56 replies to this topic

[mel]

Dear All,

The hosts of the Racing Comments forum would like input from members of all forums regarding threads dedicated to specific drivers or teams.

In RC, these threads started with the Lewis Hamilton thread which was a discussion about a new up-and-coming driver who ought to make it into F1. Over a period of years the title of the thread has been taken as a banner to discuss any and all aspects in which Lewis is involved.

More recently, threads like these have been looked upon by some as a 'fan appreciation' thread where dissenting opinions should not be given voice and by others as places to go to troll. It is this environment where the labels 'fanboy' and 'hater' or 'anti' become ingrained. We would like to stop this happening, and would like your views on how to do that.

Please discuss and make suggestions. I will take your suggestions back to the RC mods and I promise to report on any changes in policy or house rules we make as a result.

Thank you.

P.S This is not an opportunity to insult each other or the RC mods.

[D.M.N.]

I do think we might need subforums possibly... maybe one for 'Team Battles' for instance, at the moment on the first page I see the following threads:

- http://forums.autosp...howtopic=123477
- http://forums.autosp...howtopic=119928
- http://forums.autosp...howtopic=120916
- http://forums.autosp...howtopic=118716
- http://forums.autosp...howtopic=127462

Some of which are clogging up the board and could be put in a subforum.

The other option is just to merge these with the team thread (i.e. Vettel v Weber with the Red Bull thread etc)

I don't get why we need threads dedicated to certain drivers' though... unless we are going to have an 'Appreciation Forum' which would best serve these threads.

I'm not sure whether subforums would work though as it may just kill conversation entirely. I do agree though that something needs to be done though.

I also think that after a particular weekend has finished, threads such as this should be moved to a subforum and closed for archive purposes.

Edited by D.M.N., 06 April 2010 - 15:16.

[Gilles4Ever]

For me sub forums is the wrong way to go, one of my concerns is the segmentation that is happening in the forum with the driver and team "mega-threads". They are like club houses or neighbourhoods which is what I don't think the forum is about, so merging is probably not a way to go either.

I would like to see all qualifying discussion in a XXX GP qualifying thread. Not some in the relevant qually thread, some in each of the team threads and then again some in the team threads and even more in the driver vs driver threads.

Without subforums crap threads die and decent threads or hot topics survive until something hotter comes along.

[Ruud de la Rosa]

Dear All,
More recently, threads like these have been looked upon by some as a 'fan appreciation' thread where dissenting opinions should not be given voice and by others as places to go to troll. It is this environment where the labels 'fanboy' and 'hater' or 'anti' become ingrained. We would like to stop this happening, and would like your views on how to do that.

I stopped visiting the driver discussion treads because of this. Even most post race treads are consumed by this. I find myself waiting a couple of days after the race to wait for the fanboyism to die out. The same is happening in the car treads, especially during the pre season, it seems only pro-teamX opinions are allowed.
I'm afraid there isn't a solution for this; the forum is becoming to large, and this still is the internet.

Edited by Ruud de la Rosa, 06 April 2010 - 19:35.

[pacificquay]

The biggest problem on this forum is the fact that starting a new thread is seen as a cardinal sin.

I would prefer to see individual threads for individual incidents/points of discussion.

Then they simply drop away or stay up depending on the level of interest.

Threads should only be merged if they are about the same point.

I don't like the practice of every bit of news about a driver being shoehorned into the same thread.

[mdecarle]

I think I would like subforums. I now regularly do not read a thread because there's hundreds of posts, and I just don't have time/patience to read all of them. With subforums, I think we might have more threads with more specific issues. maybe?

Actually, I wish people would post less...

[Gareth]

The biggest problem on this forum is the fact that starting a new thread is seen as a cardinal sin.

I'd be interested to know what gives you that impression? I don't think there's an intention for it to be seen that way - and if the impression given is "thou shalt not start new threads" somethings gone wrong somewhere - on the contrary I'm actually quite in favour of everything you mention below:

I would prefer to see individual threads for individual incidents/points of discussion.

Then they simply drop away or stay up depending on the level of interest.

Threads should only be merged if they are about the same point.

I don't like the practice of every bit of news about a driver being shoehorned into the same thread.

[maverick69]

Perhaps develop a definitive "yes/no" critera for "Trolling" and a similar criteria for "Fanboyism"? Maybe that's a better solution that a slightly subjective list of rules?

That way the debate between fans and critics won't be stifled - no matter what the thread.

The other, slightly more drastic action is to ban all driver/team bashing. I remember that worked very well on the Delphi F1 forum years ago. Might put some people off though.

Just my thoughts

Edited by HarryReams, 08 April 2010 - 13:57.

[undersquare]

I don't think the problem is the threads. They are a symptom. For example the thread about Hamilton weaving was 4-5 times as long as the race discussion thread, and it seemed just as full of trolling/defending as the dedicated Lewis Hamilton thread.

And one of the rationales for keeping the diver threads, as I recall, was to syphon off some of the trolling from the other threads.

My suggestion would be to manage it by managing the membership, not just for the Hamilton bashers but for anyone who comes to campaign instead of to share their enjoyment of F1. Sustained campaigning or negative posting should be against the rules. Maybe sustained mindless fanboyism as well.

[RoutariEnjinu]

I think the mega threads are bad.

I can't keep up with them. I'd sooner see a fresh topic discussing a new component of a car.

On the topic of Lewis Hamilton, it would be nice to have a thread about something very specific about him, without it becoming a catch-all thread that descends in to "why I don't like him as a person", and to be fair, "why I like him as a person".

I've found it impossible to discuss this driver as a racing nerd.

If a post is made that's on topic, with a section that ISN'T on topic, with the above 2 as an example, the entire post should be deleted, and the member can try again.

They shouldn't be ignored because they're partially on topic.
They shouldn't be edited, as then you have to babysit, and it's unsustainable.

I think very quickly, people would learn that snide remarks just won't work any more.

Then we can have a MEGA THREAD on Hamilton as a person

And lots of little threads on various other aspects, where people can attempt to talk about them, without being labelled as Pro/Anti, and without it always descending in to "He's a good racer, but I don't like the way he X"

Yes I've been very specific in mention Hamilton, but I think it's obvious why...

[werks prototype]

More recently, threads like these have been looked upon by some as a 'fan appreciation' thread where dissenting opinions should not be given voice and by others as places to go to troll. It is this environment where the labels 'fanboy' and 'hater' or 'anti' become ingrained. We would like to stop this happening, and would like your views on how to do that.

Perhaps develop a definitive "yes/no" critera for "Trolling" and a similar criteria for "Fanboyism"? Maybe that's a better solution that a slightly subjective list of rules?

That way the debate between fans and critics won't be stifled - no matter what the thread.

Just my thoughts

I feel the above two concepts are consistent with each other.

"It is this environment where the labels 'fanboy' and 'hater' or 'anti' become ingrained. We would like to stop this happening"

I'll call this the "benefit of the doubt approach'

It is very much an infectious phenomenon, therefore perhaps the strategy of 'nipping it in the bud' is the most appropriate one. Reverse the entire ethos, make it more difficult to even go down that road in the first place by simply making it a more 'recognisable behaviour'. Increase the general awareness of the definition of just what constitutes such behaviour here. And hopefully it would start to police itself but perhaps more importantly it will be easier to detect. Afterall sometimes you can find yourself embroiled in such discussions and not even know it.

Edited by werks prototype, 08 April 2010 - 14:48.

[Bonaventura]

Dear All,

The hosts of the Racing Comments forum would like input from members of all forums regarding threads dedicated to specific drivers or teams.

In RC, these threads started with the Lewis Hamilton thread which was a discussion about a new up-and-coming driver who ought to make it into F1. Over a period of years the title of the thread has been taken as a banner to discuss any and all aspects in which Lewis is involved.

More recently, threads like these have been looked upon by some as a 'fan appreciation' thread where dissenting opinions should not be given voice and by others as places to go to troll. It is this environment where the labels 'fanboy' and 'hater' or 'anti' become ingrained. We would like to stop this happening, and would like your views on how to do that.

Please discuss and make suggestions. I will take your suggestions back to the RC mods and I promise to report on any changes in policy or house rules we make as a result.

Thank you.

P.S This is not an opportunity to insult each other or the RC mods.

Dear Mods, Hosts, Admistrators

May I am allowed to ask a question?
What kind of Forums do you prefer?
More an analytical, objektive, technical, clynical
or more a discussion board about the personal view and aspects of F1 which includes the drivers , teams etc?

If there are threads about certain drivers, it will always be subjektive and controversial ones, as far as any driver is a human being, and is subjective and controverse.
There will always be more emotional involvement as in some threads about more abstract topics.
IMO the MP4-25 Thread is one of the most interesting Threads of all (in the whole F1 Internet discussion board scene)
and would have been (exept some other good threads and discussions) soley worth signing up here
and the LEWIS HAMILTON Thread attends his career since the early states of it.
It's a kind of a documentation about him (Lewis) and his apperance in the media and the feedback of it and his supporters.
It's a kind of a reflection of his infuence of the F1 and the the way the modern F1 and the modern media works.
It would be a loss , if this two Threads were closed and would disappear.

I confess myself guilty that the reasons to sing up here were this two threads
and I confess myself guilty to be carried away sometimes to react like a "fanboy"

My suggestion:
Please, manifest plain (again) the way the discussions should be conducted in this "personal" driver threads
and keep them moving

IMO here in RC the proportions between more technical and more personal threads are reatlively well balanced.

[Bouncing Pink Ball]

I don't think anything can be done without drastically altering the personality of the Racing Comments forum. A combination of fandom, varying backgrounds and levels of sophistication, different age groups, unrestricted participation, cultural misunderstandings, high emotion, lack of in-depth knowledge needed to participate in as open-topic a forum as RC and, of course, the wonderful anonymity of the internet will always bring about the same mix of chat and fighting.

I can understand why the constant banter – some of it obviously started, as it's known, for the lulz – would grate on folks who miss the good ol' days before the masses started to arrive. I sympathize, but the only way to get back to that is by limiting membership and posting rights. Segmenting the board off into further, niche forums will create 'fandom ghettos'; one-stop areas for fanboys/fangirls to gush about their idol that will serve as flashing targets for trolling. Problem not solved, just tucked off into a corner. Also, superfans are extremely territorial; they will be even quicker to label legitimate dissent as trolling if given their own special place to gather.

Maybe it's just me, or maybe it's a symptom of too much internet familiarity, but I can't get all worked up about a few fanboys and a bit of internet drama. Sure, this was a better board, information-wise, in the past but geez, it's just the internet. Who cares if Poster X is wrong? I find some of the wilder fanboys unintentionally funny; I'd never place any of them on an ignore list or banish them to an isolated section of the board. I might miss some awesome comedy. Besides, they're just folks who are very caught up in their favourite sport and drivers. It's kinda endearing, in a way. As for the troll bait, it's all so very obvious. I don't take it (unless I'm in the mood). The only people here I get annoyed by are the self-proclaimed 'experts' and "Oh Dear, I must correct the ignorance!" crowd who lecture and talk down to others. That's not funny, not lovable and can't be solved by rearranging the forums.

I guess it comes down to what the majority wants. Would people be happier with more subforums, each with a distinct crowd that rarely mixes? I'd miss the differing opinions myself, but the opposite viewpoint, that we'd have more peace and greater freedom to have 'mature conversations', is just as valid.

[MegaManson]

The words troll should go into the swear filter or result in warnings if used by anyone

I get labelled a troll in the dedicated Hamilton thread if I don't say that his **** smells of scented roses and the word lowers the tone of discussion and debate and is highly annoying.

If anyone wants a thread solely to bum a driver then they should go to a forum dedicated to that driver or start their own forum to bum that driver, domain names are dead cheap and forum software like PHPBB or Invision is free or alternatively they can just get the hell over it and accept that not everyone likes their driver and that threads are for DISCUSSION of the driver or team both positive and negative.

It is not just Hamilton but others too, I committed the cardinal sin to Schumacher fans by suggesting in the Schumacher thread that he might be past it at 41 and might not last the season and troll was thrown at me like confetti, I did not say that Schumi engages in devil worship, child rape or bear baiting I simply suggested that given he is being consistently beaten by Nico that he might not have it any more yet "troll" was used repeatedly.

I think that it should be made crystal clear in threads that discussion of a driver or team both positive and negative is the way it is going to be and the word troll will result in a warning unless there is very very hard evidence that the person is trolling

[undersquare]

The words troll should go into the swear filter or result in warnings if used by anyone

I get labelled a troll ...

It hasn't occurred to you that your avatar might give members certain, errr, preconceptions?


Seriously, other people criticise drivers without being called a troll. And trolling is a real nuisance behaviour we can't just ban the word.

[MegaManson]

It hasn't occurred to you that your avatar might give members certain, errr, preconceptions?


Seriously, other people criticise drivers without being called a troll. And trolling is a real nuisance behaviour we can't just ban the word.

My avatar is a parody, pisstake a trolling avatar would be for example a "Hamilton Family" pic, this is just a humourous almost cartoony take on Liegate, if Bruce Thomson had done this pic in his pieces in Autosport it would have been seen as humour so I don't understand how it is seen by many as flamebait/trolling

[Bouncing Pink Ball]

True, MegaManson is pushing buttons occasionally, but not all the time. I'd say he has hit on half the main problem – gaggles of adoring fans fantarding and labelling everyone who isn't on board the praise train as a troll. The other half, of course, being the folks who wade in to poke the group love with sticks for giggles. Most posters fall somewhere in the middle, but the fanspats get annoying and because of that lots of members can't be bothered trying to have multifaceted, civil conversations about drivers.

I'm actually curious to see how (or even if) this little issue gets tackled. That's why I keep hanging around this thread :

Move 'em – IMO, they'll keep to themselves, but still wander in to group police any perceived criticism of their idols, then run back to the safety of Driver /Team X forum and complain about the meanies in RC. I'm not sure that's an improvement. It might work...

Disallow 'em – Setting an ultra strict standard of behaviour and conduct could result in quite a dry, boring board, I think.

Educate 'em – Does setting new rules but allowing for self-policing really work on diverse forums, especially ones where folks are emotionally charged (like after sports events) or highly opinionated? I mean in the long term. Say, banning the use of 'troll'; won't many posters still eventually get all insulted and just call the perceived offender a t***l or some other title? At what point do mods have to step in? Too little intervention and you get complaints about bad behaviour, too much and you stomp the life right out of the board.

[kismet]

One (wo)man's trolling is another (wo)man's sarcastic/weird sense of humour.

I just thought I'd put that out there because apparently I'm a part-time troll/meanie and I don't see myself as one. I don't post controversial/confrontational stuff to get a rise out of others, I post sarcasm-infested 'private jokes' to highlight the absurdity of a particular discussion or to introduce an alternative point of view that may or may not be my own. Because that's fun. Because that's how I deal with negativity; I don't pick a fight, I make a [bad] joke about it. Because that's me, and I'm weird and too much of a wuss to pick fights. I think it should be obvious to everyone who's been around for longer than five minutes that I'm just joking (or attempting to, anyway) and not trying to be hurtful, and while I've come to realise this is so not the case, I can't imagine continuing to spend so much time on this BB if I have to start self-censoring my every word so as not to offend someone's delicate sensibilities.

I guess my overall point is that, aside from the really really obvious namecalling and 'campaigning', it's just about impossible to define what constitutes a troll. And, dare I say this, I'm not even sure why subtle trolling, if done right, is so bad. We've had many threads that, based on who started them and what that poster's posting history is like, were more or less obvious trolling attempts but sometimes, if the troll/opening post was subtle enough, those still sparked a proper discussion.

As for actual solutions, I really think it's all about moderation and setting certain standards. I know that's the boring answer and requires a lot of hard work but I don't really see what else could be done. House rules already ban the kind of behaviour we're talking about, they just need to be enforced which is obviously easier said than done but... One of the things the 'nice' message boards I've been to seem to have in common is their strict do-not-discuss-other-posters policy, and I'm talking zero tolerance here: no snide "well, you'd say that" remarks, no blanket "NN fans are this or that" generalisations, no "I think everyone who <whatever> is <whatever>", no "I don't understand how anyone can <whatever>" etc. or your post will end up in Deleteville. It may seem a bit harsh and stupid at first but I think the general idea is that people will soon stop trying to pull that crap if it's made clear it's not tolerated in any way, shape or form.

Edited by kismet, 09 April 2010 - 17:43.

[Bouncing Pink Ball]

kismet, I always thought most people here understood your style, but then I noticed you being misread a few times. That makes me wonder exactly what many consider inappropriate or deserving of the troll and fanboy labels.

[FonzCam]

A sub forums is the way to go, it's then just a matter of what moves there and what stays in RC.

If it were up to me I'd go for drivers, teams and Vs threads in a single sub forum. Then merge car threads into the team threads and ban general single car threads.

Perhaps then a slight rules tweak or an advisory to avoid overly negative discussions about the team or driver, leave those for RC in topics that specifically address the grievance. That way we get good debate in RC and it's clear that if you don't like/have nothing good to say about driver X stay out of their thread and if you think driver X walks on water then RC is probably not the best place for you to talk about them.

On a more general note to stop some of the miscommunication that leads to trolling (or the appearance of trolling). Maybe we should come up with some sort of signature based declaration of interests regarding our fanaticism (or lack of) for teams/drivers. Something like the Geek Code could work. That way it would be clear that I was "LH++ NR+++ FA- JB+ MW+ SV++ MS- FM+ RB+" then no-one would accuse me of being a Hamilton basher and would commend me when I said nice things about Schumi or Nando. It couldn't be compulsory but if we made it a bit less anonymous and a bit clearer where each of us stands there would be less confusion and jumping to conclusions and it'd make this place a lot more pleasant.

[undersquare]

One thing I would like is a facility to hide a thread.

[edit] I think it would help many people resist the temptation/provocation of some threads, like the LH weaving thread. Though I don't think many would hide the car threads.

Edited by undersquare, 12 April 2010 - 09:32.

[undersquare]

Well not much discussion going on here .

Looking at the Lewis Weaving thread, it seems Lewis is the thing everyone wants to talk about. I don't think it's a problem as long as the nastiness is kept out of it.

Just refreshing Mel's aim for this thread: "More recently, threads like these have been looked upon by some as a 'fan appreciation' thread where dissenting opinions should not be given voice and by others as places to go to troll. It is this environment where the labels 'fanboy' and 'hater' or 'anti' become ingrained. We would like to stop this happening"

Personally I would just ban the trolls and campaigners.

That would have the least effect on the decent majority and calm down the fanboys too. And any persistently annoying fanboys can be banned as well.

And I wouldn't make any announcement about it, in fact I'd positively use the Lewis threads as a resource for identifying undesirables.

[Wouter]

A sub forums is the way to go, it's then just a matter of what moves there and what stays in RC.

If it were up to me I'd go for drivers, teams and Vs threads in a single sub forum. Then merge car threads into the team threads and ban general single car threads.

Perhaps then a slight rules tweak or an advisory to avoid overly negative discussions about the team or driver, leave those for RC in topics that specifically address the grievance. That way we get good debate in RC and it's clear that if you don't like/have nothing good to say about driver X stay out of their thread and if you think driver X walks on water then RC is probably not the best place for you to talk about them.

On a more general note to stop some of the miscommunication that leads to trolling (or the appearance of trolling). Maybe we should come up with some sort of signature based declaration of interests regarding our fanaticism (or lack of) for teams/drivers. Something like the Geek Code could work. That way it would be clear that I was "LH++ NR+++ FA- JB+ MW+ SV++ MS- FM+ RB+" then no-one would accuse me of being a Hamilton basher and would commend me when I said nice things about Schumi or Nando. It couldn't be compulsory but if we made it a bit less anonymous and a bit clearer where each of us stands there would be less confusion and jumping to conclusions and it'd make this place a lot more pleasant.

I think that's a good idea, and I also favour general team threads rather than specific car threads. The latter pretty much have naturally grown to discuss the fortunes of the whole team, not merely some changes in frontwing or diffuser or winglets to a car. People want such team threads, and your suggestion to move it to a subforum (and change the rules a bit for this subforum only) would stop those threads from being major flaming fests.

I think this is better than forcing everybody to use the general practice/qual/race threads in RC, as inflaming comments (to one group or another) are much more likely to occur if you force all of the fans together. And in practice, it seems things degenerate quickly once one inflaming comment has been made. Discussion about the practice/qual/race pretty much stops once the flamewar begins.

Providing those subforums could keep things much quieter; people who don't want to be part of RC flamewars can stay on their own turf, so to speak.

[MegaManson]

Well not much discussion going on here .

Looking at the Lewis Weaving thread, it seems Lewis is the thing everyone wants to talk about. I don't think it's a problem as long as the nastiness is kept out of it.

Just refreshing Mel's aim for this thread: "More recently, threads like these have been looked upon by some as a 'fan appreciation' thread where dissenting opinions should not be given voice and by others as places to go to troll. It is this environment where the labels 'fanboy' and 'hater' or 'anti' become ingrained. We would like to stop this happening"

Personally I would just ban the trolls and campaigners.

That would have the least effect on the decent majority and calm down the fanboys too. And any persistently annoying fanboys can be banned as well.

And I wouldn't make any announcement about it, in fact I'd positively use the Lewis threads as a resource for identifying undesirables.

That would be ridiculous, what to you defines a troll in terms of Hamilton ? anyone that does not think his **** smells of roses ?

The word troll is used in that particular thread to describe anyone that makes an even remotely negative post regards Hamilton

Wanting to suppress opinion is fine if you are the Chinese president or Kim Jong-Il but it is disturbing that some want opinion suppressed just because it doesn't match their opinion on Hamilton

[undersquare]

That would be ridiculous, what to you defines a troll in terms of Hamilton ? anyone that does not think his **** smells of roses ?

The word troll is used in that particular thread to describe anyone that makes an even remotely negative post regards Hamilton

Wanting to suppress opinion is fine if you are the Chinese president or Kim Jong-Il but it is disturbing that some want opinion suppressed just because it doesn't match their opinion on Hamilton

I said "trolls" not "members who get called trolls in threads"

It's a common tactic to try and shift the argument to one of definition, when you don't have a genuine argument to make. And to draw ridiculous parallels: China N Korea .

But for the mods it's extremely easy to identify trolls - they post insincerely for effect. They post obvious lies, exaggerations and distortions (no inference intended ).

Absolutely nothing to do with suppressing sincere opinion or genuine discussion of F1.

[Buttoneer]

But for the mods it's extremely easy to identify trolls

No, it's not.

[undersquare]

No, it's not.

Oh yes it it . It just gets difficult if you start thinking people are owed a membership and are entitled to dodge around the brink of a set of formal rules.

[Buttoneer]

No it isn't if you take into account that someone who does not agree with you is entitled to hold their view and express it without being labelled a troll, especially when some of those views are from people whose second language is English.

[undersquare]

No it isn't if you take into account that someone who does not agree with you is entitled to hold their view and express it without being labelled a troll, especially when some of those views are from people whose second language is English.

Well of course we take opposing views into account, debate is the lifeblood of the forum. What I mean is that if you set a series of posts against the goals of the forum (to increase our enjoyment of F1) then it's pretty clear whether the poster shares that goal or not.

I'd say trolling is characterised by:

Not caring about the truth
Malevolence
Persistence

Somebody disliking (say) Hamilton for being immodest, gobby etc etc and arguing against him is fine. Likewise against Ferrari for spygate or whatever. It just should have roots in evidence, one way or another, so that it can be debated.

[FonzCam]

Well of course we take opposing views into account, debate is the lifeblood of the forum. What I mean is that if you set a series of posts against the goals of the forum (to increase our enjoyment of F1) then it's pretty clear whether the poster shares that goal or not.

I'd say trolling is characterised by:

Not caring about the truth
Malevolence
Persistence

Somebody disliking (say) Hamilton for being immodest, gobby etc etc and arguing against him is fine. Likewise against Ferrari for spygate or whatever. It just should have roots in evidence, one way or another, so that it can be debated.

The problem is that someone who doesn't care about the truth and is persistence is also called a fan(atic).

This causes the problem where a driver thread is devoid of reasonable discussion that a neutral party would want to join in with because it's full of fanatics and trolls. Even when the fans aren't arguing they are posting pages of fluff about how great they think their favourite driver is. When the F-duct story first started you'd be lucky to get 2 or 3 f-duct post per page of 'looks like we'll have a great year', '3 points of downforce', 'it looks fast because it's silver', 'Hamilton designed it himself' and 'McLaren are awesome' posts.

Add to the fact that the Technical forum often doesn't talk too much about current F1 (I assume because it keeps the fanatics and trolls away) it's also not the place to talk about budgetary, sporting or regulatory issues around new innovations.

[undersquare]

The problem is that someone who doesn't care about the truth and is persistence is also called a fan(atic).

This causes the problem where a driver thread is devoid of reasonable discussion that a neutral party would want to join in with because it's full of fanatics and trolls. Even when the fans aren't arguing they are posting pages of fluff about how great they think their favourite driver is. When the F-duct story first started you'd be lucky to get 2 or 3 f-duct post per page of 'looks like we'll have a great year', '3 points of downforce', 'it looks fast because it's silver', 'Hamilton designed it himself' and 'McLaren are awesome' posts.

Add to the fact that the Technical forum often doesn't talk too much about current F1 (I assume because it keeps the fanatics and trolls away) it's also not the place to talk about budgetary, sporting or regulatory issues around new innovations.

Well I can't say I'm sure but I have a feeling that a lot of the energy in the forum comes from things being mixed up rather than segregated into different groups of fans.

Personally I don't mind reading or skipping over some enthusiastic but mindless posts, if they're enjoying themselves. It's the negative ones I'd tighten up on and get rid of, as a real world society would.

And on your opening point, we could say any 2 of the 3, frankly anyone who persistently doesn't care about the truth won't be missed.

[Buttoneer]

Personally I don't mind reading or skipping over some enthusiastic but mindless posts, if they're enjoying themselves. It's the negative ones I'd tighten up on and get rid of, as a real world society would.

Robert Mugabe's society?

Freedom of speech means that (within the limitations of the forum being about 'racing') there will be negative views allowed as well as positive ones and as the latter race towards the bottom of the intellectual scale then so will the former. I am not at all convinced the positive mindless posts are any less damaging than the negative mindless ones for precisely the reasons FonzCam mentions. Good discussion gets buried by both and they each incite further examples of the other.

There should be room for everyone to express both positive and negative views about a subject without those who cannot recognise this shouting the other side down.

[undersquare]

Robert Mugabe's society?

Freedom of speech means that (within the limitations of the forum being about 'racing') there will be negative views allowed as well as positive ones and as the latter race towards the bottom of the intellectual scale then so will the former. I am not at all convinced the positive mindless posts are any less damaging than the negative mindless ones for precisely the reasons FonzCam mentions. Good discussion gets buried by both and they each incite further examples of the other.

There should be room for everyone to express both positive and negative views about a subject without those who cannot recognise this shouting the other side down.

Mugabe?

Let me say again that I'm not arguing against criticism, and obviously I'm not arguing against free speech. The OP is about reducing trolling and fanboyism, how are you proposing to define them?

And what are you proposing to do about the positive mindless posts? Are you going to set limits, or not? One way or another, there has to be a balance between free speech and the other things you want.

[FonzCam]

Mugabe?

Let me say again that I'm not arguing against criticism, and obviously I'm not arguing against free speech. The OP is about reducing trolling and fanboyism, how are you proposing to define them?

And what are you proposing to do about the positive mindless posts? Are you going to set limits, or not? One way or another, there has to be a balance between free speech and the other things you want.

That's why many have suggested moving them to their own forum as the mindless posts (both positive and negative) are heavily concentrated in the Driver/Team/Car threads. The solution from a personal level has always been to avoid these threads if you don't want to be involved in that type of partisan, polarised discussion. The rules for the forum have been that all discussion of a team should take place in these mega-threads the problem is that many of us are not interested. I have no doubt that those posting in the team threads are enjoying themselves and there seems to be a genuine sense of community and camaraderie within them and so it makes sense for them to be kept in some way. Remove them and we get rid of lots of members who do have valid contributions to make on other F1 discussions even if they are a bit blinkered about their favourites.

[Lights]

I don't think I'm able to bring valuable input on this subject, but I'll try anyway.

As an active user of some of the 'scary dangerous threads you shouldn't walk alone in' on this forum, I don't really see that much problems from my point of view. The discussions are heated but IMO they rarely get personal or go the wrong way. These threads are important to keep because it ensures these discussions don't pop up somewhere else. They often don't stay strictly ontopic, as it's easy to slowly slide away from it. But then again, would you want these discussions in the normal race thread for example? I doubt it. Sometimes I wish there's a stricter policy on trolls and other members who lost sense of reality, instead of making sure a thread doesn't go offtopic. But I guess that falls under freedom of speech.

If it's about reorganizing them or the forums they're in, I don't see what could improve the situation if no more subforums are wanted.

[undersquare]

The rules for the forum have been that all discussion of a team should take place in these mega-threads the problem is that many of us are not interested. I have no doubt that those posting in the team threads are enjoying themselves and there seems to be a genuine sense of community and camaraderie within them and so it makes sense for them to be kept in some way. Remove them and we get rid of lots of members who do have valid contributions to make on other F1 discussions even if they are a bit blinkered about their favourites.

would you want these discussions in the normal race thread for example? I doubt it. Sometimes I wish there's a stricter policy on trolls and other members who lost sense of reality, instead of making sure a thread doesn't go offtopic. But I guess that falls under freedom of speech.

I agree with these points. One thing that strikes me is that the Technical Forum is much much quieter than RC, and I suspect the reason is the absence of fan posting. In theory, the car threads are technical, but in practice I think an awful lot of the energy comes from support of the teams and drivers. After all the point of the car developments is to beat the other teams' cars.

So I'm not sure about more subforums, I think either they'd be dull or there'd be too much overlap with RC and endless modding required.

Coming back to my original Ghengis Khan position, it seems clear that trolls already have to be defined and identified, since they appear in the rules. The neatest and most effective solution seems to me to tighten up the rules on trolling and campaigning, and ban more of the very small minority of ill-intentioned or unsporting members who generate so much of the extreme polarisation. That will have the biggest effect on the threads, for minimum effort; giving more free speech not less, in fact.

[BRK]

Dropping in for a quick visit. Deleted a post on the Schumacher thread and reposting it here.

This was supposed to be a thread about Michael Schumacher,as far as I can see it appears to have progressed beyond the 'occasionally off-topic' stage and is now one loon's personal playground. There has been criticism,both constructive and otherwise,and some excellent refutations of the same from the beginning. As may be expected with topics pertaining to a driver that has massively polarized popular opinion,some amount of excessive/harsh/biased criticism countered by quickfire,in-your-face responses is natural. The occasional trolling is also perhaps understandable. Never a problem. But it's annoying to have to visit a thread to find every discussion abruptly interrupted by an inane and utterly irreverent post,page after page. The constant vilification and the immature,rabid approval of anything and everything that hints at an anti-MS stand is very provocative,to be honest. (patting someone on the back for how much hate the other seems to share in common-what is this,kindergarten?!) If someone professes dislike for a driver,why spend the entire jobless day hanging out in that very driver thread?

Ignore is an easy option but I'd say it's spoiling it a bit for the neutrals that visit the thread as well. You lose interest in posting anything on-topic because of all the garbage you've just passed on your way down. And this is about the most successful driver in F1 history,returning to a steep learning curve after three years in retirement: little chance the topic's silently going to slide off the front page.


I personally understand the need to go easy on a person that's a bit soft in the head and give them the space they might need to heal but this is getting ridiculous. Eradicate/curb the provocateur(s) > eliminate the (need for) low quality/off-topic responses > steer the threads the right way. (NOT criticism,however harsh-only the provocative stuff that is otherwise devoid of any substance whatsoever) All this assuming,of course,that cleaning up the forum is high on the priority-list...

Sorry about the rant,it's easy to lose your cool when you read through some of the nonsense on that thread,or on the Schumacher/Hamilton does XYZ/vs XYZ thread for that matter.

I'm quite aware pf the fact that posters like me tend to respond to particularly acerbic posts and remarks in the same tone,but I think this vicious circle could be done away with if the provocation did not exist in the first place. I don't know if the BB code allows for such a provision but how about a rating system for individual posts rather than just entire threads? If a sufficient number of people vote the post out it is deleted automatically or reported to the mods (same as the report feature but less taxing on the conscience,I guess). Thus nipping the off-topic arguments/rants in the bud and ensuring the thread remains clean.It's probably open to abuse but it could be made manageable if appropriate voting restrictions also applied..

[FonzCam]

how about a rating system for individual posts rather than just entire threads?

That is of course the alternative, introduce some form of karma system. Only allow those with high Karma to rate posts, give privileges to those who consistently post informative and on topic posts whilst give the ability to minimize/filter anything below a certain level so you don't have to wade through the pointless/offtopic/trolling posts.

Even just moving the star rating from your profile page to under your avatar would be an improvement. (you might have to weight the average or remove the ability to rank to new/low ranking users) Just being able to see if the person is always a troll or if this is just you reacting badly to their opinion would be good.

[Bouncing Pink Ball]

Doesn't having privileges partly based on rankings open up a whole new avenue for abuse? People who run afoul of a particular group of fans would get voted down, other could be boosted out of proportion by their pals and, naturally, enemies would be able to publicly de-rank each other.

The above aside, I'm not crazy about giving a more prominent spot to member ratings. Going by experience elsewhere, not only does it create a stricter, obvious impression of board hierarchy – the popular versus the nobodies – but it encourages folks to base their opinions of another poster on what others have said, even if the visible indicator of group judgement has been skewed by the aforementioned scenarios.

Of course, if I was part of the 'in crowd', I'd probably been all in love with rankings!
(No, not really; I'd still be against such a system)

[as65p]

It's actually quite scary to watch on this thread how many people seem to prefer dictatorship over democratic values, of course all under the premise that the dictators act in line with their own particular views.

[undersquare]

That is of course the alternative, introduce some form of karma system. Only allow those with high Karma to rate posts, give privileges to those who consistently post informative and on topic posts whilst give the ability to minimize/filter anything below a certain level so you don't have to wade through the pointless/offtopic/trolling posts.

Even just moving the star rating from your profile page to under your avatar would be an improvement. (you might have to weight the average or remove the ability to rank to new/low ranking users) Just being able to see if the person is always a troll or if this is just you reacting badly to their opinion would be good.

I think filtering, in one way or another, would be well worth looking at.

[as65p]

Elaborate, please. I am not entirely sure what's on your mind.

Try this; how would suggest to manage following two scenarios:

1. Certain poster periodically re-surfaces on this RCF and declares Schumacher "a cheater". Not once, not twice, but repeatedly and in the middle of unrelated discussion. Are you then faced with a free speech, or deliberate defamation of a character, and should you be forced to listen to it as a fan? In response would you bann him from BB, or temp. just from a particlular thread where he is steering watters to allow him to cool down, or would you do nothing?

2. Now something different. You will voice an opinion in the middle of euphoric Kubica's crowd that not only you think he doesn't ranks third current best, but rather eight or maybe even eleventh. In response you will be compared with chemical Ali of infamous Saddam's government. Now what?

Both your scenarios are already covered by current forum policies and in 9 out of 10 cases the mods do a good job at enforcing that policies. In reality there isn't much more one can ask.

One can leave BB, or ignore such posts. Problem is, that then people like that win, and one day you may find out they controlling your life. So, what is a correct response then?

Hu? They win, what exactly? If it is as clear-cut as in your example #1, they "win" only if they manage to provoke enough posters, and it's entirely in your own hands to allow that to happen - or not. In example #2, well, bring forward a good argument why Kubica is only the 11th best driver. If you can't, be prepared to ridiculed, and rightly so.

I don't see a problem in either case. At least much less of a problem as there would be with a poster rating system which would inevetably lead to "gangs" forming up and rate-fighting eachother.

[as65p]

I rest my case.

Hm. That doesn't really feel like a "win" to me...

[Twin]

I'm sure I posted in this thread but now I can't find it

Basically, can we have 1 support thread for a driver's fans, and 1 general discussion for everything/everyone else?

Edited by Twin, 05 May 2010 - 09:50.

[BinaryDad]

One forum that I've been a member if for many years, introduced a system of "groans" and "thanks" for posts. It's a forum populated by people working in the video games industry, and boy, you should see some of the ranting and abuse that goes on there.

But the thanks system has been used pretty fairly. I've only ever seen a couple members out of roughly 10,000 abuse the system when they just don't like a certain poster. And even then, it gets stopped pretty quickly when the mods see it getting out of hand.

[slideways]

One driver thread, one teammates thread, one team thread and one car thread per year with separate threads for notable points of interest.

More bans from both sides of the fence for repeat offenses of taking threads off topic.

More bans from both sides of the fence for repeat offenses of taking arguments personal.

[Wouter]

One driver thread, one teammates thread, one team thread and one car thread per year with separate threads for notable points of interest.

More bans from both sides of the fence for repeat offenses of taking threads off topic.

More bans from both sides of the fence for repeat offenses of taking arguments personal.

I actually think the current policy for keeping threads strictly on topic is excessive. Thread drift is natural - as long as it doesn't degenerate in an endless debate like the "Schumacher is God/Schumacher is dirty cheater" kind of topics. The latter kind of thing can really disrupt a thread to the point the original (on topic) contributors just move away from it. However, in a thread like the Mp4-24 one from last years, all kinds of things were discussed in what was often a friendly atmosphere. A lot of it was not strictly about the Mp4/24, but why is that necessary? The mods are attempting to keep the MP4-25 thread strictly on subject, which they see as the car only, but IMO that is not the intent of the thread and of the original threadstarter, in spite of the name of the thread. It is more like a general thread on the (dis)fortunes of the racing team Mclaren in 2010, with all of the comments that entails - including performances in races and qualy.

The mods don't seem to like the latter - but it would be very excessive to ban people because they talk about performance in what some people feel should be a purely technical car thread! Ban people for multiple attempts to really disrupt a thread - when meant as trolling, to start a flamewar, sure. But please give up that strictly on-topic policy. Like any conversation, threads tend to drift. As long as they get back to topic gently, what's the harm done?

I am not in favour of grading systems for users. That will just end up in fans of drivers or teams voting their own guys "up" and those from the opposing group(s) "down". It would be merely a measure of relative popularity, not a serious indication of the quality of contributions (which is rather subjective anyway).

[FonzCam]

One driver thread, one teammates thread, one team thread and one car thread per year with separate threads for notable points of interest.

More bans from both sides of the fence for repeat offenses of taking threads off topic.

More bans from both sides of the fence for repeat offenses of taking arguments personal.

The problem lies in where the line between a notable point of interest and just more news/information about the car. You also have the problem of two distinct groups of users, those fans who want to create a friendly supportive thread about their team/driver and those who might not be fans of that team but want to discuss (possibly in less then favourable terms) those more general points of interest. Often I'll miss some good discussion because it started in a general team thread and then split out into it's own topic or I'll loose track of something when it is merged into the big thread because it's been deemed not notable enough to have it's own thread.

I still think the best option is for Team and Driver threads in their own forum as a safe, fluffy, kid gloves place to evangelise amongst the converted about how great they are and leave the main RC forum able to have lots of shorter more on topic threads about specific notable points of interest without having to trample over the hopes and dreams of a drivers hardcore fans.

I'm not quite sure how you'd write the sub-forum rules but they would need to be stricter about personal insults and 'trolling' but more lax about drifting off topic a little. Hopefully this would let those who have genuine reasoned arguments against drivers could express those on the main forum and the die-hard fans of said driver could read them and head to the driver thread in disbelief at the horrible things the meanies are saying about driver xx in the RC forum!

[Lights]

I actually think the current policy for keeping threads strictly on topic is excessive. Thread drift is natural - as long as it doesn't degenerate in an endless debate like the "Schumacher is God/Schumacher is dirty cheater" kind of topics. The latter kind of thing can really disrupt a thread to the point the original (on topic) contributors just move away from it. However, in a thread like the Mp4-24 one from last years, all kinds of things were discussed in what was often a friendly atmosphere. A lot of it was not strictly about the Mp4/24, but why is that necessary? The mods are attempting to keep the MP4-25 thread strictly on subject, which they see as the car only, but IMO that is not the intent of the thread and of the original threadstarter, in spite of the name of the thread. It is more like a general thread on the (dis)fortunes of the racing team Mclaren in 2010, with all of the comments that entails - including performances in races and qualy.

The mods don't seem to like the latter - but it would be very excessive to ban people because they talk about performance in what some people feel should be a purely technical car thread! Ban people for multiple attempts to really disrupt a thread - when meant as trolling, to start a flamewar, sure. But please give up that strictly on-topic policy. Like any conversation, threads tend to drift. As long as they get back to topic gently, what's the harm done?

I am not in favour of grading systems for users. That will just end up in fans of drivers or teams voting their own guys "up" and those from the opposing group(s) "down". It would be merely a measure of relative popularity, not a serious indication of the quality of contributions (which is rather subjective anyway).

I totally agree with this.

It is kinda natural how a thread tends to drift a bit of the main topic. For instance, when a post including an example is made, the example not being totally ontopic, but it is used to prove something to someone related to the topic. Then people react on that example and it gets discussed.. is that offtopic? Not in my view, as it's still related, but usually it leads to a remove-raid from moderators and everything is gone.

About the grading systems, there already is a member rating option on this forum which I don't understand the necessity of at all either. I'd rather have no ratings anywhere.

[Messi10]

More recently, threads like these have been looked upon by some as a 'fan appreciation' thread where dissenting opinions should not be given voice and by others as places to go to troll. It is this environment where the labels 'fanboy' and 'hater' or 'anti' become ingrained. We would like to stop this happening, and would like your views on how to do that.

Perfect example of this is happening now in the Rosberg vs Shumacher thread.. I've been insulted and labeled as a basher/hater simply for sticking to my opinion which is that MS had problems with adapting to the car in the first 4 races and now with a more suitable car he is performing better.. Geez, even MS admitted to this but his fans just cannot accept anything other than Shumi is god on any of his threads..

I mean why is it that reputable journalists and ex-f1/f1 drivers are saying the same thing but when we here post those same view we get labeled..

Edited by Messi10, 08 May 2010 - 17:54.