34 replies to this topic

[max106]

Hi. i`d like to know, if Bill Ivy trained with a 500 cm³-Jawa in 1969 in the folling races?

GP Spain, Jarama 350 - # 79
500 - ?

GP Dtld, Hockenheim 350 - # 304
500 - trained ? Foto with #6 ??????, official races # 6 = Jack Findlay

GP Dutch, Assen 350 - # 3
500 - ?

GP GDR, Sachsenring 350 - # 61, 12.07.1969 trained and killed crash
500 - # 33 trained

I`m looking forward hearing from you.
Thanks for you help in advence !

[LittleChris]

Hello Max106.

Your post would be better off in the Motorcycle part of TNF where i'm sure you'll get a quick answer.

Pehaps Twinny could move it ?

Chris

[john winfield]

Sorry, can't help but, just before you go; Formula 2, Thruxton, April 1969 - Bill Ivy's performance on four wheels was astonishing. At first I thought the commentator had muddled up the grid positions. I wonder what Bill might have achieved but for the seized engine later that year.

Edited by john winfield, 28 October 2010 - 22:08.

[Quixotic]

Sorry, can't help but, just before you go; Formula 2, Thruxton, April 1969 - Bill Ivy's performance on four wheels was astonishing. At first I thought the commentator had muddled up the grid positions. I wonder what Bill might have achieved but for the seized engine later that year.

Bill Ivy rode Jawa bikes of various capacities in 69.

so it would not be a surprise to me if he did.

[GD66]

Don't think so, Quix. Ivy only rode the troublesome 350 as a source of income to fund his foray into F2, and I think only Franta Stastny rode the 250 Jawa that year. Ivy, Stastny, and Bocek had their hands full trying to keep the 350 going, although it was quick when running (Ivy's big go with Ago at Assen until the Jawa dropped onto 3 cylinders). After Ivy was killed in practice at the Sachsenring, Jack Findlay took over the ride, but struggled and crashed as well. Bocek was also killed in the Czech GP on the 350 Jawa. With all the grief Jawa had trying to sort out the 350 (later identified as problems with metallurgy) I'm sure they didn't have an experimental 500 running as well, and previous to that their last 500 effort was some years before with an enormous, overweight fourstroke twin. So if Ivy appeared anywhere in a 500 practice, my bet is that it was on a 350, trying for more track time.

Edited by GD66, 29 October 2010 - 09:09.

[Quixotic]

Don't think so, Quix. Ivy only rode the troublesome 350 as a source of income to fund his foray into F2, and I think only Franta Stastny rode the 250 Jawa that year. Ivy, Stastny, and Bocek had their hands full trying to keep the 350 going, although it was quick when running (Ivy's big go with Ago at Assen until the Jawa dropped onto 3 cylinders). After Ivy was killed in practice at the Sachsenring, Jack Findlay took over the ride, but struggled and crashed as well. Bocek was also killed in the Czech GP on the 350 Jawa. With all the grief Jawa had trying to sort out the 350 (later identified as problems with metallurgy) I'm sure they didn't have an experimental 500 running as well, and previous to that their last 500 effort was some years before with an enormous, overweight fourstroke twin. So if Ivy appeared anywhere in a 500 practice, my bet is that it was on a 350, trying for more track time.

I remember reading that he was bending down trying to feel which of the cylinders was not firing when it seized. not a fast accident. but fatal

[GD66]

Needless as well. Poxy pudding-basin helmet came off apparently. What was strange is that before leaving home, Bill wrote out a will, put his affairs in order and tidied his flat. All very sad.

[Rennmax]

Bill Ivy was indeed entered in the 500 cc class at the Sachsenring with # 33, you can see the dark numbers on a bright background, so it's not his 350 class entry

http://www.google.de.../...&tbs=isch:1

I don't think that it was a full blown 500 engine, probably just a 350 motor a bit oversized (like the 354 cc Yamahas a couple of seasons later) and in the hands of Bill it would have been really competitive even in the big class I guess

Edited by Rennmax, 29 October 2010 - 17:33.

[Rennmax]

I remember reading that he was bending down trying to feel which of the cylinders was not firing when it seized. not a fast accident. but fatal

According to the official report made by the race stewards and published in a German mag a couple of years ago, a disintegrated crankshaft bearing of the lower left cylinder caused the engine to seize, so it was not a 'classical' piston seizure

Edited by Rennmax, 29 October 2010 - 20:05.

[philippe7]

Thank you Renn - as I was reading the first posts of this thread I was thinking damn, we have discussed this already with a strange picture of Bill Ivy on a 350 Jawa lookalike but with obviously yellow plates , so thanks for bringing up the pic, I woulndn't have found it without you !

Still, that was the only time I had heard of a suspected 500 version of the 2 stroke 4 , so was it really a bigger engine or, as GD 66 wrote, was Bill maybe entering the same 350 in the 500 class in order to get more practice track time ? The mystery remains....

[Rennmax]

Hi Philippe, in Mick Walker's 'European racing motorcyles' book on page 74 he writes " Bill had also been due to compete in the 500 cc class of the Grand Prix (Sachsenring) on a enlarged version, with a capacity of just over 351 cc.."
Well, it's from a Mick Walker book, so let's take it with a pinch of salt

Edit: IIRC, Bill and Ago were lapping quicker in Assen on their 350 cc bikes than anyone else in the 500 cc class, including Ago himself, so it was probably obvious to have a try in the big class

Edited by Rennmax, 29 October 2010 - 19:51.

[Rennmax]

Pics from Schotten 2010

[exclubracer]

From my hazy memory and as stated by Renn, the Jawa factory didn't have access to high quality metallurgical materials for pistons and crank bearings, for example I read somewhere many years ago that most of their consumables were gleaned from ex-military stocks, not the best source for an air-cooled two-stroke with dubious ignition timing and carburation. Fast when set up in the pits but reliability issues raise their heads as a race progresses...

[rotrax]

From my hazy memory and as stated by Renn, the Jawa factory didn't have access to high quality metallurgical materials for pistons and crank bearings, for example I read somewhere many years ago that most of their consumables were gleaned from ex-military stocks, not the best source for an air-cooled two-stroke with dubious ignition timing and carburation. Fast when set up in the pits but reliability issues raise their heads as a race progresses...

Hi,I have had the privelege of sitting on one of the works JAWA 4 cyl. 2 strokes in the museum at Tynec na Sazavou. I believe it was the one ridden by an Italian-cant remember his name.I was with two Czechs who were high up in JAWA and Motokov,the export agency.They had both been involved in racing and knew a lot about the 2 stroke fours history.Both said -If only we had had the money and the materials to put it right! Bills death was a tragedy.I remember having words with Ivan Rhodes when I turned up vintage racing with a full face helmet-He was not impressed!It was shortly after Bills accident and just after a practice day where I saw another rider wear his chin out on the track using a pudding basin helmet.I must have fancied myself as a bird puller and did not want a rearranged face! I got a Trackstar from Gordon Spices cash and carry in Staines-BRIGHT ORANGE-No wonder Ivan did not like it. When I look back at the riding gear then to now I wonder how we got away with it. In Sport, Rotrax.

Edited by rotrax, 08 November 2010 - 08:54.

[HEMEYLA]

Hi,I have had the privelege of sitting on one of the works JAWA 4 cyl. 2 strokes in the museun at Tynec na Sazavou. I believe it was the one ridden by an Italian-cant remember his name.

Silvio Grassetti.

Edited by HEMEYLA, 07 November 2010 - 11:09.

[Rennmax]

Hi,I have had the privelege of sitting on one of the works JAWA 4 cyl. 2 strokes in the museun at Tynec na Sazavou. I believe it was the one ridden by an Italian-cant remember his name.I was with two Czechs who were high up in JAWA and Motokov,the export agency.They had both been involved in racing and knew a lot about the 2 stroke fours history.Both said -If only we had had the money and the materials to put it right! Bills death was a tragedy.I remember having words with Ivan Rhodes when I turned up vintage racing with a full face helmet-He was not impressed!It was shortly after Bills accident and just after a practice day where I saw another rider wear his chin out on the track using a pudding basin helmet.I must have fancied myself as a bird puller and did not want a rearranged face! I got a Trackstar from Gordon Spices cash and carry in Staines-BRIGHT ORANGE-No wonder Ivan did not like it. When I look back at the riding gear then to now I wonder how we got away with it. In Sport, Rotrax.

Sadly enough, the chest injuries he suffered were also reported to be lethal and, according to the Alan Peck book, the helmet came off during the crash. Wonder why we changed back to the pudding basin after he used a jet style helmet at Hockenheim

Edited by Rennmax, 07 November 2010 - 11:51.

[HEMEYLA]

Bill used that 'jet' helmet in car racing.

[exclubracer]

Silvio Grassetti.

Didn't Jack Findlay also have a ride on the same bike after Silvio?

[GD66]

Yes Mick, see post #5 and the "Continental Circus" movie...;)

Unrelated, but Bob Brown died the same way on the 250 Honda at Solitude, touring back to the pits when the bike chimed in on all pots....bloody tough luck...

Edited by GD66, 08 November 2010 - 09:56.

[Rennmax]

Yes Mick, see post #5 and the "Continental Circus" movie...;)

Unrelated, but Bob Brown died the same way on the 250 Honda at Solitude, touring back to the pits when the bike chimed in on all pots....bloody tough luck...

Jack Findlay took over just one week after the Sachsenring disaster at Brno, but crashed in practice when water leaked from the radiator. Don't think that Grassetti had his first outing for Jawa there too. By the way, Ginger Molloy did ride that bike in '70, at least at the Czecho GP at Brno

Edited by Rennmax, 08 November 2010 - 10:16.

[HEMEYLA]

Didn't Jack Findlay also have a ride on the same bike after Silvio?

Silvio took over the ride from Jack in practice from the 1969 Tsjecho GP, Jack crashed in the first practice lap and broke a collarbone.

The Imola GP Jack had another go on the Jawa 350-4 but crashed in the race without minor injury.

[exclubracer]

Yes Mick, see post #5 and the "Continental Circus" movie...;)

Gotcha Glenn, thanks.

[Russell Burrows]

The four cylinder stroker gets a mention in the first volume of Colin Seeley's generally well researched book. According to this account, factory pilot, Gustav Havel, met his end when traveling to work in the half light of a December morning aboard one of the 350 fours. Apparently, as the street lights went out, he was spat off the Jawa after colliding with a woman pedestrian and died soon afterwards from his head injuries.

This is a more than slightly odd story, isnt it? What was he doing threading his way through the Prague rush hour traffic on that contraption?

Equally bizarrely, CZ factory rider, Malina, is also reported to have killed himself in a 'similar accident' a few years earlier !

Edited by Russell Burrows, 10 November 2010 - 13:54.

[GD66]

There's a Czech roadrace site which indicates Havel may not have been on the 350 four, it says "He died on 31 December 1967 in consequences of injuries which he suffered at a traffic accident when he rode motorcycle 50ccm !"
I imagine the exclamation mark is to register surprise that a GP racer should meet his untimely end on a mere 50. Either way, it's a shame, and I thought Havel made a capable and loyal team-mate to Stastny. The article goes on to mention that Havel finished third in the 1961 350 title, and fifth in 1963, '64 and '66 (all correct).

[rotrax]

The four cylinder stroker gets a mention in the first volume of Colin Seeley's generally well researched book. According to this account, factory pilot, Gustav Havel, met his end when traveling to work in the half light of a December morning aboard one of the 350 fours. Apparently, as the street lights went out, he was spat off the Jawa after colliding with a woman pedestrian and died soon afterwards from his head injuries.

This is a more than slightly odd story, isnt it? What was he doing threading his way through the Prague rush hour traffic on that contraption?

Equally bizarrely, CZ factory rider, Malina, is also reported to have killed himself in a 'similar accident' a few years earlier !

Hi Russell,My mate Mirek in Czech has Gustav Havels DOHC 350 six speed twin from 1959. He knew Havel well and told me he was killed on a street bike. He also thinks that Havel was the better racer. Franta Stastny embraced the Communist system and was a Party member just to get the perks of racing abroad. Havel was less inclined to bend his principles and so did not get to travel so much. I have raced the Havel twin several times and it is a real goer. Its better than me, but thats not difficult. Another Czech racer who did good in later years was "Crazy Frank" Mrazek. He escaped the country and got to Canada. After almost being killed on an air cooled Yamaha TD1C 250 he became AMA Superbike Champion and BOT champion. There is a great book about him,which mentions Havels death, called "A Passion Observed" by George Jonas. I must try and find out if Gustav Havel was related to Vaclav Havel, the President. They both came from Ostrava in the Moravian Province. In Sport, Rotrax.

[Russell Burrows]

Yes chaps, it does seem that Seeley's otherwise impressive research is more than a bit awry on this.

[GD66]

So is George Jonas, Frank Mrazek was certainly never AMA or even Canadian Superbike champ. I think I remember him banging round on the TD1C though, a contemporary of Frank Camilleri and Andy Lascoux if I recall.

Colin Seeley's most likely just passing on a yarn from the time, accurate info from eastern Europe in those days was a bit thin on the ground...

Edited by GD66, 12 November 2010 - 08:12.

[rotrax]

So is George Jonas, Frank Mrazek was certainly never AMA or even Canadian Superbike champ. I think I remember him banging round on the TD1C though, a contemporary of Frank Camilleri and Andy Lascoux if I recall.

Colin Seeley's most likely just passing on a yarn from the time, accurate info from eastern Europe in those days was a bit thin on the ground...

Thanks, good info. The late Titch Allen was always fastidious about getting facts right as, as in these couple of instances, the published word becomes gospel,even when inncorect.In Sport, Rotrax.

[GD66]

Elegantly phrased, mate. I'll be interested to hear the outcome of your Vaclav Havel enquiry, I wondered the same thing while looking up Gustav's details.
Any pics of your gallop on the dohc twin ? They used to rev quite freely on the old TT records, must have gone quite well. Lucky you...

[philippe7]

Since we're on the topic of Czech craftmanship....a mystery pic that was posted on the original nostalgia thread 5 years ago (!) of the 4-stroke rival of the 350 Jawa , the 350 V4 CZ seen here ridden at the 1971 Brno GP by Bohumil Stasa

and below a picture of the naked bike which was posted at the time by T54 - pic has now gone but clever me has saved all of the original thread on my hard drive

[exclubracer]

Since we're on the topic of Czech craftmanship....a mystery pic that was posted on the original nostalgia thread 5 years ago (!) of the 4-stroke rival of the 350 Jawa , the 350 V4 CZ seen here ridden at the 1971 Brno GP by Bohumil Stasa




and below a picture of the naked bike which was posted at the time by T54 - pic has now gone but clever me has saved all of the original thread on my hard drive

That looks nice

CofG would be a bit high perhaps?

[philippe7]

The Imola GP Jack had another go on the Jawa 350-4 but crashed in the race without minor injury.

Yes, and this is well documented in the "continental circus" movie, with a moving scene of Nanou collecting a badly sore and bruised Jack from the Imola hospital....a

Silvio Grassetti was in fact leading the Imola race on the second 350 Jawa after Jack's fall, but the story goes that he was so enthusiastic at the prospect of winning his first Grand Prix that he started waving to the crowd in the last ( or one of the last...) lap of the race and went on an off-track excursion which enabled Phil Read, on a one-off world championship appearance on his private Yamaha, to sneak past and relegate Silvio to second.... Grassetti had to wait for the next ( and last ) race of the season at Opatija to finally score his ( and the 350 Jawa's ) first Grand Prix win.

Edited by philippe7, 12 November 2010 - 22:08.

[LittleChris]

[quote name='philippe7' date='Nov 12 2010, 23:07' post='4708376']

Silvio Grassetti was in fact leading the Imola race on the second 350 Jawa after Jack's fall, but the story goes that he was so enthusiastic at the prospect of winning his first Grand Prix that he started waving to the crowd in the last ( or one of the last...) lap of the race and went on an off-track excursion which enabled Phil Read, on a one-off world championship appearance on his private Yamaha, to sneak past and relegate Silvio to second....
[/quote/]

So predating Nigel Mansell, for assuming you can win before crossing the finish line, by several years

[rotrax]

Elegantly phrased, mate. I'll be interested to hear the outcome of your Vaclav Havel enquiry, I wondered the same thing while looking up Gustav's details.
Any pics of your gallop on the dohc twin ? They used to rev quite freely on the old TT records, must have gone quite well. Lucky you...

Hi GD66, I do have a couple of shots of me on the Havel twin at Brands, just before a big off .The left side exhaust broke at the head and the pipe fell down and got under the back wheel. Normaly the fairing would have caught it, but the owner had carried about six bikes to the U.K. for a big Vintage Rally and left the fairing in Czech.I'LLtry to get them scanned and up on this post. In Sport, Rotrax.

[johnyC]

Yes, and this is well documented in the "continental circus" movie, with a moving scene of Nanou collecting a badly sore and bruised Jack from the Imola hospital....a

Silvio Grassetti was in fact leading the Imola race on the second 350 Jawa after Jack's fall, but the story goes that he was so enthusiastic at the prospect of winning his first Grand Prix that he started waving to the crowd in the last ( or one of the last...) lap of the race and went on an off-track excursion which enabled Phil Read, on a one-off world championship appearance on his private Yamaha, to sneak past and relegate Silvio to second.... Grassetti had to wait for the next ( and last ) race of the season at Opatija to finally score his ( and the 350 Jawa's ) first Grand Prix win.

phillippe,

here's Silvio waving to the mechanic before the start:


and Jack wheeling his bike onto the grid, in the nick of time:


here's a recent video of a 250 twin and the 350 v4 being warmed up at Ospedaletti Jawa 250twin / 350 v4

Edited by johnyC, 22 November 2010 - 15:42.