56 replies to this topic

[rabbitleader]

I was wondering what everyone's thoughts are on this given that it could play a part in deciding the WDC. Will using old engines at this stage be a significant risk?

Taking Ferrari as an example because they have now used their entire allocation of new engines slightly earlier than the other teams with the exception of De LaRosa, Ferrari have said that they are relaxed about this with five more races to go. In their favour, their engine has on the whole been very reliable as has most of the engine suppliers, although Ferrari did have a few reliability issues earlier on in the season.

[BullHead]

Just being lazy here, how are the 3 contending teams comparing on that front?

[Alfisti]

I think it is a non issue myself, they'll all be OK.

[rabbitleader]

Here's a link that gives you an update:

http://www.totalf1.c...ons_post_Monza/

[BullHead]

Red Bull in best shape then, if it does mean anything.

[Dunder]

The lack of a fresh engine should not be a major factor at any of the remaining races and I don't think any of the drivers in contention are at any real risk of having to use a 9th.

As such, I don't think it will be a significant factor.

[bonjon1979a]

Red Bull in best shape then, if it does mean anything.

I wouldn't say that. Hamilton used his sixth engine for Spa only. Where as Webber used his for Spa and Monza - ie that engine has taken a pounding so probably won't be able to be used again. Hamilton only used engine 7 for qualifying laps and the first half of lap one at monza so it could be that he's in better as his engine 6 has got a lot more life left in it. In all honesty it's difficult to tell - certainly anyone who put their 8th engine in at Monza is going to be compromised towards the end of the season - even if that's only with regard to the amount of mileage they can do in practice.

[chrisblades85]

What ever affect it has on the championship. Let's hope this restriction rule is less restrictive when the new engines come in.

[Clatter]

What ever affect it has on the championship. Let's hope this restriction rule is less restrictive when the new engines come in.

Wouldn't hold your breath, and to be honest i think it's one of the better rules regarding engines.

[2ms]

What ever affect it has on the championship. Let's hope this restriction rule is less restrictive when the new engines come in.

Why? I'm not impressed with, for example, what Ferrari got away with this year which was claiming to be changing their engine to improve reliability (even though it was one of the most reliable engines already last year) while actually changing it to try to improve performance. They were able to get away with this even though it made the engine very unreliable because they just blew a couple engines and then changed the design again to improve reliability back to what it was before they "improved reliability". They clearly knew they could take risks with reliability to get extra performance because even if something went wrong (as they did) there were still plenty of engines available.

The engines and engine development costs a fortune. I think the teams should have to actually make the engines reliable and let's not have any unnecessary cost. When there are enough extra engines that the manufacturers can just fool around making risky changes that kill the reliability but have no consequences then I think this reveals that the engine number limit is already higher than it needs to be. Some of the teams are in serious financial trouble. Let's not have it be any harder than it needs to be by having unnecessary engine expenses.

[pingu666]

the ferrari engine stuff really hurt sauber aswell. ferrari have used both there joker engine changes aswell (in bahrain, for each car i think)
pedro is on his 9th engine already..

[chrisblades85]

Wouldn't hold your breath, and to be honest i think it's one of the better rules regarding engines.

I wasn't. I would just like to see a more open set of engine rules. Although that is never going to happen.

[Clatter]

I wasn't. I would just like to see a more open set of engine rules. Although that is never going to happen.

I'd certainly like more open rules, but I think the engine allocation rule is a good one. The one thing i would like though is more info on engine use.

[chrisblades85]

I'd certainly like more open rules, but I think the engine allocation rule is a good one. The one thing i would like though is more info on engine use.

I'm sure it was more open last season. Monza was the 1st time I knew about Ferrari being on there 8th engine.

[Clatter]

I'm sure it was more open last season. Monza was the 1st time I knew about Ferrari being on there 8th engine.

That info was available in the FIA media centre, same last year. But I would like to see which engines have been used where and when, and which ones are now lifed.

[undersquare]

What's the usage on Alonso's 6th and 7th engines, anyone know?

[Bleu]

What's the usage on Alonso's 6th and 7th engines, anyone know?

7th engine has only Spa, 6th has Hockenheim and most likely Hungary as well.

[primer]

Why? I'm not impressed with, for example, what Ferrari got away with this year which was claiming to be changing their engine to improve reliability (even though it was one of the most reliable engines already last year) while actually changing it to try to improve performance. They were able to get away with this even though it made the engine very unreliable because they just blew a couple engines and then changed the design again to improve reliability back to what it was before they "improved reliability".

Increasing performance this way is not really a big deal, FIA themselves have all but mandated 'equalized' engines. For all intent and purpose F1 at present is a spec engine series, it's just that these engines are made by many different constructors.

[Anishcgnr]

Remaining into the final five races Fernando Alonso is at a difficulty with his engines. He has no new engines left to use this season, while all his heading rivals have at least one and Mark Webber has two. How will this involve the title fight? See below for data on the teams’ engine use this year.

Every driver may use a limit of eight engines through the season. They get a ten-place grid penalty the first time they use any further engines. Teams use old race engines for practice running on Friday, so don’t be surprised if we see some of those going pop.

Alternatively teams may choose to limit the amount of practice they do. Remember how Sebastian Vettel missed almost all of first practice at Monza last year.

If a team thinks it expected that they will have to use a ninth engine, they may choose to do so strategically. Better to take a ten-place grid drop at Interlagos or Yas Island than a track like Suzuka or Singapore where overtaking is more hard. And, as we saw with Pedro de la Rosa at Spa, if a driver has qualified at the back and has already used his eighth engine, they may take the chance to open up a ninth and take the grid penalty when it doesn’t matter. View the current engine situation

[bond]

Engine usage to date:

McLaren Mercedes
1 Jenson Button 7
2 Lewis Hamilton 7

Mercedes GP
3 Michael Schumacher 7
4 Nico Rosberg 7

RBR Renault
5 Sebastian Vettel 7
6 Mark Webber 6

Ferrari
7 Felipe Massa 8
8 Fernando Alonso 8

Williams Cosworth
9 Rubens Barrichello 6
10 Nico Hulkenberg 7

Renault
11 Robert Kubica 6
12 Vitaly Pertrov 6

Force India Mercedes
14 Adrian Sutil 7
15 Vitantonio Liuzzi 7

STR Ferrari
16 Sebastien Buemi 7
17 Jaime Alguersuari 7

Lotus Cosworth
18 Jarno Trulli 7
19 Heikki Kovalainen 7

HRT Cosworth
20 Sakon Yamamoto 7
21 Bruno Senna 7

BMW Sauber Ferrari
22 Nick Heidfeld (formerly Pedro de la Rosa’s car) 9
23 Kamui Kobayashi 7

Virgin Cosworth
24 Timo Glock 7
25 Lucas Di Grassi 7

http://www.formula1....10/9/11273.html

[Captain Tightpants]

Ferrari's best bet will be to have Alonso take the engine penalty in Singapore. Going by the data posted at F1 Fanatic, Alonso's only good engines are the ones he used in Bahrain and Monza. I doubt Ferrari will want to touch the Bahrain engine; if they were confident about it, they would have re-used it by now. Every other engine has three races to its credit except for the one that blew at Sepang. Take the penalty, hope for a bit of damage control, and run two of the last four races on the Monza and Singapore engines.

I doubt they'll do it, though.

[DILLIGAF]

Ferrari's best bet will be to have Alonso take the engine penalty in Singapore. Going by the data posted at F1 Fanatic, Alonso's only good engines are the ones he used in Bahrain and Monza. I doubt Ferrari will want to touch the Bahrain engine; if they were confident about it, they would have re-used it by now. Every other engine has three races to its credit except for the one that blew at Sepang. Take the penalty, hope for a bit of damage control, and run two of the last four races on the Monza and Singapore engines.

I doubt they'll do it, though.

If Alonso was leading the championship i think your suggestion to take the penalty at Singapore would be a good thing, but whilst he's playing catch it's more likely that they'll use what good ones they have left. Any idea how many races the Spa engine has done? I thought it was had only done the one race at this stage?

[toxicfusion]

Alonso's engine usage:

Engine 3, 4 and 5 all did 3 races.
Engine 6 = two races (Germany and Hungary)
Engine 7 = one race (Belgium)
Engine 8 = one race (Italy)

Also they can use Engine 1/2 (depending on which has been used in FP) in Abu Dhabi.

[rabbitleader]

The stats in a strict sense are accurate but there will be several drivers who have barely used an engine such as Hamilton.

If I was in one of the teams that is bullish with its engines, I would be aiming to run the Ferrari's ragged until the end of each race to deny engine preservation. The only issue is the ability to do this if fuel consumption is an issue.

Edited by rabbitleader, 21 September 2010 - 18:26.

[BennyJohnson]

F1.com has published engine usage for the 2010 season, confirming that Ferrari drivers have used all 8 of their allocated engines.

Webber is only on his 6th while Vettel is on his 7th and both McLaren drivers have used 7 engines each.

So not only is Webber going into the fly away races with the points advantage, but he also has an engine advantage to the other front runners.

looking at the tracks, none of them are too engine demanding, although the majority of Korea should be spent at full throttle.

What do you guys think about how this affects the championship?

Do you think 1 engine can survive for 4 races?

Don't forget that old engines will not be as powerful as the new ones.

Article below:

http://www.formula1....10/9/11273.html

[lithium]

It is a non issue for Ferrari, because by the time the Brazilian GP comes, Alonso will have secured the WDC alrady

[Mika Mika]

Brazil is very hard on engines.

[undersquare]

Alonso's engine usage:

Engine 3, 4 and 5 all did 3 races.
Engine 6 = two races (Germany and Hungary)
Engine 7 = one race (Belgium)
Engine 8 = one race (Italy)

Also they can use Engine 1/2 (depending on which has been used in FP) in Abu Dhabi.

F1 engines get too old, just in calendar time, after a while. Not sure how old before they can't be used, but I'm pretty sure engines 1,2 won't be usable now. Was it No2 that blew up, anyway?

So I think FA has just 6,7,8.

[Clatter]

F1 engines get too old, just in calendar time, after a while. Not sure how old before they can't be used, but I'm pretty sure engines 1,2 won't be usable now. Was it No2 that blew up, anyway?

So I think FA has just 6,7,8.

They would have used engine 1 in FP, pointless trying to save it until the end of the season.

[UprightRacer]

Dose anyone actually have the milage figures? showing you how many engines each player has used this season dosnt tell us to much, as seven or six fully used engines is worse than seven to six half use engines...

Cheers

[moorsey]

I think the engine that Lewis Hamilton used for less than one lap of the last race will still be good to go so that could end up as an advantage.

[rabbitleader]

Tactics in the remaining races might be to push the Ferrari engine as hard as possible knowing that their options on engine useage may be more limited.

[Watkins74]

Tactics in the remaining races might be to push the Ferrari engine as hard as possible knowing that their options on engine useage may be more limited.

How would they do that?

[rabbitleader]

How would they do that?

Towards the end of a race when a driver is in a comfortable position with respect to cars behind accepts their current position as a result (and protects their own engine/car) rather than trying a longer shot of pushing hard to force an error from the leading car and risking damaging their own. In that situiation I could imagine a team saying that they need to press on even knowing that it would not in all probability result in a higher position...but could put pressure on the team ahead with fewer engine mileage to keep their revs turned up.

Not an everyrace occurrence but it was just a thought.

[MikeTekRacing]

I think the engine that Lewis Hamilton used for less than one lap of the last race will still be good to go so that could end up as an advantage.

I think he would have preferred to score points with it last time around though.
This so called advantage is rather damage limitation for other races

[bauss]

It is a non issue for Ferrari, because by the time the Brazilian GP comes, Alonso will have secured the WDC alrady

thats actually practically impossible

[Bleu]

I think he would have preferred to score points with it last time around though.
This so called advantage is rather damage limitation for other races

Certainly. But engine-wise, it's better to crash on the first lap than on the last lap. He has done both in last two years at Monza (but of course he wasn't in title race last year)

Edited by Bleu, 22 September 2010 - 14:56.

[Mika Mika]

I think he would have preferred to score points with it last time around though.
This so called advantage is rather damage limitation for other races

Id say more it means he can turn it up to 11 for longer in the next race where he needs the extra 1% at the pitstops, for example?

[R2D2]

It is a non issue for Ferrari, because by the time the Brazilian GP comes, Alonso will have secured the WDC alrady

I'm not sure it's going to be that easy for Felipe to crash into all four of the other main drivers at each race...

[rabbitleader]

I'm not sure it's going to be that easy for Felipe to crash into all four of the other main drivers at each race...

Team orders for the no 2 driver?

[rossgorooster]

Hi folks, can anyone tell me the permutations of what teams have used their full allocation of engines/gearboxes etc and how that will affect the remaining races?

What penalties would be incurred if they have to use more?

Is it likely to make any difference to the outcome of the championship?

Cheers. Bob Ewens.

Edited by ForeverF1, 14 October 2010 - 19:44.
Removed "[font="Comic Sans MS"][/font][size="4"][/size][color="#2E8B57"][/color]" Also, please use the excellent search function before starting new threads.

[dau]

Try here: http://www.vivaf1.com/engine.php

Using the 9th engine means a 10-place-penalty. Alonso will probably face that problem soon.

Edited by dau, 14 October 2010 - 17:40.

[metz]

Try here: http://www.vivaf1.com/engine.php

Using the 9th engine means a 10-place-penalty. Alonso will probably face that problem soon.

You mean Massa. Don't think so. They can use engine no1 for last race.
Heidfeld is screwed.

[dau]

You mean Massa. Don't think so. They can use engine no1 for last race.
Heidfeld is screwed.

Nope, i mean Alonso who has driven 3 GPs already on his 8th engine.

[tifosi]

I'm not sure it's going to be that easy for Felipe to crash into all four of the other main drivers at each race...

Awww, come on, have you no faith on Massa?

[Mackey]

Alonso used in Singapore his engine nº 6. That list is wrong. He has engines 7 (with 2 gp) and 8 (with 1 gp) available. Looking how an engine is used usually for 3 GPs, I think he´s fine.

Edited by Mackey, 14 October 2010 - 20:37.

[metz]

Nope, i mean Alonso who has driven 3 GPs already on his 8th engine.

Can he re-use a previous engine (7 or8)?
I'm sure a grid penalty is out of the question while in the title hunt.

Thanks Mackey

Edited by metz, 14 October 2010 - 20:40.

[Mackey]

I remember it because engine 6 was pretty succesful. Germany P1, Hungary P2 and Singapore P1.

[Raziel]

Alonso used in Singapore his engine nº 6. That list is wrong. He has engines 7 (with 2 gp) and 8 (with 1 gp) available. Looking how an engine is used usually for 3 GPs, I think he´s fine.

What about an engine failure in Malaysia? Where are those engines that he used on saturdays? [3rd free practice and qualifying sessions x16]

Edited by Raziel, 14 October 2010 - 22:04.

[dau]

Alonso used in Singapore his engine nº 6. That list is wrong. He has engines 7 (with 2 gp) and 8 (with 1 gp) available. Looking how an engine is used usually for 3 GPs, I think he´s fine.

The list is correct, as it only states the number of new engines used so far and not the engine used for each weekend. Yes, he probably could use one of his old engines again but the same was true for Massa and he still had to take the penalty at Singapore. So i wouldn't be surprised if Alonso uses a 9th engine for Korea or at least for Interlagos, which is not that easy on the engine. I'd take a 10-place-penalty (especially on a track where overtaking is possible) over a possible non-finish anyday.

Both Ferraris also have one unit they can use for Abu Dhabi only (the one that was changed after Bahrain qualifying), so that would give them one fresh and one barely used engine for the last two races.

Edited by dau, 15 October 2010 - 09:55.