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Preview: German GP - Hockenheim


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Poll: Hockenheim Contenders (265 member(s) have cast votes)

Which car will be the quickest at Hockenheim?

  1. McLaren (64 votes [24.15%])

    Percentage of vote: 24.15%

  2. Red Bull (159 votes [60.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 60.00%

  3. Ferrari (25 votes [9.43%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.43%

  4. Mercedes (7 votes [2.64%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.64%

  5. Renault (6 votes [2.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.26%

  6. Other (seriously?) (4 votes [1.51%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.51%

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#1 zztopless1

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 04:00

Getting a bit tired of the endless threads about driver favouritism etc.

Looking forward, what are people's thoughts on which car/team will be best suited to Hockenheim?

Seems to be a mixture of high-speed corners, the low-speed stadium section and the long back straight into the hairpin.

Similar to Turkey perhaps?... with Redbull and McLaren being strong in different sectors, but close overall? How about Ferrari and Mercedes? Which team(s) are planning to bring upgrades?

Circuit Layout:

http://www.formula1....il/germany_834/

Discuss :)

Edited by zztopless1, 13 July 2010 - 04:06.


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#2 Jimisgod

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 04:18

Hispania, buoyed by the world cup win, will take a glorious one-two.

#3 Andrew Hope

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 04:44

For some inexplicable reason, I think we'll see a positively horrendous shunt going into the hairpin on the first lap. A lot of drivers have never raced at this track (at all or in F1). Maybe we'll luck out and Trulli will bin it and take out Vettel, Webber, Hamilton, Button, Alonso and the Mercedes and we'll have a good race for once.

#4 BennyJohnson

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 04:49

For some inexplicable reason, I think we'll see a positively horrendous shunt going into the hairpin on the first lap. A lot of drivers have never raced at this track (at all or in F1). Maybe we'll luck out and Trulli will bin it and take out Vettel, Webber, Hamilton, Button, Alonso and the Mercedes and we'll have a good race for once.


:clap:

I think it depends on development. Red Bull have a decent F-Duct, it's up to Mclaren to get their EBD working. I Can't really see Mclaren following Red Bull through the Nordkurve, but I can see (and Ferrari) blowing them away on the straight-away's.

McLaren's to lose IMO, but we won't know until P1 I guess.

#5 Meanbeakin

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 05:04

I think Red Bull will have the upper hand, only the one long straight really for McLaren to have the advantage.

#6 lbennie

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 05:10

I think Red Bull will have the upper hand, only the one long straight really for McLaren to have the advantage.


and they aren't f-duct-less anymore


#7 mkoscevic

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 05:33

Hispania, buoyed by the world cup win, will take a glorious one-two.


:rotfl:

For some inexplicable reason, I think we'll see a positively horrendous shunt going into the hairpin on the first lap. A lot of drivers have never raced at this track (at all or in F1). Maybe we'll luck out and Trulli will bin it and take out Vettel, Webber, Hamilton, Button, Alonso and the Mercedes and we'll have a good race for once.


They all have a simulator.

Anyone remembering crazy Hockenheim 2000 race? It was such a epic afternoon back then :love:

#8 ViMaMo

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 06:14

The Mickey Mouse track might not have many surprises, teams should be closer in qual and race.

Any information on the setup similarities to other tracks?

Edited by vivian, 13 July 2010 - 06:22.


#9 Andrew Hope

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 06:23

I have a simulator too, a racing wheel screwed to my desk, a wooden chair with a pillow for my ass and a no fear attitude, doesn't mean I wouldn't bin it on the run down to the hairpin. Although I'd trade my testicles for the chance :D.

#10 Mika Mika

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 06:26

The Mickey Mouse track might not have many surprises, teams should be closer in qual and race.

Any information on the setup similarities to other tracks?


I rember form 2008 that the Parabolika (long sweeping turn 5) is effectivily a straight it's so shallow.

#11 Dalin80

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 06:36

I think its reasonably safe to say that red bull have the fastest car just about everywhere this year and i see no reason to believe that they wont again in germany.

Of course the massive speed advantage that they have enjoyed so far has been utterly wasted but they still have to be favourites for the win.

#12 derstatic

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 06:39

Button is usually really sharp at the new Hock. If he can get his Q in order he could win it. Bulls have to be favourites though. They have been the quickest car everywhere except Canada for obvious reasons. The one long straight and many low-medium speed corners should give other teams (McLaren, Ferrari) a shot at victory, but I expect either Bull on pole. If there is a big shunt at the start I rather think it will be in T1. It's very quick and very very narrow at the apex. Extremely short brakingzone aswell.

#13 Palmero

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 06:43

RedBull had one of the best straight line speeds in Silverstone(3rd or 4th i think), behind Mclaren, Force India, and one or two other teams.

I hope Mclaren get their act together and catch up some in the aero department, it could be close.

#14 ashnathan

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 08:43

I think this will be McLaren's race. They always go well here no matter what car they produce. Lewis is mega here as is Jensen and I think Vettel will crack under home crowd pressure like he did last year. And if its an all Red Bull front row him and Webber will shunt into the first corner. I think Lewis will take the win from Webber and Button with Vettel 4th.

#15 Fastcake

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 09:05

Well if the Red Bulls qualify together I predict fireworks :cool:

#16 ashnathan

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 09:31

Will look something like 2003 hopefully without a McLaren getting destroyed

#17 zztopless1

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 09:46

Well if the Red Bulls qualify together I predict fireworks :cool:


No more likely than at the start of the British GP and they managed to avoid each other there. If it wasn't for the puncture, I suspect it would have been Redbull 1-2 after the first lap.

#18 fauxhemian

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 09:50

If they take each other off, I can't wait for the 2010 version of this:



#19 jeze

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 09:56

Mickey Mouse track? It's the sixth fastest in F1 :clap:

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#20 Fubar1979

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 09:58

It has nothing on the old track unfortunatly, how i would love to see it come back.

#21 Gareth

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 10:00

RB to be quicker in qualifying. If Mac get their new package working, them to be quicker in the race. Ferrari to be in the mix too based on pace at the last 2 races. With overtaking a genuine possibility at this circuit, and 6 cars in with a chance of the win IMO, I think we could be in for a cracking GP.

#22 Lights

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 10:01

I hope and voted McLaren. And then I'm talking about race pace.

#23 ashnathan

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 10:04

No more likely than at the start of the British GP and they managed to avoid each other there. If it wasn't for the puncture, I suspect it would have been Redbull 1-2 after the first lap.


Silverstone wasn't Vettel's home race that he so badly wants to win. And after Silverstone Mark won't have any problems in givinghim a touch up.


#24 Dunder

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 10:15

Tyres will play an important part with Bridgestone bringing the hard and supersoft.

Red Bull showed in Valencia that they are going to be quick everywhere and are undoubtedly the team to beat.
McLaren appear to be confident that they will be able to make their EFD work at Hockenheim.
Ferrari need to make another step to be able to compete right at the front IMHO.

The track should fundamentally play to the strengths of McLaren albeit I recall the turns on the entrance to the stadium section (S3) being quite bumpy which has been an issue for them all season.



#25 Hippo

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 10:18

Red Bull will have the fastest car. But beating Hamilton will be very, very difficult. He raced there only once in F1 but that was a very impressive show of excellence.

#26 stillOrange

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 10:20

RBR I suppose

For some reason I just love Hockenheim track.

#27 Mungo Fangio of the Year

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 11:02

Will be fun to see if Force India do good again at Spa.

#28 domhnall

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 11:07

I think red bull will be very fast through the stadium section. Now that red bull have the f-duct, they shouldn't lose too much time down the straights (and of course they can run less wing). Unless Mclaren really get the blown diffuser dialled in, I'm not sure they can challenge for the win. Ferrari should be pretty quick.

#29 dren

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 11:22

I think this will be McLaren's race. They always go well here no matter what car they produce. Lewis is mega here as is Jensen and I think Vettel will crack under home crowd pressure like he did last year. And if its an all Red Bull front row him and Webber will shunt into the first corner. I think Lewis will take the win from Webber and Button with Vettel 4th.


That sounds reasonable to me. I'd like to see a Mclaren 1-2 with Button winning, but that's just wishes.

#30 KateLM

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 11:31

For McLaren, it all hinges on getting their upgrade to work, and despite what they say, I don't think its a foregone conclusion that they will. Ferrari and Williams didn't struggle as much as they did when they first introduced it. Mercedes did, but then they always struggle with any upgrade. I would say this is Button's best track, so the battle between him and Hamilton will be interesting. And as for McLaren normally going well here, well they are normally good at Monaco too, that didn't mean anything this year.

Red Bull have the F-duct now so won't struggle as much on the straight - they've won a few races with significant straights now anyway. I expect them to be on pole, race pace we'll see. If I recall correctly, Webber also is pretty good at this track so there could be fireworks yet.

Ferrari I expect to be thereabouts but not challenging for the front row or win.

#31 Stormsky68

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 11:32

There aren't so many high speed corners so Red Bull won't have such a crushing advantage as Silverstone.

A good car is good everywhere, so I still expect them still to be the team to beat.

Red Bull's chased all the way by Lewis and Alonso. In the race, one Red Bull will explode/crash/sink/roll/fly/retire/stolen/ebay-d, and Alonso will serve a 1 minute penalty for stealing towels out of the men's washroom.

Lewis 2nd place.

Edited by Stormsky68, 13 July 2010 - 11:35.


#32 PNSD

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 11:44

Sectors 1 and 2 = Mclaren
Sectors 3 = RedBull all over.

Will be an epic close battle with all 3 top teams and maybe Kubica.

The car demands for here are being strong under brakes (Mclaren) and very good traction which is crucial here.

As mentioned, this is one of Buttons better hunting grounds. If he sorts out his 1 lap pace then he will be in the top 2 imo. However, if not, we know he can overtake here and it will put on a show!

I just got a feeling this will be one of the best races of the year ;-)!

#33 ashnathan

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 11:48

Renault will be dark horses here. And I think the McLaren hopes don't hinge on the update, I think they can challenege even with the old spec car at this circuit. That being said...

..Is this the 'golden bullet' of the Red Bull FINALLY explained for their quali pace? Scarbs explains the retarding of the ignition to cause gasses to remain flowing while the throttle is closed, and whats better, its not hard to do!

http://scarbsf1.word...-teams-q3-pace/

#34 Dunder

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 12:01

There aren't so many high speed corners so Red Bull won't have such a crushing advantage as Silverstone.

A good car is good everywhere, so I still expect them still to be the team to beat.

Red Bull's chased all the way by Lewis and Alonso. In the race, one Red Bull will explode/crash/sink/roll/fly/retire/stolen/ebay-d, and Alonso will serve a 1 minute penalty for stealing towels out of the men's washroom.

Lewis 2nd place.


I think you will find that a black flag is the precedent. I would not want Alonso to get off lighty.;)


#35 ashnathan

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 12:02

Greg Murphy had to serve a 5 minute penalty a few years back at Bathurst for a large fuel spill when they were refueling so basically what happened was he got out of the car screaming at everyone at the tv cameras, got the shits, went into the portaloo and didnt come out til the 5 minutes was up. now THAT is harsh.

#36 Raziel

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 12:03

For McLaren, it all hinges on getting their upgrade to work, and despite what they say, I don't think its a foregone conclusion that they will. Ferrari and Williams didn't struggle as much as they did when they first introduced it.


Just look at McLaren´s blown diffuser and compare it with Ferrari´s. It´s like day and night! :)


#37 Atreiu

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 12:03

Red Bull will easily be the quickest but this time I think Alonso will win out of pure anger.

I don't think it's similar to Turkey, but to Albert Park (Melbourne). No long corners and lots of short/medium straights.

Edited by Atreiu, 13 July 2010 - 12:19.


#38 moorsey

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 12:07

Renault will be dark horses here. And I think the McLaren hopes don't hinge on the update, I think they can challenege even with the old spec car at this circuit. That being said...

..Is this the 'golden bullet' of the Red Bull FINALLY explained for their quali pace? Scarbs explains the retarding of the ignition to cause gasses to remain flowing while the throttle is closed, and whats better, its not hard to do!

http://scarbsf1.word...-teams-q3-pace/


I just read that myself and it is so simple to do and, like most of the best things in life, the simple things always seem to work best.

#39 wj_gibson

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 12:07

Slightly mysterious, the new Hockenheim, in terms of identifying a preceding track this year that is most similar to it.

I'd be tempted to suggest Bahrain is closest to Hockenheim in terms of track characteristics, but that was really a bit of a test run for everyone.

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#40 Dunder

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 12:11

Slightly mysterious, the new Hockenheim, in terms of identifying a preceding track this year that is most similar to it.

I'd be tempted to suggest Bahrain is closest to Hockenheim in terms of track characteristics, but that was really a bit of a test run for everyone.


Bahrain and Canada are probably the most comparable.
I am surprised nobody else has mentioned tyres. A very abrasive track and a full two steps between the compounds (Hard and SuperSoft) will mean huge compromises.


#41 Ferrari2183

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 12:15

Just look at McLaren´s blown diffuser and compare it with Ferrari´s. It´s like day and night! :)

Damn...

#42 Owen

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 12:15

Sectors 1 and 2 = Mclaren
Sectors 3 = RedBull all over.

Will be an epic close battle with all 3 top teams and maybe Kubica.

The car demands for here are being strong under brakes (Mclaren) and very good traction which is crucial here.

As mentioned, this is one of Buttons better hunting grounds. If he sorts out his 1 lap pace then he will be in the top 2 imo. However, if not, we know he can overtake here and it will put on a show!

I just got a feeling this will be one of the best races of the year ;-)!

Ok, that sounds just too good to be true. Still... I hope you're right. :up:

#43 Atreiu

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 12:18

Slightly mysterious, the new Hockenheim, in terms of identifying a preceding track this year that is most similar to it.

I'd be tempted to suggest Bahrain is closest to Hockenheim in terms of track characteristics, but that was really a bit of a test run for everyone.



It's Albert Park. No long corners, plenty of short/medium straights.
Last time F1 went to both, McLaren dominated and only the SC got in the way of them scoring a 1-2 twice.

#44 wj_gibson

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 12:20

It's Albert Park. No long corners, plenty of short/medium straights.
Last time F1 went to both, McLaren dominated and only the SC got in the way of them scoring a 1-2 twice.


Albert Park is a much faster circuit, though.

Anyway, it rained there.

For some reason, I quite fancy Ferrari to be strong at Hockenheim.

#45 Stormsky68

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 12:21

Renault will be dark horses here. And I think the McLaren hopes don't hinge on the update, I think they can challenege even with the old spec car at this circuit. That being said...

..Is this the 'golden bullet' of the Red Bull FINALLY explained for their quali pace? Scarbs explains the retarding of the ignition to cause gasses to remain flowing while the throttle is closed, and whats better, its not hard to do!

http://scarbsf1.word...-teams-q3-pace/


...then why not replace the gearbox with an electric motor a-la diesel electric train, or than horrendous ve-hicle Top Gear put together Eagle i Man Thrust or whatever it was called, then you can run the engine at a constant 16,000 rpm regardless of cornering or road speed, and have a beautiful smooth steady air flow to the diffuser at all times.

Probably the wrong thread....sorry




PS: why not integrate 'that' then into a KERS drive solution. Man I'm on fire today....

Edited by Stormsky68, 13 July 2010 - 12:26.


#46 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 12:25

Judging by Silverstone form, even a 0.5 second jump in performance by Mclaren, will not be enough to stop Red Bull.

#47 Owen

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 12:28

Judging by Silverstone form, even a 0.5 second jump in performance by Mclaren, will not be enough to stop Red Bull.

Yeh, but the quali gap and the race gap are two very different things.

#48 Clatter

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 12:30

...then why not replace the gearbox with an electric motor a-la diesel electric train, or than horrendous ve-hicle Top Gear put together Eagle i Man Thrust or whatever it was called, then you can run the engine at a constant 16,000 rpm regardless of cornering or road speed, and have a beautiful smooth steady air flow to the diffuser at all times.

Probably the wrong thread....sorry




PS: why not integrate 'that' then into a KERS drive solution. Man I'm on fire today....


If your going to come up with suggestions then wouldn't it be better to make ones that would actually meet the regulations?

#49 mkoscevic

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 12:36

The Mickey Mouse track might not have many surprises, teams should be closer in qual and race.

Any information on the setup similarities to other tracks?


Hockenheim - the technical requirements

The revisions to the Hockenheimring in recent years have transformed what was once a flat-out burst through the forests into a medium downforce circuit, with teams having to balance the demands of a long back straight and a low-speed stadium section at the end of the lap. They therefore have to adopt a compromise with the set-up. The benefit of such a diverse track is that it usually gives an exciting race with plenty of overtaking opportunities. Here Renault describe how they plan to set-up the R28 for the German Grand Prix…

Aerodynamics:
Like the latest generation of Hermann Tilke-designed tracks, Hockenheim is characterised by long straights followed by slow corners and hairpins, designed with overtaking in mind. With such a long back straight, a good top-speed is essential to fend off competitors in the race, but this has to be balanced with the grip needed in the medium and low-speed parts of the lap. Downforce settings are therefore a compromise, requiring the team to adopt a medium downforce set-up and leaving the drivers short of grip in the low-speed stadium section, but allowing a reasonable top-speed on the straights.

Brakes:
The circuit is one of the hardest tests of the year on brakes, being similar to the demands of Bahrain. Braking stability is vital, especially into the hairpin at Turn Six, where it is easy to lock a wheel, and even more challenging following the removal of electronic braking assistance. The team therefore play close attention to finding the optimum braking and cooling solutions, which was one of the priorities at the pre-Grand Prix test.

Suspension:
The long straights and low-speed corner mix of Hockenheim requires contrasting suspension set-ups. Mechanically, we are able to run the cars quite soft as there are no significant high speed changes of direction on the circuit. Front to rear, we run a forward mechanical bias ie: a stiffer front end, in order to get good traction out of the slow and medium speed corners and keep the rear stable under braking. Indeed, with the braking zone into Turn Six being the main passing opportunity, braking stability is something we work hard to get right.

Tyres:
The demands on the tyres are quite severe and so Bridgestone will supply the hard and medium options from its range. The stress does not come from the lateral load of the corners, but is due to the traction zones and heavy braking required at this circuit. It will be the first time we have raced in Hockenheim with this generation of Bridgestone tyres and so the team made the most of the test last week to begin its tyre evaluation work. Hockenheim in July is also a place were we can expect high track temperatures and, coupled with the heavy traction demands, the team needs to keep a close eye on wear rates for the rear tyres and beware of blistering which will make the car unstable.

Engine:
The engine requirements at Hockenheim are not as demanding as in the past, but, with 63 per cent of the lap spent on full throttle, it's still a challenging workout and about average for the season. With a lack of high-speed corners, the main demands come from the long back straight. Good torque is essential and so the engine needs to work well at low revs to help the cars get a good exit out of the low-speed corners. The potential for high temperatures in Hockenheim also means the team must pay attention to cooling to avoid overheating, but the latest generation of V8 engines are capable of running at peak revs in high temperatures.

Renault, 2008

http://www.formula1....008/7/8097.html


Downforce levels are very similar to Canada.

It has nothing on the old track unfortunatly, how i would love to see it come back.


Indeed, it was an awesome track! At least stadium complex is still there.

#50 Gareth

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 12:38

For some reason, I quite fancy Ferrari to be strong at Hockenheim.

Yeah, me too. I don't think Alonso's chat about the performance they've got out of the car the past 2 races has been bluster. They genuinely seem to have taken a step in both Valencia and GB. RB always drop back from qualy performance to race and, whilst they were well ahead in qualy, Alonso was baulked on his best run. If you look at how close Hamilton was to Webber in the first few laps, and assume that Alonso could have gone quicker, it seems to me that Ferrari had the pace to give the RB's a hard time on a real RB track. Take that forward to Hockenheim and I think they could be in with a shout ...

Judging by Silverstone form, even a 0.5 second jump in performance by Mclaren, will not be enough to stop Red Bull.

I think it's important to mention that the gap in qualifying in Silverstone is exaggerated a bit by it being such a long track now.