which obviously in Alonsos case is quite a larger sample)

which should at least make one think about 2007 not being so much about the drivers personalities, but about other surrounding circumstances.

[ashnathan]

If you step back from the fanboy view for a second, what's left is:

- Alonso having serious teammate related troubles once in his career
- Hamilton having serious teammate related troubles once in his career

- in all other seasons, both drivers didn't have any teammate trouble worth mentioning (which obviously in Alonsos case is quite a larger sample)

which should at least make one think about 2007 not being so much about the drivers personalities, but about other surrounding circumstances.

Jarno Trulli in 2004? I believe he won the Monaco Grand Prix did he not? lol.

[garoidb]

Jarno Trulli in 2004? I believe he won the Monaco Grand Prix did he not? lol.

Yes, and very convincingly. It did not cause problems for Alonso though.

[CF22]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...o_the_poin.html

Andrew Benson questions whether Alonso sometimes feels regrets he didnt sign for Red Bull in 2008.

I know originally Fernando wasn't a Ferrari guy, but after 2 world championships the next step for most drivers is driving for Ferrari and being their number one, in my opinion that's the ultimate reward for an F1 driver.

[Desdirodeabike]

Lol. I'm loving the incredible lengths some people in here go to just to marginalize and justify Alonsos involvement. Unbelievable.

1. there is an own thread for this topic, so dont spam this thread with that nonsense.
2. Mad Max was and is just as much a stranger to this as everyone else. he was not personally involved. he was just influenced from a particular storyline, which hasnt to be true! + in this there is just the suggestion that alonso was coned into it by de la Rosa, because he didnt ask for the email, he was given the email and answered to it.

Dear God in heaven. Fiction can be fun!
Hardly anyone was more involved than Mosley. Not many people knew more about every specific detail in the saga. And yes, also Alonsos involvement. I'm amazed by the blinders some Alonso fanboys have on. Why cant they just accept the fact that he was caught cheating by using data? No one forced him. And he only fessed up to avoid being thrown out of the championship. But maybe denial of hard facts hurts less for a typical Nanboy.

Alonso new tattoo?.

https://yfrog.com/Hi...a...0&ysize=480

Looks absolutely horrid to be honest.

Edited by Desdirodeabike, 09 March 2012 - 00:47.

[garoidb]

If you step back from the fanboy view for a second, what's left is:

- Alonso having serious teammate related troubles once in his career
- Hamilton having serious teammate related troubles once in his career

- in all other seasons, both drivers didn't have any teammate trouble worth mentioning (which obviously in Alonsos case is quite a larger sample)

which should at least make one think about 2007 not being so much about the drivers personalities, but about other surrounding circumstances.

Yes, the "one bad season" line employed in defence of Lewis for 2011 does throw up this question. If one driver is allowed an off season (or part-season), then maybe others are as well.

[DrivenF1]

Alonso got very annoyed at Fisichella a few times when he was leading the race, he asked to be given the lead of the race. Then there's Hockenheim with Massa with repeated 'I'm faster than Felipe' messages.

Alonso isn't the only one who does this but he's had more issues than Hamilton has with teammates (maybe because of the greater sample).

[ashnathan]

Yes, and very convincingly. It did not cause problems for Alonso though.

He beat Alonso in the same car, and in the season standings overall...? and it obviously did, cos Trulli was sacked, now why would a driver that is leading points for his team and beating his teammate be sacked mid season? Strange, is it a coincidence that the guy who sacked him was his teammates manager?

[garoidb]

Alonso got very annoyed at Fisichella a few times when he was leading the race, he asked to be given the lead of the race. Then there's Hockenheim with Massa with repeated 'I'm faster than Felipe' messages.

Alonso isn't the only one who does this but he's had more issues than Hamilton has with teammates (maybe because of the greater sample).

But fewer issues with Massa!

[garoidb]

He beat Alonso in the same car, and in the season standings overall...? and it obviously did, cos Trulli was sacked, now why would a driver that is leading points for his team and beating his teammate be sacked mid season? Strange, is it a coincidence that the guy who sacked him was his teammates manager?

Trulli was good, certainly better than Fisichella. What is your point? Do you think Trulli would have delivered the 05 and 06 world championships?