26895 replies to this topic

[hunnylander]

But you do ahve to consider the competition, the RB6 must be up there with the best F1 cars ever designed?

I have not wrote such, the RB6 was able to compensate the championship winning driver's bad luck and mistakes.

Though if you're throwing that question, the RB6 is amongst the company of best F1 cars ever designed. It's just about how big this company we set to.

The winning RBR driver had chance for a dominant championship win with less technical problem, mistakes and a 'more team player 2nd drver a la Ferrari'.

[bogi]

From the http://mclaren.com/home

Bruce McLaren gets airborne in his Cooper Climax at the 1965 German GP



The launch of something special



Playing with words.

[Seanspeed]

The MP4-25 and Ferrari F10 were similar and a distant second to the RB6. Until Ferrari figured out how to run the front wings as low or almost as low as Red Bull. Only then did the MP4-25 become the 3rd fastest car.

Not true. The MP4-25 'seemed' to be 3rd fastest when the season started, too, remember? Cuz everybody was hailing Mclaren's development prowess when they started to perform well at places like Montreal and whatnot.

In fact, I honestly dont believe much anything changed all year. Yes, there were blips where Mclaren and Ferrari temporarily fell behind when trying to focus on important developments like the f-duct and the EBD, but if you look how the season started and how it ended, things pretty much remained the same.

Once again, the fallacy of trying to relegate either Mclaren or Ferrari to 2nd/3rd best rests in the fact that they were very different cars and were inevitably going to perform differently on different sorts of tracks, which makes it sometimes appear that one team has moved forward or back, but in reality, its all just track-dependent performance variables that make it seem this way.

I dont believe anything EVER had to do with how low they could run their wings.

[P123]

In fact, I honestly dont believe much anything changed all year. Yes, there were blips where Mclaren and Ferrari temporarily fell behind when trying to focus on important developments like the f-duct and the EBD, but if you look how the season started and how it ended, things pretty much remained the same.

Interesting point. Did the front running teams gain much, if anything, over HRT all season? Comparing Q1, HRT were 4.9s behind in China, 5.2s behind in Japan.....

As you say, you could match the blips suffered by Ferrari and McLaren with the time taken to get their major developments working.

[FSLIV]

i agree with you Hunny, the 25 whilst not a bad car was just a good car. not excellent, or amazing, which is what we should expect from our team.

Personally had a harder time watching the 25 on track than the 24, the 24 had pep, it was bullish with its KERS unit and we understood it far better than the 25. The 25 just gave us heart ache all year really. apart from the wins we never looked like beating the RBR, this is disappointing bit. The 24 however in the 2nd half of the season was pretty much a phoenix, and was exciting. I never felt excited for the 25's prospects in the race once we qualified behind the RBR and Ferrari, the best it could do without the other teams faltering was to finish in its exact position (But that can also be just typical of current F1 racing... however like i said, the 24 you felt could win races from behind)

I would have to agree. I really liked the 24 especially after the half of the season. For me it truly showed the might of Mclaren and LH to take such an initially handicapped car and turn it into a winner and consistent performer.

There was a sparkle about the 24 and Lewis that was or seem lacking with the 25.

Edited by FSLIV, 13 January 2011 - 01:05.

[BigCHrome]

McLaren has (relatively successful) KERS experience, Red Bull has none.
OTOH, last time they were both running around with single diffusers, Red Bull already had enough downforce to literally lap McLaren.

Considering the minimum weight has been raised from 2009 to 2011 (how much is it exactly?) and KERS packages have also become lighter, I don't expect Red Bull to have a very traumatic adaptation to it. Neither do I expect them to take steps back the pecking order when it comes to producing DF.

So, IMO, they'll remain slightly ahead early in the season unless the guys at Woking pull something from their sleeves. From then on it depends on their development pace.

A lot of the small details that RBR had in 2009 and 2010 are banned for this season. They also won't be able to have the small bodywork around the back with the KERS. They will have a lot of adaptation to do for next season compared to McLaren. First time KERS users might also have a harder time with getting the brakes to feel nice (every team had this problem in 2009).

I actually think Ferrari are the early favorite for next season.

[Yorkie]

Remember that Whitmarsh said he wants the team to become a brand and a leader in F1 in commercialising its success..... I'd settle for faster pitstops.

I'd settle more for a faster car

I would have to agree. I really liked the 24 especially after the half of the season. For me it truly showed the might of Mclaren and LH to take such an initially handicapped car and turn it into a winner and consistent performer.

There was a sparkle about the 24 and Lewis that was or seem lacking with the 25.

Yep the 25 was more bus like

[klyster]

From the http://mclaren.com/home

Bruce McLaren gets airborne in his Cooper Climax at the 1965 German GP



The launch of something special



Playing with words.

[hunnylander]

The launch of something special



Playing with words.

They express optimism.

As every other car, the 26 also might turn out to be a weak or bad car, but they don't feel that yet, and the 6 day relative delay in launch compared to last year is a sign of a pragmatic plan not a result of a cock-up and big troubles with the car. (If they could announce the launch date in advance by a month they could produce the car for 3 days earlier with a bit of overtime work.)

Even with the 24 they started to feel the big trouble only after when it went onto track. So a February 4 launch isn't a reason to worry about. Let the other teams and their fans worry about why "the launch of something special" is right after the 1st test.

Edited by hunnylander, 13 January 2011 - 08:57.

[Mastah]

In new issue of Autosport: sources from the team say McLaren is hopeful that MP4-26 will have as much downforce as MP4-25 already at its track debut (ridiculous really, I guess teams would recover all downforce even after removing front and rear wings in a few years of developement ) and the thing team wants to hide for 9 more days by delaying launch is agressively-packaged gearbox.

[Boxerevo]

In new issue of Autosport: sources from the team say McLaren is hopeful that MP4-26 will have as much downforce as MP4-25 already at its track debut (ridiculous really, I guess teams would recover all downforce even after removing front and rear wings in a few years of developement ) and the thing team wants to hide for 9 more days by delaying launch is agressively-packaged gearbox.

[bauss]

you mean

as much downforce is decent news, considering there is no DDD. Only problem is if the good folk at Ferrari or Red Bull find even more DF

Edited by bauss, 13 January 2011 - 10:10.

[undersquare]

In new issue of Autosport: sources from the team say McLaren is hopeful that MP4-26 will have as much downforce as MP4-25 already at its track debut (ridiculous really, I guess teams would recover all downforce even after removing front and rear wings in a few years of developement ) and the thing team wants to hide for 9 more days by delaying launch is agressively-packaged gearbox.

Interesting, let's hope. It seems a long time since Mac downforce was really up there. And a fancy gearbox, that won't be so copyable. Presumably the idea is to make other teams too late for the homologation date?

[bauss]

Interesting, let's hope. It seems a long time since Mac downforce was really up there. And a fancy gearbox, that won't be so copyable. Presumably the idea is to make other teams too late for the homologation date?

I always felt that would be the intention to delay launch, hide some chassis related innovation.

[femi]

you mean

That is in the article written by Edd Straw - I wonder who he is. He claims that the team are not running the MP4-26 because they don't want to give rivals an early glimpse of its aggressive machine and also to maximise aerodynamic development time.

[David1976]

Interesting, let's hope. It seems a long time since Mac downforce was really up there. And a fancy gearbox, that won't be so copyable. Presumably the idea is to make other teams too late for the homologation date?

Here's hoping. It has been years since McLaren have had the best car. As long as it is competitive for pole from the first race I will be very optimistic for Lewis making claim for a second title.

[ashnathan]

That is in the article written by Edd Straw - I wonder who he is. He claims that the team are not running the MP4-26 because they don't want to give rivals an early glimpse of its aggressive machine and also to maximise aerodynamic development time.

That's what I've thought from the start, they want to keep their car under wraps so they can hold their advantage longer (if of course they hold an advantage) but if the car starts out with as much downforce as the 25 then that is HUGE considering there is no double diffuser anymore, i hope the back of the car looks real aggressive the mclarens of late have looked big and chunky i want sleek and stream lined!..but more importantly FAST and DOMINANT!

[Boxerevo]

you mean

as much downforce is decent news, considering there is no DDD. Only problem is if the good folk at Ferrari or Red Bull find even more DF

Truth.

The problem is that i am desperate for a awesome car.

[Crafty]

I wonder if aggressively packed gearbox means pullrod suspension, given that the mounts come off the gearbox case ? Maybe they've changed away from the "norm" with regards to the gearbox to facilitate the suspension ?

[bauss]

I wonder if aggressively packed gearbox means pullrod suspension, given that the mounts come off the gearbox case ? Maybe they've changed away from the "norm" with regards to the gearbox to facilitate the suspension ?

I'm pretty damn sure they are using pullrod. I think all the big boys will be using pullrod...not to will be foolhardy.

Edited by bauss, 13 January 2011 - 10:23.

[femi]

It is also reported that they would use the 1st test (using the interim car) to do long runs, looking @ tyre degradation after adapting the old car weight distribution and df of the new car. If one can simulate the aero map, you can get an aerodynamic set-u that makes the tyres last longer. This is valuable because then, you can then go for performace and not waste time on long runs when the new car starts testing.

It is also mentioned that Mclaren has the best tyre modelling facility hence the change to Pirelli should make them very strong in this department as well.

[moorsey]

That's what I've thought from the start, they want to keep their car under wraps so they can hold their advantage longer (if of course they hold an advantage) but if the car starts out with as much downforce as the 25 then that is HUGE considering there is no double diffuser anymore, i hope the back of the car looks real aggressive the mclarens of late have looked big and chunky i want sleek and stream lined!..but more importantly FAST and DOMINANT!

Yes 'd settle for that also.
It is going to be tough watching the first test and still not knowing how it relates to the new car.

[wrexter]

Great article just came up on f1.com regarding McLaren and their decision to Launch after test.

I am feeling mighty positive lads.

http://www.formula1....11/1/11636.html

[bauss]

MW always talks a good game... sounds like this time last year when they felt they had a good car with decent innovations. Till RedBull came with their EBD n flexiwings asisted rocketship.

So it seems they are confident we will have a decent car, with some innovations, we just have to hope others havent found better innovations.
An equal fastest car and Id be satisfied, our drivers will do the rest.

[femi]

That's what I've thought from the start, they want to keep their car under wraps so they can hold their advantage longer (if of course they hold an advantage) but if the car starts out with as much downforce as the 25 then that is HUGE considering there is no double diffuser anymore, i hope the back of the car looks real aggressive the mclarens of late have looked big and chunky i want sleek and stream lined!..but more importantly FAST and DOMINANT!

If indeed they are keeping the car away from competitors sight until the second test, it must mean Mr.Pat Fry doesn't know that much about the MP4-26.

[maverick69]

I dont believe anything EVER had to do with how low they could run their wings.

It was a major contributer of the performance advantage enjoyed by Red Bull and to a degree, Ferrari.

Edited by maverick69, 13 January 2011 - 11:49.

[maverick69]

In new issue of Autosport: sources from the team say McLaren is hopeful that MP4-26 will have as much downforce as MP4-25 already at its track debut (ridiculous really, I guess teams would recover all downforce even after removing front and rear wings in a few years of developement ) and the thing team wants to hide for 9 more days by delaying launch is agressively-packaged gearbox.

Could this be a key component of the alleged "alternative" to the DDD?

[Bonaventura]

MW always talks a good game... sounds like this time last year when they felt they had a good car with decent innovations. Till RedBull came with their EBD n flexiwings asisted rocketship.

So it seems they are confident we will have a decent car, with some innovations, we just have to hope others havent found better innovations.
An equal fastest car and Id be satisfied, our drivers will do the rest.

This sounds all very nice (Whitmarsh & McLaren)
but it'll be much nicer when the talk is done on the track

[femi]

This sounds all very nice (Whitmarsh & McLaren)
but it'll be much nicer when the talk is done on the track

The articles suggested the Mclaren releases were done to calm frayed fans nerves.
Now let's wait to see what turns up at the tracks.

[bauss]

If indeed they are keeping the car away from competitors sight until the second test, it must mean Mr.Pat Fry doesn't know that much about the MP4-26.

I doubt he does, he left June or so didnt he.... what he will know alot about is all the KERS stuff. I agree with some previous poster who said on paper, Ferrari should be the slight favorites.

[bonjon1979a]

If they have got something that they fear will be copied it makes sense to wait until the next test to put it on the track. At the launch they can control the images of the car, once it gets to the track everyone's going to be sticking cameras into every nook and cranny to have a look.

[ArtShelley]

Excellent? That is relative. The MP4-25 wasn't excellent compared to the other two or that specific top team.

A car must be excellent and awesome compared to the whole field.

It's stupid to say, if Red Bull (and Ferrari, because it had better pace than McLaren on many tracks) would have been excluded or would have been mediocre, then McLaren would have been excellent and awesome.

MP4-24 was a better car in the second half of 2009 than the 25 through big parts of the whole 2010 season.

MP4-25 = Unfulfilled Promise = Unlocked Potential

We would be crowing about how awesome the 25 was, if it would have been as good or better than RB6 and every other car. The RB6 was awesome in 2010. Case closed.

Please read my post in the context of yours. That is, where you said "The car looked radical and freaking long, I don't recall too much optimism for it in general."

My point being that you are precisely ignoring relativity when you make that statement. To illustrate my point, you could look at this year's car and be filled with unbridled optimism. However the car, as excellent as it is, may be a second slower than the RB7.

So this season when you view the car, what will you base your feelings on?

[ZooL]

The problem with these special 1 trick innovations is they spend too long focussing on getting it to work they forget the rest of the car.

Take the 2010 pre-season tests, every test they were messing with bird cages to getting the f-duct synchronised properly.

[ArtShelley]

Not true. The MP4-25 'seemed' to be 3rd fastest when the season started, too, remember? Cuz everybody was hailing Mclaren's development prowess when they started to perform well at places like Montreal and whatnot.

In fact, I honestly dont believe much anything changed all year. Yes, there were blips where Mclaren and Ferrari temporarily fell behind when trying to focus on important developments like the f-duct and the EBD, but if you look how the season started and how it ended, things pretty much remained the same.

Once again, the fallacy of trying to relegate either Mclaren or Ferrari to 2nd/3rd best rests in the fact that they were very different cars and were inevitably going to perform differently on different sorts of tracks, which makes it sometimes appear that one team has moved forward or back, but in reality, its all just track-dependent performance variables that make it seem this way.

I dont believe anything EVER had to do with how low they could run their wings.

I don't disagree with your first sentence - that the 25 was 3rd fastest when the season started. But my previous post never said otherwise. I made a general statement applying to a season that I'd split in two to keep it simple. Of course we can split the season up into far more segments and see how the cars performed. Or even race by race. As you said, the Ferrari started the season off with a bang with a win in the first race, but it rarely delivered on its promise in the first half of the season.

The McLaren didn't start not end the season with on a positive note, however there were a few tracks where it was extremely competitive.

I don't agree with you that nothing changed all season. Yes for McLaren nothing much changed, except that their f-duct advantage was whittled away through the season as the other teams started implementing it themselves. But McLaren continued having problems with their stiff chassis. Ferrari however was a different story. Whereas in the first half of the season, it was Lewis in the 25 pushing hard and staying close to the RB6, in the second half it was Alonso in the F10. There was a point in the season when Ferrari's front wing started running almost quite as low as the RB6. Ferrari had figured out Newey's trump card. However the rest of the F10's aero wasn't designed around the front as cohesively as the RB6, so it was still slightly slower. But with the front wing closer to the ground, the Ferrari ran much closer to the RB6 thereafter.

You may not believe it, but the fact that both Whitmarsh and Brawn, neither of them mugs were ultra-focused on trying to get the damn thing banned whilst secretly beavering away trying to figure it out themselves speaks volumes on how much performance advantage it gives. Besides, it's simple aerodynamic theory that the efficiency of a foil goes up my magnitudes for every millimetre reduction in ground clearance.

Edited by ArtShelley, 13 January 2011 - 12:53.

[Anomnader]

Agree the lower the wing is able to run is widely acknowledged about one of the fastest upgrades you can have, don't really see how Sean can say its important.

[gaston_foix]

MW always talks a good game... sounds like this time last year when they felt they had a good car with decent innovations. Till RedBull came with their EBD n flexiwings asisted rocketship.

So it seems they are confident we will have a decent car, with some innovations, we just have to hope others havent found better innovations.
An equal fastest car and Id be satisfied, our drivers will do the rest.

I find what MW say a total ballsh$t. I mean 10 days delay for others to see what "brilliant innovations " will Mclaren have is nothing. Ferrari saw RedBull EBD in tests and they manage to have their own EBD after half of season. 10 days is nothing. They are not ready with the car and they want to make us believe this story. Sorry MW but try again.

[hunnylander]

Please read my post in the context of yours. That is, where you said "The car looked radical and freaking long, I don't recall too much optimism for it in general."

My point being that you are precisely ignoring relativity when you make that statement. To illustrate my point, you could look at this year's car and be filled with unbridled optimism. However the car, as excellent as it is, may be a second slower than the RB7.

So this season when you view the car, what will you base your feelings on?

When I first saw the 25 on that side shot studio image 'it looked radical and freaking long', but I didn't decide this is good or bad then.

When I followed the car on test, as I said, even its best times looked 'smell of the lamp'. Drivers pushed hard with lowish fuel to achieve top times. And from the test images I concluded it has the longest wheelbase, and I didn't declared this observation as a great feature of the car, more of which can be a source for problems.

My anticipation for the 26 is better, even without looking at it. It's just a gut feeling.

And just because a car looks very nice or radical doesn't mean I consider it fast.

[hunnylander]

I find what MW say a total ballsh$t. I mean 10 days delay for others to see what "brilliant innovations " will Mclaren have is nothing. Ferrari saw RedBull EBD in tests and they manage to have their own EBD after half of season. 10 days is nothing. They are not ready with the car and they want to make us believe this story. Sorry MW but try again.

You don't know what they wanna hide and how fast is it copyable. And it might relate to homologation probably, so you can copy it only pre-season.

[Yorkie]

Here's hoping. It has been years since McLaren have had the best car. As long as it is competitive for pole from the first race I will be very optimistic for Lewis making claim for a second title.

2005

MW always talks a good game... sounds like this time last year when they felt they had a good car with decent innovations. Till RedBull came with their EBD n flexiwings asisted rocketship.

So it seems they are confident we will have a decent car, with some innovations, we just have to hope others havent found better innovations.
An equal fastest car and Id be satisfied, our drivers will do the rest.

Amen to that

[ArtShelley]

When I first saw the 25 on that side shot studio image 'it looked radical and freaking long', but I didn't decide this is good or bad then.

When I followed the car on test, as I said, even its best times looked 'smell of the lamp'. Drivers pushed hard with lowish fuel to achieve top times. And from the test images I concluded it has the longest wheelbase, and I didn't declared this observation as a great feature of the car, more of which can be a source for problems.

My anticipation for the 26 is better, even without looking at it. It's just a gut feeling.

And just because a car looks very nice or radical doesn't mean I consider it fast.

Oh ok, no problems. Though I still don't understand the purpose of you saying "I don't recall much optimism", because it does tend to imply that you were judging the car without comparing its performance against others.

[gaston_foix]

You don't know what they wanna hide and how fast is it copyable. And it might relate to homologation probably, so you can copy it only pre-season.;)

No matter it is... 10 days delay for others to copy something will not help them more that 3 days of full tests on track.

Edited by gaston_foix, 13 January 2011 - 13:10.

[undersquare]

No matter it is... 10 days delay for others to copy something will not help them more that 3 days of full tests on track.

Maybe someone should tell them

[gaston_foix]

Maybe someone should tell them

I think you are ironical here, but no matter how you said that, everybody is pushing hard to be ready for the Valencia test, even Newey so I think it's very important to have as soon as possible a better understanding how the new cars works on this new tyres with the new rules. Something is fishy, they are not ready. Just IMO.

[hunnylander]

No matter it is... 10 days delay for others to copy something will not help them more that 3 days of full tests on track.

Even 1 day can decide you'll be able to make your new design for the homologation deadline or not.

And it's not the complete copying of a feature, just to redesign something homologated for the later completing of the full feature.

Edited by hunnylander, 13 January 2011 - 13:21.

[Owen]

The way this 'delay' is being handled by MWhitmarsh I'm now expecting something really rather radical when it comes to the final car.
As to whether the 'delay' is deliberate or being forced upon them, I wouldn't like to say but I suspect it's deliberate, just a gut feel from my highly biased view.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/88891

[gaston_foix]

Even 1 day can decide you'll be able to make your new design for the homologation deadline or not.

And it's not the complete copying of a feature, just to redesign something homologated for the later completing of the full feature.

Last year they brought F-Duct and they came at Valencie even it was a new feature.
When is the homologation deadline date?

[ArtShelley]

When I first saw the 25 on that side shot studio image 'it looked radical and freaking long', but I didn't decide this is good or bad then.

When I followed the car on test, as I said, even its best times looked 'smell of the lamp'. Drivers pushed hard with lowish fuel to achieve top times. And from the test images I concluded it has the longest wheelbase, and I didn't declared this observation as a great feature of the car, more of which can be a source for problems.

My anticipation for the 26 is better, even without looking at it. It's just a gut feeling.

And just because a car looks very nice or radical doesn't mean I consider it fast.

You know, out of curiosity, I went back and looked at your posts when the MP4-25 was launched. I'm surprised you don't recall your optimism.

Predator beast!

If it'll be as fast as aggressive it looks, it'll be the MP4/4 V2.

Image caption: Her Majesty The Silver Beast of Celerity™, a.k.a. the Silverest Predator of Fastestness and Awesomeness™, right there, being the fastest even standing still.

Interesting indeed. Mclaren are going to lack downforce again this year?

What leads you to that question? Smaller sidepods are good thing.

You sounded quite positive about the car, until testing when it was possible to compare it properly. You're sounding positive about this year too and relying on your gut. I think that's called hope. Let's hope you're right!

[David1976]

I am pretty sure McLaren know what they ar edoing with the car release date.

If they are hiding something, the release date will be calculated.

If they have something special I expect massive protests from Ferrari to uncle Jean.

[rattyboy]

I wonder if they may have two packages and want to wait to see what RB....ect are doing before deciding the best one to use.

[MinT]

Well they are not going to see race spec cars at the first test..lots of stuff to be bolted on during the final 2 tests as per normal I would imagine...